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post #91 of 837 Old 08-29-2015, 03:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Dealing with the 12 channel immersive audio limitation: Any Format In Any Format Out


Because of the Brian Vesa disclosure of the studios re-mixing to 12 channels for Home (the horror-the horror what they did to Gravity-YUCKS), and by the current digital out limits of 16 channels on the best processors, I have been tested again by the Industry's approach to satisfying just to the minimum common denominator.

So my previous research had led me to the absolute most powerful 3d rendering engine out there, the brute force IOSONO, the unit has been evolving in the last few years to address the concept of format agnosticism being pursued as a study topic towards the goal for open source ONE Print master fits every venue topography as identified to be incorporated in Immersive Audio specification of DCI version 2.0. The very latest classified CORE features set suite is supposed to be Da Bomb!

This when used in a private screening room can remap with significant more computational power than any other processor 128 channel/objects at 96/24. Thus you could place loudspeakers where modelling indicates would sound best, or where they fit in your construction from a BIM standpoint, or to placate WAF. The unit can be front ended with other processors thus becoming format and source agnostic, and because it is an all digital chain you can create an impressive source trough processor into processor to powerdac sentinels! It is a completely loss-less holistic ecosystem; again the mid century legacy thingy.

Ideal Immersive inter-speaker placements have not changed by an inch since the Ambisonics project (early seventies) a meter and a half says dolby now whilst a speaker every five feet is what was being touted decades ago in Cambridge (ambisonics craddle), that is why in the dolby cinema room where me and others including Tony Grrimani where astounded by the personal space invasion and xyz resolution rich sound-field. That elusive debris field objects extravaganza was so bewildering to everyone that it catalyzed some of us to pursue Immersive Audio full on, at least 2 of us Tony and I have not been satisfied by any ceiling speaker placements since like the placement we heard thence. Just to think that that the expectations balloon has been deflated in the past 2 months and at home we are REALLY getting the short end of the stick. But nothing has been taken away from the mix so since no one volunteered to do this...

In order to extract with maximum verisimilitude the 128 object resolution "Deliberately Buried" inside the 12 Home Immersive Channels you need 2 things:

1)A speaker so controlled that it creates a phantom image of such solidity that you can almost see/touch it even when leaning your head to either side by +- 5 degrees. Check!

2) the GOD of all immersion rendering processors that will work in format agnostic inputs and render faithfully to any speaker topography.

Is it the Trinnov? No,no,no,no.
Only 16 channels out aes.

Is it the Dolby CP-850? No,no,no,no.;-)
64 channel 48/16cap

Is it the all mighty ATMOS Rendering and Mastering Unit? No,no,no,no.
Nope you need to stack two of them to render a 128 object Tentpole 96/24.
Hermetically closed system with open price increases ramping that because of Dolby's proposed half a point royalty on HDR is leaving a bad taste in some studios mouth already.

So what could it be? Rastaman asks...

Is it the IOSONO CORE? Ya,ya,ya,ya!



The IOSONO CORE processor is the heart of Barco‘s IOSONO immersive sound systems. It comes with a variety of features ensuring an easy installation and adaptation to individual venues. The IOSONO CORE supports object-based audio as well as all standard and future discrete multi-channel audio formats.

The IOSONO CORE comes with standard audio interfaces, a remote control software and synchronization with other media, guaranteeing a smooth integration into show control systems. IOSONO sound systems are scalable, adapting to your preferences and the characteristics of your venue. By supporting a flexible number of loudspeakers as well as 2D and 3D setups, the systems fit in perfectly.

No dedicated mixes needed

Thanks to object-based mixing, the need to create dedicated mixes for different venues and room configurations belongs to the past. With the Spatial Audio Workstation plug-in, immersive soundscapes are easily and precisely created. The VST plug-in supports up to 128 audio channels.

Venues & Hospitality – create moments to remember

Be it for concerts and live events or visitor attractions like museums or dome shows, IOSONO sound systems offer reliability, an easy integration into other show systems and a listening experience your audience won’t forget.

Retail & Branding – amplify your message with sound

Let your brand message stand out with a truly immersive media experience. The IOSONO CORE engages your customers in showrooms, flagship stores or at product events.

Simulation – realistic environments at any time

Barco’s immersive sound offers a lifelike sound experience matching the visual quality of simulation environments. An unobtrusive integration of speakers and reliable systems convince research and business customers alike.

Features

Supports all standard and future discrete multi-channel audio formats (stereo, 5.1, 7.1, 11.2, etc.)
Enhanced playback for stereo, 5.1 and 7.1 surround mixes with the Render+ add-on
Rendering up to 128 channels
MADI and/or AES I/O
Up to 96 kHz / 24 Bit
Dedicated timecode (LTC) input
Wordclock I/O
7” color touch screen for preset selection and adjustment of essential parameters
Hardware Volume Control
Remote control software for Windows
Scratch and shock resistant housing with sturdy front handles for convenient installation
Optional redundant power supply available.

Stay tuned for details in code name: IMMERSION 2025
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post #92 of 837 Old 08-29-2015, 06:08 PM
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Peter, would an ISONO be used to take a twelve channel source disc and "map" it to the actual speaker locations in a room, or, would it only make sense for private screening rooms that have professional source materials with many discrete channels/objects?
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post #93 of 837 Old 08-29-2015, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post
Peter, would an ISONO be used to take a twelve channel source disc and "map" it to the actual speaker locations in a room, or, would it only make sense for private screening rooms that have professional source materials with many discrete channels/objects?


