What would your $70,000 home theater consist of? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 143 Old 07-12-2015, 10:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Hitachi was also showing an HLD ColorSpark LCD projector at Infocomm. Blue LED surface area can be larger because they shine into a rod from the side, the rod converts blue into green and the green comes out the front. Matched with Red and Blue LEDs. Still lumens are now at 1200. The roadmap ends around the 2000 mark for standard 0.65" DMDs. Yeah Philips touts much higher numbers, but there is an 55% drop from green heavy white light to colour accurate RGB mode. 2000 lumens allows for a 2m2 screen if one wants modest hdr at 1000 nits.

These are not new LEDs, but lightaggregator/convertors that have imager matching etendue.

Seegs did they make you sign anything...
I was told informally last fall by someone who I'd consider to be in-the-know. So no, I didn't sign anything.
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post #32 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 04:55 AM
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Kain

I live in Mirdiff. I have a half way decent system - work in progress. RS20i + Quested fronts (20s) + Sony 1100 + ... PM me if you wish to audition.
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post #33 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 07:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Hitachi was also showing an HLD ColorSpark LCD projector at Infocomm. Blue LED surface area can be larger because they shine into a rod from the side, the rod converts blue into green and the green comes out the front. Matched with Red and Blue LEDs. Still lumens are now at 1200. The roadmap ends around the 2000 mark for standard 0.65" DMDs. Yeah Philips touts much higher numbers, but there is an 55% drop from green heavy white light to colour accurate RGB mode. 2000 lumens allows for a 2m2 screen if one wants modest hdr at 1000 nits.

These are not new LEDs, but lightaggregator/convertors that have imager matching etendue.

Seegs did they make you sign anything...

saw this at display summit.not bad.
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post #34 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 08:34 AM
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Indeed white point of the Philips demoprojector was spot on, there was some deficiency in the intense greens according to Chris in the color perception study. Also in Blue LASER-Phosphor, so that is one of the issues to be addressed in Solid State illumination.
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post #35 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Without a doubt, DLP is THE front projection king in every area with the exception being on/off contrast. These new "tandem" dual DMD light engine projectors are extremely exciting. Lasers are just icing on the cake. In the home theater segment I'd like to see a dual (2) DMD setup with high output LEDs. We'd still be forced into sequential color but with the right LEDs and LED controller we can achieve an extremely fast on/off time around 1µs (1 Million cycles/sec) as already seen with the OSRAM RAPCUR LED driver module. A Rapcur like board can achieve the 1200Hz RGB Frequency, which eliminates RBE on a humanly perceptible level. Apparently Philips is working with Coretronics on developing a 1000+ lumen LED module. Supposedly the diodes are twice the surface area compared to the Phlatlight PT 120s that have been used by many manufacturers in the past (Barco/projectiondesign, Delta/Vivitek, ChiLin, ect) which only achieve ~600 REC709 lumens in several different light engines. For home theater these new LEDs could be a win. 1000+ lumens, larger than P3 color gamut support (native - without filters), extremely high native on/off contrast, single-chip-like sharpness, and the potential for great lens quality and high ANSI contrast.
I enjoy reading your comprehensive yet easy to understand posts - visit Ultra more often. A couple of questions please.

In previous post you recommended 2 LCOS projectors, Sony and JVC, but yet here mentioned DLP is king in every (other?) area except contrast.
1. I take this to mean that the contrast advantage of LCOS outshines DLP's other advantages? Or that to you contrast is the most important parameter?
2. Every other area as in, sharpness, color saturation/quality, max brightness? Did I miss something else? (I am a noob when it comes to projector technology but quite a seasoned pixel peeper in photography and related picture quality considerations.)

3. Sorry for these basic questions: A single chip projector (DLP) is *always* sharper than a 3 chip (JVC)? What's the disadvantages (of single chip) then - the color wheel?

Regards, Can
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post #36 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
This is an extremely small space in the context of home theater. There are a plethora of speaker options out there that will yield amazing results. You've got the budget for the speakers Peter is suggesting. The reason JTR and Seaton speakers are liked so much on the forum is because of their extreme value. I've met Mark Seaton and he is a wonderful guy who knows his stuff. I was at a HT meet and he attended to make sure his set of speakers the meet's host had purchased were calibrated and set up properly for the meet. They sounded amazing. I'm partial to my JTR Triple 8 + Danley DTS-10 setup but those Seatons sounded amazing.

