Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound engineering and a worthy test of our "ultra" systems! - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 78Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #721 of 1026 Old 10-10-2014, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
Well if your a game of thrones fan, check out Black sails. Again awesome sound. The first episode, played back via Auromatic was one of the best sounding shows I've heard. Pirate walking over head on the upper decks. Boat creeks and cracks from all around.

On blu ray of course. But I couldn't get passed episode 2 and it's just not my cup of tea, like GOT. Which I liken to Medievil porn. Lol
Game of Thrones is no Thanksgiving-family-dinner material that's for sure. I was surprised by the graphic nature; the most aggressive that I've seen for a main stream series and some scenes with the Khalessi almost feel like a Kamasutra illustration. A colleague and my son (actually studying close to where you are presently - London U) are both avid readers, and both avid fans of George Martin's writing. The book is just as graphic as the series and my colleague would tease me now I know why this book series is so popular among the younger generation.

At any rate, with Breaking Bad done, GOT is set to dominate and should be one of the most popular TV series ever by the time it's through. You might want to keep watching for a few more episodes - the writing, acting, and plot are *fantastic*, a class above majority of American action movies, to me anyway. Just have to know that this is a fantasy genre.

You are quick with Black Sails Blu-ray - just released a few days ago in the UK right? Emmy winner for sound this year and per sdurani first episode was a trial mix with Atmos. I am not surprised by the sound quality.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 10-11-2014 at 11:06 PM.
cannga is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #722 of 1026 Old 10-12-2014, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Fascinating Atmos technology: Spatial Audio Processing (as learned from the pro's here - anyone/Roger :-) pls correct as needed).

Atmos is a combination of bed channels + objects; we know the bed channels are full bandwidth lossless, but what about the objects, are there unlimited disc space for them? What happens when there are too many objects (100 bees in all different directions), that cause the bitrate to exceed limitation allowed by the Blu-ray disc?

The technique is called SAP; best analogy is that of downmixing of channels, 2 channels down-mixed to one. For example, of the 100 bees above, the 20 bees that are coming at you from the back will be down mixed to one, the next 30 bees coming at you from the right down mixed to another one, etc. Even more interesting, the loudest bees are given priority of sonic "dominance" in the down-mix! Another good example is here, by fellow forum member pasender91:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasender91 View Post
As far as we know (the exact recipe is private), Atmos reduces the bandwidth of the home-theater version compared to the cinema version by "grouping" objects that are located in nearby locations. Let's take an example:

- Let's say there is a pack of 4 cars approaching from far away.
- in Cinema version we have 4 objects, each with their PCM soundtrack.
- in HT version, when the cars are still far away, they are very near in terms of angles in relation to the viewer, so Atmos will group them and combine the PCMs.
- The net result is 1 object instead of 4 and the PCM bandwidth required is divided by 4, here is the compression gain, it is not directly compressing the PCM data but combining the objects. I guess this can be called "spatial compression"
- Of course this is made at the expense of the precision of the signal, but Dolby says the impact is minimal as the cars are almost at the same angular location.
- As the cars approach the viewer, they separate in angular terms, so Atmos will at some point go back to the individual objects, as cars pass by around the viewer.
- All those objects groups will be created and destroyed dynamically during the HT authoring process, but the filmmixer can also manually group the objects.
- This is also a way for Atmos to fit 118 cinema objects into 58 HT objects
This process is described in the Atmos patent document.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 10-12-2014 at 12:44 PM.
cannga is offline  
post #723 of 1026 Old 10-17-2014, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Giants to the World Series!! Very lucky to beat such a good team (manager so gracious in defeat); Giants need to get their offense together if they want to win the Series.

I feel sorry for the young pitcher who gave up the HR. They put him in a tough spot.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 10-18-2014 at 08:57 AM.
cannga is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #724 of 1026 Old 10-18-2014, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Sunday cartoon, early edition. Almost fell off my chair laughing on the one about the blues (which I do listen to).








Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 10-18-2014 at 09:22 AM.
cannga is offline  
post #725 of 1026 Old 10-19-2014, 10:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DanFrancis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Aurora, IL, USA
Posts: 1,920
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Can, I'm a huge blues fan too. PM me sometime with some places to hear good blues in the LA area (if that's where you're at). Maybe we can catch some tunes together the next time I'm in LA.

