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post #2161 of 2242 Old 10-12-2018, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Not sure why Tigerhonaker liked pevco’s comment? The 5000 throws plenty of light for HDR, even for my 14’ wide unity gain 2.40:1 screen. I can easily watch HDR at 78-85 on the laser. If the 5000 doesn’t throw enough light for some, imagine what they will say about the JVCs and HDR.
My screen is 15 ft wide and 6 ft tall.
I think i'm using close to 100 percent laser.
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post #2162 of 2242 Old 10-12-2018, 09:13 AM
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I am very happy with my Sony 5000ES and its performance. How ever I'm not purchasing any more 4K Discs.
I have a Oppo 203 4K Blu-ray DVD player, which plays out standing up scale Blu-ray, but the Sony 5000ES does not project Dolby Vision Discs in that mode.
The picture image is just to dark for me.
I'm currently getting 444 12 bit picture, but no Dolby Vision. I get a great up scale Blu-ray picture, that I'm very happy with.
So, I have decided not to purchase any more 4K versions of a movie.
I've spoken with Sony Tech Support on this however, they have told me that Sony will not have firmware for the Dolby Vision image. Really to bad.
4K....Done !
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Not sure why Tigerhonaker liked pevco’s comment? The 5000 throws plenty of light for HDR, even for my 14’ wide unity gain 2.40:1 screen. I can easily watch HDR at 78-85 on the laser. If the 5000 doesn’t throw enough light for some, imagine what they will say about the JVCs and HDR.

I personally think the guy is right when it comes to (Some) pictures/movies in the HDR.
I have what some on this site think is a small screen at 123" 16x9 which actually surprised me and actually still does.
Anyway I can see even on my screen in a dedicated HT with No-External-Light coming in at all.
According to what one is watching to me some of it is Darker than I'd personally like it to be.
And when I saw what pevco posted and he has the Brighter ES5000 Sony I knew then it might not just be me with the RS4500.
Also being retired I have the time to research any given subject and have recently been reading a lot on the UHD/HDR/HD.
Maybe all three of those are the same or close to the same I really don't know ^^^.
I do know that when speaking of projectors watching 4K movies or streaming 4K movies a heck of a lot of people comment on how Dark some of it is.
Seems as I type this they were saying that as time passes maybe the Film Industry will get their game-plan ironed out to where the HDR content is Brighter in the overly Dark scenes.
Where you can see more of what's going on than you can in some cases currently.
And guys I'm not one of the members on here that get into the silly Sony versus JVC {Camps}.
I love HT and could care less which manufacturers projector someone has that to me is just ridiculous.
I only mention the above ^^^ so everyone on this Sony ES5000 thread realizes I'm talking about what the poster was saying and really nothing at all on specific manufacturers projectors.
I know in my case I have already made an appointment with Chad B. to do the Custom Calibration on mine and when he does I am going to make sure I don't forget the following.
Chad, I want the HDR if possible to show more content in the Overly Black Scenes if at all possible.
And since these projectors can store settings for viewing different content then Chad can also set it up different for SDR content versus HD or HDR or UHD.


If you guys check around you will also see what I have about the 4K HDR movies when it comes to the Ultra-Dark-Scenes.
Personally in my case and I'm pretty sure Chad is going to bring it to my attention that if he calibrates it to Lighten-Up those Dark Scenes I will also be giving up some of the Black-Level.
I'm willing to give up some of the Black-Level for more detail in the Super-Black-Scenes.


I hope that as time passes we can all discuss picture overall quality and get past the silly Sony versus JVC crap.


Terry
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Last edited by tigerhonaker; 10-12-2018 at 09:28 AM.
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post #2163 of 2242 Old 10-12-2018, 09:39 AM
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As I understand it, the new Panasonic UB820 (and I think UB420) will take into account the HDR mastering levels of a UHD disk automatically and tone map them accordingly, so you shouldn't get any dark issues any more and no need for custom curves. Plus there is also a slider in the menu to adjust the level if necessary - there are a lot of people that are saying its the best thing so far in that respect.

If you don't want HDR, you may be able to disable that aspect and keep the UHD resolution and Wide Colour Gamut element of the UHD disk though I'm not sure how it can be done with the Sony 5000, but an HDFury Linker allows that with non HDR capable displays, so that may be a way of getting round the HDR side without losing UHD and WCG if you really don;t want HDR.

I think the Panasonic UB820 would be the easiest way to go though.