Hi Bruce kinda yes,

In my experiments I would use the datasat(or cb or trinnov) to route everything through aes out, next year they say pc cards will have immersive format decodong and uhd bd rom so then a server becomes an interesting idea. but the idea is to take this any format in 12 aes and
render it not only to any room speaker layout but change the presentation profile as to how it images like wider t's in home atmos, tighter t's cinema atmos, whatever the dts-x cinema config is and auro...(theoretically) I'll know more about the latest firmware enhancements but I believe that is the idea to which the DCI study groups are leaning to attempt achieve.


there should be an additional 1 or 2 T pairs added to takers as well


This is Brads modified as he has an auro layer of 5 heights not shown above.Found it here:


This is my theoretic conceptaul of what minimally is needed, it needs a few more pairs as well.

Above are some rooms from Taker and Brad's and my conceptual for illustration, that can be enhanced by the beast.although for the right client we could attempt something that around the mlp would look closer to the atmos gravity premiere speaker dense imaging benchmark standard. but with input from the IO experts for maximum immersive otherwordly spectacle.







This is Uwe's speaker dense 34 speaker trinnov/quested in TRITON (but not possible with the superior aes connectivity Alcons):















The above behind the screen is similar to Albiorix's









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post #94 of 837 Old 08-29-2015, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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interoperable immersive audio with Brian Vesa

12:12 he is adding 2 heights to the bed, another surprise!

isnt 9.1 7.1 plus widths?

Did sony just stop remixing to 7.1.4 and watered it down to 7.1.2?

tbc... fell asleep so have to digest the whole thing.

He seems to be re-inforcing (mentioned on first video and rementioned on the second) his appreciation that for ambience-intensive mixes the additional Height Layers of Auro are very effective.

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post #95 of 837 Old 08-29-2015, 10:38 PM
 
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On the new Sentinel Amps:
The proprietary designed and developed Sentinel Amplified Loudspeaker Controllers are the “engine” behind every Alcons system and are designed to get the absolute maximum performance out of the pro-ribbon systems.

The ALC Sentinel features a powerful 4-channel DPS-based controller with ClassD amplifier stages. The 4 individually addressable inputs accept analogue or up to 192 kHz digital AES3 signals, that are up/down sampled to 96 kHz. by the custom high-end sample rate converters.

The future-upgradable powerful DSP engine enables minimal latency during processing of even the most complex (IIR, FIR) algorithms. Features include 6-band (shelf/pass/parametric) equalising per channel, delay, factory presets for all systems and system configurations, user-presets, event-logging and system feedback.

A Linux-based micro-computer “oversees” and controls all processes. The full-colour TFT touch screen and the multi-colour LED illuminated encoder in combination with tab-based menu structure offers intuitive control over the amplifier and processor sections, while reducing the number of “wearable” components.

The Signal Integrity Sensing™ circuit dynamically compensates the effects of long speaker cables; This results in a tight sub and bass response regardless of cable length or impedance (system damping factor of 10.000) and without the need for manually entering cable parameters. SIS™ also caters for futher reduced distortion (optimized cross-over drive).

The 4 patent-pending ClassD amplifier stages are 93% efficient and offer one of the lowest THD in the industry. Together with the 2 (redundant) switch-mode power supplies, the Sentinel3 delivers a total of 3.000 W. The modular design makes for easy “in-the-field” servicing and future upgrades.

The Power Detection Circuit automatically select the correct operating AC current 115 V / 230 V and protects against overload above 400 V.

Individual Sentinels can be simply controlled through a VNC app. on any mobile device; More complex Sentinel clusters can be controlled via the ALControl™ Ethernet-based remote-conrol connection. Internal slots are available for optional Audio-over-network plug-in modules.[/QUOTE]




All this technology talk sounds good and promising but in real world, listening and testing?? hmmmm it still has to be proven. Something I have come across so many times with audio companies and there marketing habits is the technology promises is not always as expected. MSB DACs comes to mind very much as do few other high end audio companies.


Simplicity seems to be the goal when you expecting natural sound, well in my experience that seems to be true. I shall be travelling to spore to hear a pair of Alcon's cinema line & will report soon. Sounds like Alcons amplifiers are simply a microprocessor DSP Unit all mounted as one block...... As oppose to an amplifier and a separate DSP unit.


Waveguides tend to produce better phantom images in general this is true for nearly all Ribbon or AMT mounted on a waveguide.
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post #96 of 837 Old 08-30-2015, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post
On the new Sentinel Amps:
All this technology talk sounds good and promising but in real world, listening and testing?? hmmmm it still has to be proven. Something I have come across so many times with audio companies and there marketing habits is the technology promises is not always as expected. MSB DACs comes to mind very much as do few other high end audio companies.


Simplicity seems to be the goal when you expecting natural sound, well in my experience that seems to be true. I shall be travelling to spore to hear a pair of Alcon's cinema line & will report soon. Sounds like Alcons amplifiers are simply a microprocessor DSP Unit all mounted as one block...... As oppose to an amplifier and a separate DSP unit.


Waveguides tend to produce better phantom images in general this is true for nearly all Ribbon or AMT mounted on a waveguide.
Hi Bassfeen,

Good analysis on the amp dsp integration, in fact Brad theorized about possible benefits of embedding the dirac filters right at the amp and how it would be a cool possibilty

Agreed on listening being the proof of the pudding. Agreed on MSB being too hipish in their marketing material, love the Spore abbreviation never heard it used before, and thanks on informing me about the waveguide been a phantom image solidifiers, that I want to read more of.

Can you provide us with previous articles explaining the why's?

