Sony VPL-VW5000ES 4K Laser - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I think if you look closely the contrast ratio is missing on the info tag
If you zoom in, you'll see it's marketing shooting you the bird. It's the infinity symbol. "We can shut the laser off so CR is infinity, ha ha ha".

 

 

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post #62 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
If you zoom in, you'll see it's marketing shooting you the bird. It's the infinity symbol. "We can shut the laser off so CR is infinity, ha ha ha".
Yep. My question for their marketing is, "A fairly cheap LED projector or flat panel can match your infinity:1. At $60k, what can you do for CR that they can't?"

I asked if we could disable the dynamic mode that shuts the laser off for black and was told we could. I asked what the CR would be then and I think the response was that it would be similar to the 1100.

--Darin
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post #63 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
4. There's aren't any retrofit short throws for the 1100ES - mind you can't think of that many install situs where you'd want to reduce the throw that much more than factory.
I'm in the "not many". I would like to mount the projector in the riser, shooting out to fill the front wall. This way no one catches 5,000 lumens in the face if they get up during the movie. So short throw lens is what I was looking for.

I need to correct you there, the 1100 is not 5000 lumens, the new 5000 is. The 1100 is fair amount less than 2000 calibrated.

When you say riser I'm picturing something near seating position or slightly ahead close to seating level? Depending on screen size, I can't see where this would be an issue for the 1100 anyway. Have you actually used a projector throw calculator to check this? I mean I'm using my 1100 with a throw of 14.10" on to 138" 2:35 with room to go to a 150" 2:35.
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post #64 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
I asked the Sony rep what the Native CR for the projector is and he told me that 'Sony does not want to talk about native CR'.

This projector is in my cross hairs - I will own one soon...
Tie over till the Dolby Vision projector?
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post #65 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 03:51 PM
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The VPL-GTZ 270 has 20,000:1 native on-off according to Chris Chinnock, a reputable source.
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post #66 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Tie over till the Dolby Vision projector?
I did not get that? Is there a Dolby Vision Projector coming?
Thanks.
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post #67 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
I did not get that? Is there a Dolby Vision Projector coming?
Thanks.
I'm guessing it will be a while before consumers see one, but I sure hope so. I went to the Dolby Vision theater near Dallas both Thursday and Saturday nights.

The Martian didn't really show off the blacks that well, but I thought Goosebumps did great blacks for a commercial cinema. I wish I could see Crimson Peak on one in HDR.

I'm not sure the highlights were any brighter than we get with a laser projector at the Cinerama in Seattle, but I thought the black was a fair amount better in the darker scenes with the DV system.

--Darin
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post #68 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 05:28 PM
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Darin,
There are two Dolby Vision Cinemas in Houston - one in Willowbrook Mall and the other in Deerbrook Mall.
I prefer the Deerbrook Mall as it is smaller and better calibrated.
I watched Tommorowland and Martian at the Deerbrook - Tommorowland shined at Dolby Vision and the some times the characters jumped out of the screen in the 2D presentation. Martian was OK ... not as good...
The Dolby Vision as TWO 6P Laser Projectors (5 Ton each) stacked to get the brightness...
I think with my 12 foot screen with 5000 lumen Laser projector can get close to Dolby Vision in brightness (maybe 70 FTL) - It will have HDR so I am good there...
I am getting a 28 channel ATMOS installed so that married with ES 5000 I think I can get close less annoying face booking patrons at the Deerbrook Dolby Cinema..
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post #69 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 05:29 PM
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Sorry Double Post so deleting
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post #70 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
I think with my 12 foot screen with 5000 lumen Laser projector can get close to Dolby Vision in brightness (maybe 70 FTL) - It will have HDR so I am good there...
I am getting a 28 channel ATMOS installed so that married with ES 5000 I think I can get close less annoying face booking patrons at the Deerbrook Dolby Cinema..
Well Ash, I must say for the first time I'm rather humbled by your quoted HT upgrade. To think I just built a new room to house my existing 1100, 11ft screen (soon to be 12"), and 7.2.4 ATMOS layout, then have another major upgrade in another media room that runs a smaller screen and VW500ES, but Steinway sound that's getting upgraded to ATMOS. I haven't been able to get myself into the idea of the $60k (depending on what my local Sony Commercial contacts come back with) upgrade to the 5000ES from the 1100. Hats off to you man
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post #71 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 06:03 PM
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The ATMOS Install is in full swing...
And no Hats of Sir until I actually have the 5000 ES in my Hacienda...
Many years ago I used to have a Qualia 004 and I loved the SXRD Picture as to my eyes it is 'Film Like'
My Lumis Host has served me well for last 5 years and I get 21 FTL with that currently ... the 5000 would be in a different league together..
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post #72 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I need to correct you there, the 1100 is not 5000 lumens, the new 5000 is. The 1100 is fair amount less than 2000 calibrated.
I know, I'm just making the case for the short throw lens. 5,000 lumen in my case. 2,000 for the vw1100. Less when calibrated. Regardless of the number, it's not pleasant to accidentally walk into the light beam. I would rather avoid the possibility altogether.

