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post #11641 of 12081 Old 05-19-2020, 01:35 PM
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Auro disc not seen as Auro

I have the most recent Auro demo disc and the Altitude sees it as a DTS:HD sound track. In fact all of my Auro discs do that. Any ideas??
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post #11642 of 12081 Old 05-19-2020, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have the most recent Auro demo disc and the Altitude sees it as a DTS:HD sound track. In fact all of my Auro discs do that. Any ideas??

I have the same but some time it show auro i got some movies in auro get it from germany best of them is red tales and this movie always in trinnov show auro but the demo same as u see only rare time it recognized as auro


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post #11643 of 12081 Old 05-19-2020, 03:50 PM
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Good Evening guys,

Just wanted to share my experience with you all and hope to get some feedback. Up until recently I used to have an AL16 and used a miniDSP 2 x 4 HD for my 4 subs as I didn't want to use up much of the outputs on the AL16.

Now that I have a AL32 with more channels and 2 more subs, I did some measurements in REW to see what is going on.

The First picture is the measurement of 2 rear and 2 side subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD and the other 2 subs which are behind my AT screen connected to the Trinnov. I manually time aligned the 4 subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD and applied necessary filters to flatten the curve. The other two subs behind my AT screen are completely controlled bu the trinnov.


Second picture is of all the 6 x subs connected to the Trinnov directly.



Third picture is both in comparison.


I see that all subs connected to the Trinnov have a better result and therefore do not see the benefit of using the miniDSP in my setup. I appreciate the graph with all subs connected to the Trinnov is far from perfect but it does however seem to look better than the graph with the 4 connected via minidsp and the other 2 directly to the Trinnov.

I would really appreciate some feedback on this. I will try to apply some PEQ to flatten the peaks and maybe slightly try to bring up some of the little nulls.
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Name:	Picture 2 - All 6 subs all on the AL32.jpg
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post #11644 of 12081 Old 05-19-2020, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have the most recent Auro demo disc and the Altitude sees it as a DTS:HD sound track. In fact all of my Auro discs do that. Any ideas??
My understanding is that unlike DTS and Dolby, there isn't a metadata "flag" that tells the processor which decoder to use.

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post #11645 of 12081 Old 05-19-2020, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkohman View Post
Good Evening guys,



Just wanted to share my experience with you all and hope to get some feedback. Up until recently I used to have an AL16 and used a miniDSP 2 x 4 HD for my 4 subs as I didn't want to use up much of the outputs on the AL16.



Now that I have a AL32 with more channels and 2 more subs, I did some measurements in REW to see what is going on.



The First picture is the measurement of 2 rear and 2 side subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD and the other 2 subs which are behind my AT screen connected to the Trinnov. I manually time aligned the 4 subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD and applied necessary filters to flatten the curve. The other two subs behind my AT screen are completely controlled bu the trinnov.





Second picture is of all the 6 x subs connected to the Trinnov directly.







Third picture is both in comparison.





I see that all subs connected to the Trinnov have a better result and therefore do not see the benefit of using the miniDSP in my setup. I appreciate the graph with all subs connected to the Trinnov is far from perfect but it does however seem to look better than the graph with the 4 connected via minidsp and the other 2 directly to the Trinnov.



I would really appreciate some feedback on this. I will try to apply some PEQ to flatten the peaks and maybe slightly try to bring up some of the little nulls.
You've got a lot more flexibility in bass management now for assigning your smaller speakers bass to their nearest subwoofer too. Should help with the overall immersion and performance.

Sent from my TA-1012 using Tapatalk
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post #11646 of 12081 Old 05-19-2020, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkohman View Post
Good Evening guys,

Just wanted to share my experience with you all and hope to get some feedback. Up until recently I used to have an AL16 and used a miniDSP 2 x 4 HD for my 4 subs as I didn't want to use up much of the outputs on the AL16.

Now that I have a AL32 with more channels and 2 more subs, I did some measurements in REW to see what is going on.