I thought the waveguide is a way of achieving better controlled dispersion and increasing efficiency, while I always thought of phantoms being cool I recently realized (particularly under the gate restricted 12 channel limitation) that it gets bumped up the priority list for Object based audio where normal speaker imaging will not fully resolve the embeded stems as effectively, right?

To be honest a waveguide to me was a surefire way to destroy fidelity in favour of sound pressure, Alcons has gone very out of the way to highlight that the waveguides are not stiff to eliminate the typically quoted side effects. They accomplished this by forming the waveguide out of hemp.

Jeez, this conjures up images of the Rasta Gourmet yet again.

"The Acons audio waveguide"
"Do we play pink noise through them? No,no,no,no."
"Some music? No,no,no,no."
"We smoke it!"

[sorry I could not resist.]

Seriously if you have references on the ribbon waveguide phantom imaging benefit please post here.

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post #97 of 837 Old 08-30-2015, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post
On the new Sentinel Amps:
The proprietary designed and developed Sentinel Amplified Loudspeaker Controllers are the “engine” behind every Alcons system and are designed to get the absolute maximum performance out of the pro-ribbon systems.

All this technology talk sounds good and promising but in real world, listening and testing?? hmmmm it still has to be proven. Something I have come across so many times with audio companies and there marketing habits is the technology promises is not always as expected. MSB DACs comes to mind very much as do few other high end audio companies.


Simplicity seems to be the goal when you expecting natural sound, well in my experience that seems to be true. I shall be travelling to spore to hear a pair of Alcon's cinema line & will report soon. Sounds like Alcons amplifiers are simply a microprocessor DSP Unit all mounted as one block...... As oppose to an amplifier and a separate DSP unit.


Waveguides tend to produce better phantom images in general this is true for nearly all Ribbon or AMT mounted on a waveguide.
I briefly discussed the Sentinel /Speaker interaction with Tom (owner/inventor). They are very much an engineered system. I don't fully understand all the aspects of it but a few of his comments were very interesting. The "system" is designed to maximize the dynamic range of drivers (ribbon and cone). The passive crossovers are very simple and have a very flat slope. I believe he said because of this the speakers driven through a normal amp would not have a flat response. By achieving the flat or desired response with the Sentinel it allows them to get much better dynamic range from the drivers and a more seamless integration between them. Both of these aspects were clearly audible. Peter may have a better understanding of this as he has had many more discussions with them, but I got the distinct impression there was alot more going on than just using something like a high quality crown dsp amp with AES inputs.

I'll be interested to read your observations.
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post #98 of 837 Old 09-03-2015, 10:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
I briefly discussed the Sentinel /Speaker interaction with Tom (owner/inventor). They are very much an engineered system. I don't fully understand all the aspects of it but a few of his comments were very interesting. The "system" is designed to maximize the dynamic range of drivers (ribbon and cone). The passive crossovers are very simple and have a very flat slope. I believe he said because of this the speakers driven through a normal amp would not have a flat response. By achieving the flat or desired response with the Sentinel it allows them to get much better dynamic range from the drivers and a more seamless integration between them. Both of these aspects were clearly audible. Peter may have a better understanding of this as he has had many more discussions with them, but I got the distinct impression there was alot more going on than just using something like a high quality crown dsp amp with AES inputs.

I'll be interested to read your observations.

Sorry guys not had time to post much on here, I speak from personal experience only not the internet based articles to prove anything. So from the above it seems, the Amplifier is adjusting the speaker to achieve a flatter response, technically its equalizing the speaker to behave well? Are these Active Speakers or Passive?


I let you guys know when I heard a pair,
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post #99 of 837 Old 09-03-2015, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post
Are these Active Speakers or Passive?
Again, I'm far from an expert on this system, but I believe the short answer to your question is yes.

My understanding is the design philosophy is to maximize dynamic range while maintaining ultra low distortion. The passive crossovers and the Sentinel's Signal Integrity Sensing (SIS), PEQ presets and active crossovers all work to this end. The combination of the passive simple flat crossover between the ribbon mid bass driver and the Sentinel's preset PEQ also allow for some of the best high / mid driver coherence I've ever heard.

The CRMS is a bi-amped speaker with a preset active crossover in the Sentinel connecting a channel and SIS connection to the 15" bass cabinet. The upper cabinet also gets a channel and SIS connecting to a 4" pro ribbon with a simple flat passive crossover to an 8" driver. The passive crossover will not yield a flat response for the two drivers . Instead it is designed not to inhibit the dynamic range of the drivers and the flat response is achieved through the preset PEQ in the Sentinel.

This is the my understanding after brief discussion with Tom from Alcons. It was right after we listened to the demo in the warehouse.
I was commenting on the amazing coherence between the ribbon and cone mid bass , especially on the vocals. He then started to describe how the CRMS and Sentinels worked to achieve this.

We also discussed the incredible phantom imaging that Peter has discussed in detail and Tom speaks to in the video Peter posted.

Peter please feel free to correct anything I missed.
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post #100 of 837 Old 09-03-2015, 09:25 PM
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Peter, Alcons do get ripped out after a year or two of ATMOS, to become Dolby Cinema;-). These issues are decided at a completely different level. Dolby buys a ribbon speaker company, SLS, but Dolby Cinema uses Christie Vive, for wich Christie had bought a ribbon speaker company (Peter which one was that, I keep forgetting?). Christie also markets its own Vive Cinema Audio system, Wanda in China just signed an upgrade contract for many cuinema's to get Christie 2K/4K LASER projection and Vive Cinema Audio.
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Quote:
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Again, I'm far from an expert on this system, but I believe the short answer to your question is yes.