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post #2164 of 2242 Old 10-12-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
And guys I'm not one of the members on here that get into the silly Sony versus JVC {Camps}...
I love HT and could care less which manufacturers projector someone has that to me is just ridiculous...
I only mention the above ^^^ so everyone on this Sony ES5000 thread realizes I'm talking about...
I hope that as time passes we can all discuss picture overall quality and get past the silly Sony versus JVC crap.
Terry
Terry ... looks like you went off on a frolic here, but you seem to be doing that a lot these days, with other members and now me. Even challenging the character of some publicly that don’t deserve it.

When is the last time you saw me make a comment in the JVC threads or playing the “Sony vs JVC game”? When someone speaks innacurately about Sony or bashes the company relentlessly, I do speak up though, but that is pretty rare. I am not implying you are a Sony basher, just justifying a comment or two that I have made in the past. You liked a post that Pevco made (no offense to him at all), but his set up is not a best case scenario. You liked his post unconditionally, despite not even knowing his screen size or gain or room conditions on a 5000 lumens projector you don’t own, but wanted to own. I did the logical thing and gave good advice to Pevco (as Gary did) and mentioned the Lumagen/Panasonic 4K players and inquired about his screen size. It turns out that it is a huge screen (15’ wide x 6’ high). To make matters worse he is running in HDR rec 2020 mode on an Oppo 203 (which I own), which in addition to the huge screen size WILL produce a dark image no matter what 4K movie you watch. So, what were you actually liking (at the time you hit the like button)? You were in reality liking a post that did not have near enough info to draw any conclusion at all, but you liked it anyway. So what should I draw from that?

Your digs/comments to me were inappropriate. You really need to chill a bit and be more respectful of members, and not imply that I’m playing a “silly/ridiculous” game, or spewing “crap”. I was just giving good advice.

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post #2165 of 2242 Old 10-12-2018, 02:59 PM
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I don't know the gain of Pevcos' screen, but if it's 15 x 6 (2.5:1 ratio) then he could be getting around 48fL if it's a unity gain screen with 4500 lumens (is that right for the 5000 calibrated in mode 2?), so HDR should be relatively doable shouldn't it if the gamma curve is optimised for the SDR range?

If like a lot of projectors the HDR isn't set up right, then it can seem pretty dark a lot of the time, so perhaps that's what's happening in his case. A UB820 should fix the dark problem and make HDR more watchable I would have thought. I think a Dolby Vision disk also has an HD10 layer, so I think a pj will get the source output default to that and the 5000 should be able to display it without a problem if the player tone maps correctly.

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post #2166 of 2242 Old 10-12-2018, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Terry ... looks like you went off on a frolic here, but you seem to be doing that a lot these days, with other members and now me. Even challenging the character of some publicly that don’t deserve it.

When is the last time you saw me make a comment in the JVC threads or playing the “Sony vs JVC game”? When someone speaks innacurately about Sony or bashes the company relentlessly, I do speak up though, but that is pretty rare. I am not implying you are a Sony basher, just justifying a comment or two that I have made in the past. You liked a post that Pevco made (no offense to him at all), but his set up is not a best case scenario. You liked his post unconditionally, despite not even knowing his screen size or gain or room conditions on a 5000 lumens projector you don’t own, but wanted to own. I did the logical thing and gave good advice to Pevco (as Gary did) and mentioned the Lumagen/Panasonic 4K players and inquired about his screen size. It turns out that it is a huge screen (15’ wide x 6’ high). To make matters worse he is running in HDR rec 2020 mode on an Oppo 203 (which I own), which in addition to the huge screen size WILL produce a dark image no matter what 4K movie you watch. So, what were you actually liking (at the time you hit the like button)? You were in reality liking a post that did not have near enough info to draw any conclusion at all, but you liked it anyway. So what should I draw from that?

Your digs/comments to me were inappropriate. You really need to chill a bit and be more respectful of members, and not imply that I’m playing a “silly/ridiculous” game, or spewing “crap”. I was just giving good advice.
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Not sure why Tigerhonaker liked pevco’s comment? The 5000 throws plenty of light for HDR, even for my 14’ wide unity gain 2.40:1 screen. I can easily watch HDR at 78-85 on the laser. If the 5000 doesn’t throw enough light for some, imagine what they will say about the JVCs and HDR.
I simply said what I did in answering you on why you wondered why I clicked on the Like BTN on that post about 4K and him not liking what he was seeing.
Of course none of us at the time knew the size of his screen.
I was and still agreeing that from what I have read and I have seen to me some of the really Black scenes I think could be Brighter.
And I'm not the only person thinking that as the film producers get further along that they will be improving those Deep-Blacks on certain scenes.

I in No-Way attacked you nor said anything at all to you in a Negative manner.
You asked why I clicked like and I tried my best to answer you and nothing more.
And as far as Sony versus JVC Camps I still think those that are into that sort of thing should chill and just talk about what they see and drop all the Belittling from both camps to one another.
To me it serves no purpose but to members like myself wondering if they should not comment as anything they post is going to be instantly picked apart.
Now that I have personally seen for myself how this is going to go I'll reframe from further posting on this Sony ES5000 dedicated thread.


