Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound engineering and a worthy test of our "ultra" systems! - Page 29 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #841 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
1. Probably your rear speakers reflecting off the front wall and combining with the sounds from the front soundstage. It's not the processing itself, because the L/C/R channels are not touched during upmixing.
2. You investigated using Dolby Surround Upmixing or PLIIx on your Casablanca?
1. Sure this is one possibility for the loss of front soundstage clarity with upmixing that I am hearing. Another guess is simply that there are 2 more speakers "chatting," fairly loudly: You and I (main speakers) are talking to each other, now two other people (rear upmixing speakers) come in the room and start chatting; their conversation increases the background noise and makes it more difficult for me to hear you.

"LCR are not touched during upmixing": Very interesting, confirmed with 100% certainty, published info (not private email, etc.)? In other words, PLIIx music and PLIIx movie have *identical* LCR signal? How about DTS Neo 6 movie vs music? LCR also not touched there? (They all sound very different from each other in front soundstage.) Your question gives me an idea: I will isolate center speaker when I have time to compare.

2. No DSU. This first exploration is strictly DTS MA 5.1 to 7.1 Dolby or 6.1 DTS upmixing using Casablanca.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #842 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Very interesting, confirmed with 100% certainty, published info (not private email, etc.)? In other words, PLIIx music and PLIIx movie have *identical* LCR signal?
PLIIx only processes 2 channels. If you apply it to a stereo signal, it sees 2 main channels and steers that to 7 outputs. If you apply it to a 5.1 signal, it sees only the 2 surround channels and steers that to 4 surround outputs (L/C/R channels are never touched). PLII, PLIIx, PLIIz never processes more than 2 channels.
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How about DTS Neo 6 movie vs music? LCR also not touched there?
Haven't tried Neo:6 with multi-channel sources since it first came out years ago, since it only extracts a mono surround-back channel (rather than stereo surround-back channels, like PLIIx). I'd imagine Neo:6 would work the same way when it came to L/C/R channels: 3 channels, 3 speakers, what is there to process? Should be easy to verify on your system.

Sanjay
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post #843 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
PLIIx only processes 2 channels. If you apply it to a stereo signal, it sees 2 main channels and steers that to 7 outputs. If you apply it to a 5.1 signal, it sees only the 2 surround channels and steers that to 4 surround outputs (L/C/R channels are never touched). PLII, PLIIx, PLIIz never processes more than 2 channels. Haven't tried Neo:6 with multi-channel sources since it first came out years ago, since it only extracts a mono surround-back channel (rather than stereo surround-back channels, like PLIIx). I'd imagine Neo:6 would work the same way when it came to L/C/R channels: 3 channels, 3 speakers, what is there to process? Should be easy to verify on your system.
1. Sanjay, am I missing something? Dolby site seems to say otherwise, no? You are saying even when Dolby PLIIx sees 5.1, it only processes the rear 2?
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...logic-iix.html
"Dolby Pro Logic IIx expands stereo or 5.1-channel audio to 6.1- or 7.1-channel sound, and lets you customize audio playback with listening modes designed specifically for movies, music, and games."

2. In particular, doesn't the following mean there is some degree of processing, or at least manipulation, in LCR?
"Dolby Center Width lets you adjust the balance of the main vocals in the center and front channels for more natural sound."

3. Lastly, these last 2 parameter adjustments are all done with LCR *untouched*? All by manipulation of *rear* sound field only?
Dolby Panorama creates a seamless, wraparound surround effect.
Dolby Dimension lets you adjust for a deeper or shallower surround soundfield to fit your listening environment.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #844 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Sanjay, am I missing something?
Rather than take my word for it, try it for yourself, on your own system.

Sanjay
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post #845 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Rather than take my word for it, try it for yourself, on your own system.
I have already; FWIW both what I heard and what I quoted from Dolby website seem to contradict what you are saying ("L/C/R channels are not touched during upmixing").

For one, the front soundstage image and dimension of PLIIx Music (default setting) sound noticeably different from PLIIx Movie; this *difference* alone would indicate IMHO that there is front LCR manipulation.