My understanding is the design philosophy is to maximize dynamic range while maintaining ultra low distortion. The passive crossovers and the Sentinel's Signal Integrity Sensing (SIS), PEQ presets and active crossovers all work to this end. The combination of the passive simple flat crossover between the ribbon mid bass driver and the Sentinel's preset PEQ also allow for some of the best high / mid driver coherence I've ever heard.

The CRMS is a bi-amped speaker with a preset active crossover in the Sentinel connecting a channel and SIS connection to the 15" bass cabinet. The upper cabinet also gets a channel and SIS connecting to a 4" pro ribbon with a simple flat passive crossover to an 8" driver. The passive crossover will not yield a flat response for the two drivers . Instead it is designed not to inhibit the dynamic range of the drivers and the flat response is achieved through the preset PEQ in the Sentinel.

This is the my understanding after brief discussion with Tom from Alcons. It was right after we listened to the demo in the warehouse.
I was commenting on the amazing coherence between the ribbon and cone mid bass , especially on the vocals. He then started to describe how the CRMS and Sentinels worked to achieve this.

We also discussed the incredible phantom imaging that Peter has discussed in detail and Tom speaks to in the video Peter posted.

Peter please feel free to correct anything I missed.


basically to my understanding all this can be done are the processor end or a active Digital processor. What these Alcons amps are doing is nothing special except by combing some of the processors flexibility or duty directly at the amplifier end.


From what I have personally tested. The Quested System excels in transparency and a very smooth sounding is mainly to do with its Analog Filters rather then a Digital system carrying out too much processing.


Comparing a Analog to a Digital crossover over when I had my LT20s and LT10 always proved the Analog were superior and natural. Everyone has different taste and some may prefer the digital sound. To me the Digital Crossover just sounded uninvolving no emotions.
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post #102 of 837 Old 09-04-2015, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post
basically to my understanding all this can be done are the processor end or a active Digital processor. What these Alcons amps are doing is nothing special except by combing some of the processors flexibility or duty directly at the amplifier end.


From what I have personally tested. The Quested System excels in transparency and a very smooth sounding is mainly to do with its Analog Filters rather then a Digital system carrying out too much processing.


Comparing a Analog to a Digital crossover over when I had my LT20s and LT10 always proved the Analog were superior and natural. Everyone has different taste and some may prefer the digital sound. To me the Digital Crossover just sounded uninvolving no emotions.
Yes what you say is very true. although I did not have a chance to listen to the lt-10's by themselves when I deployed Albiorix above (where perhaps you might have learned of the Quested's first) the digital crossover you are referring to has an adc stage in front of it, and I am sure it was doing very similarly to what I noticed when the crms sentinel amp was fed analog. All these pro audio companies (invocation of the name of the most most dishonorable reptilian company in the history of home cinema and the Ernst Stavro Blofeld to my being 007 not intended), all these pro audio companies the adc is the achiles heel. Yes the Quested analog is more musical agreed, but so is the Quested ribbons over the 10's AMT (Disclaimer I have not been able to hear the z16 but Uwe which does have a cultivated ear did a/b with the lt-10 and preferred the mundorf based over the beyma based). I do not what type of linkwitz butterworth slopes the LT-10 has in the crossover. Many many companies argue in the audiophile world that their analog crossovers are better (Rhaidho, Dynaudio), that being said do not stick your foot in the mouth before auditioning the CRMS. Also I am going to say one thing there are many situations where the alcons audio electronics might have a higher risk of susceptibility to catastrophic failure to lighting storms than the Quested amps, therefore for a custom installation company that aspires to do remote installations( what I refer to jokingly as in our case the CINERAMAX RAPID GLOBAL DEPLOYMENT FLEET manufacturer sanctioned business model where we go wherever needed ( until we had have time to test the sentinel systems in the new Lab and Brads Entertainment amenities packed Abode ) the succeptibility to operatring the alcons in non 230 volt countries is a concern, having witenessed a lighting strike disable a couple of said microprocessor-amps. In florida lighting stirkes has been a chain to drag in my experience on certain brands (early audioaccess taking the gold).

So a lot more can go wrong with the Alcons than the Quested filter based vehicle, I am not going to be naive about that, having had problems with continental built electronics over the decades in FLORIDA the lighting capital of the world. The Question also is how fast do you want to drive in your car (cinema)? 235 in a mercedes or 325 in a lambo, the mercedes being many times more reliable and safe. Fair and balanced comparison?

But if I am to show a proof of concept at CEDIA and you guys know I have an agenda for a mid-century legacy, I want to give the integrators a glimpse of what is to come. Brad and I have developed an on going dialog where we are continiously throwing theories and new ideas back and forth where it deals with this subject,him being the most intelligent person I have ever met (seriously his IQ must be easy over 155) and his background in IS fortune 500 tech stewardship (with Golden Eared audiophile refinement to boot) when it comes to his abilty to digest dsp architectures well.. again if I were to be the 007 of immersive audio he definitely would be Q branch (in fact he already is).

We are trying to circumvent the 12 channel chip limitation, but also he has suggested that it makes perfect sense to take what Barco Audio(with iosono) and Others (DTS-X) are trying to bring to the DCI World through the INTEROPERABLE ONE BIT-STREAM PRINT MASTER standards development. That that delivery of the print master re-recorded for home should be what is delivered instead of proprietary Auro, Atmos and DTS-X and that it be rendered to the speaker array at home.He even used his chips based manufacturer archtectural skills to propose a dual core architecture to companies like Theta and Datasat to eliminate this ridiculous backwards 12 channel hard coded positioning limitation.