With your budget I think you'll find that building the room properly for the speakers is going to be most important in terms of how any of these suggested speaker systems will sound. I'd hire someone like Dennis Erskine (of the Erkine group) to design your room acoustically to get the best out of whatever system you ultimately decide to go with.

You mention this budget is for just for equipment and acoustical stuff. Does "equipment" also mean the video portion of your equipment? I read you were thinking about going with an OLED. Personally, I think you can do a lot better with a front projection setup. Even in your small room there are a ton of amazing options out there that can yield you the biggest screen possible in your rather limited sized room and throw. Aside from some of the commercial 3-chip DLPs I've owned just about every "home theater" projector worth owning that's been released over the past ~10 years (list here). In your room I'd recommend checking out the Sony VPL-VW1100ES or a JVC DLA-X700. These will yield you the best overall image quality out there until these 4 or 6 DMD DLP projectors (ultra high contrast) come down to consumer levels. I'm assuming Peter would scoff at this assessment but the extremely low (in relative terms) on/off contrast of commercial DLP projectors just won't cut it in your room. High ANSI contrast, brightness, and high lens quality can only get you so far. There's really nothing quite like having a ton of on/off contrast. The Sony VPL-VW1100 has probably the best combination of image quality assets out there currently. ~1800 calibrated REC709 lumens, ~650:1 ANSI contrast, top shelf optics (relative to home theater units) 10000:1+ native on/off contrast (more if you can get towards the telephoto end of the lens), the best dynamic iris algorithms in the business which yields ~50000:1 usable dynamic contrast (black level is extremely low but anything more than a few bright pixels forces the iris to open quite a bit back to ~50000:1), is 4K, has HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0 ports, has a P3 color filter, does frame sequential (blu-ray) 3D better than any non-DLP projector I've seen, is extremely quite and has a great set of high quality video processing on board. Combine this with an ISCO IIIL or ISCO 1.25x anamorphic lens and you'll be in heaven. The JVC DLA-X700 is an excellent choice as well and has the highest native on/off contrast of any current home theater based projector out there, but doesn't quite meet the Sony in the other areas such as lens quality, ANSI contrast, brightness, and native resolution/future proof-ness. I'm currently using a combination of these three items (1100ES, X500, and ISCO IIIL) and love it. A nice anamorphic 10 foot+ wide acoustically transparent screen screen could be an amazing video setup to match your audio system. I don't think an OLED "screen" can give the same aesthetically pleasing experience front projection can give. Especially anamorphic front projection. I've seen the large 70"+ OLEDs and they just don't give me that "theater" aesthetic in terms of image quality that a nice front projection setup can give. This is just something to think about.

I second this. Go projector and screen. That's a theater. I don't care how big your TV is. It's still a TV. I could build a nice theater for $70K for just equipment. In fact, I've probably paid less than that with construction and furniture and I have 2 Stewart electric screens, a Sim Lumis Host and a VW600 to boot.
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post #37 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
1. I take this to mean that the contrast advantage of LCOS outshines DLP's other advantages? Or that to you contrast is the most important parameter?
Gagging, vomiting, taking cyanide pill, committing seppuku and with last breath shooting my brains out.

A good projected image will make you release endorphins (the better the projector the bigger the payload), specially in 3D, Studies in Canada have concluded that, and the heath medicine system will pay for 3d projection rooms in old age homes to deal with depression and extended quality of life.

I consider LCOS an asphyxiating endorphin-deprived vehicle that even you put space telescope optics in it, it still asphyxiating, that serious disqualification could be exacerbated by negative light caves.

Whomever thinks lcos is a good recommendation simply has not been exposed to the very best in imaging out there, perception is learned and by fanaticallly attaching yourself to the cr. cause you are missing the other benefits... We obviously Live in 2 separate worlds.
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post #38 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 09:07 AM
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Gagging, vomiting, taking cyanide pill, committing seppuku and with last breath shooting my brains out.
Sounds like a fleet enema is in order.

Kidding aside, reminder of the title of this thread (70k for everything, and size of this room, and hence, size of screen).

Regards, Can
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post #39 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Sounds like a fleet enema is in order.

