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post #11731 of 12081 Old 05-26-2020, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by aguy View Post
Question for all

I am about to install my altitude 16. Do most people here use a ups for their altitudes. It is a computer after all. ?

Thanks
I have an Altitude32 and use a PS Audio Power Plant 3. The THD reduces from About 2.8% to less then 0.1%. I also have a UPS which reduces the 2.8% to about 0.5%. I used a P15 to get these values. The P3 is great value for money.

Best regards, Jan
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post #11732 of 12081 Old 05-26-2020, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JeanSibelius View Post
I have an Altitude32 and use a PS Audio Power Plant 3. The THD reduces from About 2.8% to less then 0.1%. I also have a UPS which reduces the 2.8% to about 0.5%. I used a P15 to get these values. The P3 is great value for money.

Best regards, Jan
The UPS is there only to shut down the NAS in the rare situation of a power disruption here in the Netherlands.

Trinnov Altitude32|VAC Signature 200 IQ’s|Parasound JC-1’s+A51|Synology DS918+/DX517|Oppo UDP-203
Von Schweikert VR10 MK2|Dynaudio Confidence C4|Velodyne DD-18|JVC DLA-RS55|StewartLX123HST13
Artesania Exoteryc 3L + Aire racks|Schnerzinger Emi+Giga Picolo A3|PS Audio Power Plant 3
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post #11733 of 12081 Old 05-26-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mkohman View Post
Thanks Berland, I absolutely agree, infact I experienced this tonight. I used to tweak the Advanced settings to maximum correct 14db rather than 5db and changed the cycles to 8 at 1/6 and I used to get much cleaner flat graphs, however I saved that in another preset and left the original preset after calibration on it's own. Switching from one preset to the other, I realised the non tweaked preset sounded better to my ears and more natural. Also I everytime I carry out a calibration my LFH , RFH and CH always do not place accurately above my LCR so I am now forced to not use 3D remapping, and I think I actually prefer not using it too. I feel that the sound is slightly better without the remapping...


Can you show your LCR Heights or explain where you have them located?

I am planning on using the Cineramax/Cinema/Anthony G/Trinnov suggestions of tighter spacing for my Tops but I’m also placing an extra DTS-X dedicated set of LCR Heights directly above their ear level base channels.

I am also doing this in the rear but using those as a “Trio Format” approach so that all formats use them.

So in total I will have 3 Rear Heights, 8 Tops Plus VOG, and 3 Front Heights. This will allow for tighter spacing for Tops while also fitting DTS format more closely while not having to use remapping since all speakers will be placed exactly where they would be in a Studio.

My thinking is that the rear channels will be perfectly fine in the “Trio Format” scenario and that it would be hard to tell between remapping vs standard playback so having extra speaker locations in the front that will only play per format worth the extra costs involved.

Peter (Cineramax) is all about it as well and he has been a major influence of my plans since I started down this renovation path back a few years ago at CEDIA. My wife and I made the trip to hear the Alcons room and JBL room so that we could choose which we preferred.

Bests
Alex


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post #11734 of 12081 Old 05-26-2020, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Can you show your LCR Heights or explain where you have them located?

I am planning on using the Cineramax/Cinema/Anthony G/Trinnov suggestions of tighter spacing for my Tops but I’m also placing an extra DTS-X dedicated set of LCR Heights directly above their ear level base channels.

I am also doing this in the rear but using those as a “Trio Format” approach so that all formats use them.

So in total I will have 3 Rear Heights, 8 Tops Plus VOG, and 3 Front Heights. This will allow for tighter spacing for Tops while also fitting DTS format more closely while not having to use remapping since all speakers will be placed exactly where they would be in a Studio.

My thinking is that the rear channels will be perfectly fine in the “Trio Format” scenario and that it would be hard to tell between remapping vs standard playback so having extra speaker locations in the front that will only play per format worth the extra costs involved.

Peter (Cineramax) is all about it as well and he has been a major influence of my plans since I started down this renovation path back a few years ago at CEDIA. My wife and I made the trip to hear the Alcons room and JBL room so that we could choose which we preferred.

Bests
Alex


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My height L C R are exactly above my LCR channels.. Please see attached pic.
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post #11735 of 12081 Old 05-26-2020, 03:59 PM
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**UPDATE**

I managed to spend a few hours reconnecting everything to the miniDSP first then measuring each sub individually before time aligning them to each other one at a time to get them to work perfectly together as a one big sub team

As I use BEQ, The aim is to get a flat curve with a very little house curve at the low end and then hand it over to the AL32 to carry out the optimization.