So you are warned we reached a certain level of performance that made Quested the new reference for HT in Albiorix, Jeff's and Triton, if you share a futurist outlook to this hobby, and have the means to seek the very bleeding edge, Brad and I agree that Alcons all aes path is the best performer, Quested remains the better performer for 75% of apps when practical considerations are weighed in.

Here is something I am toying with, Brad's argument is that with HIS concept of ONE INTEROPERABL BITSREAM suitable re-recorded for home scales that a processor like what Barco is using to spearhead the INTEROPERABLE playback rendering aspect of the new IMMERSIVE AUDIO part of DCI 2.0 spec. The bitstream would go staright intoi the Iosono whereas now the atmos for example is decoded to fixed channel positions (yes with 12 objects panning around any or all.

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post #103 of 837 Old 09-04-2015, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
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basically to my understanding all this can be done are the processor end or a active Digital processor. What these Alcons amps are doing is nothing special except by combing some of the processors flexibility or duty directly at the amplifier end.


From what I have personally tested. The Quested System excels in transparency and a very smooth sounding is mainly to do with its Analog Filters rather then a Digital system carrying out too much processing.


Comparing a Analog to a Digital crossover over when I had my LT20s and LT10 always proved the Analog were superior and natural. Everyone has different taste and some may prefer the digital sound. To me the Digital Crossover just sounded uninvolving no emotions.
My music payback preferences are rooted in vinyl and tubes. I didn't like the initial ribbon speakers like Apogee and avoided CD's for their first decade. Digital playback has evolved over the last 30 years but my listening preferences have not. The Alcons system displayed none of the digital/ribbon characteristics I found displeasing in their early days.

My listening session with the Alcons was unclouded by their technology as I went in with little knowledge of it and no preconceived notions. The sound peeked my interest in that area.

"basically to my understanding all this can be done are the processor end or a active Digital processor. What these Alcons amps are doing is nothing special except by combing some of the processors flexibility or duty directly at the amplifier end."

I differ with Peter a little on this statement as it seems incomplete by negating the impact of the Sentinel's Signal Integrity Sensing (SIS) across the full driver complement. Each speaker "box" has two connections to the Sentinel; a main speaker signal connection and a feedback connection for the SIS system. It is critical in maximizing the dynamic headroom across all the drivers, but seems particularly unique in conjunction with the pro ribbon. The pro ribbon is very efficient yet can handle 1000W peaks yielding 15:1 dynamic headroom. Peter has posted detail graphs on this, but most tweeter drivers be they compression or conventional ribbons max out at 2:1 before getting breakup and distortion. I'm not aware of any DSP's that have that kind of feedback optimization across all the speaker drivers nor any speakers with the extra enabled connections. The closest I've seen are powered subwoofers with servo circuits but these are integrated engineered DSP/AMP/Driver systems. They are well accepted in improving the dynamic range of the sub.

The only digital crossover in the CRMS system is down at the LFE level crossing over to a 15" base driver. Most SSP's do this digitally as well. The bass vocal integration on the harmony selections sounded very natural. I've had a lot of subs some had digital others had analog crossovers. If well executed and tuned I can't say I have a preference in this region.

The critical 1000Hz crossover is very simple, flat and analog. If you like analog crossovers this one should have less of a signature than a conventional one.

If you don't like any DSP like Dirac with its associated house curves or PEQ then you may have an issue with the sound. I could not hear any coloration (although while listening I didn't know about their use of DSP and was just listening to the music). I know of at least one very respected member of this forum who has stated he feels Dirac is very overrated and has little use for it (although I'm not sure he felt it made the sound worse). People all have their preferences, I definitely have mine.

I'm glad my mind was not clouded with the technology when I listened to the Alcons (sometimes ignorance is bliss) as I was able to just enjoy the music. I hope you enjoy them as well.

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I differ with Peter a little on this statement as it seems incomplete by negating the impact of the Sentinel's Signal Integrity Sensing (SIS) across the full driver complement. Each speaker "box" has two connections to the Sentinel; a main speaker signal connection and a feedback connection for the SIS system. It is critical in maximizing the dynamic headroom across all the drivers, but seems particularly unique in conjunction with the pro ribbon. The pro ribbon is very efficient yet can handle 1000W peaks yielding 15:1 dynamic headroom. Peter has posted detail graphs on this, but most tweeter drivers be they compression or conventional ribbons max out at 2:1 before getting breakup and distortion. I'm not aware of any DSP's that have that kind of feedback optimization across all the speaker drivers nor any speakers with the extra enabled connections. The closest I've seen are powered subwoofers with servo circuits but these are integrated engineered DSP/AMP/Driver systems. They are well accepted in improving the dynamic range of the sub.
Hi Brad I don't disagree with your Sentinel Crms system operation analysis at all. fully concurr. Let me qualify with what I agreed on Bassfeens comment. Related to the Quested Line their digital filter not sounding as smooth as the analog crossover of the lt-8 and apparently the lt-10 going by Jeef and Bassfeen word. Their expensive digital crossover matrix sounded strident and clinical for sure. And not an inexpensive piece when bouth with an LT-20 complement. The reason for this inferior sounding chain is because of the digital tracks were sample rate converted twice and had a double gratuitous digital to analog in the case of the Albiorix Cinema Reference and Bassfeen's rs-20i, then went into the Quested digital crossover (with a not very good adc):



That x-over approach has been superseded by Q. with line level analog active plug-in filters on the Z-series.

In the Alcons case, subjectively before lighting struck I was not hearing the same coherency and signal integrity you and I heard the day before(with the crms in stereo playing some platry itunes files out of the notebook) the following day. This was because it was being fed analog out of the output of the rs-20i.

So adc's no matter how good do degrade the SQ anywhere from 20 to 40%. In my experience.

