SONY VPL-VW1200ES 4K SXRD Laser projector with 8K simulation - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 94 Old 08-09-2015, 09:11 AM
 
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Hi Wolfang!

Big difference on watching 2d in 3p and 6p. Also screen massaging helps. New NANOPERF SCREEN is solution like reald but no gain, as it is 2-4 mm thick and easy to excite gently. Not cinema screens they need lots of shakers because they are thin and lack mass all energy is lost then...

Why don't we call speckle what it is : An Interference pattern caused by the narrow band laser 1nm ?

But in 3 years anything can happen so why not get the best for now and then upgrade clusters....

In 3.5 years green laser can go from 1 to 10-20 nm. Death of speckle then. You can purchase a 6P projector with a 7 year service plan that includes the upgrade. Next generation of special purpose superkontrast screens then....

You are crazy to compare blupump to 6p or even 3p the color difference is phenomenal, blu laser is mostly cold with crazy orange/violet highights.

This is the score (being conservative):Performance as a percentage of Dolby Cinema's endorphin payload.

Dolby Vision (speckle aside) 100% score
6p laser 2d HDR 11-f-stops 80% expected score with hdmi 2.0a ( Top of line planned unit) there are lesser with 6-8 f-stops.
dual 3P imax with 8,000-1cr 75%
6p laser 2D 2,200-1 70% (wide color gamut of 6p is incredible at a fraction of $2,000,000)
3p laser 2D 2,300-1 60% (you need to switch from 6P to 3P mode for rec.2020)
xenon DLP DCI HC 6k-1 55%
blu-laser DCI 45% cannot fully hit dci.
Lcos xenon 42%
Lcos HDR Blue 40%
LED 35%



You have my number, the same one you called thinking it was Miami time but woke me up in Moscow ($225 roaming charge ).

Call me and I will inform you, regards to family!

You sholud drive to Milano to see how you can convert your 2 projectors to dual 6p 2D hdr.

It is these conversions from xenon to laser where audiences and exhibitors are going bananas over the huge image improvement of 6P 2D because of the low speckle and wide color gamut. Like 35 mm to 70mm apparent improvement with same dci file types.

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post #32 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 03:58 AM
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Hi Peter

Long timeago....

well i saweverything beside the Dolby Vision that i will see soon.
i am fine withmy Setup but always look to improve it.

fact is that my3D Setup with the 2 Barco B32 are nice and i still like it beside the bad cr.
of 1700:1.
i need a significantimprovement to at least around 8-10.000:1 otherwise a change make no sensefor me.
i not seeanything that can deliver this in the next 2 or 3 years.
same forspeckle.
yes may in someyears from now speckle will be not an issue anymore but today it wasat least for speckle sensitive people like me.
3D with thelasers with different wave lengths like you say in your mail will be notpossible at all as the 3d system works not with diffenent wafe lenghts as younot can seperate it or at least it will be much more difficult and kills morelight and much more problems will come up for sample "view angle".
i works closewith Infitec so i know.

so i don’t knowany improvements coming soon that enlarge my cr. from my 2 Barco B32 to thislevel so the only thing i can do is to go and upgrade my VW1100 to the 270.
this make sensefor me as it have 2.5 times the light my VW1100 have without any light dropcompare to a UHP lamp and a good cr. and
HDR, HFR andthe bigger Color so all what the 4K BD will offer "very soon".

i am at a smallIsland near Africa (may roaming is more expensive than yours.) but i nothave you phone number with me so please pm me it so i will call you.
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post #33 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 09:57 AM
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Are there still questions or issues around the governmental restrictions regarding laser? Are these new Sony units compliant with whatever the recent news about these regulations covered?

And yeah... 1.2 kWH? That is serious wattage. Guess a lot of people don't concern themselves about such things, but for some weird reason that bothers me more than thinking about spending $50k on a projector (realizing many of you spend more than that )
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post #34 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 10:11 AM
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According to this...