The attached picture is a comparison of all my measurement results.. So here it goes:

RED - All 6 x subs connected directly to the AL32 and optimization has been carried out. The graph is the end result of this.

BLUE - All 6 subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD in 2 singles and 2 groups as there is only 4 outputs on the miniDSP. So Output 1 was my Front Left Sub, Output 2 Front Right Sub, Output 3 my Side Subs and Output 4 my Rear Subs. After aligning them all together to work as one I did some EQ within the miniDSP and the result of my 6 subs is the Blue Line.

GREEN - This is the exact same steps as above (BLUE) however after EQ I handed it over to the AL32 to carry out optimization and the green graph is representing that which is true to the original graph I created with EQ in REW . The Trinnov only slightly raised the low end a little but the rest of the graph is intact like I made earlier in REW

The post optimization result of all 6 subs directly connected to the AL32 is a little worrying in the sense that the graph was not EQ'd out nicely as far as the graph goes.

I have decided to stick with my minDSP as this gives me a lot more control as can be proven in the graphs attached

Just wanted to keep you posted.. So the current status of my subs + my EQ in REW + optimization is the Green Graph

By the way there is no smoothing any of the graphs.

I do add a subtle Target Curve to a preset in a addition to when I am not watching a movie with BEQ.
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post #11736 of 12081 Old 05-26-2020, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkohman View Post
**UPDATE**



I managed to spend a few hours reconnecting everything to the miniDSP first then measuring each sub individually before time aligning them to each other one at a time to get them to work perfectly together as a one big sub team



As I use BEQ, The aim is to get a flat curve with a very little house curve at the low end and then hand it over to the AL32 to carry out the optimization.



The attached picture is a comparison of all my measurement results.. So here it goes:



RED - All 6 x subs connected directly to the AL32 and optimization has been carried out. The graph is the end result of this.



BLUE - All 6 subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD in 2 singles and 2 groups as there is only 4 outputs on the miniDSP. So Output 1 was my Front Left Sub, Output 2 Front Right Sub, Output 3 my Side Subs and Output 4 my Rear Subs. After aligning them all together to work as one I did some EQ within the miniDSP and the result of my 6 subs is the Blue Line.



GREEN - This is the exact same steps as above (BLUE) however after EQ I handed it over to the AL32 to carry out optimization and the green graph is representing that which is true to the original graph I created with EQ in REW . The Trinnov only slightly raised the low end a little but the rest of the graph is intact like I made earlier in REW



The post optimization result of all 6 subs directly connected to the AL32 is a little worrying in the sense that the graph was not EQ'd out nicely as far as the graph goes.



I have decided to stick with my minDSP as this gives me a lot more control as can be proven in the graphs attached



Just wanted to keep you posted.. So the current status of my subs + my EQ in REW + optimization is the Green Graph



By the way there is no smoothing any of the graphs.



I do add a subtle Target Curve to a preset in a addition to when I am not watching a movie with BEQ.


Was the “red line” with all the subs direct to the AL32, setup so that each sub / sub group was a separate subwoofer (each optimized separately), or did you use the Active Crossover tab (setting gains and delays), so that all subs /sub groups functioned as one large subwoofer (an optimized as one subwoofer), like the MiniDSP is doing.


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post #11737 of 12081 Old 05-27-2020, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Was the “red line” with all the subs direct to the AL32, setup so that each sub / sub group was a separate subwoofer (each optimized separately), or did you use the Active Crossover tab (setting gains and delays), so that all subs /sub groups functioned as one large subwoofer (an optimized as one subwoofer), like the MiniDSP is doing.


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Every sub (all six) were individually connected to the AL32 on its own seperate channels and the measurement in REW was taken with all the subs turned on at the same time.



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post #11738 of 12081 Old 05-27-2020, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkohman View Post
**UPDATE**

I managed to spend a few hours reconnecting everything to the miniDSP first then measuring each sub individually before time aligning them to each other one at a time to get them to work perfectly together as a one big sub team

As I use BEQ, The aim is to get a flat curve with a very little house curve at the low end and then hand it over to the AL32 to carry out the optimization.

The attached picture is a comparison of all my measurement results.. So here it goes:

RED - All 6 x subs connected directly to the AL32 and optimization has been carried out. The graph is the end result of this.

BLUE - All 6 subs connected to the miniDSP 2 x 4HD in 2 singles and 2 groups as there is only 4 outputs on the miniDSP. So Output 1 was my Front Left Sub, Output 2 Front Right Sub, Output 3 my Side Subs and Output 4 my Rear Subs. After aligning them all together to work as one I did some EQ within the miniDSP and the result of my 6 subs is the Blue Line.