That is why I think Alcons will be the ferrari of HT on those all aes 96/24 implementations that can be adequately engineered. For remote installs and for example for a spec house's Immersive full blown system (like Moon IO) I doubt it is the more reliable idea in which case I am looking into the Quested Z's ideally if they can make a good analog crossover for the Z8 to keep simplicity to the minimum.
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So from the above it seems, the Amplifier is adjusting the speaker to achieve a flatter response, technically its equalizing the speaker to behave well?
I think JBL does the same with their system. The idea is if you know the characteristics of the driver in the speaker, plus how much power is going to them, you can push the individual drivers harder than general purpose EQ / room correction. For example, if the ribbon has a natural rolloff at some frequency, they could apply speaker EQ within the amp to boost the rolloff, making the driver run flat a bit lower. Then they can set their crossover point, slope, and all other aspects of design based on the "fixed" performance of the drivers vs native.

If you just ran the bare speakers, room correction would see a dip from the rolloff, and may cut everything else down to match, which lowers overall dynamic range. You could also end up with crossover points and slopes that aren't really optimal for the drivers. By putting their own hard coded DSP settings in the amp, they control everything, which results in a better performing speaker... although they tend to discount the initial AD conversion.

I think it causes some confusion because people see a great performing speaker that outshines the competition for $X. They think, let me just get the speaker and use my own SSP & amps. But part of only reason the speaker looks as good as it does is because its based on the bundled DSP amps and the equalization they provide.

It would be nice if the industry could follow JBL's lead, and create an open standard for speaker driver files that could be loaded into an SSP. You could load that driver file (provided by the speaker manufacturer) into an SSP. The SSP could use that information to apply both speaker correction & room correction, keeping everything in the digital domain with one set of filters to do it all.

JBL does it, but it's a closed system. Wisdom cooperated with Datasat to get the requirements for their speakers added to the RS20i, which is a step in the right direction. But it would be nice to get back to the point where you can pick your SSP, pick your amps, speakers, etc. There are advantages to the amps knowing about the speakers, and the SSP knowing about the amps but I hate to see things moving towards locking us into a particular manufactures ecosystem. I would like to see said devices either able to communicate with each other, or the manufacture communicate what their 'dumb' devices need through a driver file.

 

 

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I think it causes some confusion because people see a great performing speaker that outshines the competition for $X. They think, let me just get the speaker and use my own SSP & amps. But part of only reason the speaker looks as good as it does is because its based on the bundled DSP amps and the equalization they provide.
This made me laugh, that is exactly what I was initially thinking until I started talking to Tom and better understood what was going on.

At least the Alcons let you use your own SSP but as Peter mentioned to do it right you really need one with AES outs. This limits your choices. In general I'd prefer to have the fewest AD/DA conversions possible. It doesn't surprise me that their AD section is not on par with Datasat or Theta, as their primary market probably has mostly AES inputs.
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...
Can you provide us with previous articles explaining the why's?

I thought the waveguide is a way of achieving better controlled dispersion and increasing efficiency, while I always thought of phantoms being cool I recently realized (particularly under the gate restricted 12 channel limitation) that it gets bumped up the priority list for Object based audio where normal speaker imaging will not fully resolve the embeded stems as effectively, right?
...
Seriously if you have references on the ribbon waveguide phantom imaging benefit please post here.
My two cents: to put it very simply the better 2 channels match in frequency and time/pulse response at the listening position the better their combined output will result in a stable, well defined phantom image. Waveguides decrease inter-channel deviations somewhat by controlling dispersion and therefor increasing the direct sound ratio. But like anything in life they also have their fair share of disadvantages - even when being made out of hemp like the Alcons ;-)
But that's only half the story - the real reason for excellent phantom images by Alcons is likely something else. At this point I can only speculate without first hand experience, but if I understand correctly they use the Sentinel integrated DSP for response shaping (I presume even in the time domain, as FIR filtering seems to be an option). If they do that for each individual speaker and approach coherent (frequency+phase) output from each it will result in vastly improved "phantom images".
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My two cents: to put it very simply the better 2 channels match in frequency and time/pulse response at the listening position the better their combined output will result in a stable, well defined phantom image. Waveguides decrease inter-channel deviations somewhat by controlling dispersion and therefor increasing the direct sound ratio. But like anything in life they also have their fair share of disadvantages - even when being made out of hemp like the Alcons ;-)
But that's only half the story - the real reason for excellent phantom images by Alcons is likely something else. At this point I can only speculate without first hand experience, but if I understand correctly they use the Sentinel integrated DSP for response shaping (I presume even in the time domain, as FIR filtering seems to be an option). If they do that for each individual speaker and approach coherent (frequency+phase) output from each it will result in vastly improved "phantom images".

Is this not what Dirac does?
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Hi Brad I don't disagree with your Sentinel Crms system operation analysis at all. fully concurr. Let me qualify with what I agreed on Bassfeens comment. Related to the Quested Line their digital filter not sounding as smooth as the analog crossover of the lt-8 and apparently the lt-10 going by Jeef and Bassfeen word. Their expensive digital crossover matrix sounded strident and clinical for sure. And not an inexpensive piece when bouth with an LT-20 complement. The reason for this inferior sounding chain is because of the digital tracks were sample rate converted twice and had a double gratuitous digital to analog in the case of the Albiorix Cinema Reference and Bassfeen's rs-20i, then went into the Quested digital crossover (with a not very good adc):



That x-over approach has been superseded by Q. with line level analog active plug-in filters on the Z-series.