... the GTZ270 and GTZ280 are using a "Z-Phosphor" light source, which is a laser/phosphor combination, which means there are no restrictions, because the laser light doesn't hit the screen directly. More details about "Z-Phosphor" here:

http://www.ravepubs.com/infocomm-201...ys-z-phosphor/
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post #35 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 11:31 AM
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Hi Wolfgang I haven't seen the Dolby Vision Cinema yet, It was opened a few weeks ago. Public transport to Hilversum is not the best, no more direct lines, so I have to first go to Amsterdam and then to Hilversum by train. I was hoping to see it at IBC instead, preferably with a demo of the technology and tour of the installation;-). Should email them again and ask if that would be possible.

Of course it will have speckle, or scintillation, I am told this is a perception issue, hence the variation in seeing it among people, but the Dolby Vision projector is 3P from the lens, so even with a widened by a wide LASER selection in the array primary it is not as wide as with an offset primary.
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post #36 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post
In the near term, you can probably expect Laser 4K from any company to hit those numbers (probably at a minimum). If Peter's numbers are correct (wouldn't bet against his info), those are actually much more reasonable than pricing from current Laser 4K providers......but performance is a separate consideration.






Jim
The NEC is in that range. The Panasonic shifting 4K+ projector is expected to list at 57/8K Euro plus VAT when launched in November.
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post #37 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post
Hi Peter

Long timeago....

well i saweverything beside the Dolby Vision that i will see soon.
i am fine withmy Setup but always look to improve it.

fact is that my3D Setup with the 2 Barco B32 are nice and i still like it beside the bad cr.
of 1700:1.
i need a significantimprovement to at least around 8-10.000:1 otherwise a change make no sensefor me.
i not seeanything that can deliver this in the next 2 or 3 years.
same forspeckle.
yes may in someyears from now speckle will be not an issue anymore but today it wasat least for speckle sensitive people like me.
3D with thelasers with different wave lengths like you say in your mail will be notpossible at all as the 3d system works not with diffenent wafe lenghts as younot can seperate it or at least it will be much more difficult and kills morelight and much more problems will come up for sample "view angle".
i works closewith Infitec so i know.

so i don’t knowany improvements coming soon that enlarge my cr. from my 2 Barco B32 to thislevel so the only thing i can do is to go and upgrade my VW1100 to the 270.
this make sensefor me as it have 2.5 times the light my VW1100 have without any light dropcompare to a UHP lamp and a good cr. and
HDR, HFR andthe bigger Color so all what the 4K BD will offer "very soon".

i am at a smallIsland near Africa (may roaming is more expensive than yours.) but i nothave you phone number with me so please pm me it so i will call you.
Hi Wolfgang Infinitec offers glasses/filters for the different primary frequencies. But indeed this will not work with the Sony, not even if you buy two, as it is a LASER-Phosphor based lightsource, and the Infinitec system does not work with LASER-Phosphor, nor LED lightsources.

Why the 60P 270, not the 120P, 2x60P 280? Purely the shippingdate?

To enhance on-off contrast in DCi projectors requires the same type of measures as always.

Peter now has Skype, to mediate roaming charges.
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post #38 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post
The guy I spoke with indicated the 270 could easily integrate with HT, but that stated use was intentionally left out of the marketing description because of the B2B chain connected with these units. It might also be because Sony anticipates a different model for HT (1200??), but he had no specific info on an HT version.
My concern would be that it lacked some feature / capability that they knew the consumer HT market would consider critical. Maybe this gen won't necessarily support UHD Bluray, so chose not to market it as a HT projector? I don't know.

Hopefully my room will be far enough along when the PJ comes out for an in house demo. I'm planning to sit 6m from a 190" wide screen, gambling there will be a projector available that I can afford that will fill it. Wife wants to do 21' wide like Wolfgang's room, but I think it might be too big and I'll be lucky if I can afford the 270.

 

 

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post #39 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Hi Wolfgang Infinitec offers glasses/filters for the different primary frequencies. But indeed this will not work with the Sony, not even if you buy two, as it is a LASER-Phosphor based lightsource, and the Infinitec system does not work with LASER-Phosphor, nor LED lightsources.

Why the 60P 270, not the 120P, 2x60P 280? Purely the shippingdate?

To enhance on-off contrast in DCi projectors requires the same type of measures as always.

Peter now has Skype, to mediate roaming charges.