Dan

Dan Francis
DanFrancis is offline  
post #726 of 1026 Old 10-19-2014, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post
Can, I'm a huge blues fan too. PM me sometime with some places to hear good blues in the LA area (if that's where you're at). Maybe we can catch some tunes together the next time I'm in LA.
Dan
Hi Dan, thanks. Nothing hard core for me though - mostly "greatest" types recommended by the high end rags.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
cannga is offline  
post #727 of 1026 Old 10-21-2014, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
If you are looking for headache and the bees' example above is not enough, below is Dolby's patent on spatial audio processing. Thanks to Roger for the link and more importantly for pointing out the relevant paragraphs. I first thought centroid is a word they made up LOL; remember, you heard it here first :-).

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2014099285A1.html
49. A method of processing object-based audio comprising:
determining a first spatial location of each object relative to the other objects of the plurality of audio objects; determining a relative importance of each audio object of the plurality of audio objects, said relative importance depending on the relative spatial locations of objects;
determining a number of centroids, each centroid comprising a center of a cluster for grouping a plurality of audio objects, the centroid positions being dependent on the relative importance of one or more audio objects; and
grouping the objects into one or more clusters by distributing object signals across the clusters.
50. The method of claim 49 further comprising determining a partial loudness of each audio object of the plurality of audio objects, wherein the partial loudness of an object is based at least in part on a masking effect of one or more other objects.
51 . The method of claim 49 further comprising determining a content type and associated content type importance of each audio object of the plurality of audio objects.
52. The method of claim 49 further comprising combining the partial loudness and the content type of each audio object to determine the relative importance of a respective audio object.
53. The method of claim 52 wherein the content type is selected from the group consisting of: dialog, music, sound effects, ambiance, and noise.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 10-22-2014 at 10:41 AM.
cannga is offline  
post #728 of 1026 Old 10-25-2014, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851





Wandering the 2014 High End Show at Newport Beach California, I came across the Abyss AB-1266 headphone. It is at once the most expensive, least attractive, and likely BEST headphone that has **EVER** been made. This is a planar magnetic (vs. Stax's electrostatic design for example) headphone that frankly looks like a torture device from Rothenburg's Medieval Crime Museum. It is heavy and huge, not something you listen to in bed, but an important feature is this: the phone fits loosely on your ears; it is NOT meant to be pressed tightly against the head. To me, the design is more like a speaker next to your ear than a headphone.


That design feature I believe is the key to this phone's sound: the most airy, and least "headphony" sounding that I've heard. I listened to the Abyss driven by tube amp from Woo Electronics, and of course the room has multiple other phones to compare to, including what is considered the best non-insane high end headphone currently, the Audeze. Versus the Audeze (less than half the cost of Abyss at $2000) the Abyss is more open, transparent, and the bass a lot tighter and more punchy. The high end is Haagen Dazs smooth. It is completely "airy" in the most spooky and enjoyable way. Surprisingly, although heavy and unwieldy, it was not that uncomfortable. The one remaining competitor to the Abyss is the big daddy of headphones Stax SR-009, which I have not listened to. Per report of a trusted reviewer, Stax SR-009 could not match the tremendous bass quality and power of the Abyss; for sure, my own (lesser) Stax does not come close in any way, shape, or form. The Abyss's bass is seriously, seriously, tight, good, and powerful.


Although I've had a few decent headphones over the years, currently Stax Electrotstatic and Grado, I've never considered myself a "headphone guy" (I think, you either are, or you are not, with headphone... but that's another topic altogether.). I have never gotten used to the soundstage inside my head, and it's harder for me to judge any given recording's spaciousness and transparency using headphone, but if I have an extra bonus, this is the one. If you ever see a pair, especially if connected to a tube amp, put it on to see what the ultimate in passion and engineering sounds like. It is ULTRA SOTA :-) at its very best.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-04-2014 at 02:02 PM.
cannga is offline  
post #729 of 1026 Old 11-01-2014, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851






Speaking of the blues and audiophilia, guess what's playing in my system on its 50th anniversary: a stunning recording of highest "fidelity", transparency (IMHO the most difficult quality to achieve in high end audio), and dynamics. I will leave it to you to discover the music review, but as for the sound, if you ever wonder what "reach out and touch the singer" means, this is an excellent record to demo, surely the vinyl version (sorry I don't have the sacd).

