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post #11161 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 10:20 AM
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I will soon go to 6 Sub., 4-LFE and 2 Separate for surround and will show the measurements.
Hope Corona doesn't screw us. Stay healthy.


He has the beta on the StormAudio MK-2 with Bass-BM and will make extra video for Dirac-BM if I understand correctly;

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post #11162 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
...if you'd like to show some plots in REW or similar external measurement software of a room where you measure sub1 response with Dirac BM run, sub2 response with Dirac BM run, and the combined response of sub1+sub2 as a single response, using the Dirac BM parameters, that would be great.

+1 to seeing this just for learning's sake

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post #11163 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 10:31 AM
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Will Trinnov also get the Auro3D-2? The man in the video says that the Auro3D-2 has become much better.
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post #11164 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I read some of Dirac's web info about this Bass Management feature. Marketing & generality is all I found so far. If there's a white paper or some technical details, I'd sure like to see them. Does anyone have links to or know of reviews or comparisons with before & after room measurements?

Otherwise, there's no way to tell what it does, how well it works or what is unique.

I am a big fan of Dirac (at least the version that existed on my RS20i). And I have no doubt that their new BM approach will be an improvement of some kind over their existing solutions. But what remains to be seen is how it compares to the existing abilities of the Trinnov AND how it will compare to any improvements in bass managements that will be forthcoming from Trinnov.
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post #11165 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I will soon go to 6 Sub., 4-LFE and 2 Separate for surround and will show the measurements.
Hope Corona doesn't screw us. Stay healthy.


He has the beta on the StormAudio MK-2 with Bass-BM and will make extra video for Dirac-BM if I understand correctly;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj8fT2NCnYw&t=3358s
That guy from Hollywood Zuhause is usually a source of pretty good reviews with the caveat that they're German so youtube's translation isn't perfect. But I've seen him do real electrical measurements on amp performance in AVRs so I think he's tried to be objective. I think he did some kind of review or preview of an Altitude 32 yrs ago.

I'll give it a watch while I'm in isolation. Retired so have time

Steve

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post #11166 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 10:41 AM
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Unfortunately, Datasat has not been a benchmark for a long time, the sound is now provided by the two Frenchmen, Trinnov and StormAudio, who are also the only ones who decode more than 16 channels
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post #11167 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I read some of Dirac's web info about this Bass Management feature. Marketing & generality is all I found so far. If there's a white paper or some technical details, I'd sure like to see them. Does anyone have links to or know of reviews or comparisons with before & after room measurements?

Otherwise, there's no way to tell what it does, how well it works or what is unique.
All I see is a LOT of scattered use on AVS, from the MiniDSP 88A hard-core enthusiasts, @ment and the Storm Audio ISE reference, and some things - maybe more speculation, but too many links to search - on the HTP-1, SDP-55, and NAD thread. I'm unclear just who has Dirac BM today in their products at this writing.

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Is it supposed to give similar results to MSO (which I've never used in all honesty)?
You'd have to ask someone running both. The one guy I know that would do this most rigorously didn't have good luck with MSO for his single seat MLP, as MSO really needs data for more than just MLP or a tiny distance around it. Maybe I'll ask on the 88A thread and see if anyone's done anything along those lines.

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post #11168 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
All I see is a LOT of scattered use on AVS, from the MiniDSP 88A hard-core enthusiasts, @ment and the Storm Audio ISE reference, and some things - maybe more speculation, but too many links to search - on the HTP-1, SDP-55, and NAD thread. I'm unclear just who has Dirac BM today in their products at this writing.



You'd have to ask someone running both. The one guy I know that would do this most rigorously didn't have good luck with MSO for his single seat MLP, as MSO really needs data for more than just MLP or a tiny distance around it. Maybe I'll ask on the 88A thread and see if anyone's done anything along those lines.

You could always ask our UK AV buddy who had/has the 88A. His opinions were unbiased & always objective Seriously, AustinJerry would be a good one to check with.

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post #11169 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 11:01 AM
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You could always ask our UK AV buddy who had/has the 88A. His opinions were unbiased & always objective Seriously, AustinJerry would be a good one to check with.
Just sent Jerry a PM. Trinnov threads aren't his usual environment so I PM'd him unless he wants to join us . LOL.

Our UK friend, as you put it, has a completed room that can't get any better from his POV , and he's not particularly active on AVS anymore. I don't think he's done much investigation of MSO but I could be wrong. However, I do know that he's very happy with the results, and spends his retired time watching several movies a day if memory serves.