Kidding aside, reminder of the title of this thread (70k for everything, and size of this room, and hence, size of screen).

Absolutely. I help people build their first home theaters all the time. A good home theater is better than no home theater. Since very few people will ever have one of Cineramax's " God Like " home theaters. But that's ok. If you can't afford a Rolls Royce, would you rather drive a Kia, or would you rather walk ?
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post #40 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 01:08 PM
 
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Hey I am the one here with the budget immersive audio system from hell. I fully expect with the new led or blu push phosphor technology and the new dlp 4k chips, that great things are coming next year if not for a 70K theater, certainly for a 95K. And in three years who knows. Without lcos defficiencies.

Kain do not give up on dlp.

Cheers!

Over out.
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post #41 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SolitaryTraveler View Post
Kain

I live in Mirdiff. I have a half way decent system - work in progress. RS20i + Quested fronts (20s) + Sony 1100 + ... PM me if you wish to audition.
Tx
Cheers
Thanks for the offer and that sounds like a very nice setup.

Will surely let you know when I'm ready for an audition.

As for everyone else, thanks a lot for the replies. How much does a good 4K DLP projector cost? I am totally out of the loop with projectors. Secondly, if I cannot place the screen on the wall, is it possible to get a stand or something for the screen and place the LCR speakers behind the screen?
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post #42 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 04:30 PM
 
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post

As for everyone else, thanks a lot for the replies. How much does a good 4K DLP projector cost? I am totally out of the loop with projectors. Secondly, if I cannot place the screen on the wall, is it possible to get a stand or something for the screen and place the LCR speakers behind the screen?
Yes screens come with stands that will permit to place speakers behind. When you take advantage of the demo offer, you will be listening to a system made of my past discoveries, the transparency and dynamics will captivate you, the alcons promise is to take that fabulous perfect sound up another level of controlled pinpoint 3d imaging .

there will be 4 Barco 4k PJ's at CEDIA that come out next year. The one in picture is blu-laser and has a very respectable lens.

Look at the compactness of that puppy.

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post #43 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 04:49 PM
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Xenon probably 70K+
Hybrid Phosphor LASER a bit more (NEC commercial/DCi?)
3 DMD LED 100-150K
Then there is the big jump to RGB LASER 200K and up, till way up to around 2 million for the biggest Dolby Vision Dual Head projector.

These are all first gen products/projection systems from a commercial perspective, so these are sold to applications where there is little alternative (very large and 3D screens), or premium brightness and colour theaters. Sold on Total Cost of Ownership comparison models. So we will see something less way out there when they have worked out the kinks on the biggest and brightest and most expensive systems, systems LASER in one form or another can be competitve, now.

The NEC commercial 4K Hybrid phosphor laser was launched earlier this year at a listtprice of €79K, already a price breakthrough for 4K DLP in itself. There is now a version of this that is DCi certified, as well.

As for front projection and only front projection being the real thing, Directview LED has taken the top spot in the absolute money is no object arena. Hate being forced to sitting in the dark. That can be nice on occassion, but often I like some ambient light. Caveat I have yet to see Dolby Vision projection, and though the average brightness of small pitch (COB/single anode) is high, these are not yet designed for HDR. Add an anti-moire coating...

Peter for those that do prefer LCoS Barco is also very large in that area, so I'll expect HDR Solid State illumination LCoS projectors from the Flemish to cater to the huge simulation market.

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post #44 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 04:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I enjoy reading your comprehensive yet easy to understand posts - visit Ultra more often. A couple of questions please.

In previous post you recommended 2 LCOS projectors, Sony and JVC, but yet here mentioned DLP is king in every (other?) area except contrast.
1. I take this to mean that the contrast advantage of LCOS outshines DLP's other advantages? Or that to you contrast is the most important parameter?
2. Every other area as in, sharpness, color saturation/quality, max brightness? Did I miss something else? (I am a noob when it comes to projector technology but quite a seasoned pixel peeper in photography and related picture quality considerations.)

