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post #10321 of 12164 Old 02-01-2020, 07:41 PM
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Need a help

Just add 2 rear sub and use minidsp HD to manage the front and rear using minidsp for the first time due no more Chanel in the altitude

Do I need first to run the optimizer and re measure again first in the altitude?

Any help how to use REW in the dsp


Thx


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post #10322 of 12164 Old 02-01-2020, 08:52 PM
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Hello, everyone.
After updating to 4.2.15 DTS X pro firmware.
I check DTS upmix page on my AL32.
Neural X upmixer bypass is ticked as my attached photo.
If I would like to use Auto(Dolby surround upmix for Dolby digital and Dolby TrueHD and Neural X for DTS and DTS HD and maybe DTS X),
Neural X upmixer bypass should be on(ticked correct) or off?

Thank you for your help.
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post #10323 of 12164 Old 02-01-2020, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
Need a help

Just add 2 rear sub and use minidsp HD to manage the front and rear using minidsp for the first time due no more Chanel in the altitude

Do I need first to run the optimizer and re measure again first in the altitude?

Any help how to use REW in the dsp
Time-align and optimize the subs on the miniDSP prior to re running Room Optimizer.

Here is a start:

https://www.minidsp.com/support/comm...by-austinjerry

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...k-through.html

https://www.minidsp.com/applications...-multiple-subs

https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer...tml/index.html
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post #10324 of 12164 Old 02-01-2020, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Not a direct match.

Set up
Lh/Rh
Ltm/Rtm
Lhr/Rhr

Wides are the same
Ls/Rs (Atmos) = Lss/Rss (DTS:X/DTS)

Edit:
Sorry for the double post, the forum-system crashed

So top front becomes Lh/Rh and top rear -> Lhr/Rhr?


Wide is Lw isn't it? Not Ls.



Thanks

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post #10325 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
So top front becomes Lh/Rh and top rear -> Lhr/Rhr?


Wide is Lw isn't it? Not Ls.



Thanks
Wide = Lw/Rw
Surround = Lss/Rss

Ltf/Rtf = Lh/Rh
Ltr/Rtr = Lhr/Rhr

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post #10326 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 02:11 PM
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Everybody upgraded to v4.2.15 now ?
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post #10327 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Everybody upgraded to v4.2.15 now ?
Yes, but I only had time to test one 5.1 concert BD last night. My first impression of Neural:X after A/Bing vs. my preset limited to 7.1.4 was that the sound was improved marginally but audibly. The soundstage was less front-focused and more sound was obvious immediately behind me (Ls) and behind and above me. This is to be expected with separate extraction to Lss/Rss and Ls/Rs, as well as Ltm/Rtm, I suppose.

Next up will be the Super Bowl with the Neural:X upmix in this DTS:X Pro software release...

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post #10328 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Next up will be the Super Bowl in DTS:X Pro...
DTS:X for Super Bowl, how ? I only have access to this via streaming from my Apple TV 4K - no DTS:X there.

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post #10329 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
DTS:X for Super Bowl, how ? I only have access to this via streaming from my Apple TV 4K - no DTS:X there.
I meant with Neural:x as now available in the DTS:X Pro release, what else?

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post #10330 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
I meant with Neural:x as now available in the DTS:X Pro release, what else?
I thought you had started with DTS:X on live TV in the US... that would be something

Edit:
I still feel the Dolby Surround upmix is way better on 2 channel material than Neural:X (currently watching Super Bowl myself).

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post #10331 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Yes, but I only had time to test one 5.1 concert BD last night. My first impression of Neural:X after A/Bing vs. my preset limited to 7.1.4 was that the sound was improved marginally but audibly. The soundstage was less front-focused and more sound was obvious immediately behind me (Ls) and behind and above me. This is to be expected with separate extraction to Lss/Rss and Ls/Rs, as well as Ltm/Rtm, I suppose.