Back to our usual stuff...
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post #11170 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 11:03 AM
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Dirac-BM is not officially out yet, only StormAudio has implemented it in the MK-2 until today, HTP-1 is still working.
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Datastat puts you in the middle a of a sweet soft aural marsh mellow and holds you there.

Trinnov lets you know that there is a outer boundary of aural sensory information that you did not know existed outside the marsh mellow.
Do these differences only exist after Optimizer EQ is applied? Or is this a result of the hardware?

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That guy from Hollywood Zuhause is usually a source of pretty good reviews with the caveat that they're German so youtube's translation isn't perfect. But I've seen him do real electrical measurements on amp performance in AVRs so I think he's tried to be objective. I think he did some kind of review or preview of an Altitude 32 yrs ago.

I'll give it a watch while I'm in isolation. Retired so have time
He has Trinnov and Datasat in his program.
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Why has Dirac taken a completely opposite approach and is emphasizing the importance of calibrating subs individually to not only factor in their overall room response but the individual interactions between subs in your room?

Dirac Bass Management Module is supposed to be revolutionary. I am a potential Trinnov purchaser but very disappointed they are not following Diracs lead with individual sub calibration in 2020.

Edit: okay I read subsequent discussion about low frequency wavelength vs room size. Why has Dirac pursued individual bass management with separate channels for each sub if the basic laws of physics state otherwise ?

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I think there is some confusion. First, multiple subs in small rooms behave as a single sub. When I recommend setting up multiple subs as a single channel, this is just to avoid *any* room correction system from calibrating each sub completely independently. If I were to look at each sub individually and target a flat response, when I look at the overall system response with all 4, I won't get that same flat response. When set up as a multi-way speaker, or independent outputs from an external DSP, I still have the ability to adjust time delay, level and PEQ for each sub. I just look at the room response (among other things) for the entire system, and not a single sub. Harman's SFM/SFM2 uses this approach, MSO does as well, and Geddes. Dirac is a closed system and there isn't much available to read, but I assume they are doing something similar. Trinnov is also working on something.

A professional calibrator with an understanding of the maths/physics and proper measurement equipment and DSP will outperform the "auto-magic" button, of course. Currently, only Trinnov truly allows a calibrator to dig deep into the process and adjust many parameters.
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
+1 to seeing this just for learning's sake
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I will soon go to 6 Sub., 4-LFE and 2 Separate for surround and will show the measurements.
Hope Corona doesn't screw us. Stay healthy.


He has the beta on the StormAudio MK-2 with Bass-BM and will make extra video for Dirac-BM if I understand correctly;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj8fT2NCnYw&t=3358s
The vast majority of us speak English as our native language . FYI you'll have to enable subtitles and auto-translate to English in the YouTube settings to approximately follow the dialogue here.

It's a little unfair to expect measurements for a product that's still being demo'd at ISE or in beta, but it's a little hard to know exactly how it's performing without being in the hands of users doing the measurements. Hope that's possible sooner rather than later.

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post #11175 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 12:33 PM
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Just sent Jerry a PM. Trinnov threads aren't his usual environment so I PM'd him unless he wants to join us . LOL.

Our UK friend, as you put it, has a completed room that can't get any better from his POV , and he's not particularly active on AVS anymore. I don't think he's done much investigation of MSO but I could be wrong. However, I do know that he's very happy with the results, and spends his retired time watching several movies a day if memory serves.

Back to our usual stuff...
Answer from Jerry, who's about as much a science guy as anyone on AVS (he's a retired technical writer I believe) is that it's not out yet and he knows as much as us. In other words, we'll know when we see it.

However, if this post is any guide, folks looking for the Dirac solution will be waiting for a little while longer. See the quote in this post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post59475602

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Gears > Setup > Active Crossovers. Assign your sub output as a 2 way speaker, and then set the crossovers identical. If you are using MSO or such, you can still apply separate level, delay and PEQ per output.
I have found MSO to work amazingly well in my situation. Because I have an SDP-75 which has PEQ disabled, I have to use a minidsp for independent setting of level, delay, and PEQ, but the results are definitely worth it. As applez says, the physics of small room acoustics are very complex. To get optimal bass uniformity from multiple subs pretty much requires a multi-objective optimization approach, a la MSO or ARCOS.
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post #11177 of 12084 Old 04-10-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I think there is some confusion. First, multiple subs in small rooms behave as a single sub. When I recommend setting up multiple subs as a single channel, this is just to avoid *any* room correction system from calibrating each sub completely independently. If I were to look at each sub individually and target a flat response, when I look at the overall system response with all 4, I won't get that same flat response. When set up as a multi-way speaker, or independent outputs from an external DSP, I still have the ability to adjust time delay, level and PEQ for each sub. I just look at the room response (among other things) for the entire system, and not a single sub. Harman's SFM/SFM2 uses this approach, MSO does as well, and Geddes. Dirac is a closed system and there isn't much available to read, but I assume they are doing something similar. Trinnov is also working on something.