GREEN - This is the exact same steps as above (BLUE) however after EQ I handed it over to the AL32 to carry out optimization and the green graph is representing that which is true to the original graph I created with EQ in REW . The Trinnov only slightly raised the low end a little but the rest of the graph is intact like I made earlier in REW

The post optimization result of all 6 subs directly connected to the AL32 is a little worrying in the sense that the graph was not EQ'd out nicely as far as the graph goes.

I have decided to stick with my minDSP as this gives me a lot more control as can be proven in the graphs attached

Just wanted to keep you posted.. So the current status of my subs + my EQ in REW + optimization is the Green Graph

By the way there is no smoothing any of the graphs.

I do add a subtle Target Curve to a preset in a addition to when I am not watching a movie with BEQ.

The AL32 sub optimization x6 individual /direct channels is a little concerning to me. Why is it not EQ ‘ing this better if it has individual and direct control of each sub ?
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post #11739 of 12081 Old 05-27-2020, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by blake View Post
The AL32 sub optimization x6 individual /direct channels is a little concerning to me. Why is it not EQ ‘ing this better if it has individual and direct control of each sub ?
That was my exact thoughts too and once I disconnected then reconnected all subs back to my miniDSP 2x4HD and did my own EQ (BLUE GRAPH) then ran the optimization so Trinnov only sees all 6 subs as 1 sub, the result was very similar (GREEN GRAPH) to my EQ filter result in REW.

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post #11740 of 12081 Old 05-27-2020, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mkohman View Post
That was my exact thoughts too and once I disconnected then reconnected all subs back to my miniDSP 2x4HD and did my own EQ (BLUE GRAPH) then ran the optimization so Trinnov only sees all 6 subs as 1 sub, the result was very similar (GREEN GRAPH) to my EQ filter result in REW.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk


This is what I thought you were doing. You don’t want to AL32 to optimize each sub individually, but as a whole, like you are doing with the MiniDSP.

Set the Sub channel up as a 4-way speaker, using the Active Crossover tab. Then set the gain and delays for each sub to align them, then when you run optimizer it will optimize them as one large subwoofer, like MiniDSP is doing.

The way you currently have it setup would be as if you EQ’d the 4 separate outputs on the MiniDSP separately, then just turned them all on a took a measurement.



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post #11741 of 12081 Old 05-27-2020, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
This is what I thought you were doing. You don’t want to AL32 to optimize each sub individually, but as a whole, like you are doing with the MiniDSP.

Set the Sub channel up as a 4-way speaker, using the Active Crossover tab. Then set the gain and delays for each sub to align them, then when you run optimizer it will optimize them as one large subwoofer, like MiniDSP is doing.

The way you currently have it setup would be as if you EQ’d the 4 separate outputs on the MiniDSP separately, then just turned them all on a took a measurement.



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Exactly. What mkohman has done is prove Adam's and other posters' argument that treating the individual subs as separate output channels (S1-S6), and then measuring them playing together in his "RED" measurement in REW, does not optimally capture the interaction of the subs as a summated sub response (single large sub) as he's seeing with the BLUE and GREEN measurements. That's not so much a limitation of the Altitude as a limitation of setting multiple subs as individual channels on the Speaker Configuration Menu vs. having them operate as channels in an n-way sub (speaker) in the Active Crossover menu. You can set level and delay there for the individual subs if you've measured them with a tool like MSO for an optimized calculation for the overall bass response, and the Altitude will then measure the level/delay and use PEQ for the single summated sub response - just make sure that you copy "global" sub PEQ to all ways to get the PEQ to work correctly. Jon Herron discussed the Active Crossover approach in some of the Trinnov training sessions over the past month.

While the answer with just the Altitude 32 in play is to use the Active Crossover options for an n-way setup as mkohman's doing with the MiniDSP, there's a limitation in the current software that only allows four drivers (subs) on that menu. That would be an argument for using a MiniDSP to manage the six subs together so the Altitude is just dealing with the summated sub response. Supposedly a future software releases will allow an unlimited number of subs to be set up in Active Crossover, as Jon had indicated was in the pipeline.

Once that's done, whether you want to use the Altitude's Active Crossover or MiniDSP to manage the individual subs, and their level/delay (and/or individual PEQ settings) is a matter of taste. If you're doing the management in the Altitude, you're using up six channels for subs rather than one, which could be used for additional speakers for 3D audio or for other speakers that have an active driver design. On an Altitude 16, it would be a relatively inefficient use of the available channels if you have a 3D audio setup, but that's less of an issue on the A32 if you have the channels to burn.
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Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
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Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides/Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, Image B6 screens, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 13.4.6
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post #11742 of 12081 Old 05-27-2020, 10:36 AM
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The AL32 sub optimization x6 individual /direct channels is a little concerning to me. Why is it not EQ ‘ing this better if it has individual and direct control of each sub ?
Because it applies Room Optimization per output when configured that way, and that is not how multiple subwoofers behave in small rooms. Nothing to be concerned about. That is why I and many others recommend setting the subwoofers up as a multi-way speaker or using external DSP.