3. Sorry for these basic questions: A single chip projector (DLP) is *always* sharper than a 3 chip (JVC)? What's the disadvantages (of single chip) then - the color wheel?
1+2. Yes, this is what I mean. Contrast, more specifically native on/off contrast, is generally regarded as the more important contrast measurement when it comes to most of the current measurement methods. Despite what Peter may think, LCoS no doubt is the undisputed king right now in the home theater market when it comes to native on/off contrast and that the extra contrast performance can give a subjectively better overall image despite a few deficits in other areas. That is, even if motion, 3D depth to the image and bleeding edge sharpness isn't quite there you can still appreciate the large advantage in on/off contrast one projector has more than these other attributes. Yes, there are some pretty expensive dual DLP DMD light engine designs out there that can do 40000:1+ native on/off contrast but most other commercial machines are lucky to put out more than 2500:1 on/off contrast. DLP is currently the market leader in terms of white field uniformity, color uniformity, native grey to grey response time (25 microseconds) which directly relates to subjectively great motion performance and DLP is great when it comes to frame sequential 3D (which is what you find on 3d blu-ray and is also directly tied to it's top shelf native response time). LCoS has it's advantages is on/off contrast and slightly higher pixel fill. DLP is not, by default, better at color saturation, sharpness and max brightness. Though DLP tends to be able to push more lumens due to the way DMDs can be cooled and the non-organic and extremely high temperature resistant nature of the DLP DMDs. But in theory you can get extremely bright, sharp, and highly saturated color with an LCD-variant technology like LCoS. But of course the light engine, cooling and light source will need to be taken into consideration if you want these attributes. Typically you see higher ANSI contrast with DLP projectors, but currently (and like my previous example of non-default wins DLP sometimes gets) LCD variant projectors can have high ANSI contrast as well. One of these units would be the Sony VPL-VW1100ES as it has abnormally high ANSI contrast for an LCoS projector. Around 650:1. This is definitely due in part to it's high end lens and higher than average quality light engine parts (the optical block and filters for example).

3. This is kind of an ambiguous question. The word "sharpness" can be taken many ways. It can be measured (MTF) and it can be perceived. I think a lot of people talk about sharpness in the subjective sense about how an image is perceived and this is how I'll answer your question. No, I do not think a single chip DLP projector is, by default, sharper. Sure there are some extremely sharp single chip DLPs out there such as the Marantz VP-11s2, Samsung SP-A900B, and even the Planar PD8150. These units by coincidence have above average lenses in the context of home theater. They also will measure high MTF as well and in this sense may be some of the highest measured sharpness out there in home theater oriented projectors. But that doesn't mean I haven't seen a subjectively sharper looking image. The Sony VPL-VW1100ES has an even sharper looking image. The Sim2 Lumis HOST and Runco LS-10i also had sharper appearing images. Both of these units are 3-chip DLPs and didn't exhibit perfect convergence and still their images appeared sharper. From a subjective point of view, I think it's fair to say that even if something measures higher in sharpness (MTF) it doesn't always mean that it will look sharper. One of the biggest reasons I think these images looked sharper to the eye had to do with the one quality these three units have in spades; brightness. All three also have very good lenses which delineate pixels quite well, show very low chromatic abberations and all three have high ANSI contrast. It's a combination of these things that give you that "wow" factor when it comes to perceived sharpness.

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post #45 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 04:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Gagging, vomiting, taking cyanide pill, committing seppuku and with last breath shooting my brains out.

A good projected image will make you release endorphins (the better the projector the bigger the payload), specially in 3D, Studies in Canada have concluded that, and the heath medicine system will pay for 3d projection rooms in old age homes to deal with depression and extended quality of life.

I consider LCOS an asphyxiating endorphin-deprived vehicle that even you put space telescope optics in it, it still asphyxiating, that serious disqualification could be exacerbated by negative light caves.

Whomever thinks lcos is a good recommendation simply has not been exposed to the very best in imaging out there, perception is learned and by fanaticallly attaching yourself to the cr. cause you are missing the other benefits... We obviously Live in 2 separate worlds.
And I would make a large wager that if we were to brightness match one of your Barco units with the Sony VPL-VW1100ES and place each respective image next to one another at the same size and have a viewing test with random people off the street, over 75% would prefer the image from the Sony. On/off contrast matters. A lot more than your overly enthusiastic adjectives lead on about. I also think the Sony's other attributes such as higher than average ANSI contrast for an LCoS unit and very respectable lens will negate an overwhelming amount of the advantages a high end commercial three-chip DLP projector brings to the table with real content playing on a humanly perceptible level. And this is coming from someone who respects a good DLP image. I want DLP to win out in the end. As I've said, I do think it's the best mirco-display technology currently available, but I just don't think it can win out in the end in the consumer space without a great leap forward in potential on/off contrast. I think TI is forcing manufacturers into dual DMD/dual light engine designs to give us that.