In the Alcons case, subjectively before lighting struck I was not hearing the same coherency and signal integrity you and I heard the day before(with the crms in stereo playing some platry itunes files out of the notebook) the following day. This was because it was being fed analog out of the output of the rs-20i.

So adc's no matter how good do degrade the SQ anywhere from 20 to 40%. In my experience.

That is why I think Alcons will be the ferrari of HT on those all aes 96/24 implementations that can be adequately engineered. For remote installs and for example for a spec house's Immersive full blown system (like Moon IO) I doubt it is the more reliable idea in which case I am looking into the Quested Z's ideally if they can make a good analog crossover for the Z8 to keep simplicity to the minimum.


Your assumption of me using the Quested Digital crossover is wrong, iv never used this unit in my system. I have used the Datasat and also compared it to another digital crossover. Out of all the setup and experimentation, I preferred the pre directly into the Quested amplifier which has the Analog Crossover installed. This sounded to me cleaner, natural, & more evolving emotionally on musical sound tracks and movies.


Iv also tested The Quested Amplifiers with (Analog Cards) connected to My MSB Diamond DAC and Tube Preamplifier as 2 Channel setup. This by far in my space produced the most natural presentation of music. It was emotionally involving. I have also downgraded the DAC to a Analog DAC from MSB line and this overall sounded even better to me over a 3 hour listening session. I have both DACs and just recently sold of my Diamond DAC, just could not justify keeping this DAC for what its worth.


I have heard the Z Series too, they are more refined and designed for smaller to mid Size rooms, Where the LT10 and LT20 take over is if you have massive rooms as the larger AMT project the power better in very large spaces. However for most people the New Z Series should be the one to go for.


Z Series or LT Series to me are the reference level in Audio playback and have outperformed some of my more expensive 2 channel speakers I have had the chance to own. Iv gone through many amplifiers and speakers in the past and sold many on AVS, Audiocircle and Audiogone. Still to this day the Quested system has made a lasting impression.


I no longer own a Quested System as my LT10, LT8s and LT20s were sold off, but I will own them again in the future. It is not only about the tweeter but the overall quality of sound one gets from the Quested systems. It just works and does it very well.


Anyways guys wish you the best of luck on your alcons system. I'm just expressing what I have experienced. I have heard and owned most of the Pro Audio stuff recommended on this forums no need to name other speaker manufactures here all are good in there own way. After all in audio perception we all have different tastes.
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BTW, When I go back to Quested, I am going for the New Z Series Z16 and Z8s and the passive Z8s I have asked roger Quested to work on for me. I think my Speaker & Amplifier merry go round has ended. The headaches now starts for the hunt of a capable processor which does not cost as much as a car as this technology moves at the speed of light. My new room will be much smaller than my previous room where the LT20 and 10s were installed in, so I think the Z Series will be perfect fit.
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All this technology talk sounds good and promising but in real world, listening and testing?? hmmmm it still has to be proven. Something I have come across so many times with audio companies and there marketing habits is the technology promises is not always as expected. MSB DACs comes to mind very much as do few other high end audio companies.


Simplicity seems to be the goal when you expecting natural sound, well in my experience that seems to be true. I shall be travelling to spore to hear a pair of Alcon's cinema line & will report soon. Sounds like Alcons amplifiers are simply a microprocessor DSP Unit all mounted as one block...... As oppose to an amplifier and a separate DSP unit.


Waveguides tend to produce better phantom images in general this is true for nearly all Ribbon or AMT mounted on a waveguide.

Do let us know what you think of the Alcon's and of the Alcon's vs Quested once you listen to them. Any idea of when you expect to hear the Alcon's? Which Alcon's are you expecting to listen too?
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But that's only half the story - the real reason for excellent phantom images by Alcons is likely something else. At this point I can only speculate without first hand experience, but if I understand correctly they use the Sentinel integrated DSP for response shaping (I presume even in the time domain, as FIR filtering seems to be an option). If they do that for each individual speaker and approach coherent (frequency+phase) output from each it will result in vastly improved "phantom images".
I believe you are correct as David from Alcons has mentioned time alignment being done and avoiding what he referred to as time smear. To what degree I'm not sure, but I did have a discussion with him and Tom about considering deploying Dirac filters on the Sentinel, it would be interesting if their implementation could get their SIS to work with the new Unison capabilities.

My understanding of the wave guides was to maximize direct sound coverage and minimize unwanted reflections, but we did not have much discussion on this.
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I believe you are correct as David from Alcons has mentioned time alignment being done and avoiding what he referred to as time smear. To what degree I'm not sure, but I did have a discussion with him and Tom about considering deploying Dirac filters on the Sentinel, it would be interesting if their implementation could get their SIS to work with the new Unison capabilities.

My understanding of the wave guides was to maximize direct sound coverage and minimize unwanted reflections, but we did not have much discussion on this.
By the way The Lion made a generous offer to assist on the CEDIA IMMERSION 2025 INTEROPERABLE IMMERSIVE AUDIO proof of concept to which we could not say no (I will email you his CV, ideal to the task), he even now got a CINERAMAX.com email address and will be an officer in the GLOBAL IMMERSION RAPID DEPLOYMENT FLEET (with Q's for now). You two are going to love picking each other's brains. Donald also is getting a similar email account because he has demonstrated top proficiency in HDR. The cat is out of the bag!
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post #114 of 837 Old 09-06-2015, 05:09 AM
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I believe you are correct as David from Alcons has mentioned time alignment being done and avoiding what he referred to as time smear. To what degree I'm not sure, but I did have a discussion with him and Tom about considering deploying Dirac filters on the Sentinel, it would be interesting if their implementation could get their SIS to work with the new Unison capabilities.