Terry
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post #2167 of 2242 Old 10-13-2018, 07:22 PM
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Not sure what your screen size and gain are, but add a Lumagen or one of the Panasonic UHD players (with Dynamic Contrast Slider and HDR Optimizer) and you will be far from done with 4k movies. On my 203, HDR is too dark, but not so on my Panasonic 900. Unless your screen is huge 15’-16’ wide, there are work arounds...
Interesting! I have the 5000 with a 13.5-ft ST100 screen w/the Lumagen Pro and the Panny 900 as well as Oppo-203, system's calibrated of course. Never once did I feel the need to do an A-B comparison between the Oppo-203 & Panny 900. Now, the calibrator said the Oppo has an edge over the Panny back in March 2018 when the calibration was done. I guess I'll wait to see what new Panny-820 owners have to say with this particular system.
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post #2168 of 2242 Old 10-14-2018, 03:56 AM
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Interesting! I have the 5000 with a 13.5-ft ST100 screen w/the Lumagen Pro and the Panny 900 as well as Oppo-203, system's calibrated of course. Never once did I feel the need to do an A-B comparison between the Oppo-203 & Panny 900. Now, the calibrator said the Oppo has an edge over the Panny back in March 2018 when the calibration was done. I guess I'll wait to see what new Panny-820 owners have to say with this particular system.
You have a Lumagen in the chain, so you should be fine with either player.
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post #2169 of 2242 Old 10-16-2018, 03:12 AM
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What does the Lumagen Pro do for projection ?
And what model ?
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post #2170 of 2242 Old 01-03-2019, 03:28 AM
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4K Blu-Ray with HDR10+ ? Sony 5000ES

Are there any 4K Blu-ray DVD that are offering the new HDR10+ feature.
I have a Sony 5000ES projector that does not project Dolby Vision but will project HDR10+.
What is the difference between DV and HDR10+ ?
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post #2171 of 2242 Old 01-03-2019, 08:44 AM
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The Sony 5000ES does not do HDR10+, no projector supports this feature (and barely any flat panels do either). The 5000ES supports HDR10 only.

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post #2172 of 2242 Old 01-03-2019, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pevco View Post
Are there any 4K Blu-ray DVD that are offering the new HDR10+ feature.
I have a Sony 5000ES projector that does not project Dolby Vision but will project HDR10+.
What is the difference between DV and HDR10+ ?
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The Sony 5000ES does not do HDR10+, no projector supports this feature (and barely any flat panels do either). The 5000ES supports HDR10 only.
Kris is correct. Here's an official Sony statement on this topic:

"Sony projectors analyze the 4K video in real time and adjust the tone mapping on a scene by scene basis. This provides a result on screen that most closely represents the creator's intent based on years of experience producing movies as well as making the professional equipment used to produce movies. There is currently no Dolby Vision or HDR10+ specification for projectors."

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post #2173 of 2242 Old 01-03-2019, 10:08 AM
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Sony projectors do not do any scene by scene analysis or tone mapping. In fact they ignore the metadata all together and rely on the user to set the tone map clip point via the HDR contrast control. They use a fixed PQ multiplier for this.
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post #2174 of 2242 Old 01-03-2019, 10:11 AM
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Kris is correct. Here's an official Sony statement on this topic:

"Sony projectors analyze the 4K video in real time and adjust the tone mapping on a scene by scene basis. This provides a result on screen that most closely represents the creator's intent based on years of experience producing movies as well as making the professional equipment used to produce movies. There is currently no Dolby Vision or HDR10+ specification for projectors."
Where did this statement come from, Sony projectors most certainly do not do this.
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post #2175 of 2242 Old 01-03-2019, 10:35 AM
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Where did this statement come from, Sony projectors most certainly do not do this.
From somebodies dream, since in many ways having a projector be able to do this would be a dream come true.
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post #2176 of 2242 Old 01-03-2019, 11:29 AM
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From somebodies dream, since in many ways having a projector be able to do this would be a dream come true.
If it did it correctly, it sure would be a dream come true.
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post #2177 of 2242 Old 01-03-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by pevco View Post
Are there any 4K Blu-ray DVD that are offering the new HDR10+ feature.
I have a Sony 5000ES projector that does not project Dolby Vision but will project HDR10+.
What is the difference between DV and HDR10+ ?
I made a mistake. , The Sony 5000ES will show HDR10, NOT 10+.
I spoke with a Sony tech this morning to get this figured out.
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post #2178 of 2242 Old 01-04-2019, 08:53 AM
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Sony projectors do not do any scene by scene analysis or tone mapping. In fact they ignore the metadata all together and rely on the user to set the tone map clip point via the HDR contrast control. They use a fixed PQ multiplier for this.
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the X1 HDR chip and X1 Extreme HDR chip do an object based remaster on everything shown? That would HAVE to be done on a frame by frame basis wouldn't it?

