Trinnov Altitude - Page 346 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 5146Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #10351 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 10:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
We are missing DTS: X materiale not hard mixed to 7.1.4. We have a few exceptions with additional static object. Same we had for Atmos until recently; so the DTS:X Pro is fantastic, we are just currently unable to hear how good it is.

I think Trinnov stated they would make some material available for download (DTS:X with dynamic objects, it was at least stated on the webinar held by Trinnov a while back).

If my understanding is correct, DTS:X Pro is superior to the Atmos on the technical level. But of course, this does not help if we are stuck with DTS:X releases with hardmixed 7.1.4. It is like buying a Ferriari to drive 500 meters to the supermarket and back.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #10352 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 10:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 9,546
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 795 Post(s)
Liked: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Shakira in Paris BD (don't judge, it's not just the aesthetics I like )...My guess is that Neural:X will do a better job for 5.1 or 7.1, as well as DTS:X sources where more speakers beyond 7.1.4 are fed content. I'll put on Gladiator or ID4 tonight and see what I think.

Great aesthetics is an understatement! Someone at our company once invited a group to his home & played one of her concert vids on his PJ setup. Her dancing movements are quite mesmerizing

I guess I missed a great Super Bowl half-time...watched part of the YouTube of J Lo & her...o boy.
sdrucker likes this.

Steve
ss9001 is offline  
post #10353 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 10:27 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,583
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
If my understanding is correct, DTS:X Pro is superior to the Atmos on the technical level.
Why? Because the most extreme systems can having bottom speakers? Two LFE channels?

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
HAA HT1 and HT2 Certification
sdrucker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #10354 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 10:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Why? Because the most extreme systems can having bottom speakers? Two LFE channels?
Two LFE channels; ground speakers and more simultaneous audio objects. Not to forget, way more coverage in center (ceiling).

DTS:X (Pro) got 5 layers, Atmos got 2.

Edit:
Currently the titles using all possibilities in Atmos are superior to what we currently have in DTS:X, but that got nothing to do with the DTS:X (Pro) as a standard.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700

Last edited by Berland; 02-03-2020 at 10:45 AM.
Berland is online now  
post #10355 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 10:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
YouTube of J Lo & her...o boy.
Main focus on the music, right?

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #10356 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 10:52 AM
Member
 
ShaharT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Israel
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Can you do a screenshot of the summary, showing elevation and azimuth for your speakers? Also, I take it that you're running physical height speakers rather than Dolby enabled upfiring speakers?

I'm assuming that you have "Autoswitch" engaged so that the speaker layout confirms with the format for the desired decoder.
Sure thing. Attached both the summary view, top view, and elevation view. Took me a while to figure out how to take a 'scrolling' screen-grab to take in all of the speaker-summary info

I would love your feedback!! Very kind of you.

Yes, these are physical height speakers. I've also attached the speaker-view that gives a pretty accurate look of what the room looks like in terms of speaker actual placement.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	speakervisual.JPG
Views:	71
Size:	31.1 KB
ID:	2679674   Click image for larger version

Name:	speaker-summary.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	482.9 KB
ID:	2679676   Click image for larger version

Name:	speaker-elevation.jpg
Views:	74
Size:	271.7 KB
ID:	2679680   Click image for larger version

Name:	speaker-topview.jpg
Views:	74
Size:	213.7 KB
ID:	2679682  
ShaharT is offline  
post #10357 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 10:53 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,583
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Two LFE channels; ground speakers and more simultaneous audio objects. Not to forget, way more coverage in center (ceiling).

DTS:X (Pro) got 5 layers, Atmos got 2.
Not sure I agree. If the lowest bass (roughly from 100 to 60 Hz on down) is omnidirectional, I don't see the advantage of LFE if you're using bass management...unless you're a fan of "stereo bass". And with the Trinnov's bass managment capabilities, I'm not sure I would care to be honest if there's some sort of "very low LFE" and "lower mid-bass LFE".

Ground speakers IMO makes more sense for a larger, cinema setting than it does for most homes, even with a multi-row setting with risers, as long as you follow Trinnov's surround elevation criteria. How many people have more than three or four rows and maybe 7 seats per row?