That this recording is 50 years old makes it even more of a stunner. I am not sure but I suspect the sound quality is related to the fact that this is an unplugged recording (yep, unplugged before unplugged became popular) where the band is playing all acoustic instruments. Folk Singer is dripping with atmospheric clues and vividness; I am in love. Mine is the MoFi version but there is alternative reissue here: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/10...m_Vinyl_Record

Camera Canon 1D, lens Canon L 35 f1.4 (one of greatest Canon lenses ever made), shot in RAW and converted w/ Capture One. Sorry Morris/Jeff/& company, I had to use the Theta as display platform :-).

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-01-2014 at 05:44 AM.
cannga is offline  
post #730 of 1026 Old 11-04-2014, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Sound Anchors is a small US company that makes both generic and brand specific component stands, such as the ones you might have seen with Thiel MCS and Aerial Acoustic CC5 speakers. http://soundanchors.com/products/hi-fi-home-theater

Having recently bought the superb Aerial Acoustics CC5 (amazing bass and dynamics for a center channel speaker), I called to ask about the speaker stand choices available. Essentially there are 2: a brand specific Aerial Acostics stand for around $750, versus a generic Sound Anchors stand for around $450. When I asked why the generic stand is so much less, I was assured that it is very much the equal in support and sturdiness, no less "custom made," and in addition has their "best" tilt mechanism. So that's what I ordered, the generic model, Studio Center http://soundanchors.com/products/category/9, Sound Anchor's "most recommended" for large center speaker.

I am stunned by the quality and construction of the stand and could not recommend it highly enough; not just for Aerial but other speakers as well. Once assembled the stand is ROCK solid and the fit and finish are first class. The tilt mechanism is perfect. Lastly, height is generously adjustable; you specified a height and the speaker will be adjustable +/- 5 inches from your specified height. Below is picture of Aerial Acoustics CC5 on Sound Anchors stand - note the super friends circling the CC5, from left side clockwise: Aragon, Krell KAV, Classe CA 400, Krell FPB 600, and in the back a bunch :-) of tube preamps and phono stages. Pictures taken with Canon 1D and Canon 35 L f1.4 lens.


Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-04-2014 at 02:11 PM.
cannga is offline  
post #731 of 1026 Old 11-04-2014, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
By itself; note tilt mechanism/platform AND adjustable height, 5 inches either way from specified height:



Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
cannga is offline  
post #732 of 1026 Old 11-05-2014, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
This last picture shows the very aggressive up-tilt possible with this Sound Anchors stand. I prefer to be on-axis with the center speaker (it sits low, and tilts up), and this helps.



Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
cannga is offline  
post #733 of 1026 Old 11-05-2014, 05:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: good old USA
Posts: 2,443
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 586 Post(s)
Liked: 466
Dunlavy HRCC and Sound Anchor. The welds at the top are because I had it cut down once I went with a projection screen in the system.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0730.jpg
Views:	89
Size:	185.5 KB
ID:	350946   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0736.jpg
Views:	138
Size:	223.8 KB
ID:	350954  

See ya. Dave

"High Fidelity audio has been like a dog chasing his tail. High Fidelity in my marriage has been much more rewarding because she knows where I sleep."
Jive Turkey is offline  
post #734 of 1026 Old 11-05-2014, 05:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: good old USA
Posts: 2,443
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 586 Post(s)
Liked: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
This last picture shows the very aggressive up-tilt possible with this Sound Anchors stand. I prefer to be on-axis with the center speaker (it sits low, and tilts up), and this helps.


I used to own that same Sound Anchors stand when I had a Dunlavy CRCC center channel speaker. I agree it's an outstanding stand and built with quality.

I had my center channel speaker sitting on four self adhesive felt rounds on the supporting flats. When I moved it after a long spell, the bottom of the speaker had shown lines where the flat bars were. I can only speculate that the tilt I had to use to the speaker was enough to allow the sun to change the color of the bottom of the speaker where the bars didn't cover. I would keep the blackout drapes open during the day, and I guess that's all it took. Surprised the crap out of me; it wasn't tilted up any more than what your pics show, and because the CRCC is such a big speaker, it was actually lower to the ground.

See ya. Dave

"High Fidelity audio has been like a dog chasing his tail. High Fidelity in my marriage has been much more rewarding because she knows where I sleep."
Jive Turkey is offline  
post #735 of 1026 Old 11-06-2014, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
I used to own that same Sound Anchors stand when I had a Dunlavy CRCC center channel speaker. I agree it's an outstanding stand and built with quality.