EDIT : What everyone else also said.

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post #11743 of 12081 Old 05-27-2020, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
MiniDSP is coming up with an Ambisonics inspired mic:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...ment/ambimik-1

However it seems it's designed for VR and music recording applications. So a 3D mic but not necessarily one that's doing what the Trinnov Mic is doing, or for measuring the room towards acoustic correction.
I use an A-Format mic, the Tetramic, and then decode B-Format data that includes not only the room reflections, but the direction that they are coming from. B-Format Data can be de-convolved from log sine sweeps to produce a room impulse response with directional data. This is helpful for room design or verifying a system. One can also re-convolve the impulse response and listen on headphones to the sound signature of any room. This is a fairly expensive outlay that requires both the mic and a 4 channel audio device with 0.1 dB gain adjustment. The ambiMIK-1 may allow one to perform acoustic testing at a much cheaper price point and simpler connections.

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post #11744 of 12081 Old 05-27-2020, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Because it applies Room Optimization per output when configured that way, and that is not how multiple subwoofers behave in small rooms. Nothing to be concerned about. That is why I and many others recommend setting the subwoofers up as a multi-way speaker or using external DSP.

EDIT : What everyone else also said.
Yup and I believe over the last month or 2 multiple times (& ways) by multiple posters including you, Stu, me and others. Room physics hasn't changed.

I think these last graphs tell the story: combined & time aligned, either in a minidsp type device or inside the Altitude using the multi-way approach showed excellent overall response. Doing them individually showed choppier response for each one. The why's don't matter, the end result does.

Hope these graphs settle the matter that the optimum approach to multiple subs for home sized rooms is what we've all been saying

Steve

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post #11745 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
You can set level and delay there for the individual subs if you've measured them with a tool like MSO for an optimized calculation for the overall bass response, and the Altitude will then measure the level/delay and use PEQ for the single summated sub response - just make sure that you copy "global" sub PEQ to all ways to get the PEQ to work correctly.
.
Is there no way for the Altitude itself to measure and report the level/delays of your individual subs, so you don’t have to use an external tool like MSO? The altitude is such a powerful device , I am surprised there is no way to automate the process of measuring the subs individually then calibrating as a single summated response.

Is this how the highest tier of Dirac Bass Control Module does it ?


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post #11746 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 05:03 AM
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Is there no way for the Altitude itself to measure and report the level/delays of your individual subs, so you don’t have to use an external tool like MSO? The altitude is such a powerful device , I am surprised there is no way to automate the process of measuring the subs individually then calibrating as a single summated response.
blake - sure there is. I'll give you some steps:

1. Create a preset for your subs as independent subs on separate outputs.
2. Run Optimizer
3. Look at the Optimizer Settings tab - Summary view
4. Note the following numbers for the Subs - "Level C Compensated" and "Delay Compensated msec"

5. Take the difference between these for subs. For example if Sub 1 is 80 db and Sub 2 is 82 db then Sub 2 difference is 2 db. Same for delay, for example if one of the subs is 0 ms (the reference sub) and Sub 2 is 1.5 ms, then the delay for Sub 2 will be 1.5 ms. You are done using this preset.
6. Go to your normal presets. Go to each one's Speaker Setup page and set a single Sub 1 for use as a multi-way then go to the active crossover page to finish setting them up as 2 way, 3 way etc "speaker". You will enter the level difference and delay difference on this page at the bottom. Save the crossover settings and save presets. You now can set any PEQs on the Sub back on the Speaker Setup page if you have developed some using some room measuring software. Not mandatory but you can if you want to fine tune.
7. Run Optimizer on each preset with this "combined" Sub.

This should get you in the ballpark but as some have noted, the Altitude's calculated delays may or may not be the "best". You may want to fine tune the delay & levels with REW, Omnimic etc and then replace the ones you entered on the active crossover page with these new ones. Save changes and save the presets.

I hope this helps. The Altitude is a powerful processor with lots of tools. All of us have been through or are still going through the learning curve on what it can do, and how to do things. But perhaps a bit unfair to continue questioning that it can't do something just because you haven't learned how yet We're here to help!