As to "way more coverage" from Ch, if you're putting a stereo image of an overhead (static) object into both the left and right front heights (tops), or playing something positioned to be played by both the left and right heights and the center using an object in that location, it's nice to have for limited contexts like IMAX Enhanced, but "way more coverage"? I don't know. Ask Dolby about that one.

I think a better argument for DTS:X is that you can have things like a dialogue object - it's not all 3D speaker locations, as I remember reading about the original DTS:X papers. But giving users the flexibility to play with the "intent of the mixer" to that extent - think the Super Bowl without the announcers, or a movie where you can raise or lower dialogue across all speakers - isn't something I can see mixers embracing anytime soon (as per comments on the Atmos thread a few years ago from the likes of @FilmMixer ). An advantage that isn't used in practice isn't much of an advantage.

Quote:
Edit:
Currently the titles using all possibilities in Atmos are superior to what we currently have in DTS:X, but that got nothing to do with the DTS:X (Pro) as a standard.
We agree there.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
HAA HT1 and HT2 Certification
sdrucker is offline  
post #10358 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 11:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
Sure thing. Attached both the summary view, top view, and elevation view. Took me a while to figure out how to take a 'scrolling' screen-grab to take in all of the speaker-summary info

I would love your feedback!! Very kind of you.

Yes, these are physical height speakers. I've also attached the speaker-view that gives a pretty accurate look of what the room looks like in terms of speaker actual placement.
Either something has gone wrong in your placement of speakers; or during calibration.

Difference in elevation for Ls and Rs as an example. ~10 degrees; that is ALOT.

Ltm/Rtm should be between (+/-) 80 and 90 degrees optimally (Azimuth).

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700

Last edited by Berland; 02-03-2020 at 11:10 AM.
Berland is online now  
post #10359 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 11:10 AM
Member
 
ShaharT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Israel
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
Either something has gone wrong in your placement of speakers; or during calibration.

Difference in elevation for Ls and Rs as an example. ~10 degrees; that is ALOT.
Thanks! Wow. I have no clue how I kept looking at this and not seeing this myself... Absolutely in the calibration as these are speakers on stands and precisely the same elevation. I'll re-run the calibration and pay better attention!
Any other glaring 'wrong' things you spot that I'm blind to?
ShaharT is offline  
post #10360 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 11:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,697
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1609 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Ground speakers IMO makes more sense for a larger, cinema setting than it does for most homes, even with a multi-row setting with risers, as long as you follow Trinnov's surround elevation criteria. How many people have more than three or four rows and maybe 7 seats per row?
Ground level speakers? I must have missed that along the way somewhere. Are we talking about for effects at foot level? A volcano erupting under your feet or things below on a gridded catwalk? That would be beyond awesome and worth quite a purchase if movies would actually support it. The "bubble" isn't really complete when it starts at ear level, IMO.

Quote:
As to "way more coverage" from Ch, if you're putting a stereo image of an overhead (static) object into both the left and right front heights (tops), or playing something positioned to be played by both the left and right heights and the center using an object in that location, it's nice to have for limited contexts like IMAX Enhanced, but "way more coverage"? I don't know. Ask Dolby about that one.
As soon as you sit off-center for any seat, you're going to have the image move over due to precedence. Just play the Auro-3D center height (or numerous titles with center height content like Flatliners or Red Tails or even Blade Runner 2049) and and sit in a seat left or right of center and you'll find the sound coming more from the left or right height/top speaker than the top of the center of the screen. Sure, it works fine in the center, but then so does front wide imaging in a reasonable sized room. Top surround would do the same for the middle of the room to ensure a plane flyover stays in the center even if you're sitting 2 seats to the left.