I had my center channel speaker sitting on four self adhesive felt rounds on the supporting flats. When I moved it after a long spell, the bottom of the speaker had shown lines where the flat bars were. I can only speculate that the tilt I had to use to the speaker was enough to allow the sun to change the color of the bottom of the speaker where the bars didn't cover. I would keep the blackout drapes open during the day, and I guess that's all it took. Surprised the crap out of me; it wasn't tilted up any more than what your pics show, and because the CRCC is such a big speaker, it was actually lower to the ground.
What's odd about the fading at bottom of your speaker is that you expect that area "covered" by the supporting bars to be darker, not lighter as in your picture. Like the veneer bleach into the bar or something!

But yeah, great quality and costs so little. Bob the owner sounds like he's ready to retire so anyone who is interested in this I would suggest to place the order early rather than late. I appreciate most of all the aggressive tilt; it improves treble response considerably in my system.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
cannga is offline  
post #736 of 1026 Old 11-08-2014, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
HP - RIP.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...vember-4-2014/
"a now-distant era when the high end was young, and so were we"

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
cannga is offline  
post #737 of 1026 Old 11-10-2014, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
This movie is another example of why whether your system is 5.1 DTS or 7.1.4 Atmos, to play with the "big boys," the front 3 speakers - left, center, right - should be as large, full range, and good sounding as one's budget allows. Yes, the enveloping effect is nice, yes the flies sound effect is fun to listen to, but... they are "surround" sound in support of the "primary" sound from front 3 speakers, where the screen and action reside. Whether it is Gravity, or Super 8, or Smaug, the front 3 channels are the ones that dominate the sound and provide the ultimate sonic drama (turn off your LCR speakers in Super 8's train wreck and you'll notice there is almost zero sound from the surrounds).


When I wrote the above about the importance of the front 3 speakers, it was just just an educated guess, without any number/study cited. Now... there is actually a number; and it's interesting indeed.

Following is from recent SMPTE's 2014 report on state of the commercial cinemas. I wish I could ask *how* 80% was calculated (percent of time?), but regardless, the number is even MORE than I had assumed.






Regards,
Can

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
cannga is offline  
post #738 of 1026 Old 11-11-2014, 10:37 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,512
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked: 1733
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
When I wrote the above about the importance of the front 3 speakers, it was just just an educated guess, without any number/study cited. Now... there is actually a number; and it's interesting indeed.

Following is from recent SMPTE's 2014 report on state of the commercial cinemas. I wish I could ask *how* 80% was calculated (percent of time?), but regardless, the number is even MORE than I had assumed.
Not sure where that slide came from, but it it not in the SMPTE report.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #739 of 1026 Old 11-11-2014, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Not sure where that slide came from, but it it not in the SMPTE report.

It is a screen capture of a slide in Scott Wilkinson's interview of Brian Vessa here: http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/230. The quote is from Brian Vessa and is at about 8 minutes into the interview. If you don't mind, please check and correct me as needed.

Brian mentioned a "consensus" (sp??) report that was presented only to SMPTE's management and not released in public report. Maybe this slide was part of that "private" report?

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
cannga is offline  
post #740 of 1026 Old 11-12-2014, 12:10 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,512
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked: 1733
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
It is a screen capture of a slide in Scott Wilkinson's interview of Brian Vessa here: http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/230. The quote is from Brian Vessa and is at about 8 minutes into the interview. If you don't mind, please check and correct me as needed.

Brian mentioned a "consensus" (sp??) report that was presented only to SMPTE's management and not released in public report. Maybe this slide was part of that "private" report?
Hi Can,
Ahh yes, from Mr. Vessa. No it's not from the earlier SMPTE consensus report, either. Brian has all sorts of materials at his disposal. You may recall seeing a few diagrams at minute 57 that I made for him. Those were not done for SMPTE either.

I take no issue with the information being presented. Just didn't want people to go digging through the 227-page B-chain report looking for details about channel usage. T'aint there.
cannga likes this.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #741 of 1026 Old 11-14-2014, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Since the Atmos fire doesn't seem to go away and in HUGE celebration :-) of Theta's semi-official entry into 3D audio, I thought it would be a good idea to review for new-comers: all you need to know about the angles . Yes 3D audio is all about the angles; you might as well get used to it if this is your interest.