Hi Donald


Infitec and no other can do this kind of filters that can work with
laser/phosphor that is impossible.
not forget the laser phospor is a mix 2 colors green and red are made via the phosphor the blue hit direct the screen.


no the shipdate is not the issue as i had post the missing inputs to playback the 4k bd is the Problem beside the huge price difference.
the 280 will not have the right Inputs to playback 4k bd.
it is a very specially pr. for the simulations market and not match my needs.
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post #40 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 01:35 PM
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Indeed Wolfgang, I thought of that later, HDMI/HDCP/Display link on the 270. And you want the on-off this machine promisses.

But I was even more surprised to hear they have not yet found a way to make it work with RGB LED either.

Does the classic 2x2k Sony 3D solution work with white screens like yours?

Rabient size is achievable these days at limited cost, well below the 20K mark discussed here. A Panasonic 3LCD going for around 1600 euro, as suggested for an outdoorproject in the Ukrain, The $2100 BenQ Sh409. Perhaps even the BenQ HC1200 with 320 Watt bulb for around a 1000 USD. Budget light sub 5K is starting to happen, of course different quality than the big boy toys discussed here, so if it is just size, not high on-off, dynamic range, 4K, and so on you shouldn't have to worry about budget, but if you want it all...

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post #41 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 02:20 PM
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Has any material listed what the "low brightness" mode that gets 40,000 hours from the light engine outputs in lumens compared to the 5,000 in normal mode?
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post #42 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Has any material listed what the "low brightness" mode that gets 40,000 hours from the light engine outputs in lumens compared to the 5,000 in normal mode?



Not in any material that I've seen, but the Sony tech said to expect a low of 2200 - 2400 lumens, so I assume that corresponds 40K hours.








Jim
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post #43 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 10:16 PM
 
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Article-Lasers: Redefining the Premium Cinema

LINK HERE
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post #44 of 94 Old 08-10-2015, 10:30 PM
 
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Chill on the Fed Regs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Are there still questions or issues around the governmental restrictions regarding laser? Are these new Sony units compliant with whatever the recent news about these regulations covered?

And yeah... 1.2 kWH? That is serious wattage. Guess a lot of people don't concern themselves about such things, but for some weird reason that bothers me more than thinking about spending $50k on a projector (realizing many of you spend more than that )
I am pretty well versed on the status of the upcoming changes of the FDA regulations which currently are meant to prevent this:

Dozens of ravers partially blinded at Moscow party after their retinas are burned by laser light show


So out of an abundance of caution the fed regs currently take into consideration the class of laser used inside the projector to define egregious set back restrictions that would make it impossible to deploy lasers in home cinemas.

Here are some graphics of the current regulations which are based on laser radiation (assuming mostly data from collimated lasers) which dmd lcos based projectors are not.

These "the sky is falling definitions" of the Normal Ocular Hazard Distance will inevitably change next May.





This was already changed by the IEC and preparations are underway into aligning the fda logic from internal laser class type to radiance within the beam as such. That is why 6p lasers are coming to the high end after May, when the expected amendments (for the non cinema installation markets) are likely to read like this ( radiance within the cone of light):



That upcoming change of course does not prevent intelligent expert viewers to design more eye-safety friendly space arrangements (that provide you with PLF Premium large format 4k angle viewing advantages+ ergonomic positioning 1/3 ph towards this larger MINI-PLF screen) in the home, considering the upcoming age of HDR. Anyone planning a top of the line HDR MINI-PLF immersive cinema may want to consult on what the available options are.

Bottom line is 85% experience of Dolby Vision is the next benchmark in High End Home Cinema and it will be possible 2nd half of next year, start planning intelligently....
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post #45 of 94 Old 08-11-2015, 07:50 AM
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There is a huge difference between the danger of a "moving laser spot" (as in a laser light show) and a laser that is used to illuminate a DLP device for example, so I seriously doubt that there will be any issues with laser safety. If there is no way for a beam to strike someone in the eye, even if multiple systems failed.... it is an internal component.