Next up will be the Super Bowl with the Neural:X upmix in this DTS:X Pro software release...
My impression is not Good....
Book of Eli - watched (the town shoot out with Gary Oldham and Denzel) many times before - the front stage on DTS Pro Nueral X was gone .......(muffled) - surround was awesome but if I have to choose between front stage and sorround I will choose front stage all day long.
Watched terminator salvation on K HDR DTS HD to Nueral X - MEHHH
Watched Terminator Dark Fate ATMOS so refined so polished (so shiny so chrome :-) ).
Like Adam Peltz told me - the DTS stream is still 7.1.4 - all PRO does is to pump it to 28 speakers.
Quality versus Quantity
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post #10332 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 06:20 PM
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Spoiler!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
My impression is not Good....
Book of Eli - watched (the town shoot out with Gary Oldham and Denzel) many times before - the front stage on DTS Pro Nueral X was gone .......(muffled) - surround was awesome but if I have to choose between front stage and sorround I will choose front stage all day long.
Watched terminator salvation on K HDR DTS HD to Nueral X - MEHHH
Watched Terminator Dark Fate ATMOS so refined so polished (so shiny so chrome :-) ).
Like Adam Peltz told me - the DTS stream is still 7.1.4 - all PRO does is to pump it to 28 speakers.
Quality versus Quantity
Ash, I appreciate your opinion/observation. Would you mind sharing your Dts Decoder Settings? Also, I don't see that you have tried any Dts:X 7.1.4 titles.
Spoiler!
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post #10333 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post


Ash, I appreciate your opinion/observation. Would you mind sharing your Dts Decoder Settings? Also, I don't see that you have tried any Dts:X 7.1.4 titles.
Yes I have Whiskey Foxtrot which is DTS X... which I tried ... and a few more which I did not yet.
Will post settings (super bowl time for now)
Again just pushing 7.1.4 into 30 speakers .... versus a discrete ATMOS setup...
I am sure more will be reporting but sdrucker is probably one of the best feedback and he is reporting similar
For now I am glad I did not buy Ford Versus Ferrari on K (DTS) and am waiting on the ATMOS Disc.
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Last edited by Ash Sharma; 02-02-2020 at 06:37 PM.
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post #10334 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Yes I have Whiskey Foxtrot which is DTS X... which I tried ... and a few more which I did not yet.
Will post settings (super bowl time for now)
Again just pushing 7.1.4 into 30 speakers .... versus a discrete ATMOS setup...
I am sure more will be reporting but sdrucker is probably one of the best feedback and he is reporting similar
For now I am glad I did not buy Ford Versus Ferrari on K (DTS) and am waiting on the ATMOS Disc.
Ash - so far I’ve only watched one concert disc and the Super Bowl with the Neural:X upmixer.

Conceptually you are exactly right that 7.1.4 (or 5.1, 7.1, or two-channel) is getting pushed into more speakers. But while I called the change to >11 speakers “marginal”, that’s different than “not good”. On my system, the music DTS-MA 5.1 mix was slightly better listening with more use of Neural:X than with the 11 channel limit, as I noted. As for the Super Bowl, on my Comcast Xfinity app for Roku, it’s two channel native. I’m not impressed with Neural:X for making the front stage more diffuse. But none of the upmixers are doing much to expand the stage immersively for that broadcast...

EDIT: just heard the Audi commercial parody of Frozen’s “Let It Go”. The siren while the driver was stuck in traffic panned nicely from front to back subtly, and the vocal had more presence in the room with some surround ambience for the music. The actual game is more of a “meh”. Content will drive our impressions, I think, as usual.

See me after I play more DTS:X native mixes and a 5.1 movie or three.

As for Atmos, in my opinion there is nothing out there that tops a good use of object passthrough in a higher channel count system at the moment, but that’s stating the obvious in our user experience .
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post #10335 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Yes I have Whiskey Foxtrot which is DTS X... which I tried ... and a few more which I did not yet.
Will post settings (super bowl time for now)
Again just pushing 7.1.4 into 30 speakers .... versus a discrete ATMOS setup...
I am sure more will be reporting but sdrucker is probably one of the best feedback and he is reporting similar
For now I am glad I did not buy Ford Versus Ferrari on K (DTS) and am waiting on the ATMOS Disc.
I downloaded the new update but haven’t done DTS speaker assignments yet. Maybe I’ll wait. See what Adam does.

I have Ford vs Ferrari on K. Maybe I’ll pick up the disc and A/B test.

I salute our Immersion professionals: Curt Hoyt to which I am very thankful for positioning my JBL loudspeakers correctly to achieve a very tight bubble and the greatly missed Peter CINERAMAX whose fearless R&D in PRO-RIBBON cinemas, curation of most immersive Kaleidescape scripts and forging ahead to 55 loudspeaker Crystal Led Cinemas will pave the road ahead. And Adam Pelz for bringing the system to jawdropping life!
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post #10336 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 08:58 PM
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I watched the Super Bowl (2 channel via YouTube TV) and tried both Neural:X and Dolby. Dolby won. Felt more of the crowd noise around me.
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post #10337 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 10:21 PM
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Please keep in mind that Neural X upmixing is not transformed by this Pro update. If you didn't like what Neural X did with 2.0 before (and I didn't), your opinion will not be changed. 2.0 → 30.2 is a marketing bullet point. Effective 2.0 → 30.2 upmixing is simply unrealistic. IME Neural X does best with ≥ 7.1 tracks (not even 5.1). Neural X is an extension of Neo X.