I think a lot of your posts are aimed more towards commercial interests or the extremely wealthy who can afford these machines and an appropriately large enough space to properly utilize one and I'm saying that even in the context of this sub-forum. I just wanted to point that out because my whole point of view comes from a purely consumer based "home theater" perspective on these matters.

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Let's say you are space-restricted and your room size is roughly 12 feet x 11 feet x 9.5 feet. You want the best sound for movies (loud, clear, and impactful) but also want good sound for music. The budget is solely for equipment and treatments and not for furniture. What would you build?

This is what I have in mind so feel free to comment: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ult...2-3-years.html
I would do one stop shopping with a JBL Synthesis system:
http://www.jblsynthesis.com/

The majority of theaters use JBL equipment, the majority of movies are mixed on Lexicon gear (both JBL and Lexicon are divisions of Harman Kardon). The local JBL team come into your space, look at your budget, customize the build and then use their proprietary equalizer to tune the setup to your room.
http://www.jblsynthesis.com/about/acoustics/
They do everything for you except put the disc in the blue ray player.

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post #47 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 05:32 PM
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Seegs over the years Peter has been pursuing higher sequential contrast for large DLP projectors for years. The original SuperKontrast was posted here in what 2009/2010. Even with all the efforts excerted, on-off contrast remained limited, the weighing between sequential contrast, and ANSI contrast, MTF, and all the other good things you mention, was heavily debated here in the years past. Peter has stood his ground on DCi DLP with as much modding as workable for increased on-off contrast.

With the new RGB LASER illuminated units there is more light to trade in for sequential contrast, but even at for instance 10K:1, an huge step up from readily available 2000-2500:1, this is not to be compared to the low brightness LCoS from JVC, or the Sony VW line, with much higher 20K-50K:1 on-off contrast. However keep in mind the best Sony DCi machines only offer 8K:1 either, bright projectors always have lower sequential contrast, regardless of the imager technology used.

And Peter is currently pushing the envelop on the absolute best, even though he keeps telling us that hurts his eyes;-).Unfortunately even at the absolute high-end there are limits, like by the look of things Christie prefering to re-engineeer first for other markets, over immediate sales, of the existing product that requires tight control over them dangerous LASERs.

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post #48 of 143 Old 07-13-2015, 05:47 PM
 
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I see your practical approach and yes I view things in terms of absolute (price not a consideration in the topp down design process) I do have experienced 6 years of the very best projectors and find the on-off contrast past our 8k-1 mods (after that point) becomes less of a priority to other image superlatives endemic to DCI, not with DCI clips but plain kaleidescape, also big fan of 3d and teranex converted 3d, it's highly therapeutic. So past 8-k1 10-11k-1 necessary to give 10-fstop hdr (UHD BD compliant level) with laser, excuse me but the Last upcoming sony laser demoes are laughable to me and talking about 100,000-1 is something that the content creator did not intend so is akin to turning a giant contrast knob.

Perception is learned I have spent the last 6 years examining the development of the highest end, 4 forum members made it into the cinemacon dolby premiere taker and I were 2 and have the same calibrated observations We found the dynamic range of the 65,000-1 system 20% too rich at the top and 5% crushing at the bottom, so your double light engine "thing to wait for" has been overbuilt with 25% excess capacity, then you take RealD's study that the maximum room contrast in commercial venue possible caps at 40k-1 and now all that is needed is 10k-1 to a max 20k-1 to do hdr in a screening room, the former Alan already has measure in his Barco, the later is possible removing the prism like Imax does. This gives us hope.

If you see the laser hdr panel discussions when chris chinook says about exit poll studies in high brightness 3D I give him the
.

By the same token you take the cake in the research of consumer projectors , and your Perception is very well studied in that range.

Like I say in the youtube It would be wrong to show a population of joe blows the shootout you propose, but weeding out the non expert viewers at cedia, with me pointing out what to look for ahead so that these expert viewers can confirm or not the claims, then yes your sony will be sent packing...