The First picture is the measurement of 2 rear and 2 side subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD and the other 2 subs which are behind my AT screen connected to the Trinnov. I manually time aligned the 4 subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD and applied necessary filters to flatten the curve. The other two subs behind my AT screen are completely controlled bu the trinnov.


Second picture is of all the 6 x subs connected to the Trinnov directly.



Third picture is both in comparison.


I see that all subs connected to the Trinnov have a better result and therefore do not see the benefit of using the miniDSP in my setup. I appreciate the graph with all subs connected to the Trinnov is far from perfect but it does however seem to look better than the graph with the 4 connected via minidsp and the other 2 directly to the Trinnov.

I would really appreciate some feedback on this. I will try to apply some PEQ to flatten the peaks and maybe slightly try to bring up some of the little nulls.
Since I am also running my four subs direct to my SDP-75, and so far resisting having to buy a miniDSP and set it up, I am very happy to see the Trinnov lives up to their claims. Their recent webinar also hinted at more to come in the way of subwoofer integration. That said, I wonder how it would compare to e.g. MSO, something that does a more detailed analysis? Unless that is what you used? I suspect you'd improve the mininDSP results, although whether it would match or better Trinnov's native processing I do not know. Frankly, I hope not, as I don't have time to fiddle with a miniDSP right now...
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post #11647 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ReTrOToo View Post
You've got a lot more flexibility in bass management now for assigning your smaller speakers bass to their nearest subwoofer too. Should help with the overall immersion and performance.

Sent from my TA-1012 using Tapatalk

Thanks Richard, indeed, I agree. I have assigned these in Bass Management:


L C R crossover to subs at 100hz


LS, RS, LRS and RRS are all the same speakers and crossover at 100hz


LTF, RTF, LTR, RTR, OH are all in ceiling and I cross them over at 150hz but redirect them to the following:


LTF crossover at 150hz to the Front L channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs
RTF crossover at 150hz to the Front R channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs
LTR crossover at 150hz to the LS and LRS channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs
RTR crossover at 150hz to the RS and RRS channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs
OH crossover at 150hz to the LS, RS , LRS and RRS channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs


LH, CH and RH crossover to the FL, FR and C channel at 120hz and then from there on the all the 6 subs.

I need to re watch the webinar on bass management to make sure I am doing this correctly but it sounds fantastic so far Any tips and recommendations are much appreciated

Also on another note. Whilst I setup my Umik 1 mic for REW measures, I decided to use the SPL meter feature in REW to check the gain for all the channels and adjust if required. If I am not mistaken this is to be adjusted in the Processor > Output menu?

The way I did this was I went to the Output Menu on my AL, I mute every available channel including all the subs, then go into the room setup menu and press the pink noise generator button for every channel including the subs (bare in mind all the speakers are muted on the Output menu so nothing can be heard) . I then go back into the Output menu under Processor and unmute each channel at a time whilst checking the SPL meter in REW to match 75db and adjust the output gain one by one, muting the speaker I have just completed and moving onto the next one.

Once all complete, I save to a new pre-set in the output menu. I then go back to the room setup menu and uncheck the pink noise generator for all the channels, return to the Output menu and unmute every channel before actually saving the settings in the Pre set I am in.

I hope the above makes sense but I found this method a very easy way of doing things. It may have been easier to play the pink noise from the Input menu but after the usual 7.1.4 the remaining speakers do not show in the Input Menu as far as I can remember hence why I chose the room setup menu to play the pink noise tones. I hope this helps others when level matching each speaker