I keep getting the feeling that people are disappointed with more speakers precisely because the system is working as it should (i.e. you won't notice much difference in most correctly set up systems sitting at the MLP. You'll notice the biggest differences sitting in off-center seats with the sounds now correctly placed for more of those locations at those seats than before). In other words, if you're only concerned with YOUR SEAT (MLP), you might as well go with a small home theater and 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 and sit in the best seat all the time. You won't miss a thing and won't need 30-34 speakers. If you want a home theater with 2-4 rows or more, you're going to need, not just want more speakers to make it sound good for everyone. That is where DTS:X Pro should shine with or without object based content because it will present a more suitable image for everyone in the room by utilizing the extra speakers. With DSU ignoring all the extra speakers, it should fail hard with a 7-row home theater (Atmos would be fine if it's not locked). THAT is the real difference, IMO whether or not DTS:X ever does as well or better than Atmos with pure soundtracks (frankly, I've heard plenty of awful Atmos soundtracks like Labyrinth and Murder On The Orient Express that barely used surrounds, let alone overheads and several truly great DTS:X ones like Harry Potter and Crimson Peak whereby if those were the only soundtracks I had heard, I would assume DTS:X was miles better than Atmos. But if you hear better Atmos tracks like Fury, Overlord, Jumanji, etc. it's apparent both formats can do very well if utilized well. I've got 11 Auro-3D soundtracks, 4 Auro-3D music albums and both demo discs now (another 2 dozen songs or so) and frankly, other than rear surrounds, it sounds exceptional as well in an expanded speaker count hybrid setup like mine. I'd be happy to get ANY good movie that was previously only in 5.1 upgraded to any of these formats as long as they do a good job with the mix as my setup is not affected by 11-channel limits or no support for FW with DSU, etc. as I extract all those channels and they work 100% of the time.

Quote:
I think a better argument for DTS:X is that you can have things like a dialogue object - it's not all 3D speaker locations, as I remember reading about the original DTS:X papers. But giving users the flexibility to play with the "intent of the mixer" to that extent - think the Super Bowl without the announcers, or a movie where you can raise or lower dialogue across all speakers - isn't something I can see mixers embracing anytime soon (as per comments on the Atmos thread a few years ago from the likes of @FilmMixer ). An advantage that isn't used in practice isn't much of an advantage.
Abuse of a system should not prevent its use for major advantages. People with less than optimal hearing (or speakers or even having to play at lower volumes so explosions don't tick off their neighbors) shouldn't have to suffer not hearing the dialog or use subtitles to see what is said because some ego-driven monster in Hollywood is terrified someone might play his mix back with the dialog louder or softer than he "intended". I really hat that ego crap. I want more options not more ego.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is online now  
post #10361 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 11:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
Thanks! Wow. I have no clue how I kept looking at this and not seeing this myself... Absolutely in the calibration as these are speakers on stands and precisely the same elevation. I'll re-run the calibration and pay better attention!
Any other glaring 'wrong' things you spot that I'm blind to?
Ltm/Rtm <== azimuth completely wrong on both (much closer to Ls/Rs) <== edit: I read it wrong, this is not too bad
Lrs/Rrs <== azimuth and elevation _very_ wrong
Lrh/Rrh <== azimuth off
HLs/HRs <=== Elevation

L, C (azimuth only) and R should not be more off in azimuth or elevation than max 0.9 degrees (these should be very spot on).
ShaharT likes this.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700

Last edited by Berland; 02-03-2020 at 11:24 AM.
Berland is online now  
post #10362 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 11:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
A7mad78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 662
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Thinking to upgrade from 16 to 24ch what is the MSRP for the upgrade


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A7mad78 is offline  
post #10363 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 11:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
Thinking to upgrade from 16 to 24ch what is the MSRP for the upgrade


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Price is not bad actually. A good indication is to see the price difference between your model and the 24 channel model in your country (fairly similar price for upgrade).
A7mad78 likes this.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #10364 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 12:30 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
appelz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: A Hilton property near you!
Posts: 1,109
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Liked: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
Thinking to upgrade from 16 to 24ch what is the MSRP for the upgrade


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PM sent. Contact your dealer of course.