I am able to reverse-engineer Neo X (which also applies to Neural X) with REW (ASIO4ALL HDMI 7.1). With Neo/Neural X in-phase audio simultaneously in both Front L/R and Side-Surround L/R is routed to Wide L/R (center extraction); in both Front L/R and Rear Surround L/R is routed to Front Height L/R.

I'm not sure how 5.1 is upmixed via Neural X but it should be inferior to 7.1 and ultimately 7.1.4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Yes I have Whiskey Foxtrot which is DTS X... which I tried ... and a few more which I did not yet.

Will post settings (super bowl time for now)

Again just pushing 7.1.4 into 30 speakers .... versus a discrete ATMOS setup...
Ash, you should wait for discrete/object-based Dts tracks/trailers if you are trying to compare head-to-head vs Atmos. Perhaps comparing Neural X upmix of 7.1 tracks vs Dolby Surround makes more sense.

Unfortunately the Book of Eli and Terminator Salvation are both 5.1 tracks. Regardless, the front staging should not be affected (other than the center-extract to Wides). Something may be amiss with your setup?

Is anybody observing a change in the front stating with ≥5.1 tracks?
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post #10338 of 12164 Old 02-02-2020, 11:07 PM
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Watched parts of Avatar which is 5.1. Dialogue much harder to make out in Neural:X. Have to use a compressor on the center channel to compensate. Also, since the update, tone of the audio seems to have changed a bit with Neural:X. Have to re-voice the center channel to compensate.
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post #10339 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
Watched parts of Avatar which is 5.1. Dialogue much harder to make out in Neural:X.
That doesn't necessarily mean the front stage is affected. Maybe the up-mixing to additional speakers creates a sound field that partly obscures the center channel sound. Did you check the level meters of LCR with and without Neural:X activated?

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post #10340 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 03:59 AM
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Very helpful mark thx


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I know this is a bit off topic, but I had the Super Bowl on two TV’s with the DirecTV 4K broadcast. One TV was the Sony 65” Z9B and the other a 75” Z9D with HDR: I was blown away with the improvements HDR provided. Now I want to upgrade all of the other TVs in my house 😂
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post #10342 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 07:58 AM
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3D mapping: do you use it? for all speakers? Excluding the front stage? Other?

I notice that with Neural:X, when 3D mapping is on, 4 of my speakers (out of 7.3.14) 'shut off' - Lfh & Rfh and Lrh & Rrh.
When mapping is turned off, these four 'join the fun' and light up as well.

I assume it's because their placement isn't optimal (though it is pretty close to) so their respective channels are sent elsewhere? Maybe it means my measurements with the magic-mic were not precise enough?


***edit*** when I keep 3D mapping on, but disable mapping for the front speakers only, 3 of the 4 speakers engage again, with only Rrh remaining silent (-Inf). I have no idea how to interpret this...
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Last edited by ShaharT; 02-03-2020 at 08:32 AM.
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post #10343 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
3D mapping: do you use it? for all speakers? Excluding the front stage? Other?

I notice that with Neural:X, when 3D mapping is on, 4 of my speakers (out of 7.3.14) 'shut off' - Lfh & Rfh and Lrh & Rrh.
When mapping is turned off, these four 'join the fun' and light up as well.

I assume it's because their placement isn't optimal (though it is pretty close to) so their respective channels are sent elsewhere? Maybe it means my measurements with the magic-mic were not precise enough?
I have disabled 3D mapping for front speakers; it is enabled for the rest. Remapping is doing something not optimal for the sound in my setup (front), it might not be a problem after I do a recalibration - missing the motivation/time at the moment
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post #10344 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 08:18 AM
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So, is the DTS update a bust? Or only if remapping is engaged?

I salute our Immersion professionals: Curt Hoyt to which I am very thankful for positioning my JBL loudspeakers correctly to achieve a very tight bubble and the greatly missed Peter CINERAMAX whose fearless R&D in PRO-RIBBON cinemas, curation of most immersive Kaleidescape scripts and forging ahead to 55 loudspeaker Crystal Led Cinemas will pave the road ahead. And Adam Pelz for bringing the system to jawdropping life!
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post #10345 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
So, is the DTS update a bust? Or only if remapping is engaged?
DTS:X Pro works perfect here (with or without remapping and with or without Neural:X upmix for DTS:X material).
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post #10346 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
3D mapping: do you use it? for all speakers? Excluding the front stage? Other?