Same thing with DTS Neo6 Cine and Music Upmixing: definite manipulation of front soundstage image and dimension. But I am all ears for advice. Above finding is preliminary in nature with 7.1 speakers; I will further isolate center channel when I have time later and use different software materials.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
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post #846 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
For one, the front soundstage image and dimension of PLIIx Music (default setting) sound noticeably different from PLIIx Movie; this *difference* alone would indicate IMHO that there is front LCR manipulation.
That's only with 2-channel material, which doesn't have LCR channels. Try that same LCR manipulation on 5.1 material and let me know how it goes.

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post #847 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
That's only with 2-channel material, which doesn't have LCR channels. Try that same LCR manipulation on 5.1 material and let me know how it goes.

This *was* with 5.1 material; Roy Orbison Black and White Night DTS MA 5.1, upmixing to 7.1 Dolby PLIIx or 6.1 DTS Neo6. This is a prelim probe; I plan to do further test with other materials when I have time, and also to isolate the center channel.

How it goes: With upmixing there is noticeable change in front and rear soundstage dimension (expansion of apparent space), change in front image focus (larger image, but loss of image focus, voice sounds more reverberant as if person is in a bigger space). PLIIx music sounds more "stadium like" & different from PLIIx movie. DTS Neo6 Cine likewise sounds different from DTS Neo6 Movie. Definitely front soundstage LCR manipulation is involved, to my ears.

The upmixing could be considered "pleasant" or even "impressive," but yes there is loss of image focus and more noisy background noise relatively, and therefore, loss of what I called "front soundstage clarity." Whether one is "better" than the other will depend on listener's priority and materials, IMHO. In addition, when you adjust for the considerable difference in loudness (casual test shows about 4-5 db difference, upmixing being louder), the playing fields level even more.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #848 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
This *was* with 5.1 material; Roy Orbison Black and White Night DTS MA 5.1, upmixing to 7.1 Dolby PLIIx or 6.1 DTS Neo6.
If you're convinced that PLIIx is processing discrete L/C/R channels rather than simply routing them untouched to their respective L/C/R speakers, then I won't argue otherwise.

Sanjay
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post #849 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I have already; FWIW both what I heard and what I quoted from Dolby website seem to contradict what you are saying ("L/C/R channels are not touched during upmixing").

For one, the front soundstage image and dimension of PLIIx Music (default setting) sound noticeably different from PLIIx Movie; this *difference* alone would indicate IMHO that there is front LCR manipulation.

Same thing with DTS Neo6 Cine and Music Upmixing: definite manipulation of front soundstage image and dimension. But I am all ears for advice. Above finding is preliminary in nature with 7.1 speakers; I will further isolate center channel when I have time later and use different software materials.
PLII is an upmixer. IOW it takes some 'base' channels and creates new (extracted) content from those channels and 'expands' it to more channels. It follows that it cannot possibly do anything with the LCR channels - what would it do - extract content from the L, C and R channels and send it to the L, C and R channels?

As Sanjay is saying, the upmixer extracts content from two of the channels (in this example it is the Left and the Right channel) and sends it elsewhere - ie to the surround and center channels if the source is 2.0. If the content is already 5.1, there is obviously no need to send anything to the 5 channels as it is there already. In this case, PLII will upmix the two surround channels to the rear surround channels to make a 7.1 result. In both cases PLII extracts from just two channels.
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post #850 of 1026 Old 07-14-2015, 01:21 PM
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Can you enable the up mixing and then mute your two rear channels so they are getting sent info but not actually playing it. That way you'll know for sure that the sound anomalies you are hearing are coming from either the rear speakers interacting with the front sound stage or if the LCR are being altered in someway.
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post #851 of 1026 Old 07-15-2015, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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PLII is an upmixer. IOW it takes some 'base' channels and creates new (extracted) content from those channels and 'expands' it to more channels. 1. It follows that it cannot possibly do anything with the LCR channels - what would it do - extract content from the L, C and R channels and send it to the L, C and R channels?

As Sanjay is saying, the upmixer extracts content from two of the channels (in this example it is the Left and the Right channel) and sends it elsewhere - ie to the surround and center channels if the source is 2.0. If the content is already 5.1, there is obviously no need to send anything to the 5 channels as it is there already. In this case, PLII will upmix the two surround channels to the rear surround channels to make a 7.1 result. In both cases 2. PLII extracts from just two channels.


I am no expert but I believe both of these statements are way too simplistic a view of PLIIx Music and Movie. Why do you think they've created 2 modes of PLIIx - surely this alone implies PLIIx involves more than just "upmixing the 2 surround channels," right?