A professional calibrator with an understanding of the maths/physics and proper measurement equipment and DSP will outperform the "auto-magic" button, of course. Currently, only Trinnov truly allows a calibrator to dig deep into the process and adjust many parameters.

As it stands now with the Optimizer, when you do the initial setup wizard (prior to digging deeper with manual setup), how are subs treated ? Does it individually EQ them first and then run a combined EQ ? I believe in the threads I read about Dirac BM this is indeed the approach they will be using. Obviously with the Trinnov you can take this to another level with manual adjustments after it does its thing, as you mention.

Thanks everyone for answering and discussing bass management in a competing product. RoomEQ isn’t the be-all and end-all of audio performance, but it does play a significant role which is why I was interested to hear opinions about how Dirac vs Trinnov approach this.
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
That guy from Hollywood Zuhause is usually a source of pretty good reviews with the caveat that they're German so youtube's translation isn't perfect. But I've seen him do real electrical measurements on amp performance in AVRs so I think he's tried to be objective. I think he did some kind of review or preview of an Altitude 32 yrs ago.

I'll give it a watch while I'm in isolation. Retired so have time
He sells both Trinnov & StormAudio and in the video basically says can't go wrong with either.

I listened to the video in German and the impression I got was that in general his preference was to manually dial-in room correction rather than rely on automatic room correction.

StormAudio did a webinar in the last couple of days on new features including Dirac Bass Control and said will do some follow-up ones on Dirac. I'll take any further discussion about that into the StormAudio thread as not relevant here.
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Do these differences only exist after Optimizer EQ is applied? Or is this a result of the hardware?
after
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@sdrucker , not sure if I missed it - do you happen to have published a „mini tutorial“ on how to do MSO with the Trinnov somewhere? I really like my Trinnov AL16, but the bass management/perfomance is a bit off to what I am used to in my 2.4 Stereo Set using Audiolense and a cascaded stereo sub approach. Any hints/dos/don’ts highly appreciated! Thanks!
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post #11181 of 12084 Old 04-11-2020, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I think there is some confusion. First, multiple subs in small rooms behave as a single sub. When I recommend setting up multiple subs as a single channel, this is just to avoid *any* room correction system from calibrating each sub completely independently. If I were to look at each sub individually and target a flat response, when I look at the overall system response with all 4, I won't get that same flat response. When set up as a multi-way speaker, or independent outputs from an external DSP, I still have the ability to adjust time delay, level and PEQ for each sub. I just look at the room response (among other things) for the entire system, and not a single sub. Harman's SFM/SFM2 uses this approach, MSO does as well, and Geddes. Dirac is a closed system and there isn't much available to read, but I assume they are doing something similar. Trinnov is also working on something.

A professional calibrator with an understanding of the maths/physics and proper measurement equipment and DSP will outperform the "auto-magic" button, of course. Currently, only Trinnov truly allows a calibrator to dig deep into the process and adjust many parameters.
Thanks for this info. Seems like you are sometimes setting up subs as multi-way speakers. Guess they wouldn’t even be labeled subs? I couldn’t see anyway to setup 2 subs (using their standard sub setup process) as a single two-way like you can for anything other than subs. As soon as you select “add sub”, you get no other options besides PEQ during setup. Seems like Trinnov should provide better sub options (vs workarounds). Maybe another measurement microphone if needed. SJ
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after
Indeed this is mostly attributable to the patented 3D microphone for the bed channels that is, the tops do not take advantage of the mic.

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post #11183 of 12084 Old 04-11-2020, 06:54 AM
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Thanks for this info. Seems like you are sometimes setting up subs as multi-way speakers. Guess they wouldn’t even be labeled subs? I couldn’t see anyway to setup 2 subs (using their standard sub setup process) as a single two-way like you can for anything other than subs. As soon as you select “add sub”, you get no other options besides PEQ during setup. Seems like Trinnov should provide better sub options (vs workarounds). Maybe another measurement microphone if needed. SJ

You will first need to do the following to set the subs up as a multi-way speaker where you can adjust levels and delays as necessary (using REW or equivalent to determine best values)



And you can adjust PEQs to subs as necessary:


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Originally Posted by mark specht View Post
@sdrucker , not sure if I missed it - do you happen to have published a „mini tutorial“ on how to do MSO with the Trinnov somewhere? I really like my Trinnov AL16, but the bass management/perfomance is a bit off to what I am used to in my 2.4 Stereo Set using Audiolense and a cascaded stereo sub approach. Any hints/dos/don’ts highly appreciated! Thanks!
I use this application note from Minidsp as my guide:

https://www.minidsp.com/applications...-sub-optimizer

Using this with the Altitude will be 90% the same, the only difference is how you input the final PEQ, level, and delays.