I notice that with Neural:X, when 3D mapping is on, 4 of my speakers (out of 7.3.14) 'shut off' - Lfh & Rfh and Lrh & Rrh.
When mapping is turned off, these four 'join the fun' and light up as well.

I assume it's because their placement isn't optimal (though it is pretty close to) so their respective channels are sent elsewhere? Maybe it means my measurements with the magic-mic were not precise enough?


***edit*** when I keep 3D mapping on, but disable mapping for the front speakers only, 3 of the 4 speakers engage again, with only Rrh remaining silent (-Inf). I have no idea how to interpret this...
Can you do a screenshot of the summary, showing elevation and azimuth for your speakers? Also, I take it that you're running physical height speakers rather than Dolby enabled upfiring speakers?

I'm assuming that you have "Autoswitch" engaged so that the speaker layout confirms with the format for the desired decoder.
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post #10347 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 09:00 AM
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I’m having a similar issue with remapping engaged. Basic question, but would it be helpful to go into setup and pick DTS as the configuration instead of ATMOS narrow? Would that help with the remapping to engage more speakers?
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post #10348 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I would now like to clarify my initial exuberance over my first impression of the upgrade to the new DTS:X Pro upmixer.

I have since created two presets, one with my Wides and Top Middles set to "none" and one with them enabled to make use of the new upmixer. Once I was able to switch back and forth and with the volumes identical, the improvement in overall envelopment, IN MY ROOM (9.8.6), was subtle, AT BEST. I need to point out that because my L&R speakers are in the room vs behind the screen, they are lots closer to my left and right surrounds (probably 4 or 5 feet) than they would be otherwise. As a result, I get almost perfect imaging in the Wide position even with no Wides playing. I knew this to be the case when I played the Atmos Music disk by REM. I could turn on and off the Wides and the difference was subtle. While the sound when the Wides played was " a tiny bit" more distinct, it added little to the overall immersive experience.

What I did notice, however, was that the bass SEEMED TO increase when I switched between the two presets. If what I seem to hear is actually occurring, my guess is that the bass (LFE channel) created from the 4 additional speakers playing is added to the overall LFE channel output. If I have a chance tomorrow, I will just play the LFE channel and see if I can actually measure what I think I am hearing when I compare the two presets.

That said, I am still VERY glad that Trinnov provided this FREE update. While the immersive improvement may be subtle in my room, it is still an improvement - and the cost was well within my budget .
Have you tried comparing them from off-axis seats? The most benefit to having more than 7.1.4 speakers in any system is for anchoring sounds so that everyone gets a closer to the same experience. The MLP should, in small to average sized rooms, already phantom image perfectly with just 7.1.4 speakers as long as they are properly placed and good quality speakers. There should be almost no difference whatsoever with more speakers because you are sitting in the ideal location for phantom imaging. However, if the room is large and the angles between front and rear speakers become larger, even the MLP will get benefits as the extra speakers (say surround #1 and #2 and top middle) will bridge those angles so that imaging is restored to phantom image from front to back perfectly. This is true even with matrixed added speakers so it's certainly true with discrete.

But the moment you sit in the left or right chair off-center or move from the 1st row to the second row, the imaging differences become terribly apparent with even basic Dolby Digital demos. The precedence effect, whereby phantom sounds between stereo speakers begin to collapse to the nearest speaker the more off center you sit from it will screw up imaging terribly in places like center height or top surround (i.e. the reason we have a center bed speaker in the first place as this was the most noticeable location for the problem even with just stereo playback). As you continue to scale up a theater to infinity in theory, you would need ever more pairs of speakers to avoid the precedence effect as phantom imaging begins to fall apart after 110-130 degrees separation with degradation even before that point and the precedence effect able to destroy imaging with even lesser angles.

Top middle and front height stereo pairs are not sufficient to lock in a top center image for all seats off-axis. You need center height and top surround to do so. Thus, Atmos is utterly incapable of properly producing a consistent image for ALL seats. DTS:X Pro with its Auro-3D-centric added speakers should, at least in theory now be able to provide a fairly consistent experience for most seating locations (center rear and center rear height is problematic without at least a matrixed set there due to the psycho-acoustical issue with a speaker directly behind you, but I don't think ANY of the formats offer center rear height (although it can be simulated with an extracted set of channels).