The AL16 and 32 does an amazing job and usually very accurate but I did notice some were out for me by a couple of db's here and there so made some adjustments and saved them to the pre set.
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post #11648 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Since I am also running my four subs direct to my SDP-75, and so far resisting having to buy a miniDSP and set it up, I am very happy to see the Trinnov lives up to their claims. Their recent webinar also hinted at more to come in the way of subwoofer integration. That said, I wonder how it would compare to e.g. MSO, something that does a more detailed analysis? Unless that is what you used? I suspect you'd improve the mininDSP results, although whether it would match or better Trinnov's native processing I do not know. Frankly, I hope not, as I don't have time to fiddle with a miniDSP right now...
In all honesty the miniDSP 2 x 4HD is an incredible piece of equipment and I think it's necessary for AL16 if you have multiple subs and want to keep your subs channels on the back to a minimum. I have learned a lot thanks to my dear friend @Ringnut from AVF and he has kindly spent hours throughout the years how to use REW and miniDSP 2 x 4HD. I am not an expert by any means but I do feel confident in doing what I need to within REW to a degree.


Since I have moved up to the AL and have more channels than I can cater for speakers, I decided to directly connect my 6 x subs directly to the AL32 to see what results it yields and as my previous post it seems to be better than having 4 x connected via the miniDSP and the other 2 directly to the AL32. I know even with all connected to the AL32 my final graph is not perfect but it still needs work which I am going to experiment with REW and applying PEQ to the sub channels (any tips and guidance would be appreciated )


I will on the other hand miss BassEQ as I was just getting into it with my miniDSP 2 x 4HD and I hope there will be an easy way to apply these settings to the Trinnov. I think there may already be a way by manually adding the EQ filters but it's probably not as smooth and easy to do as you will with the BEQ Designer program
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post #11649 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mkohman View Post
Also on another note. Whilst I setup my Umik 1 mic for REW measures, I decided to use the SPL meter feature in REW to check the gain for all the channels and adjust if required. If I am not mistaken this is to be adjusted in the Processor > Output menu?

The way I did this was I went to the Output Menu on my AL, I mute every available channel including all the subs, then go into the room setup menu and press the pink noise generator button for every channel including the subs (bare in mind all the speakers are muted on the Output menu so nothing can be heard) . I then go back into the Output menu under Processor and unmute each channel at a time whilst checking the SPL meter in REW to match 75db and adjust the output gain one by one, muting the speaker I have just completed and moving onto the next one.

Once all complete, I save to a new pre-set in the output menu. I then go back to the room setup menu and uncheck the pink noise generator for all the channels, return to the Output menu and unmute every channel before actually saving the settings in the Pre set I am in.

I hope the above makes sense but I found this method a very easy way of doing things. It may have been easier to play the pink noise from the Input menu but after the usual 7.1.4 the remaining speakers do not show in the Input Menu as far as I can remember hence why I chose the room setup menu to play the pink noise tones. I hope this helps others when level matching each speaker
I'm confused.

If the purpose of the above was to set levels prior to running Optimizer, that is the incorrect place to do so. Optimizer ignores those gain settings in the Output (and Input) menu. If your purpose was to set gains prior to Optimizer, that should be done in the in the Setup Tab and then the Active Crossover Tab.

If the purpose was to adjust AFTER Optimizer, then I am very confused. I have setup a number of Trinnov and one of the many things they do well is to get levels matched perfectly.

So what exactly were you trying to accomplish?
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post #11650 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
My understanding is that unlike DTS and Dolby, there isn't a metadata "flag" that tells the processor which decoder to use.

So to decode a non-flagged Auro encoded disc, one has to add Auro as an upmixer on top of whatever encoding it "assumes" is present? Or just play it as is and assume it's decoded correctly? I'm confused.

I have the demo disc although never played it. I also bought 2 music titles that have Auro encoded tracks as a playback option. Never occurred to me that they wouldn't be detected as Auro.