Adam Pelz ,Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
Level III Trinnov Altitude Calibrator, JBL Master ARCOS Calibrator, CEDIA Designer, Home Acoustics Alliance Instructor LIII, THX HT1+ HT2+ Video
Mercenary Calibrator for Manufacturers, Integrators and System Owners
appelz is online now  
post #10365 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 12:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Lasalle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 1,023
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 642 Post(s)
Liked: 518
Just did the upgrade, great support from Trinnov. Going to 21 channels I had a few questions:
1) I have 8 Atmos T/H’s (I’ve LH,Ltf,Ltm,Ltr) in DTS:X I mapped Ltr to Lhr even though its closer to the Ltr position correct?
2) With 2 side surrounds (the second closer to the Auro position) , set Ls1(Atmos) to Lss, Changed Ls(Atmos) to Ls
Does this look correct, thanks

Full mapping below:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1580762160
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1580763994
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1580763994
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	C345B227-5BCB-463D-8616-3727A5C9DDDA.png
Views:	53
Size:	871.3 KB
ID:	2679708   Click image for larger version

Name:	A36D03AA-BC16-4432-B552-0583705E58CB.png
Views:	32
Size:	2.48 MB
ID:	2679738   Click image for larger version

Name:	1E16E4EE-4191-42DC-8BC5-A063A3BA1759.png
Views:	33
Size:	2.48 MB
ID:	2679740  

Last edited by Lasalle; 02-03-2020 at 01:08 PM.
Lasalle is offline  
post #10366 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 12:50 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2598 Post(s)
Liked: 1861
So, am I to assume with the new update, you add speakers to the DTS-X column but not the DTS column - leave as is?


I salute our Immersion professionals: Curt Hoyt to which I am very thankful for positioning my JBL loudspeakers correctly to achieve a very tight bubble and the greatly missed Peter CINERAMAX whose fearless R&D in PRO-RIBBON cinemas, curation of most immersive Kaleidescape scripts and forging ahead to 55 loudspeaker Crystal Led Cinemas will pave the road ahead. And Adam Pelz for bringing the system to jawdropping life!
thebland is offline  
post #10367 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 12:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
No, update both.
Lasalle likes this.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700

Last edited by Berland; 02-03-2020 at 01:16 PM.
Berland is online now  
post #10368 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 01:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
A7mad78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 662
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
PM sent. Contact your dealer of course.


Thx adam


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A7mad78 is offline  
post #10369 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 02:49 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 10,611
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5788 Post(s)
Liked: 4891
This discussion on the "possible merits" of DTS:X Pro over Atmos reminds me of the early discussions when 3D audio was first announced. It was Auro this an Auro that. The only issue is there is STILL (4 or 5 years later) NO Auro movie content in the US (I have one music Auro Music BR and one Auro demo disc). Clearly the jury is out on DTS:X Pro until someone starts producing movie discs with objects that exceed 11 speakers.
audioguy is offline  
post #10370 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 02:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
This discussion on the "possible merits" of DTS:X Pro over Atmos reminds me of the early discussions when 3D audio was first announced. It was Auro this an Auro that. The only issue is there is STILL (4 or 5 years later) NO Auro movie content in the US (I have one music Auro Music BR and one Auro demo disc). Clearly the jury is out on DTS:X Pro until someone starts producing movie discs with objects that exceed 11 speakers.
One cool thing with DTS:X Pro is the possibility to upmix DTS:X. It will be exciting to see if we get any new DTS:X releases with multiple dynamic objects (currently we have a lot without any objects, and some with static objects in Ch).

Eventually i hope we will get the cinema DTS:X and Atmos mixes. That would end these discussions.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #10371 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 03:39 PM
LJG
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LJG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Brookville, NY
Posts: 5,136
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 834 Post(s)
Liked: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
No, update both.
Just curious why you would update the DTS portion
LJG is offline  
post #10372 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 03:43 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Steve Bruzonsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Posts: 21,024
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2102 Post(s)
Liked: 1387
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
This discussion on the "possible merits" of DTS:X Pro over Atmos reminds me of the early discussions when 3D audio was first announced. It was Auro this an Auro that. The only issue is there is STILL (4 or 5 years later) NO Auro movie content in the US (I have one music Auro Music BR and one Auro demo disc). Clearly the jury is out on DTS:X Pro until someone starts producing movie discs with objects that exceed 11 speakers.
2L out of Norway has a number of blu ray audio discs, some of which are also encloded with Auro 3D, some of which are also encoded with Dolby Atmos.