...

Given the high praise for DTS:X Pro from the CES show, the initial reports here are somewhat disappointing. I was hoping to go full discrete with my 11.1.6 setup instead of a hybrid extraction (top middle) and matrixed FW and SS#1 ) at some point in the not-so-distant future. But between locked Atmos mixes (ala Disney) and the somewhat disappointing reports of DTS:X Pro for upmixing thus far, I'm starting to feel like it's not worth the effort. Auro-3D music albums like Mando Daio's Aelita are mind blowing here now even all the way to the third row and Atmos and X soundtracks equally pan as well across the entire room with no channel limitations whatsoever. I think I'd feel like I'd be paying more to get less. Reports of muffled front soundstages with the new Neural X are even more scary. That should not happen period, IMO. Extracting more speakers shouldn't muffle anything (it doesn't do with Pro Logic extraction or matrixed). It sounds like either DTS screwed up or there's some kind of interaction between Trinnov's own corrective remapping and Neural X's remapping of 7.1.4 (or less) soundtracks.
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post #10349 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 10:05 AM
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I've been busy since Fri rearranging some gear & re-routing cabling behind 2 cabinets in cramped conditions My knees & back have taken a beating! Finishing up today so haven't taken time yet to try DTS-X Pro & new NeuralX. But I will be trying it out very soon & will post my own results.

Based on comments about subtle differences, a more diffused soundstage, unclear center dialog, I think I'm going to copy 2 of my main presets and edit those. For me, in my room, Neural-X/NeoX has typically been inferior to PLIIx/z and DSU.

And I think it's probable that Atmos will still end up being mostly superior to DTS-X. Dolby was 1st, had the superior approach, has a commanding lead in 3D audio. DTS is still chasing them.

I look at using this enhanced capability as managing expectations

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post #10350 of 12164 Old 02-03-2020, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I've been busy since Fri rearranging some gear & re-routing cabling and finishing up today so haven't taken time yet to try DTS-X Pro & new NeuralX.

Based on comments about subtle differences, a more diffused soundstage, unclear center dialog, I think I'm going to copy my main preset and work on that and not just add speakers to the original. For me, in my room, Neural-X/NeoX has been inferior to PLIIx/z and DSU. Using matrixing in-between more & more speakers could make the diffused sound issue worse, just my opinion of course - I've called it the slice & dice syndrome.

And I think it's probable that Atmos will still end up being mostly superior to DTS-X. Dolby was 1st, had the superior approach, has a commanding lead in 3D audio. DTS is still chasing them.

I look at using this enhanced capability as managing expectations
Actually I liked the subtle difference I heard with Neural:X on my preset where I allowed more than 7.1.4 to be upmixed, but that was for 5.1 content. A sample of two now - Shakira in Paris BD (don't judge, it's not just the aesthetics I like ) and a miniseries in Netflix mixed in 5.1. And now, at least in my system, the center channel wasn't subdued or the front soundstage difused on native multichannel content.

I was less enthusiastic about Neural:X upmix with the apparently two-channel broadcast of the Super Bowl (as per my meters of the Xfinity Roku app) given a more diffuse soundstage for that one broadcast. However, as Marc Alexander notes, if you weren't a Neural:X fan of upmixed 2.0 before the DTS:X Pro update and removal of the 11 channel upmix limitation, you're not going to magically be one now.

My guess is that Neural:X will do a better job for 5.1 or 7.1, as well as DTS:X sources where more speakers beyond 7.1.4 are fed content. I'll put on Gladiator or ID4 tonight and see what I think.

And to Steve's point, with tactical use of 3D audio object locations in a higher resolution system, Atmos is going to be the platinum standard for immersive audio until DTS:X proves otherwise either with more use of objects ala Atmos OR with the higher channel count using upmix beyond DTS:X native (mostly) 7.1.4 content providing a similar sense of immersion. And that's going to be personal preference.

@magnum : remapping - particularly front remapping - may be less successful for higher channel count and/or Neural:X than it was in the days when 2.0 or 5.1/7.1 were SOTA. But I don't think that's anything new; people like Adam and even some of the Trinnov people will tell you that it's not a cure-all for poor or compromised placement. I used to be a big fan of remapping myself - the idea being that having more speakers producing sound than a 1:1 channel to output concept was a good thing for mathematical reasons of over-identified modeling as a paradigm - but I've come around to using surround only remapping in limited contexts.

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