Steve
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post #11651 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkohman View Post
Thanks Richard, indeed, I agree. I have assigned these in Bass Management:


L C R crossover to subs at 100hz


LS, RS, LRS and RRS are all the same speakers and crossover at 100hz


LTF, RTF, LTR, RTR, OH are all in ceiling and I cross them over at 150hz but redirect them to the following:


LTF crossover at 150hz to the Front L channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs
RTF crossover at 150hz to the Front R channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs
LTR crossover at 150hz to the LS and LRS channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs
RTR crossover at 150hz to the RS and RRS channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs
OH crossover at 150hz to the LS, RS , LRS and RRS channel and then from 100hz goes to all the 6 subs


LH, CH and RH crossover to the FL, FR and C channel at 120hz and then from there on the all the 6 subs.

I need to re watch the webinar on bass management to make sure I am doing this correctly but it sounds fantastic so far Any tips and recommendations are much appreciated

Also on another note. Whilst I setup my Umik 1 mic for REW measures, I decided to use the SPL meter feature in REW to check the gain for all the channels and adjust if required. If I am not mistaken this is to be adjusted in the Processor > Output menu?

The way I did this was I went to the Output Menu on my AL, I mute every available channel including all the subs, then go into the room setup menu and press the pink noise generator button for every channel including the subs (bare in mind all the speakers are muted on the Output menu so nothing can be heard) . I then go back into the Output menu under Processor and unmute each channel at a time whilst checking the SPL meter in REW to match 75db and adjust the output gain one by one, muting the speaker I have just completed and moving onto the next one.

Once all complete, I save to a new pre-set in the output menu. I then go back to the room setup menu and uncheck the pink noise generator for all the channels, return to the Output menu and unmute every channel before actually saving the settings in the Pre set I am in.

I hope the above makes sense but I found this method a very easy way of doing things. It may have been easier to play the pink noise from the Input menu but after the usual 7.1.4 the remaining speakers do not show in the Input Menu as far as I can remember hence why I chose the room setup menu to play the pink noise tones. I hope this helps others when level matching each speaker

The AL16 and 32 does an amazing job and usually very accurate but I did notice some were out for me by a couple of db's here and there so made some adjustments and saved them to the pre set.

Just keep in mind that the 3D mic and SPL meter have about a 4dB difference. So 75dB on the Trinnov mic shows up as 79dB on my Radio Shack SPL meter. YMMV.
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post #11652 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
So to decode a non-flagged Auro encoded disc, one has to add Auro as an upmixer on top of whatever encoding it "assumes" is present? Or just play it as is and assume it's decoded correctly? I'm confused.

I have the demo disc although never played it. I also bought 2 music titles that have Auro encoded tracks as a playback option. Never occurred to me that they wouldn't be detected as Auro.
Here is a response I got from someone I trust on this subject:

Quote:
Chuck, was lurking in the Trinnov thread and saw your question about Auro. They encode (fold Auro mixes down to 5.1) while the audio is uncompressed PCM. These are delivered to movie theatres as .wav files (uncompressed PCM). For delivery on Blu-Ray, they have to use lossless packing. They're not going to use their rival Dolby's lossless codec (TrueHD), so they use the lossless codec from their frenemy DTS (DTS-HD MA). When the DTS-HD MA track is unpacked, you end up with an Auro-encoded 5.1 PCM track, which can be further decode by Auro3D to the original 5..1.4 mix. That's why Auro tracks look like DTS-HD MA tracks. Make sense?
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post #11653 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I'm confused.

If the purpose of the above was to set levels prior to running Optimizer, that is the incorrect place to do so. Optimizer ignores those gain settings in the Output (and Input) menu. If your purpose was to set gains prior to Optimizer, that should be done in the in the Setup Tab and then the Active Crossover Tab.

If the purpose was to adjust AFTER Optimizer, then I am very confused. I have setup a number of Trinnov and one of the many things they do well is to get levels matched perfectly.

So what exactly were you trying to accomplish?
I am aware of the Active Crossover gain settings, also aware that the Optimizer only takes into account settings done on the Active Crossover menu and the PEQ prior to calibration. I have done that in the past but I have been advised not to bother with it as the Optimizer will correct it anyway. What I was saying was, I already had the UMIK 1 mic out as I was doing measurement of my subs in REW and so I wanted to check and see all the speakers were playing at the same dB so that is why I went through the Output tab and adjusted them as not all were the same some needed to be raised and some needed to be lowered. Nothing major but a little.