For info on albums: http://www.2l.no/

2L used to sell blu rays and music downloads direct. Now you buy from other sites - blu ray audio discs e.g. from Amazon.
sdrucker likes this.

Pray for all of our healthcare providers, food manufacturing and delivery workers, all of whom are doing their best at great risk to help us survive the current Covid-19 virus crisis.
Steve Bruzonsky is online now  
post #10373 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 03:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Just curious why you would update the DTS portion


Also see Native on DTS:X
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Skjermbilde 2020-02-04 kl. 00.45.21.png
Views:	601
Size:	394.4 KB
ID:	2679860  

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #10374 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 03:49 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,583
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1848 Post(s)
Liked: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post
One cool thing with DTS:X Pro is the possibility to upmix DTS:X. It will be exciting to see if we get any new DTS:X releases with multiple dynamic objects (currently we have a lot without any objects, and some with static objects in Ch).

Eventually i hope we will get the cinema DTS:X and Atmos mixes. That would end these discussions.
That's not happening. We in the consumer A/V space are doing "near field" listening, as @FilmMixer has stated. There's a different speaker layout and different requirements for dynamic range, not to mention cinema mixes don't always have the deep LFE we enjoy..

DTS:X Pro has been out for a grand total of three days to the Trinnov public, a few beta testers aside. I'd slow down and enjoy what we hear from both available DTS:X content and what different upmixer experiences with 2.0, 5.1, and 7.1 bring to the table.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
HAA HT1 and HT2 Certification

Last edited by sdrucker; 02-03-2020 at 03:54 PM.
sdrucker is offline  
post #10375 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 03:54 PM
LJG
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LJG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Brookville, NY
Posts: 5,136
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 834 Post(s)
Liked: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post


Also see Native on DTS:X
Thanks Berland, but if you set to Auto the layout used is DTS:X, what is the benefit to setting to upmix on Native with DTS layout? If you are updating both the same.
LJG is offline  
post #10376 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 04:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Thanks Berland, but if you set to Auto the layout used is DTS:X, what is the benefit to setting to upmix on Native with DTS layout? If you are updating both the same.
The table explains this

I always use Upmix on native or native; _never_ auto. And I have set up PCM upmix to Dolby Surround (General Decoder setting). Music I use Native or Auro3D (Auro3D hardly ever used anymore).

Edit:
Actually for the first question; see upmix on native first column.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #10377 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 04:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,697
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1609 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
This discussion on the "possible merits" of DTS:X Pro over Atmos reminds me of the early discussions when 3D audio was first announced. It was Auro this an Auro that. The only issue is there is STILL (4 or 5 years later) NO Auro movie content in the US (I have one music Auro Music BR and one Auro demo disc). Clearly the jury is out on DTS:X Pro until someone starts producing movie discs with objects that exceed 11 speakers.
What amazes me is that someone can have the money to buy a $30K+ Trinnov processor but apparently cannot manage to place an order for a movie from Amazon UK or Germany even though they use the same exact logon and even pass your billing info through. If I didn't use Amazon UK, I wouldn't be able to watch most newer 3D movies as they don't really make those for the US market anymore either (with the rare exception). And yet somehow I have over 210 3D movies here with more coming soon on the way including Maleficent 2 and The Rise of Skywalker in 3D. Somehow, despite living in the USA, I've managed to acquire 17 Auro-3D Blu-Rays in the past 18 months and they all have soundtracks in English so it's not like I'm buying foreign versions of the movies. Only one had a region issue (Inferno in Auro-3D from Australia, but after dumping to my server hard drive and playing it via KODI, it works perfectly fine). Another movie, Flatliners isn't available in Atmos on disc, but it's available in Auro-3D on disc (and Atmos via streaming).

Let's see:

Total movies:
-1200+ (haven't counted them lately, but not counting overlaps between older DVDs, laserdiscs and the newer Blu-Rays and streaming titles)

Since getting a 3D projector in August 2017:
-210 3D movies all on Blu-Ray (and a few concerts and the like)

Since getting an Immersive AVR in August 2018:
-72 Atmos Blu-Rays including UHD ones (probably another 50 or so streaming ones from iTunes, many free upgrades from digital copies from non-Atmos versions)
-40 DTS:X Blu-Ray including UHD ones
-17 Auro-3D Blu-Rays (11 movies, 4 full music albums and both Demo discs so that's another 24 songs or so). Several of those Auro-3D titles are also in 3D or are now with remuxing.