Edit - Audioguy beat me to it on the part about setting up multiple sub outputs
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With Trinnov Surround and Surround Back Left, can you route the bass to Sub-Back Left and the right side to Sub-Back Right? The front gets 4-Sub. for LFE.
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I am sure most of Trinnov owners already know this, but for future owners (like me!) this is super useful. you can watch all the past webinars that have been recorded and you even subscribe to upcoming ones for free!

https://www.gotostage.com/channel/c7...27b3426b82e846
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I am sure most of Trinnov owners already know this, but for future owners (like me!) this is super useful. you can watch all the past webinars that have been recorded and you even subscribe to upcoming ones for free!

https://www.gotostage.com/channel/c7...27b3426b82e846
Kudos to Trinnov for conducting these webinars during this time of shutdown in the developed world, and for sharing their knowledge and perspective. As a marketing professional myself, I admire that they're embracing the concept of "Every Home Theatre Deserves an Altitude" and providing the backup for why this should be the literal truth. Budget permitting, of course...but one positive of the shakeup of the entertainment world that might work against multiplexes is that consumers may have more reason to engage in the idea of a home theatre.

Maybe we can't all have a HT like Mikela or Steve B., but that's where the Altitude 16 for one may develop more of a niche among people looking for the "good old days" of movie theatres on a more personal level, albeit with social distancing.
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Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
HAA HT1 and HT2 Certification

Last edited by sdrucker; 04-11-2020 at 10:05 AM.
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post #11188 of 12084 Old 04-11-2020, 11:54 AM
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On the webinars, I've attended all of them except one I missed last year being on a vacation trip. These April ones have been training oriented vs the earlier marketing ones most of us have seen. More in-depth, more how-to demos. In every one I've learned 1 or 2 new things so these have been very worthwhile time-wise while we're stuck at home.

So a big thanks to Trinnov's people for developing & hosting these.

Steve
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post #11189 of 12084 Old 04-11-2020, 12:13 PM
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NEWBIE REW question. Trying to get REW running. For anyone using REW: It apparently expects my LFE to be on channel 4, which mine is not. So how do I have REW measure my LFE channel ?And after the LCR, none of my other channels are where REW wants them.
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post #11190 of 12084 Old 04-11-2020, 01:43 PM
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Thanks Lioarlan!

The MSO stuff looks pretty straight forward too me, but:

  • How do I export/import the necessary values from MSO into the Trinnov? I guess it is a manual process, but where in MSO can I produce that table? Is it via Config/Show Filter Report... ? This would look like this with the tutorial files from MSO:
Parameter Center freq (Hz) = 55.8206
Tunable? yes
Minimum allowable val = 20
Maximum allowable val = 150
Parameter Boost (dB) = -15
Tunable? yes
Minimum allowable val = -15
Maximum allowable val = 0
Parameter Q = 2.64602
Tunable? yes
Minimum allowable val = 1
Maximum allowable val = 25
RBJ (Robert Bristow-Johnson) parameters:
Q (RBJ) = 1.11582
Bandwidth (RBJ, in Hz) = 50.0265
Bandwidth (RBJ, in octaves) = 1.25318

FL2: LPF Linkwitz-Riley 24 dB/oct
Parameter Cutoff freq (Hz) = 150
Tunable? yes
Minimum allowable val = 40
Maximum allowable val = 150

FL3: Delay Block
Parameter Delay (msec) = 17.0587
Tunable? yes
Minimum allowable val = -20
Maximum allowable val = 20

FL4: Gain Block
Parameter Gain (dB) = -4.53969
Tunable? yes
Minimum allowable val = -15
Maximum allowable val = 15

  • In the Trinnov - I assume you just go to each Sub, click on the PEQ table and enter the values here, if I take the example from above. e.g. setting for Sub1:
    • Type: Peak Notch?
    • Freq.: 55.8206
    • Gain: -4.53969
    • Q: 2.64602
  • Is there a delay section in the Trinnov? In the above example I would need to add a Delay of 17.0587 msc somewhere, right?
Other questions:
  • You measure the REW files with just any calibrated sound card, noot with the Trinnov?
  • You let the Trinnov run the standard Callibration after you've entered the PEQs?
  • Bass MGMT: You don't do any XO settings in the Trinnov beforhand, you just apply bass management after the Callibration?
Thanks!
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