So please in that case advise why those + and - dB options are in the Output tab and the Input tab? What is the use of those being there?


Also is it always best to do this in Active crossover before calibration? Thanks
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post #11654 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Here is a response I got from someone I trust on this subject:
Thanks Chuck for the info!


So play it back as 5.1 and add Auromatic upmixing to get all the channels. Like I said, never occurred to me that it wouldn't be straightforward. Makes me wonder why bother with Auro encoded music. Maybe the label should include instructions

Sure not a good way to enhance marketshare vs Dolby/DTS.

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post #11655 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 06:50 AM
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So please in that case advise why those + and - dB options are in the Output tab and the Input tab? What is the use of those being there?
Personal preference. Without being specific, when I calibrate a Trinnov, I set some of the channels with a "smidge" more output. The result of doing so is just a bit more immersive-ness. As I said, personal preference. I did the same when I calibrated Datasat systems.

Quote:
Also is it always best to do this in Active crossover before calibration? Thanks
Absolutely not. The only reason I use it is because my subs are set way higher (probably 15dB) than the rest of my speakers and access to their gain knobs is difficult since my subs are hidden within my room.
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post #11656 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Personal preference. Without being specific, when I calibrate a Trinnov, I set some of the channels with a "smidge" more output. The result of doing so is just a bit more immersive-ness. As I said, personal preference. I did the same when I calibrated Datasat systems.

Absolutely not. The only reason I use it is because my subs are set way higher (probably 15dB) than the rest of my speakers and access to their gain knobs is difficult since my subs are hidden within my room.
Thank you that makes sense. So what I was doing is that incorrect would you say? Once the optimization is complete is it best not to go and check the levels?

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Anyone here with a Zappiti media player. I've noticed when I play an Atmos soundtrack on a movie from a cold start up....the Altitude will show it as TrueHD, until I hit a surround mode...does not matter which one, then it changes it to Atmos. Is this normal? Or do I need to change a setting in the Zappiti somewhere. Once that is done, if I click on another movie, it will play Atmos.
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post #11658 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
Just keep in mind that the 3D mic and SPL meter have about a 4dB difference. So 75dB on the Trinnov mic shows up as 79dB on my Radio Shack SPL meter. YMMV.
Offhand, I would guess that is from the type of weighting (A, C, flat, etc) being applied to the SPL measurement.

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post #11659 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkohman View Post

Also on another note. Whilst I setup my Umik 1 mic for REW measures, I decided to use the SPL meter feature in REW to check the gain for all the channels and adjust if required. If I am not mistaken this is to be adjusted in the Processor > Output menu?

The way I did this was I went to the Output Menu on my AL, I mute every available channel including all the subs, then go into the room setup menu and press the pink noise generator button for every channel including the subs (bare in mind all the speakers are muted on the Output menu so nothing can be heard) . I then go back into the Output menu under Processor and unmute each channel at a time whilst checking the SPL meter in REW to match 75db and adjust the output gain one by one, muting the speaker I have just completed and moving onto the next one.

Once all complete, I save to a new pre-set in the output menu. I then go back to the room setup menu and uncheck the pink noise generator for all the channels, return to the Output menu and unmute every channel before actually saving the settings in the Pre set I am in.