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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
When you say riser I'm picturing something near seating position or slightly ahead close to seating level? Depending on screen size, I can't see where this would be an issue for the 1100 anyway. Have you actually used a projector throw calculator to check this? I mean I'm using my 1100 with a throw of 14.10" on to 138" 2:35 with room to go to a 150" 2:35.
I don't have the exact numbers worked out yet. I'm basing it on my preference to sit 1.2x screen width from a 2.35:1 screen and the riser extending several feet past seating to allow room for people to take their seats. Call it the front aisle on the riser. The projector would go under the aisle.

Maybe 18' seating from a 15' wide screen, with projector 14' from the screen as an example.

 

 

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post #73 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
The Dolby Vision as TWO 6P Laser Projectors (5 Ton each) stacked to get the brightness...
I think with my 12 foot screen with 5000 lumen Laser projector can get close to Dolby Vision in brightness (maybe 70 FTL) - It will have HDR so I am good there...
The Qualia had only about 2k:1 on/off, so you will get way beyond that. However, compared to what is possible there will be room for improvement in blacks for people are really picky about dark blacks.

The Dolby Vision system has zones so that the whole screen at one time isn't limited to the native on/off CR of the projector, while the projectors we can buy are.

For instance, if the Sony has 20k:1 native on/off CR and you decide to make the HDR highlights twice the luminance as reference white then reference white to black has 10k:1 left. Twice the luminance is fairly small to human vision though. About like 70% video on 50% video. Increase the multiplier from reference white to peak white and the amount left for that reference white to black in scenes with peak HDR pixels goes down.

Overall you may end up with better images than Dolby Vision though because it looks like you could go brighter. I recall reading that they go to about 100 nits. I didn't perceive the Dallas theater as being more than that for bright scenes, although I know I can't judge white levels to nits perfectly.

--Darin
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post #74 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mry110 View Post
If anyone gets a chance, can you ask the Sony guys at CEDIA if it will be able to stretch 4k material? I sure wish they would do a software update to the 1100ES to enable this.
If you are referring to being able to use an Anamorphic lens, then yes the Sony employee I spoke with said it can use an Anamorphic lens. Since the panels are 4096x2160 you will need slightly different optics than what is used with a standard 16:9 application for anamorphic lenses.


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post #75 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 08:36 PM
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There are always the mirrors, periscope, and conversion lenses for people that need a hidden/closed off projection path. Ad that UST light rejection screen SI introduced at CEDIA...

Ash, Christie said it was developing/going to develop a smaller, lower output, version of the Dolby Vision projection technology. However they also expected this to take three years to arrive to market.

Darin for perception 100 nits is halfway to 4K, 5K, perhaps even 10K nits, so half the electronic signal for both halves should work well, that is what an HDR algorithm developer pointed out to me. All the HDR systems work with linear curve on the low end, resembling traditional gamma and a logarithmic curve on the second part. Difference lies in how they handle the transition/break.
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post #76 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Darin for perception 100 nits is halfway to 4K, 5K, perhaps even 10K nits, so half the electronic signal for both halves should work well, that is what an HDR algorithm developer pointed out to me. All the HDR systems work with linear curve on the low end, resembling traditional gamma and a logarithmic curve on the second part. Difference lies in how they handle the transition/break.
Thanks. That makes some sense to me based on electronic levels (I'll try to look up some curve data later), but I'm trying to understand how this relates to CR.