I've attached 2 screenshots from my own Altitude when I made the transition from independent to a combined sub. I have since gone to a Xilica external DSP to do this fine-tuning with delays and levels (time alignment) instead of the Altitudes multi-way; I made this change since I have the A16, wanted to add more subs and didn't have more outputs.

Would it be nice for this to be automated? Sure. Maybe in the future it can be. It would entail not only pinging each sub like in the independent scenario but save that data in memory to be used on the active xover page. I don't know the math behind the covers but clearly MSO is pretty complicated math-wise. Assuming the math is developed and their mic measurements aren't too high a hurdle, programmatically it could be done using variables based on options the user selects, number of "phantom drivers" entered, etc. Takes lots of time money and available programming resources and would be MSO like but behind the scenes. But doing this has to fit in with Trinnov's overall priorities for future capabilities. They have Imax Enhanced, other enhancements on the table and I believe looking into more with the bass/sub management side so time will tell. In the meantime, there's ways to do this w/o resorting to MSO
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post #11747 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 05:35 AM
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I hope this helps. The Altitude is a powerful processor with lots of tools [And still the best on the planet with the most sophisticated set of adjustable parameters]. All of us have been through or are still going through the learning curve on what it can do, and how to do things. But perhaps a bit unfair to continue questioning that it can't do something [Or that is does not do something the way you think it should] just because you haven't learned how yet We're here to help!
And the best part: They continue to improve it. They have already noted (on one of the Podcasts) that they are continuing to work on improving the way it handles bass management.
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post #11748 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 06:00 AM
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^^
Deja vu - saw "assuming things" posts a lot in old Ice amp Pioneer threads and ended up exiting the threads after ~10 years of learning my own Pioneer gear & trying to help many many hundreds of folks, posting nearly on a daily basis - many were grateful for the help & learned something but quite a few didn't accept knowledgeable people giving accurate answers or worse, childishly debating the person over them.

Someone named me one of the Pio Gurus while member ccotenj was the Pio Pied Piper With the Altitude, I know I'm past newborn but not sure how far

The Trinnov forum is where "adults" can hang out and I'm better now
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post #11749 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
^^
Deja vu - saw this so much in old Ice amp Pioneer threads and ended up exiting the threads after ~8 years of learning my own Pioneer gear & trying to help folks - many were grateful for the help but quite a few didn't accept knowledgeable people giving accurate answers or worse childishly wanted to debate folks over them.

Someone named me one of the Pio Gurus while member ccotenj was the Pio Pied Piper With the Altitude, I know I'm past newborn but not sure how far
That's where I met you guys on AVS. He was also the guy that got me into external measuring when he became a convert to Audyssey Pro and talked about how to fine tune results with Omnimic to use with their version of a Target Curve Editor. Owning a Denon 4311 and the Pro Kit...seems like it was at some point in the Bronze Age rather than a mere seven years ago....

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The Trinnov forum is where "adults" can hang out and I'm better now
Agreed. That's why it's nice that we have so many owners here these days. For the first couple of years, this was more of an Anticipation Thread with some pro talk than an owners thread, but it's evolved nicely to reflect the community and share knowledge.
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post #11750 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
blake - sure there is. I'll give you some steps:

1. Create a preset for your subs as independent subs on separate outputs.
2. Run Optimizer
3. Look at the Optimizer Settings tab - Summary view
4. Note the following numbers for the Subs - "Level C Compensated" and "Delay Compensated msec"

5. Take the difference between these for subs. For example if Sub 1 is 80 db and Sub 2 is 82 db then Sub 2 difference is 2 db. Same for delay, for example if one of the subs is 0 ms (the reference sub) and Sub 2 is 1.5 ms, then the delay for Sub 2 will be 1.5 ms. You are done using this preset.
Just to expand a little further on Steve's point, if you have more than two subs, you would set one sub (which one is arbitrary) as a reference point of 0 db, and offset all other subs relative to that sub. So to illustrate, if you have four subs, sub 1 might be 0 db and the other subs would be less than or more than 0 (positive or negative) relative to that sub.

With the delay in ms, you would set the sub with the shortest delay to 0 ms and have the other subs offset relative to that...all delay numbers need to be positive.

Quote:
This should get you in the ballpark but as some have noted, the Altitude's calculated delays may or may not be the "best". You may want to fine tune the delay & levels with REW, Omnimic etc and then replace the ones you entered on the active crossover page with these new ones. Save changes and save the presets.
It gets you in the ballpark if you believe in level matching (as opposed to gain matching), but these measurements are for individual subs operating independently. It doesn't tell you how the level and delays to be set would optimally make the subs work together as a single sub response by capturing their interaction.