1. Are you sure about this? What channels does the Center Width function of PLIIx Music manipulate?

2. Are you sure about this? What channels does the Panorama function of PLIIx Music manipulate? Not 100% sure but I have this suspicion it involves signals from the front left and right channel. http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...logic-iix.html

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #852 of 1026 Old 07-15-2015, 04:33 AM
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I am no expert but I believe both of these statements are way too simplistic a view of PLIIx Music and Movie.

1. Are you sure about this? What channel does the Center Width function of PLIIx Music manipulate?

2. Are you sure about this? What channels does the Panorama function of PLIIx Music manipulate? Not 100% sure but I have this suspicion it involves signals from the front left and right channel. http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...logic-iix.html
Yes, I am 100% sure that when the source is 5.1 and it is upmixed with PLIIx, the upmixed content goes only to the rear surrounds in the 7.1 system.

And I am 100% sure that when the source is 2.0 and it is upmixed with PLIIx, the upmixed content goes to the center channel and surrounds.

I am also 100% sure that PLIIx does not touch the LCR channels themselves as there is no purpose to be served by upmixing content to speakers which already have their own discrete content.

But if you care to believe differently, that is fine by me of course
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post #853 of 1026 Old 07-15-2015, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I am 100% sure that when the source is 5.1 and it is upmixed with PLIIx, the upmixed content goes only to the rear surrounds in the 7.1 system.
And I am 100% sure that when the source is 2.0 and it is upmixed with PLIIx, the upmixed content goes to the center channel and surrounds.
I am also 100% sure that PLIIx does not touch the LCR channels themselves as there is no purpose to be served by upmixing content to speakers which already have their own discrete content.
But if you care to believe differently, that is fine by me of course

I think maybe the percentage should be 98%? Kidding aside, PLIIx Panorama involves 4 channels in its processing L, R, Ls, Rs as shown in diagram below. Again IMHO the view that 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing involves only 2 surround channels is too simplistic, and erroneous. A quick listening test would demonstrate for listeners the *front* soundstage image difference between PLIIx Music and PLIIx Movie. This difference alone should be the alert that there is more than just surround channel processing in PLIIx.

The second hint as already mentioned is the Center Width parameter. This of course involves manipulation of dominant center signal in Center (duh) channel. As you already know, PLIIx Music allows adjustment of how "centered" this signal should be, PLIIx Movie does not. This appears to be a lot of "touching" LOL of the LCR, to me anyway. Interesting topic.


Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #854 of 1026 Old 07-24-2015, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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The Fathom v2's are scheduled for April 2015 delivery (v1's will be available until then)
What will change and what won't?
Dimensions and cosmetics are unchanged, other than a rearrangement of the rear panel connections.
We have made some slight tweaks to some of the drivers, mostly suspension-related.
The electronics have been completely redesigned:
20% more amplifier power
All-DSP processing, including 18-Band Digital ARO (automatic room optimization). Feature set is the same as the v1's.
US MSRP will increase $200 on single driver models, $300 on f212.
Best regards,
Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


It appears Fathom F112 Version 2 is now available: http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/...ducts_id=14508

Note difference between F112 and its cheaper twin, E112:
E112 has low pass/high pass crossover (preamp to E112, E112 high pass to main speakers), and is nearly half the cost of F112. This subwoof is extremely appealing because of the low cost and the apparently transparent crossover.
F112 has no crossover (low pass into the subwoofer only), has balanced input, and of course, automatic room optimization. ARO in version 2 is supposed to be "better" than version 1.

I would have pulled the trigger already except I am saving up $ :-) for upgrade from Casablanca III HD to Casablanca IVa with Atmos and Auro - around 7k, and possibly more with DTS:X. Plus the system sounds ok for me now and I've learned over the years not to mess with things when it already sounds good... otherwise "it" never ends .


Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
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post #855 of 1026 Old 07-24-2015, 12:19 PM
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The upmixing could be considered "pleasant" or even "impressive," but yes there is loss of image focus and more noisy background noise relatively, and therefore, loss of what I called "front soundstage clarity." Whether one is "better" than the other will depend on listener's priority and materials, IMHO. In addition, when you adjust for the considerable difference in loudness (casual test shows about 4-5 db difference, upmixing being louder), the playing fields level even more.
Which is your favorite upmixer for movies (5.1 to 7.1)? ProLogic IIx movie? music? DTSneo6 movie? etc?
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post #856 of 1026 Old 07-24-2015, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
PLIIx only processes 2 channels. If you apply it to a stereo signal, it sees 2 main channels and steers that to 7 outputs. If you apply it to a 5.1 signal, it sees only the 2 surround channels and steers that to 4 surround outputs (L/C/R channels are never touched). PLII, PLIIx, PLIIz never processes more than 2 channels. Haven't tried Neo:6 with multi-channel sources since it first came out years ago, since it only extracts a mono surround-back channel (rather than stereo surround-back channels, like PLIIx). I'd imagine Neo:6 would work the same way when it came to L/C/R channels: 3 channels, 3 speakers, what is there to process? Should be easy to verify on your system.
Does PLIIz extract height info from the surrounds only?
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post #857 of 1026 Old 07-24-2015, 12:27 PM
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Does PLIIz extract height info from the surrounds only?
Yes, decorrelated (out of phase) info from the L/R surround channels of a 5.1 or 7.1 track.

Sanjay
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post #858 of 1026 Old 07-24-2015, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes, decorrelated (out of phase) info from the L/R surround channels of a 5.1 or 7.1 track.
PLIIx - decorrelated (out of phase) info from the L/R surround channels (typical answer i hear, or is it in phase?)
PLIIz - decorrelated (out of phase) info from the L/R surround channels
How does the system differentiate? Any voodoo to know it is height or rear?

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post #859 of 1026 Old 07-24-2015, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
PLIIx - decorrelated (out of phase) info from the L/R surround channels (typical answer i hear, or is it in phase?)
In phase.
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How does the system differentiate? Any voodoo to know it is height or rear?
The voodoo is initial speaker set-up, where you dial in whether you have heights or rears or both.

Sanjay
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post #860 of 1026 Old 07-24-2015, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
Which is your favorite upmixer for movies (5.1 to 7.1)? ProLogic IIx movie? music? DTSneo6 movie? etc?
Based on this particular disc of Orbison music, Black and White Night (one of best concert discs ever, recorded by an audiophile engineer HERE on Amazon) with native DTS 5.1 and in *my system*, PLIIx Movie 7.1 - because to me, it expands soundspace with less "bloomy/"stadium mode-like" character, and alters the front soundstage less. The choice depends on personal taste and what one is looking for, of course, but if you are a neurotic audiophile who looks for layers/depth/voice detail & placement nuance in front soundstage, then PLIIx Movie is the best choice IMHO. Also I should add the observed effect might be less drastic with other music discs, and with movies (vs music, where there are constant voice or instrument info in all channels, all the times, that magnify effect).

For example, in one song, Orbison voice in native 5.1 is slightly recessed.
A. With PLIIx Movie 7.1, it at least stays recessed.
B. With PLIIx Music 7.1 at default setting, the voice gets pulled to stronger center. Subtle, but there. This mode in my system also seems more aggressive in the rear.

I very much preferring testing with music (vs. movie) because unlike movie, where a sound may a. appear for a brief second then disappears, b. move around, and c. vary in intensity, with a music disc the center voice is always there and does NOT move around, nor changes too much in loudness. Because we are familiar with human voice, tracking in this case Orbison's voice taught me what each mode does and whether Ilike it.

FWIW, to me, what is most desirable, is of course, native 7.1 over upmixed 7.1; because as mentioned, native is the mixer's intent, whereas, upmixed is an engineer's intent. So what? Well, it's interesting that even if you don't have an Atmos receiver/speaker setup and are at only 7.1.0, Gravity with Atmos (native 7.1 fold down) is "better" theoretically than original Gravity (native 5.1).

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #861 of 1026 Old 08-01-2015, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Repost of this very interesting video as more Theta owners are getting hold of Casablanca with Dirac.

Some interesting side info: Paul Hales started out as a high end "audiophile" type speaker designer in the 90's. One of the most influential reviewers of high end rags, Robert Harley, gave his speaker a rave review and used it as his reference for a few years: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...7XjG16vJ60Y.97 .