With SDR the halfway point for signals is 50% video level (ignoring above reference white for simplicity), or about 20% luminance. With a 2000:1 on/off CR projector the top half of the electronic curve gets about 5:1 of the total CR range and the bottom half of the curve gets about 400:1. Even with the bottom half getting the bulk of the range it is the half where normal human vision is likely to notice poor CR the most.

Using an extreme example to show how bad things could get, now try the same thing with 10k nits and the same 2000:1 and the top half of this curve would get 100:1 if the electronic halfway point is 100 nits. Now there is only 20:1 left for the bottom half of the electronic curve even though I think it is the part that really needs the most CR.

In such a case a person could decide how to spread the error out so that they don't crush all the shadow detail, but they would need to deviate from what the HDR EOTF calls for in order to do that. Basically, you need to rob Peter to pay Paul when there isn't enough range to get the whole curve right.

The above is much of the reason that I think high native or zone on/off CR is necessary to do HDR the way Dolby envisioned. HDR makes real on/off CR even more important than before IMO, and I thought it was already important for SDR (along with other factors that matter for great picture quality).

On the flip side I think that ANSI CR should carry even less weight for HDR than it did for SDR since average luminance levels as a percentage of the top white level should be much lower with HDR content than SDR content, since if you map both "gamma" curves from their relative 100% to 0% the HDR curve would be below the SDR curve for every point except 100 and 0.

--Darin

Last edited by darinp2; 10-19-2015 at 09:37 PM.
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post #77 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 09:41 PM
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Sorry the curve expands/tracks the light output, not the contrast ratio, thanks for pointing that out.
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post #78 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
The ATMOS Install is in full swing...
And no Hats of Sir until I actually have the 5000 ES in my Hacienda...
Many years ago I used to have a Qualia 004 and I loved the SXRD Picture as to my eyes it is 'Film Like'
My Lumis Host has served me well for last 5 years and I get 21 FTL with that currently ... the 5000 would be in a different league together..
Yeah I also had a Qualia 004 man. Although I only had it for a couple of months as they launched too late to really get the most out of before the VW100 came out, so I returned to Sony and took two VW100's. This was because I got the Qualia after spending a stack of money with Sony's commercial division for my business.

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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
I know, I'm just making the case for the short throw lens. 5,000 lumen in my case. 2,000 for the vw1100. Less when calibrated. Regardless of the number, it's not pleasant to accidentally walk into the light beam. I would rather avoid the possibility altogether.



I don't have the exact numbers worked out yet. I'm basing it on my preference to sit 1.2x screen width from a 2.35:1 screen and the riser extending several feet past seating to allow room for people to take their seats. Call it the front aisle on the riser. The projector would go under the aisle.

Maybe 18' seating from a 15' wide screen, with projector 14' from the screen as an example.
So you're in all honesty really stretching the capabilities of the 1100 for optimum picture quality. I mean 150" is regarded as the safe maximum home theater screen size for it. You know you're speccing a 180" diag image at 15' screen with right? Even with that said your min throw would still be 17.5', so actually in line with your seating distance. IHMO, you're really asking more out of the 1100 than its designed for. Would ceiling mount be totally out of the question, as that would solve your issues? I would have though in a dedicated HT with this kind of screen size demand, seating, etc, that it wouldn't be that hard to just go with ceiling mounting. I know in my own own room, no way would I consider any other option for practicality of projector positioning.

Last edited by OzHDHT; 10-19-2015 at 10:27 PM.
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post #79 of 2242 Old 10-19-2015, 10:40 PM
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Hi Alan. Sony was saying 300K:1 contrast at Cedia ( with dynamic iris etc. ). It looked to us to be similar to the VW1100 on the screen. Pretty bright on a 220" diagonal StudioTek 130 G3.
Craig does the 5000 have a dynamic iris or is it pulsing the laser.
Are you taking pre orders for this, when does it ship.
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post #80 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I mean 150" is regarded as the safe maximum home theater screen size for it.
Actually original specs showed 200". But that's kind of a silly number to even promote by Sony, as there are lots of variables involved anyway.