There are 2 layers of speakers in Atmos being discussed (3 really, but I will try to keep it simple for now and leave it at two), the bottom/ground layer and the top/ceiling layer.
The discussion becomes important, probably theoretically much more than sonically, because object audio is fundamentally based on the SSP's brain (aka renderer) knowing where the speakers are. I am *more* than happy if Theta would just use estimates of speaker locations, but theoretically, if the Atmos brain knows exact knowledge of speaker locations, it is "better." Without this knowledge, the rendering is not OCD exact :-), and this can't be corrected even with post processing algorithm (which similarly depends on knowing exact locations, to correct to).

1. Bottom layer: Here since all speakers are in the plane of the listeners' ears ("reference" plane), any speaker is located by one angle value, plus linear distance. This angle is the azimuth in diagram below. It is easy to place bottom speakers in "desirable" spots because you only need to satisfy one angle requirement.

2. Top layer: NB here the game changes dramatically since we are off the reference plane, into 3D world. Any speaker needs to be located by 2 angle values plus linear distance. The 2 angles are azimuth AND altitude (aka elevation). It is this added complexity in locating where the speakers are that has caused, as the late Harry Pearson of Absolute Sound would say, much "brouhaha" in 3D audio discussion.





Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-15-2014 at 04:33 PM.
cannga is offline  
post #742 of 1026 Old 11-15-2014, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
The 3 layers for Dolby Atmos that I mentioned above are:
1. Main ground level: the LCR speakers, at 3 feet high (ear level, the reference plane),
2. Mid level: the side surround and rear surround speakers, at roughly 4-6 feet high,
3. Top level: ceiling, at roughly 8 feet high.

Now that I think about it, even classic Dolby TrueHD has always been 3D'ish :-) if you set up speakers as suggested by Dolby, with layers 1 and 2. And even more so if you "cheat" and elevate layer 2 higher (that is why I heard the Gravity flies buzzing on top of my head with my 7.1 system and why this thread was started).

IMHO the 3 layers of Atmos makes it similar in concept to Auro, and no less so as far as number of layers. In fact for small rooms where Auro suggests top layer is not necessary/critical and goes down to 2, Atmos maintains the top layer and stays at 3. In this situation does Atmos therefore have an advantage with the extra speakers on top? Battle of the layers!

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-15-2014 at 04:13 PM.
cannga is offline  
post #743 of 1026 Old 11-19-2014, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Rightly or wrongly, speaker placement is the number one topic of discussion for AVS Atmos users, primarily involving the aforementioned 2 angles for ceiling speakers (exact assumed values used by Atmos renderer unknown so far). Personally, I am sure I would be happy with placement based on what Atmos told us, but... part of me also wants to know what the film mixer hears. IOW, what angle values does an Atmos film mixing studio use for its ceiling speakers?

What you see below is Deluxe Toronto Atmos mixing room, Canada's first Atmos studio, and I chose it simply because it has the "cleanest" looking picture. http://bydeluxetoronto.com/theatres#sthash.TfxsvpLq.dpbs

Wouldn't it be nice if some engineer could approximate the values of those elevation angles for the side surround and ceiling speakers of this Atmos studio? Not to imply in anyway that this is the correct way of setting up your home theater speakers - purely personal preference :-).



Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-19-2014 at 11:22 AM.
cannga is offline  
post #744 of 1026 Old 11-19-2014, 11:55 AM
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,607
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2273 Post(s)
Liked: 1292
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
Here is the JBL room at CEDIA, the heights are not aimed like in the studio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=IJZbRliuPg0
CINERAMAX is offline  
post #745 of 1026 Old 11-19-2014, 10:46 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,512
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked: 1733
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Wouldn't it be nice if some engineer could approximate the values of those elevation angles for the side surround and ceiling speakers of this Atmos studio? Not to imply in anyway that this is the correct way of setting up your home theater speakers - purely personal preference :-).
Your wish has been granted. Link. But surely you saw that, as it was a reply to your post.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #746 of 1026 Old 11-20-2014, 12:57 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Your wish has been granted. Link. But surely you saw that, as it was a reply to your post.
Ahhh... Roger, you ruined the surprise and tremendous "tension" I am building up for my *NEXT* post!

Hint: your initials will be in the picture :-).