You need expert watchers pointing out these new technology demos. Of course we are talking a nice toyota versus a nice porsche. The porsche will win.... in absolute contexts. Don't let the fact that I work on exotics confuse you with my social responsibility long term goals the backbone of my efforts.

Many of such efforts have been proven to spread inexpensively to the masses within 1-2 decades delayed effect span. Began dabbling into the origins of immersive cinema in 1979.


I know things about squeezing actual resolution out of these top of line projectors that even the very top 5 experts in the world did not know anyone would be involved to the level of perfectionism, optically my standards are above every one elses, specially sony.

See this part.

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Seegs over the years Peter has been pursuing higher sequential contrast for large DLP projectors for years. The original SuperKontrast was posted here in what 2009/2010. Even with all the efforts excerted, on-off contrast remained limited, the weighing between sequential contrast, and ANSI contrast, MTF, and all the other good things you mention, was heavily debated here in the years past. Peter has stood his ground on DCi DLP with as much modding as workable for increased on-off contrast.

With the new RGB LASER illuminated units there is more light to trade in for sequential contrast, but even at for instance 10K:1, an huge step up from readily available 2000-2500:1, this is not to be compared to the low brightness LCoS from JVC, or the Sony VW line, with much higher 20K-50K:1 on-off contrast. However keep in mind the best Sony DCi machines only offer 8K:1 either, bright projectors always have lower sequential contrast, regardless of the imager technology used.

And Peter is currently pushing the envelop on the absolute best, even though he keeps telling us that hurts his eyes;-).Unfortunately even at the absolute high-end there are limits, like by the look of things Christie prefering to re-engineeer first for other markets, over immediate sales, of the existing product that requires tight control over them dangerous LASERs.
I respect Peter for that. It's important that we see commercial projectors making the same types of leaps and bounds we've seen the consumer segment make over the last decade. I just think our perspective on things differ greatly. I suppose the question I'll ask that seems to fit best right now would be; how do these DCI machines effect projectors that we normally talk about here on the forum? Or I suppose the better question is how will these advancements in commercial projectors effect what the consumer based units get in the future? I think the answer is unfortunately bleak. This was my whole point about my views coming from a purely consumer based "home theater" perspective. I just can't see these types of projectors having any bearing on what consumers, with smaller spaces and screens (less than 14' wide) will get over the next 5-10 years. I highly doubt we'll see direct laser light engines in the home theater segment as it poses a safety and legal issue. I doubt we'll see dual light engine designs (due to the high cost) in the home theater segment. I doubt we'll see HDR capable projectors with a respectable lumen output to drive a decent sized screen. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's a bit ridiculous to actually make these comparisons. You say the JVCs and consumer Sony 4K's aren't bright, but in the context of home theater (ie. less than 14' wide screens) they are. I guess context matters and depending on what the customer needs (especially when it comes to the amount of lumens needed) will ultimately decide which projector is best suited for them.

I thought I saw a Sony 4K projector with an advertised 12000:1 contrast. Or was this a post-production non-DCI compliant unit? IIRC its the Sony 615T or something like that.

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The new sony laser claims 5k lumen 120,000 on off. I made video but i find it hard to get excited or motivated to something that rates low on the Dolby Cinema =100 in the projector world. And saw easily how to hit 75% Of Dolby Cinemas ENDORPHIN PAYLOAD under 300k. And with the contrast mods reald documents been acceptable for hdr my plan is to achieve 82% of Dolby Cinema with 8 f-stops, but with a more expensive ancillary cooled unit get 10 f-stops 11K-1. This is doable, add hdmi 2.0a and now we have a ferrari f-1 at a fraction of the gold standard.

WE NEED REACH THIS LEVEL AS THE BENCHMARK, then with short throw and newly conceived projector placement variances to the traditional home cinema design... it will come down in price and into out home cinemas. At the high end.