My understanding of the wave guides was to maximize direct sound coverage and minimize unwanted reflections, but we did not have much discussion on this.
It will be interesting to see if Alcons uses per-driver digital delays or goes a (huge) step further: targeting linear phase response throughout the passband (therefor correcting the phase shifts of any individual driver as well as the speaker including XOs as a whole).

Yes, "Unison" is a very interesting concept with huge potential. But once you step from a controlled setting (like car interior) to arbitrary room/speaker configurations complexity gets really tough to manage, as are the demands for DSP horsepower. Don't expect any consumer auto EQ/"press one button"/DIY solutions ;-) I have been in contact with the Unison project manager for quite some time - I hope to beta test/evaluate by early next year. For Unison it is also essential to have the processing of all channels/drivers interconnected - so one central box instead of putting it into individual DSP amps/Sentinels.
The basic concepts behind Unison are wave/sound field synthesis and "active acoustic treatment". Some may consider these the holy grail of DRC especially for immersive audio. I do basically they same thing "by hand" strictly isolated to the sub bass range by implementing a hand-tuned "double bass array". Applying these principles to the entire passband with all subs/speakers involved is the idea of Unison.

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For Unison it is also essential to have the processing of all channels/drivers interconnected - so one central box instead of putting it into individual DSP amps/Sentinels.
.
I thought that might be the case, we discussed that possibility, they may be limited to Dirac live on the Sentinels. They do have PC controller software that connects to all the Sentinels and could be used for filter creation, but I'm not sure its applicable for that level of runtime interaction.

It sounds like you have a great depth of knowledge in this area, I hope you get a chance to talk to Tom, I'll be interested in your analysis.
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I thought that might be the case, we discussed that possibility, they may be limited to Dirac live on the Sentinels. They do have PC controller software that connects to all the Sentinels and could be used for filter creation, but I'm not sure its applicable for that level of runtime interaction.

It sounds like you have a great depth of knowledge in this area, I hope you get a chance to talk to Tom, I'll be interested in your analysis.
Thanks. I certainly look forward to meeting Tom.

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Cool

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Thanks. I certainly look forward to meeting Tom.
#2 Can you share your Quested insights it appears that both you and Bassfeen have had excellent results in implementing your own house type cross-overing with the LT-20's. Anything you can share would be beneficial to this discussion.

At the end of the day your post CEDIA Alcons experience will place you in a position to candorly compare both B-Chains.

I still stand by Alcons being the reference due to the coherence and the Casper Holo-Phantom Factor.

But Bassfeen regardless of your love for Quested, do sclepp over to Spore and give them a listen, if only for the benefit of the community, besides (having just seen Hitman 2- 25x times better movie than Hitman 1 - what incredible architecture this city has).
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Do let us know what you think of the Alcon's and of the Alcon's vs Quested once you listen to them. Any idea of when you expect to hear the Alcon's? Which Alcon's are you expecting to listen too?
I agree as in above post that Bassfeen should hold his commitment to travel to beautiful Spore and listen. I have had a chance to hear a sample of every speaker variant in the line, including the small curvilinear arrays after proper setup a day after Brad and I listened to the straight from I book feeding the sentinel 3 with paltry mp3 files which blew us away, from what I heard on the second session it would not be an innacuracy to postulate every speaker in the Alcons line sounds tonally essentially the same, a benefit of the dsp I guess.

So Bassfeen It is not the time nor the place to start with early justifications like saying everyone has a different ear,no sirreebob.
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post #119 of 837 Old 09-07-2015, 06:57 AM
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#2 Can you share your Quested insights it appears that both you and Bassfeen have had excellent results in implementing your own house type cross-overing with the LT-20's. Anything you can share would be beneficial to this discussion.

At the end of the day your post CEDIA Alcons experience will place you in a position to candorly compare both B-Chains.

...
Once you have a system that allows for very flexible shaping of frequency/phase/pulse/step response on a per driver basis traditional remarks like "Speaker A "sounds better" than Speaker B in this and that regard" become rather moot. Within physical limits (like dispersion/directivity/On-Off axis response, LF/HF extension, distortion characteristics,...) it enables to achieve the output at listening position you are looking for, or even mimic the "sound of other speakers/driver technologies".
XO design is a good example for that. With each option and parameter the speaker sounds different - no night and day differences, but relevant ones for the trained ear. In my opinion it doesn't make much sense to do your own XO design if you are limited to minimum phase/IIR filters - than you should trust in the experience, expertise and golden ears of Roger and company and stay with the integrated passive XO (LR12 between HF and MF) or the active amp filter card. Things get interesting when linear phase FIR based digital crossovers can be used. I have spent much time finding a configuration that arguably worked "best". So finding the sweet spot of XO frequencies, Butterworth/LR/Neville Thiele/Bessel.. and different filter slopes is a very time consuming task. Linear phase naturally lessens the impact of different filter types, but they are still relevant. The basis are near field driver measurements in order to linearize their freq. and phase response.

I attached two pictures ("before" and "after" if you like):

1) Before: unsmoothed on-axis nearfield mid freq. and AMT response of a LT20 with applied NT XO.

If you look for example at the >10khz response of the Beyma AMT you may find hints why some may prefer Mundorf, RAAL or other AMT/Ribbon drivers. But rest assured that the Beyma has its own set of distinct advantages and I consider it an excellent driver. Especially after linearization =>

2) After: the resulting summed response after driver linearization and XO design.

This is prior to any digital room correction - just speaker optimization to get a targeted near field response.
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Is this not what Dirac does?
What does BBC Research's open source video compression codec got to don with this?
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