The Hales speaker company however never crossed the line to great commercial success. I've always wondered what happened to him, and now so interesting to hear that he crossed over to commercial, and now back to designing, gasp, horn speakers. I too realize the incredible "jump factor" of horns and am thinking about trying our a pair for fun. Maybe one from his company: http://proaudiotechnology.com/loudspeakers.html . These speakers apparently are used by Genesis UK in their ICE suite for demo'ing Auro & Datasat SSP's.



Paul Hales in the video talked about the transition/Shroeder frequency, above which room correction is quite controversial and NOT necessarily always "justified." Amost by definition, there is no such thing as *room* correction above Shroeder. Above this frequency, all so called "room correction" algorithms are correcting the speaker's power response, in essence, the very sound of the speaker that the designer is aiming for. Not necessarily a good idea. This has been discussed by various pro's on this forum: Amir in his Wide Screen Review writing, Nyal Mellor in his excellent blog http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...a-primer-html/, etc.

Two interesting considerations:
1. From the standpoint of subjective observation/personal preference, it is neither right or wrong whether you use equalizer for the mid and high frequency- I am not against it and in fact use it in my car. If you like the sound, it doesn't matter how it's achieved: whether it's called an equalizer, tone control, or room correction.
2. From the standpoint of understanding "room correction" methodology, then it's an entirely different matter. Hales's key point is that if you like the result from Audyssey/Dirac/Trinnov/etc. correction at high frequency, it's less "room" correction, more **speaker** correction using essentially an equalizer, albeit an automatic one. You, or rather, an arbitrary algorithm such as Dirac/Trinnov, are changing the sound of the speaker as intended by its designer; again, there is nothing wrong with this so long as user understands the distinction.
IMHO, the bottom line is all equalizer must be used extremely judiciously. If there is significant equalizer usage in the mid/high frequency, that does mean there is something wrong with your setup, more specifically, your speakers.




Regards, Can
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post #862 of 1026 Old 08-01-2015, 10:27 AM
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post #863 of 1026 Old 08-01-2015, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Repost of this very interesting video as more Theta owners are getting hold of Casablanca with Dirac.

Some interesting side info: Paul Hales started out as a high end "audiophile" type speaker designer in the 90's. One of the most influential reviewers of high end rags, Robert Harley, gave his speaker a rave review and used it as his reference for a few years: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...7XjG16vJ60Y.97 .

The Hales speaker company however never crossed the line to great commercial success. I've always wondered what happened to him, and now so interesting to hear that he crossed over to commercial, and now back to designing, gasp, horn speakers. I too realize the incredible "jump factor" of horns and am thinking about trying our a pair for fun. Maybe one from his company: http://proaudiotechnology.com/loudspeakers.html . These speakers apparently are used by Genesis UK in their ICE suite for demo'ing Auro & Datasat SSP's.

https://youtu.be/_l1IkpzeuQI


And... what a most interesting coincidence. These very speakers are available for your purchase - got to love the internet and capitalism:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/ful...1724-covina-ca

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #864 of 1026 Old 08-01-2015, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
These speakers apparently are used by Genesis UK in their ICE suite for demo'ing Auro & Datasat SSP's.
This is old news as well. Genesis Technologies are no longer involved with Pro Audio Technology in the UK. Or Datasat for that matter. You really need to start posting some up to date information

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post #865 of 1026 Old 08-11-2015, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Taking this discussion here because it's interesting to me and I don't want to clutter up the Trinnov thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
What do you guys think is better/more impressive? More ceiling speakers and fewer main/floor speakers or fewer ceiling speakers and more main/floor speakers?
The idea is you would like to follow what the *standard* calls for - not whether you install less ceiling to have more ground speakers, or vice versa. And the "standard" is that for the "important" channel-bed speakers, Atmos defaults to 7 - ideally you don't want to have less than that, and anything more than that is not native (not necessarily a good idea). For the object height speakers, min is 2, but you probably want 4 (the 4 covers an AREA directly over your head above so helicopter fly-by for example could go from front of you to back of you). So far we have 7.1.4.

From the above essential 7.1.4, add wide and overhead, AND even more ground object speakers if you so desire - nothing wrong with it. Just keep in mind these object speakers are mostly used to reproduce the fleeting few "seconds of Foley effects every once in a while" :-) that I mentioned. They are not as nearly as "important" as the LCR.