I hope the above makes sense but I found this method a very easy way of doing things. It may have been easier to play the pink noise from the Input menu but after the usual 7.1.4 the remaining speakers do not show in the Input Menu as far as I can remember hence why I chose the room setup menu to play the pink noise tones. I hope this helps others when level matching each speaker

The AL16 and 32 does an amazing job and usually very accurate but I did notice some were out for me by a couple of db's here and there so made some adjustments and saved them to the pre set.
For verification of level matching, you can leave all channels unmuted but the sub output. And then generate your pink noise from the same Input page where you muted channels. Then adjust levels on the Output page if needed.
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post #11660 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 10:07 AM
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For verification of level matching, you can leave all channels unmuted but the sub output. And then generate your pink noise from the same Input page where you muted channels. Then adjust levels on the Output page if needed.
Indeed but some channels like OH and CH etc do not appear in the input tab for some reason. The only channels that appear in the Input Tab are those layouts that Trinnov recommend in the Room Layout Tab as far as I am aware of.
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post #11661 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 10:25 AM
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Indeed but some channels like OH and CH etc do not appear in the input tab for some reason. The only channels that appear in the Input Tab are those layouts that Trinnov recommend in the Room Layout Tab as far as I am aware of.
Change the decoder. If you are on Dolby, then only atmos channels show up. Select DTS and the other channels will populate.
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post #11662 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 12:09 PM
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Anyone here with a Zappiti media player. I've noticed when I play an Atmos soundtrack on a movie from a cold start up....the Altitude will show it as TrueHD, until I hit a surround mode...does not matter which one, then it changes it to Atmos. Is this normal? Or do I need to change a setting in the Zappiti somewhere. Once that is done, if I click on another movie, it will play Atmos.
New Zappiti media player review at:

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...hAxf0W24_FRp5M

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post #11663 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 02:58 PM
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New Zappiti media player review at:

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...hAxf0W24_FRp5M
Unfortunately their player uses the Realtek 1295, it has UHD banding and frame drop issues that none of the players using it have been able to overcome. Ziddo has fixed it on their Realtek 1296 players but both Ziddo and Dune are moving to the next generation Realtek 1619 for their upcoming players putting this 2 generations back. But the packaged NAS should be independent of their player.
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post #11664 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 02:59 PM
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I have the most recent Auro demo disc and the Altitude sees it as a DTS:HD sound track. In fact all of my Auro discs do that. Any ideas??
Check n.3 from the manual, below:
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post #11665 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
New Zappiti media player review at:

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...hAxf0W24_FRp5M


Any idea how Zappiti get's around the copy protection laws?
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post #11666 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 04:14 PM
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Recently my Altitude 32 had not outputted on Ceneter channel with AppleTV. Today with Panny UB820 I tried playing the new Top Gun Atmos 4k disk and still no center output. I tried native as well as Auro for decoder setting. Did a hard boot of Altitude still no center channel output. Decoder shows all channels in input and every other channel is being sent to amps. Suggestions?
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post #11667 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 04:17 PM
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Any idea how Zappiti get's around the copy protection laws?
I just posted the link to the review, as Dan asked about the Zappiti player. Not my legal expertise.

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post #11668 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 04:18 PM
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Check n.3 from the manual, below:

Thanks. Amazing what you can find in a manual. Good to know!!
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post #11669 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 04:22 PM
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Unfortunately their player uses the Realtek 1295, it has UHD banding and frame drop issues that none of the players using it have been able to overcome. Ziddo has fixed it on their Realtek 1296 players but both Ziddo and Dune are moving to the next generation Realtek 1619 for their upcoming players putting this 2 generations back.


They will have a new player based upon the new chips at the end of this year. My issue is that they currently don't pass HDR metadata, though they have told me those with a Lumagen will have a workaround. The new chip will provide a solution to some if not all of these video issues.



Quote:
But the packaged NAS should be independent of their player.
I don't think it is. But it is worth asking!!
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post #11670 of 12081 Old 05-20-2020, 04:48 PM
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Any idea how Zappiti get's around the copy protection laws?

Probably the same way that MakeMKV and other such packages do. I can't image the player has any legal constraints but the Ripper could. I'm not convinced that the movie industry really care about 500 or 1000 or 4000 people making copies of movies they already own. Their target should be those who make copies and sell them directly taking money away from the studios.
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