Consequently while you can measure delay automagically, that doesn't mean that these measurements are the best ones for aligning the subs together. It's not so much a Trinnov issue as a subwoofer alignment issue in general. Automagic software that measures level and delay automatically does so using this approach, i.e. Audyssey, Anthem's room correction, and the like. Presumably Dirac in their Bass Control is doing the same for multiple sub measurement in their Complete tier, but it's early days to see it in actual prepros to know beyond the marketing level what it's doing.

That's why a tool like MSO is so powerful because it uses an algorithm to find the optimization point for the subs working together. However, it's designed for multiple position measurement, not optimizing. The other exceptions are ARCOS and the old SFM for Harman's Synthesis line. And note the latter two were for pro calibrators and were expensive.

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Would it be nice for this to be automated? Sure. Maybe in the future it can be. It would entail not only pinging each sub like in the independent scenario but save that data in memory to be used on the active xover page. I don't know the math behind the covers but clearly MSO is pretty complicated math-wise. Assuming the math is developed and their mic measurements aren't too high a hurdle, programmatically it could be done using variables based on options the user selects, number of "phantom drivers" entered, etc. Takes lots of time money and available programming resources and would be MSO like but behind the scenes. But doing this has to fit in with Trinnov's overall priorities for future capabilities. They have Imax Enhanced, other enhancements on the table and I believe looking into more with the bass/sub management side so time will tell. In the meantime, there's ways to do this w/o resorting to MSO
Sure, but MSO isn't THAT hard to use with some practice ...

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post #11751 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 10:39 AM
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Reason 406 to have an Altitude: Tidal is now supporting Dolby Atmos for a broad set of devices. See here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...E#68ff1d736cce

I just installed the Tidal App my Apple TV. Once you log in or set up the trial if you don't have an account, you'll be told that your system supports Dolby Atmos and you will start seeing Dolby Atmos content on the list of clips when you open Tidal (it might take a little scrolling).

I’ve listened to the first clip from “Atmos for Androids”, which seems like 7.1.4. Putting on REM’s ”Automatic for the People”. I’m seeing all my speakers lighting up on Everybody Hurts, and I’m getting Dolby Atmos on the inputs. Yay!

Also played All I Want to Do by Sheryl Crow and I'm getting what sounds like discrete content out of my wides on the chorus - acoustic guitar distinct from what you're hearing in the mains or front heights, as well as almost all my speakers lighting up (i.e. front and rear heights, then the top middles playing some vocals at a subdued level on the chorus, but not the left/right centers except on one REM cut). Double Yay! This is what we've been waiting for, some of us....something that's not just marketing speak for an upmixer or virtualizer for headphones...

One thing I am curious about, which might fall into "a difference that is no difference is no difference": since I have the BluRay for REM's album in Atmos, I wonder if it's the same Atmos mix as on the BD or one done specifically for "Atmos Music". Don't have the time now but I might A/B it to see, if Adam or Chuck doesn't beat me to the punch...
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post #11752 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Reason 406 to have an Altitude: Tidal is now supporting Dolby Atmos for a broad set of devices. See here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...E#2b0f96666cce

I just installed the Tidal App my Apple TV. Once you log in or set up the trial if you don't have an account, you'll be told that your system supports Dolby Atmos and you will start seeing Dolby Atmos content on the list of clips when you open Tidal (it might take a little scrolling).

I’ve listened to the first clip from “Atmos for Androids”, which seems like 7.1.4. Putting on REM’s ”Automatic for the People”. I’m seeing all my speakers lighting up on Everybody Hurts, and I’m getting Dolby Atmos on the inputs. Yay!

Also played All I Want to Do by Sheryl Crow and I'm getting what sounds like discrete content out of my wides on the chorus - acoustic guitar distinct from what you're hearing in the mains or front heights, as well as almost all my speakers lighting up (i.e. front and rear heights, then the top middles playing some vocals at a subdued level on the chorus, but not the left/right centers except on one REM cut). Double Yay! This is what we've been waiting for, some of us....something that's not just marketing speak for an upmixer or virtualizer for headphones...

One thing I am curious about, which might fall into "a difference that is no difference is no difference": since I have the BluRay for REM's album in Atmos, I wonder if it's the same Atmos mix as on the BD or one done specifically for "Atmos Music". Don't have the time now but I might A/B it to see, if Adam or Chuck doesn't beat me to the punch...
Link is a 404 error page

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post #11753 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 12:26 PM
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Link is a 404 error page
Sorry, it got corrupted. Try here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...E#68ff1d736cce

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post #11754 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 12:51 PM
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Reason 406 to have an Altitude: Tidal is now supporting Dolby Atmos for a broad set of devices.
Good news! Heading in the right direction for Atmos music.