That's nearly a 4:2:1 ratio. "Hardly any" doesn't seem to apply to DTS:X, IMO unless you have no interest in those titles and more will be coming out soon with Sony moving to DTS:X for many disc based titles.

I've also got 2 movies with DTS:X and Atmos versions and 5 movies with Auro-3D and Atmos versions to do direct comparisons. Both Atmos/X versions sound literally identical on the same number of speakers (clearly made from the same master). The Auro-3D ones are slightly different to somewhat different (usually placement varies a bit for some images), but sound very similar when using the same layout (e.g. 5.1.4).

Other than the rear beds not present in most Auro-3D movies, the notion that one format is "superior" to another is meaningless as most aren't available in more than one format so there's not much to compare at home. If I want Red Tails in true immersive, Auro-3D is the only option (other than a Neural X upmix) and the same for Death Machine. What I can say is that the really good DTS:X movies (e.g. Harry Potter series, Crimson Peak, London Has Fallen, etc.) are just as good as the better Atmos titles (Fury, Overlord, Jumanji, Blade Runner 2049, etc.)

I think the real question is whether one is going to get hung up on equipment (ala Audiophiles, some who own six figure stereo setups, yet own only a few dozen albums because the rest aren't good enough to bother to show the system off as they're not really interested in the music, just the sound quality) or you simply want your favorite movies in the best audio quality you can obtain them in and enjoy the immersion. Putting down Auro-3D is pointless to me. I bought several Auro titles to compare and at this point if something new (like with Death Machine) comes out that is not available in Atmos or X, I'll buy it. If they somehow magically come out of obscurity and start making loads of back titles only in Auro-3D somehow, I'll buy them too if there's no Atmos/X version.

If both Atmos and X are available at some point on the same exact format (i.e. disc, not disc vs streaming where you usually end up with both if you buy the disc anyway in the USA, at least), I'd go with the better reviewed title or which one I could use with as many speakers as possible (i.e. if it's a locked Disney title, the X version would be more sensible for more equipment choices should I ditch the hybrid system and go Trinnov or some other format in the next year or two). What's important is that the movies sound as good as they can on my system, not which format they are. If I had DTS:X Pro and a choice between a Disney title in 7.1.4 DTS:X or 7.1.4 Atmos, I know I'd pick DTS:X Pro as the Atmos one is locked out of the extra speakers even on a Trinnov.

What's nice in DTS:X Pro, though is that the Neural X upmixer can utilize Auro-3D speakers (CH, TS and SH) for home theaters that went with that layout (or just to anchor sounds better overhead for all seats). It's a shame Atmos doesn't update to use all the possible speakers too. Objects shouldn't care where they are rendered in the room. But these companies are more interested in fighting each other and taking the whole pie than trying to get along and that's only bad for consumers, IMO as you end up with people like Dolby attempting to shut down 3rd party upmixers with their soundtracks until the EU stepped in and stopped them cold.
Papouche Le Mec likes this.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is online now  
post #10378 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 04:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
I have a collection of 8000+ movies (most ordinary blu-ray); over 600 UHD blu-ray. Count of Atmos vs DTS:X; I have no clue

And no; I have not seen them all!

Edit:
And I enjoy a good DTS:X or Atmos mix, but the movie itself is most important for me at least. It actually happens I see movies I don't like because of the audio mix (which might not be a bad thing?). Same applies for music.
Doyanole likes this.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700

Last edited by Berland; 02-03-2020 at 04:14 PM.
Berland is online now  
post #10379 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 04:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 1,106
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Over to another thing, wasn't the Ford v. Ferrari movie suppose to have DTS:X ? I have just heard someone saying the blu-ray edition contains DTS HD.MA 7.1, while the UHD blu-ray got Atmos.