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post #81 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post
Craig does the 5000 have a dynamic iris or is it pulsing the laser.
Are you taking pre orders for this, when does it ship.

This says " dynamic iris " - http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/pr...specifications


We are always taking pre orders ! I'm trying to get a ship date as we " speak " !


Looks like a Feb. 2016 ship date.
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post #82 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 08:32 AM
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Craig in not seeing where it says it has a dynamic iris. I did a little more research I think it is doing the same as the Epson they are pulsing the Laser. The specs read "Dynamic Contrast"

Last edited by Alan Gouger; 10-20-2015 at 09:43 AM.
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post #83 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
So you're in all honesty really stretching the capabilities of the 1100 for optimum picture quality. I mean 150" is regarded as the safe maximum home theater screen size for it. You know you're speccing a 180" diag image at 15' screen with right? Even with that said your min throw would still be 17.5', so actually in line with your seating distance. IHMO, you're really asking more out of the 1100 than its designed for. Would ceiling mount be totally out of the question, as that would solve your issues? I would have though in a dedicated HT with this kind of screen size demand, seating, etc, that it wouldn't be that hard to just go with ceiling mounting. I know in my own own room, no way would I consider any other option for practicality of projector positioning.
Oz, I don't plan to use 1100 in my room. Its throw ratios are only relevant because the 5000 reportedly uses the same lens. I was just making a case for a short throw option, given the limitations of the 1100 / 5000 lens for what I wanted to do. Yes, I could just hang the projector over the audience, but that has its own downsides.

 

 

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post #84 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bgarcia View Post
If you are referring to being able to use an Anamorphic lens, then yes the Sony employee I spoke with said it can use an Anamorphic lens. Since the panels are 4096x2160 you will need slightly different optics than what is used with a standard 16:9 application for anamorphic lenses.
Bryan

I use my VW 1100 with the ISCO 1.25 anamorphic lens and it can do the stretch only for BDs but not for 4K content so it was still for me not clear if the new 5000 can do the stretch also for 4K content or just as the VW1100 for BDs.?

I not doubt that it can work with a anamorphic lens but question was only for 2K sourcematerial OR as well for
all 4K sourcematerial.
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post #85 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 10:44 AM
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Sony VPL-VW5000ES 4K Laser

What I was told is yes they do it for 4K content. In actuality isn't a squeeze that the lens then stretches?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by bgarcia; 10-20-2015 at 10:49 AM.
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post #86 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 11:13 AM
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What I was told is yes they do it for 4K content. In actuality isn't a squeeze that the lens then stretches?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In order to be 100% sure, this has to be corroborated from the PJ's manual, when one becomes available. The 1100ES manual clearly indicates that 4K V-Stretch will not work.
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post #87 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bgarcia View Post
What I was told is yes they do it for 4K content. In actuality isn't a squeeze that the lens then stretches?
It's a stretch. In 1080p numbers, the 1920x800 pixels of a Cinemascope movie are stretched to 1920x1080, so that the whole 16:9 projector panel is used for Cinemascope movies. That's why brightness increases and the pixel structure gets finer. If it were a squeeze, we'd lose brightness and pixel structure would get more obvious.
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post #88 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post
Craig in not seeing where it says it has a dynamic iris. I did a little more research I think it is doing the same as the Epson they are pulsing the Laser. The specs read "Dynamic Contrast"

You could be correct - I need to get that clarified.
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post #89 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post
Craig in not seeing where it says it has a dynamic iris. I did a little more research I think it is doing the same as the Epson they are pulsing the Laser. The specs read "Dynamic Contrast"
Is that good or bad?

I haven't kept up with LCoS and laser. On the NEC, the laser phosphor supposedly produced better image uniformity. That's always been a weak point for LCoS. Could we expect better uniformity out of the 5000 vs 1100?

 

 


Last edited by rabident; 10-20-2015 at 02:26 PM.
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post #90 of 2242 Old 10-20-2015, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
Actually original specs showed 200". But that's kind of a silly number to even promote by Sony, as there are lots of variables involved anyway.
Totally agree. It's the old case of on paper specs vs what is actually workable in reality.
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