I do love the content on Qobuz - I've found classic jazz artists that just aren't available on physical media, rock & jazz albums that are long out of print or on vinyl only, all kinds of classic rock as well as huge library of classical & world. I have quite a few of these bookmarked in my Roon library and would hate to lose them. So I hope Qobuz also decides to carry Atmos titles. I'll definitely look into what Tidal has. And IF Tidal introduces a low cost Atmos-only plan, I'd sign up for sure. But I'm not sure I'd want to swap or subscribe to both.

Stu, do they have Atmos titles organized so you can do a search just for them? I may be calling soon

Steve

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post #11755 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 04:11 PM
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My subs are independent for now. I've resisted the miniDSP route for a variety of reasons, and bought a unit with enough channels for my four subs and all the other speakers I am likely to get (mostly limited by room size). And I miss Chris, too; for all its quirks, my Pio in combination with an active crossover to my subs (similar to what folk say to do now with the Trinnov, treated my L/R and pair of subs as two "large" speakers) and after a bunch of tweaking to the Pio's settings provided about the best response I have had. The Trinnov (SDP-75 in my case) does better for everything but the subs; I have a feeling Steve's scheme will get me there, or very close.

SFM is available on the JBL Synthesis models but requires on-site cal from JBL or someone like Adam or Curt who can do it for you (which may also require a visit). Your dealer can also help if you want to go the miniDSP route and take the measurements to be sent to JBL for processing.

The last webinar, on Optimizer graphs and settings, was one I most wanted to see but I ended up having to work and missing it. I caught a bit here and there. At that one, or one of them, MSO was brought up. Jon or David said they were researching bass management improvements that were less "brute force" than MSO and some of the other solutions (not that they do not work). No hints as to when something might be released. Given all the processing already going on, it would not seem to be a horrible stretch to have the Altitude work on the combined sub response to provide a better solution -- all the data are there.

In the meantime I'll print out and wade through Steve's post and sdrucker's follow-up to see if I can do better. My room has some nasty nulls I cannot completely get out of so I went to four subs. I had them dialed in with my Pioneer, and later Emotiva XMC-1, but have not had the time to piddle with them using my SDP-75 yet.

Query: It looks like the subs were left full-range, in the speaker setup, true? In my case I would add an additional (single) speaker as a four-way (I have four subs), set level and delay after the Optimizer runs once to tell me what they are independently, then run the Optimizer again with the new speaker (actually a hybrid four-sub speaker)?

Thanks guys! - Don

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post #11756 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 05:46 PM
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^^
Hi Don - I've been reading your posts and if I missed saying this, welcome to Trinnov/JBL world! Still have the Maggies? Or did you go JBL all the way or something else?

I still have mine, although I did finally swap the 3.6's for 20.7's. Don't know if I needed to do it but it was going to be my final stop in speakers so what the heck. This may not be a surprise to you, but being wider, they took more effort in placement, greater toe in angle for the Altitude's measurements compared to the 3.6's and I had to pull them out more to reduce the increased mid-bass. I do like them but after making the change, I concluded that the 3 series really is the sweet spot for Maggies which IIRC was your position for years
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post #11757 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 05:52 PM
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Just a quick question, noticed on some videos and other forums people are getting the Altitude 16 and are using like 18 speakers on it or even more. like running 2 pairs of side surrounds instead of one (say one pair for each row if they have two rows) i think it's just basically running them parallel right ?

It's not something i would do but what would the cons be , one for sure is that the EQ won't be optimal as they won't each get calibrated properly.


They even talk about it the last few mins of this video

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post #11758 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 09:32 PM
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Just a quick question, noticed on some videos and other forums people are getting the Altitude 16 and are using like 18 speakers on it or even more. like running 2 pairs of side surrounds instead of one (say one pair for each row if they have two rows) i think it's just basically running them parallel right ?

It's not something i would do but what would the cons be , one for sure is that the EQ won't be optimal as they won't each get calibrated properly.


They even talk about it the last few mins of this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4-Qzo-S2DI
Have to be in parallel, yes. Well, they'd be EQ'd (and time-aligned) as a group, which may or may not matter depending upon your room and application. In a large venue like a theater or church the delay would not be correct which could be an issue. In a home probably not a big deal.

I recently noticed my SDP-75 is actually a 24-channel model; I had ordered a 16-channel refurb (hey, someone has to be the cheapskate in the group). Not complaining about the extra channels, but now there's the temptation to buy more speakers, blah.
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post #11759 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 09:56 PM
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^^
Hi Don - I've been reading your posts and if I missed saying this, welcome to Trinnov/JBL world! Still have the Maggies? Or did you go JBL all the way or something else?