On the speckle issue, there are many ways to virtually eliminate speckle inside the projector with simple devices, for example:

http://www.optotune.com/products/laser-speckle-reducers
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post #46 of 94 Old 08-11-2015, 07:54 AM
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Sony's current laser based projectors deliver a very small percentage of the stated lumens when calibrated, do they not? Its been a while since I looked into them. I realize they were marketed for boardroom applications. Any reason to think the new GTZ270 would deliver 4000 or more calibrated lumens against the spec of 5000?
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post #47 of 94 Old 08-11-2015, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Sony's current laser based projectors deliver a very small percentage of the stated lumens when calibrated, do they not? Its been a while since I looked into them. I realize they were marketed for boardroom applications. Any reason to think the new GTZ270 would deliver 4000 or more calibrated lumens against the spec of 5000?

We will have to wait for actual reviews with measurements, since no one can say for sure. Many lamp based projector spec's are way off the mark, or need to be qualified.
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post #48 of 94 Old 08-12-2015, 01:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Sony's current laser based projectors deliver a very small percentage of the stated lumens when calibrated, do they not? Its been a while since I looked into them. I realize they were marketed for boardroom applications. Any reason to think the new GTZ270 would deliver 4000 or more calibrated lumens against the spec of 5000?
Probably yes. By the size of their demo the image looked like d65 to me.
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post #49 of 94 Old 08-12-2015, 06:01 AM
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Great, thanks! My interest level in this projector is pretty high.
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post #50 of 94 Old 08-12-2015, 11:12 AM
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They blended two projectors, uneven illumination and not too bright in the video, so I don't expect it to be too high, but Sony never calibrates machines at tradeshows, at least not here in Europe. At ISE Sony showed the 2K lumens UST, also blended, in a darkened room, it was clear that the more brightness as primary target for next year was clearly required. But I remember when Barco showed the W6 in a stack, at ISE, small screen, wow is that 12K lumens, sure doesn't look like it;-).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=y0EqQzAtsoU

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post #51 of 94 Old 08-31-2015, 11:23 AM
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Chris made a slightly better video of the Spony's at Infocomm, h

Approximately 80% of rec.2020, and native contrast of 20K:1.
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post #52 of 94 Old 08-31-2015, 01:21 PM
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Nice, thanks! Really wanting to hear a lot more about this... hopefully < $30k consumer version...
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post #53 of 94 Old 08-31-2015, 11:40 PM
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Hope the consumer version has a nicer case...

My cinema: The Cave!
My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, JVC Z1, Lumagen Pro, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500
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post #54 of 94 Old 09-01-2015, 08:36 AM
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It has a nice case with integral stacking frame.
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post #55 of 94 Old 09-01-2015, 09:25 AM
 
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Oh!

So no wonder I was making fun of the projectors HDR capability at the show, it was not HDR content Chris clarifies.

Why launch a HDR projector with no suitable demo material?

No we have to wait and see, my problem with lcos is not being able to resolve the pixels like DLP. It leaves me gasping for air.
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It really depends on the projector you're looking at. For instance, current generation JVC's with good convergence can delineate pixels almost quite as well as some of the best single chip .95" DMD DLP units I've seen. Which would include the Samsung SP-A800B, Marantz VP-15S1, and Planar PD8150. These three units have what I would consider "over-manufactured" lenses, ie a point of diminished returns. It's astonishing how close it actually is. Sony's SXRD units don't seem to fair quite as well, though I think it comes down to their technology having more pixel fill than DLP or DiLA. The Sony VPL-VW1100ES I have here isn't too bad in terms of pixel delineation, but a not as good as the JVC and single chip DLP units I currently have here. I do think, however, the 1100ES has the best overall image quality I've seen from a strictly consumer based projector.
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post #57 of 94 Old 09-01-2015, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
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It has a nice case with integral stacking frame.
I quite like the case. Minimalist....
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post #58 of 94 Old 09-01-2015, 07:31 PM
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Peter this was not launched as an HDR projector, hence Chris his comment of 'could potentially be(come) the first HDR projector'.

I too like the case, but hey I even found the Barco BR912 possessed some rugged and functional beauty;-).
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post #59 of 94 Old 09-02-2015, 05:54 AM
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Do we expect to hear anything new about this or any Sony laser PJs at IFA?
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post #60 of 94 Old 09-02-2015, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
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Do we expect to hear anything new about this or any Sony laser PJs at IFA?

Check out their press conference today which should start in about 25mn, but I'm not sure they will introduce new PJs, and even less that the VW1200ES will be one of them if they do.


See https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post36964842
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