We need such projector, the apparent high price barrier will completely evaporate to a large segment of the population once they experience this level of image quality that knocked down regular cinema projectors to at the middle of the newly established Dolby Cinema (at the top) scale.
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You're right. We need to set benchmarks first and this is where the high end units come into play. For legal reasons I don't think we'll see the same type of laser illumination trickle down to the consumer segment. Laser pumped phosphor will most likely be the trend over the next decade especially if we don't see a fundamental shift in lumen output from LEDs and higher power efficiency of the LEDs. I speak about efficiency because at peak white output each of the three Phlatlight PT120 LEDs pull 120watts of power. 360 watts of power for only 600 REC709 lumens is terrible.

I should also make it clear that I'm not solely interested in extremely high on/off contrast. I do want more than just high on/off contrast from a projector. I would be perfectly content with ~25000:1 native contrast from a DLP based unit indefinitely. On top of this on/off contrast performance, give me 650:1+ ANSI contrast, a native 4K/UHD DMD with a lens that delineates pixels very well from edge to edge, P3 color support and roughly 2000 calibrated lumens and I think I'd be in heaven. I would most likely quit posting on this forum and focus my interests elsewhere. I'm only 26 years old. I think I'll live long enough to see something like this get manufactured at some point.

Peter and Donald, I'm on vacation in Europe for the next 30 days. This is my first trip to Europe. I'll be spending a lot of time in the Netherlands, Germany, and Belgium. Are there any theaters you would recommend seeing a movie in? I'll be in Brussels, The Hague, Amsterdam, and several German cities over the next month. If you have any suggestions I'd be glad to check one or a few of them out.
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Donald the Dolby Cinema coordinates in Eindoven (should be a must see).

26 I wish we could trade you are on the right path my friend.

You are well within the Dolby Vision planned projector deployment to the home, in 10 years you will get that and more.

Have a great trip and don't over party in Amsterdam.
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I'll have to try and check out the Dolby Cinema in Eindhoven. I can't make any promises about Amsterdam.
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You could get on the train from Amsterdam and visit the Dolby Cinema in Hilversum instead, much closer by than Eindhoven. This theater will host the Dutch premiere of Inside Out on Wednesday night. Both have been refitted with the Dolby Vision projectors, received a new vibrating screen, and I believe the Alcons in the main Atmos room in Hilversum have been replaced with the Vive, as part of the Dolby Package. They are scheduled to open on Wednesday the 15th, for inside out.

Counter: https://www.jt.nl/dolbycinema

Antwerp is known for the big Kinepolis theater, host to several of the Barco innovations, like that side screen format.

I did see some large premium German theaters on youtube. But I must admit I never get out;-).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
You could get on the train from Amsterdam and visit the Dolby Cinema in Hilversum instead, much closer by than Eindhoven. This theater will host the Dutch premiere of Inside Out on Wednesday night. Both have been refitted with the Dolby Vision projectors, received a new vibrating screen, and I believe the Alcons in the main Atmos room in Hilversum have been replaced with the Vive, as part of the Dolby Package. They are scheduled to open on Wednesday the 15th, for inside out.

Counter: https://www.jt.nl/dolbycinema

Antwerp is known for the big Kinepolis theater, host to several of the Barco innovations, like that side screen format.

I did see some large premium German theaters on youtube. But I must admit I never get out;-).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXBq3SN9HaA
FYI before Christie attempted to buy Bohlender graebender (wisdom audio sister entity), they made off to Alcons, who would not sell, so the replacement is politic, a Dolby Christie vendetta, Donald where can he hear an alcons dolby atmos nearby for a ribbon speaker comparison. I think he will appreciate the huge difference. in clean sound.
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JT Eindhoven
JT Hilversum
JT Hoogeveen
JT Hoorn
JT Kerkrade
JT Vlaardingen

Are the locations by the same chain that list the 'atmos experience' among their features. The relatively large room in Kerkrade was the subject of an article floating across the various websites by DCinex and Alcons on how it required a custom ribbon mix to provide the larger throw. But the other Atmos rooms should also be Alcons, but no guarantees.
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The roadmap for colorspark does end op at around 2000 lumens, but this is at rgb mode, not the wider P3. Roadmap ends right before the expected end of exemption to RoHS on mercury lamps.
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Aside from some of the commercial 3-chip DLPs I've owned just about every "home theater" projector worth owning that's been released over the past ~10 years (list here). In your room I'd recommend checking out the Sony VPL-VW1100ES or a JVC DLA-X700. These will yield you the best overall image quality out there until these 4 or 6 DMD DLP projectors (ultra high contrast) come down to consumer levels. I'm assuming Peter would scoff at this assessment but the extremely low (in relative terms) on/off contrast of commercial DLP projectors just won't cut it in your room. High ANSI contrast, brightness, and high lens quality can only get you so far. There's really nothing quite like having a ton of on/off contrast.
If my check was correct, what stood out about this recommendation is the significant difference in price between JVC 700 and Sony 1100. Begs the question, is that JVC 700 that good?