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-20-2014 at 02:01 AM.
cannga is offline  
post #747 of 1026 Old 11-20-2014, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Here is the JBL room at CEDIA, the heights are not aimed like in the studio.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=IJZbRliuPg0

Very good observation Peter. I would think the difference is that the CEDIA demo has many people in the audience, whereas Deluxe Toronto has but *one*, the film mixer. It sems every speaker is aiming at him!

BTW the Cedia speakers, you wrote AWC 32; did you mean AWC 82? 120x120 degrees dispersion pattern?! https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttach...nd_Catalog.pdf

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-20-2014 at 07:14 PM.
cannga is offline  
post #748 of 1026 Old 11-21-2014, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Roger was kind enough to make a 3D model based on picture of Deluxe Toronto above, and from that gave estimates of elevation angles of the surround and ceiling speakers.

Compared to Dolby's recommendation for home theater, 2 things should be obvious:
1. The side surround is a touch higher at around 6 feet (vs. home Atmos recommendation of around 4-5 feet; some of us would lower the Atmos side surround towards ground, some don't).
2. The ceiling speakers are closer together and appear more on top angularly :-), sitting inside of main LR (vs. home Atmos recommendation of lining up ceiling speakers in same row/width as main LR). Personally I would probably prefer this inside position as there would be more speakers populating the "middle" of the room instead of out at the outside border; but YMMV, pers. pref.

So there you have it, another data point. This is not to say that the film mixer's perspective is the "right" one, but it's there if you so choose. As mentioned, despite of my curiosity for the ideal positions, I would be happy to be close enough to either perspective. Curiously, it seems to me smart Atmos/DTS renderer, if ever released, will make these discussions less relevant: smart renderer with object audio acts like an automatic remapper, all the times, no?





Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-21-2014 at 02:54 PM.
cannga is offline  
post #749 of 1026 Old 11-22-2014, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Lo and behold, 3 topics I discussed in this page, posts 737, 742, 748,
1. the importance of center channel speaker (80%, buy *BIG* center speaker :-))
2. ceiling speakers being closer together, 5 ft
3. 3 layers with surround slightly higher than main: main at 3 ft, surround at 4.5 to 6 ft, and ceiling on top, are covered in this latest segment of Home Theater Geeks. It's uncanny, as if my soapbox monologue is repeating Grimani words for words.

Anthony Grimany (ex Dolby and Lucasfilm THX employees http://www.msr-inc.com/about/anthony_grimani.html) came across as a very eloquent and smart speaker, and IMHO this is MANDATORY viewing for all of us interested in movie surround sound.

I find the discussion starting around 29:00 and 47:00 particularly important, for those of us who want to skip to the meaty parts. But really the whole segment is probably the most informative and interesting discussion on important surround sound principles that I've ever seen.


Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-25-2014 at 09:19 AM.
cannga is offline  
post #750 of 1026 Old 11-24-2014, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,409
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked: 1851
Bump for good video above; if you have not seen it. Funny thing is at first I thought oh no another salesman pitching his ware, and then a few minutes in, I realized.... GOODNESS... he... is.... the... real... thing. Some pro's seemingly know less about the mind-numbing details of Atmos than the posters on this forum, not Grimani.

Grimani must have been Roger's colleague at Dolby - might have been there at the same time? And you know how smart and clever these Dolby people are . Grimani said "I LOVE to argue." LOL. Nice summary below

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Summary of what the acoustics specialist guest Anthony Grimani discusses:

1. The center speaker should be the best quality speaker in your setup as roughly 80% of all of the film's audio will be directed to it.
2. Consider adding Front Wides in a 9.1.2 setup to fill in the front sound stage gap as doing so can have a much bigger overall impact than an additional 2 height speakers (eg. relatively little audio was sent to the height speakers in T4).
3. Consider placing the height speakers closer together (ie. 4'-5' separation and closer to center line just as you would see in an Atmos theater) rather than in line with the FL/FR speakers as seen in the Dolby images in the Atmos AVR Owner manuals.
4. With Height speakers more center focused than FL/FR focuses, okay to place FW and Surrounds at standing height rather than seated height. *
5. Surround back speakers should be behind listening position with a maximum of 4-5' separation (ie. not in line with FL/FR speakers).**
6. Use height speakers with aim able tweeters.
*Surround side at 1.5 to 2 ft higher than front LR
**Surround back at 160-170 degrees (very much "backward," only 20-40 degrees separate the 2 surround back speakers)

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 11-25-2014 at 02:14 AM.
cannga is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off