Some people including me believe that what the Filmmixer (wink) hears is everything - the goal is to hear what he hears, IOW what he WANTS you to hear. To do that then obviously you would like your system to be configured similar to his. If his setup is 7.1.4, then 7.1.4 is all that you need, at least for a typical hometheater room. Again I would stress that although this is the principle I follow, there is nothing wrong with preferring to have speakers everywhere - personal preference.

So the next question is then, what exactly does a Bluray Disc mastering engineer use in his mastering room? One example is here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...-blurays/19537
In addition to ProTools gear, Dolby's Atmos Project Room features a 9.1.4 configuration -- left, center, right, two pairs of side surrounds, two rear surrounds, and four overhead speakers -- but all of the Atmos mixes thus far have been mixed in 7.1.4 (only one pair of side surrounds running).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Regards, Can
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post #866 of 1026 Old 08-11-2015, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
Note that said room has no Wides, but two pairs of Side Surrounds.
Careful, a subtle but very important point: AFAIK wide = side surround. Why? The wide refers to angle from MLP; but in polar coordinates, a position is indicated by angle AND distance from reference point XXX. Wide angle but short distance "pulls" D and E forward to become "side."

I don't have photoshop with me but let me see if I could explain this way:


A_____B_____C


D___________E


F____XXX____G


__ H______I__

ABC = LCR speakers
XXX = hot seat
F and G: side surround
H and I: rear surround
D and E: See explanation above: wide = side surround. I would assume the 2 side surround/wide that are turned off in the Dolby room are D and E. Btw, this is the context that Grimani advocates using wide. The wides are not to the side of LCR but are forward of it. Why does he like them? They fill that void between ABC and FG. I hope I am not confusing, or worse, confused.

Regards, Can
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post #867 of 1026 Old 08-11-2015, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
I see what you mean, but it's all about the angles, relative to the axis MLP-center, not the distance.

As already mentioned, polar coordinate system REQUIRES distance AND angle to locate a speaker. The angle tells you only direction, adding distance locates the speaker in reference to the listener - *mandatory*.

In the example below speaker D2 has the same angle as D in reference to MLP at XXX, but they would not sound the same location wise right? If an airplane pans from front of room to back of room, D2 and D even though they share the same angle, would result in totally different result because of different distance, right?

Look at diagram, you could see a WIDE speaker (wide angle) could in fact be SIDE SURROUND. BTW, this is the exact context that Grimani refers to when he says he prefers wide. It fills in that void between ABC and FG.


D2_____A_____B_____C_____E2


_______ D___________E


_______ F____XXX____G


__________H______I____________

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
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post #868 of 1026 Old 08-11-2015, 11:41 AM
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I fail to see how D+E would sound different from D2+E2 unless the levels/delays settings were off or early reflections would be untreated.

Ideally, all listener level speakers should be equidistant from MLP. Who's right, Grimani or ITU?

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post #869 of 1026 Old 08-11-2015, 12:29 PM
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Wide speakers and side speakers differ in more than name. Wides fall into the Atmos speaker locations centered at 60 degrees from centre. Sides fall into the Atmos speaker locations centered at 75, 90 and 105 degrees from centre. While the 60 and 75 degree locations seem close enough, they're actually quite different. Not just because they're centered at different rendering assumptions, but also because wides get no channel content (and no upmixed content) while sides get the side channels (and are included in DSU upmixing). This is important because Atmos soundtracks still average roughly 90% of the sound in the bed channels. So a speaker designated as Side Surround 1 (75 degrees) will get lots of sound while a speaker designated as Wide (60 degrees) will be silently waiting for the occasional object to pan through.
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post #870 of 1026 Old 08-11-2015, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not just because they're centered at different rendering assumptions, but also because wides get no channel content (and no upmixed content) while sides get the side channels (and are included in DSU upmixing). This is important because Atmos soundtracks still average roughly 90% of the sound in the bed channels. So a speaker designated as Side Surround 1 (75 degrees) will get lots of sound while a speaker designated as Wide (60 degrees) will be silently waiting for the occasional object to pan through.

Great point. So, below sounds about right?
Wide = "object speaker" - lower usage
Side = channel (and object) speaker - higher usage

For the above reason (wide being an object speaker), as much as I respect Grimani's experience and knowledge, I am not too sure I would like to follow his recommendation of 9.1.2 over 7.1.4.

Diagram for those new to this, not for Sanjay :




Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 08-11-2015 at 09:01 PM.
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