Also JVC 700 is an e-shift 1080p model right? Is there such a thing as true 4k JVC projector coming, and is it coming out soon? (Sorry if questions are basic; I really don't follow projector news at all.)

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There still are true 4k JVC D-ILA projectors, these are a little bigger and most likely subject of this subforum, unlike the 700. These are marketed as 8K, just don't enable the e-shift. There are still 4K only models, being marketed by companies like SkySkan, but these are older JVC models, but these fit in an established design, so why change the planetarium.
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If my check was correct, what stood out about this recommendation is the significant difference in price between JVC 700 and Sony 1100. Begs the question, is that JVC 700 that good?

Also JVC 700 is an e-shift 1080p model right? Is there such a thing as true 4k JVC projector coming, and is it coming out soon? (Sorry if questions are basic; I really don't follow projector news at all.)
The X700 is that good. I'd actually argue the X500 is just as good and is THE bang-for-the-buck projector this year. Yes, it's an eshift model, but that's the last reason why I'd recommend looking into it. One of the nice things about JVC DILA projectors is that they use economies of scale to build units that would otherwise be too expensive to build individually. For instance, the lens they use is the same one that's in all three of their current home theater line up. Because they produce so many lenses they can manufacture each for less money. It's an excellent lens that is easily better than what you'd find in most of the sub $10000 projectors. I'd argue it's better than the lens in Sony's $15000 VPL-VW600ES. The JVCs is all glass and has several ED elements inside. The Sony, on the other hand, has a plastic exit element. Pixel delineation is excellent across the whole image with this lens even using a ton of zoom. In my experience (I've had over 10 different JVC units here) they are class leading when it comes to factory set convergence. All of the units I've had had less than 1/2 pixel off with one color. From a normal seating distance this is impossible to see. You also get 1000 calibrated lumens which would be enough for a 12' wide scope screen for 2D presentation. It has the best native on/off contrast of any home theater unit (~30000:1) and a very respectable dynamic iris implementation (which can also be used to set a manual position) that can give you a measured 350000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. It's weaknesses are in ANSI contrast, which is roughly 325:1 and, compared to DLP, motion performance isn't up to the same level. Though, over the past 3 years there have been noticeable improvements in this area. With 24 frames per second content, you'd be hard pressed to find it's motion performance distracting or annoying. It's "good" motion performance, reminiscent of what a good LCD flat panel looks like with motion. And depending on your room you may not even be able to get more than 325:1 ANSI contrast. With a well designed and treated room, yes, a projector with a higher ANSI contrast ratio will look a little more three-dimensional with higher APL content, but like it's motion I don't think there's a "night and day" difference between a projector with 600:1 ANSI contrast and 325:1 ANSI contrast. A noticeable difference? Sure, but nothing most people would find bad looking.

Lately there have been different contrast measurements starting to gain traction in reviews. One of them is called intra-scene contrast and I think it's a great metric we should start using. This measurement takes in a whole slew of information (including both on/off and ANSI contrast) to give you a number of what you'd see in terms of contrast with different types of APL content. You'll find that only bright content has an upper hand with higher ANSI contrast content and that with mid to low APL type content has an extreme advantage with the type of intra-scene contrast the JVC is capable of. This is what a JVC can bring to the table; better looking contrast most of the time, a very sharp looking image and is decently bright in the context of other high contrast projectors.

Here's a good intra-scene contrast calculator:

http://res18h39.bitballoon.com/intrascene

If you put in 30000:1 on/off and 325:1 ANSI in the first set of boxes and then 2500:1 and 800:1 in the second set of boxes it will show you which content favors which projector. The only two where the typical DLP projector wins at is the 'Nurse' scenerio (click on the word Nurse and you'll see a picture of that type of content) and an actual ANSI contrast test pattern image. With the rest, a JVC would look better.
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