HT: Trinnov A32 (AL32-1632)/AMP8/8M - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - B&W 802D3, 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, SCMS, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2 - Heimdall2/Frey2 - ISOTEK EVO3 Titan,Sigmas - LG OLED65B7V - GIK ACOUSTICS
HP: Matrix Element X, 2*MOON 430HA D, 2*MiND2 - 2*Yggdrasil - 2*Hydra Z/ZPM - ISOTEK EVO3 Sigmas, Aquarius - Heimdall 2 - AUDEZE LCD-4 rev2, 2*LCD-XC - SHURE SE846 - Bose NC 700
Berland is online now  
post #10380 of 12156 Old 02-03-2020, 04:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,697
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1609 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
That's not happening. We in the consumer A/V space are doing "near field" listening, as @FilmMixer has stated. There's a different speaker layout and different requirements for dynamic range, not to mention cinema mixes don't always have the deep LFE we enjoy..
Did you miss the announcement from the guy from IMAX that said they are NOT going to use the "near field" mixes for IMAX Enhanced titles, but instead use the cinema ones? Before 1999, *ALL* soundtracks were the cinema mixes at home. Paramount also does not use "near field" mixes from what I read (which explains why I can crank their movies like Raiders of the Lost Ark to reference and it sounds great, why many of the "near field" mixes are so dynamically compressed, they'd hurt your ears in the dialog channel at that level.

There's only ONE thing in physics that is significantly difference between sitting 3 feet from a speaker an 20 feet and that's the high frequency content is higher when you sit closer. This, however was addressed clear back in the 1990s with home THX and the THX RE-EQ option which compensates for the extra treble you will get at home with a cinema mix. That same basic option is present in every major AVR today. In D&M products, for example, it's called Cinema EQ. The funny thing is that option is often on by default, but most soundtracks (save perhaps Paramount) since around 2000 have been near-field mixes that already adjust the EQ so having it on reduces treble even further (sadly no automatic 'flag' option to detect whether a given soundtrack is near field or cinema exists to my knowledge so you have to somehow magically KNOW what you have and let's face it, we don't know other than to guess by time frame or studio and how many people even know that much? It's screwed up, IMO. There should be ONE STANDARD (the cinema one) and the home products should have adjustments to deal with that rather than making a separate mix that does the same things. In fact, it could be done better at home because your AVR could adjust the amount of EQ based on how far away your MLP is from the speakers since it's measuring it anyway (and likely applying room EQ as well).

Sadly, the other things "near field mixes" often (but not always) do have to do with what the studio thinks "sounds better at home". I read this straight from one of the sound guys at a pro forum (had links to it in another thread somewhere). Basically, this is up to the team doing the soundtrack, but it usually involves reducing dynamic range 6-8dB on average (since they figure most people will NOT listen at home at Dolby reference levels and this also reduces the risk of blowing up sound bars that can't handle it) as well as reducing the channel separation for Main L/R because they assume that most people are watching on 50-65" televisions and probably have their speakers spread out further than that on the sides, so they reduce the amount of stereo separation to make the sounds closer together for those TVs. Disney seems to go even further and assumes you're using TV speakers or something.... But ALL those things are put in the "near field" mix despite having NOTHING to do with near field and everything to do with making home mixes for the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR. This needs to stop, IMO. So if IMAX wants to release Cinema quality soundtracks on their Blu-Rays, I shout, MORE POWER TO THEM BABY!

I've got the Cinema Apt-X soundtrack for the Matrix here and matched for the dialog levels on the Atmos release (which isn't bad sounding by any means), it's easily got 6-8dB more dynamic range on the explosions (with dialog matched, it's almost scary sounding when something blows up in the movie like the helicopter crash). I'd take that version upmixed with Neural X over the Atmos one any day of the week as it's far more engaging. The dialog sounds fine with Cinema EQ on as does everything else.

Quote:
DTS:X Pro has been out for a grand total of three days to the Trinnov public, a few beta testers aside. I'd slow down and enjoy what we hear from both available DTS:X content and what different upmixer experiences with 2.0, 5.1, and 7.1 bring to the table.
Some people seem quick to judge it to be crap on here. I'll be curious to hear reviews from other equipment owners like the Denon 8500 if/when they get their own upgrade as I still don't understand how someone gets a muffled front soundstage just because more surround speakers are engaged.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off