I still have mine, although I did finally swap the 3.6's for 20.7's. Don't know if I needed to do it but it was going to be my final stop in speakers so what the heck. This may not be a surprise to you, but being wider, they took more effort in placement, greater toe in angle for the Altitude's measurements compared to the 3.6's and I had to pull them out more to reduce the increased mid-bass. I do like them but after making the change, I concluded that the 3 series really is the sweet spot for Maggies which IIRC was your position for years
Thanks Steve, good to see an old friend! Not that you're old... The 20's are great speakers, but would not fit (or barely) in my room, and I was worried about the sound coalescing since I would be fairly close. I had planned on 3.7's, or maybe Sanders ESL's, but got a great deal on some Revel speakers and went with those.

Technically I still have my Maggies but they are all boxed up. After going back and forth for several years I got some great deals (and bonuses, and a very understanding wife) so I went all-Revel. 6 x Salon2's and a Voice2; still using my quartet of little Rythmik subs (more than enough for my room). The Salon2's fit but are pretty imposing in my modest room. Really the first conventional speakers I've had in my top system since my old Infinity reference set back in the 1980's. They do a lot of things very well, better than Maggies, though do not have that floor-to-ceiling "presence". They don't have the midrange issues so many others do, at least to me, and having large speakers for surrounds and rears has long been a dream of mine (I blame Kal Rubinson for the multichannel music bug).

Having Revels made the SDP-75 a reasonable choice despite the lack of PEQ (actually it is there, just not user-accessible, but you load data for your speakers) and remapping. I've gotten good support from both Harman and Trinnov; David and Jon have even answered some of my questions "on-air", cool!

In one of the Trinnov webinars Maggies were mentioned and the presenter (Jon or David) commented the the Trinnov handled them just fine even though he expected to have to mess with settings. I suspect depending upon the room some adjustment to a few settings would be appropriate to account for the back wave.

I plan to email Trinnov and ask for more information about those advanced settings. I've played with them quite a bit but quit due to lack of time and wariness of over-tweaking; need to listen more and piddle less. Handing that much control and flexibility to a design engineer with some acoustics, DSP, and sound background is a curse in some ways. Too much tendency to over-analyze and over-tweak; the smoothest plot is not always the best sound in the real world (unless you clamp your head in a vise). It's like IC design in some ways; eventually you have to give up going for the last 0.001% and ship the durn thing.

I will say I was concerned about the high price and thinking it was overkill for me and my room, but even this early on in setting it up I think it is one of the best purchases I have made. I wish I had done it 5-6 years ago when I first heard about them instead of rolling through a couple of other AVRs/AVPs along the way. I don't think you can explain just how much a step up it is without "being there". I blame Kal again; he was impressed, and has been sending me some multichannel stuff to show it off.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

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post #11760 of 12081 Old 05-28-2020, 10:31 PM
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Here's one for all of us.

In years past I've always avoided running my various monoblock amplifiers through power conditioners, but connect straight to each amp's own dedicated circuit.

However, in figuring out my theater upgrade & renovation, I decided to sell of my two PS Audio P5 Power Plants, and have coming in a PS Audio P20 Power Plant (rated 2000VA, 3600VA peak, 20 amp circuit), with plenty of outlets, 5 zones, including 2 zones that can be high current.

I will be powering my Sony 5000 projector off a separate Furman power conditioner 20 amp. All front end components off the P20.

My plan has been to keep 3 Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks (NCore 1200) for front 3 Aerial Acoustics 7t floorstanders. Also use a Trinnov Amplitude 8 (NCore 1200) for remaining 8 base layer channels.
And use a Trinnov Amplitude 8m (NCore 500) and also an ATI multi-channel amp I have (NCore 500) for the inceiling channels.

I will wire dedicated circuits for the 3 Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks - but I can also try plugging them into the PS Audio P20. Observations and thoughts on this?

I am also considering continuing to "clean up" the new install by selling the 3 Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks (and the ATI amp), getting another Trinnov Amplitude 8 (NCore 1200). However, if I decide to do this, my thoughts are 8 base channels are simply too much of a power draw on the PS Audio P20 and I would definitely only want to plug this Amplitude 8 amplifier into its own dedicated wall outlet. Observations and thoughts on this?

(Actually, the Amplitude 8 has 2 15 amp IEC inputs, I assume each IEC input powering 4 channels each.)

Pray for all of our healthcare providers, food manufacturing and delivery workers, all of whom are doing their best at great risk to help us survive the current Covid-19 virus crisis.
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