From the UK website:
With Object-based HDR remaster (1), the colour in individual objects on screen is analysed and the contrast adjusted, unlike most TVs where contrast is only adjusted along one black to white contrast curve (2). Because objects are remastered individually, this TV can reproduce greater depth, textures and more real pictures.

As an object could be in one frame but not another, then it would HAVE to be in real time. And as it is optimising contrast and colour, then even though it is ignoring the metadata on the source, it is still performing scene by scene analysis of the content.

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They are not doing any frame by frame tone mapping or any other HDR processing. I've sat down with their engineers and gone over this ad nauseam at CEDIA and via emails since. They are applying a fixed PQ curve that is set to an unknown assumed brightness (they won't tell me what it is). The HDR Contrast control changes what the clipping point is. The HDR Reference mode in the 995 also changes the tone map slightly, but you still have to adjust the HDR contrast control to properly clip (they say HDR Reference is setup ideally for 1000 nit titles, but its default contrast setting clips well before 1000).

I've asked them specifically if they do optimization like in the flat panel segment and they said no. I asked if they pay attention at all to the metadata and they said no.
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post #2180 of 2242 Old 01-04-2019, 09:47 AM
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I've asked them specifically if they do optimization like in the flat panel segment and they said no. I asked if they pay attention at all to the metadata and they said no.
Takes the onus off them quite a bit then doesn't it!

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post #2181 of 2242 Old 01-04-2019, 09:54 AM
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I honestly don't think the two groups talk much to each other. It would be great if the projection line was kept up with the flat panel line for features and processing, but that isn't the case. Remember all the talk about the 885 being upgradable to DV simply because it has the same chip as their older flat panels?

The tone mapping on the 995 is actually quite good for a projector. Its drawback is the fixed multiplier, that applies to the whole curve. They need to leave the first 100 nits alone, this would fix the "dark" issue. BT2390 shows the exact same thing, leave the standard range of video alone and tone map the area above (and below if necessary). The drawbacks are quite easy to demonstrate with some titles, but a lot of titles look just fine. If you've never seen better tone mapping with projection, it would be really easy to just say it looks great because you have no reference. I think a lot of people fall into that trap.

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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
They are not doing any frame by frame tone mapping or any other HDR processing. I've sat down with their engineers and gone over this ad nauseam at CEDIA and via emails since. They are applying a fixed PQ curve that is set to an unknown assumed brightness (they won't tell me what it is). The HDR Contrast control changes what the clipping point is. The HDR Reference mode in the 995 also changes the tone map slightly, but you still have to adjust the HDR contrast control to properly clip (they say HDR Reference is setup ideally for 1000 nit titles, but its default contrast setting clips well before 1000).

I've asked them specifically if they do optimization like in the flat panel segment and they said no. I asked if they pay attention at all to the metadata and they said no.
I'm specifically forwarding this post to Sony to get a "yep Kris did all that and he's right" or a "well, actually no here's the deal" out of them. OK? I know you feel it's settled and you did the legwork but since I got that statement from Sony yesterday it's obviously not fully settled.

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post #2183 of 2242 Old 01-04-2019, 10:31 AM
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I'm specifically forwarding this post to Sony to get a "yep Kris did all that and he's right" or a "well, actually no here's the deal" out of them. OK? I know you feel it's settled and you did the legwork but since I got that statement from Sony yesterday it's obviously not fully settled.
Sure. If I remember correctly you sat right next to me at the Sony conference when I asked them all these things specifically and they talked about their fixed tone map. What was the statement you got from Sony specifically?

I have emails that address all these comments specifically, but I typically don't share emails.

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post #2184 of 2242 Old 01-04-2019, 10:33 AM
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Sure. If I remember correctly you sat right next to me at the Sony conference when I asked them all these things specifically and they talked about their fixed tone map. What was the statement you got from Sony specifically?

I have emails that address all these comments specifically, but I typically don't share emails.
It was: "Sony projectors analyze the 4K video in real time and adjust the tone mapping on a scene by scene basis. This provides a result on screen that most closely represents the creator's intent based on years of experience producing movies as well as making the professional equipment used to produce movies. There is currently no Dolby Vision or HDR10+ specification for projectors."
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post #2185 of 2242 Old 01-04-2019, 10:54 AM
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I know that they setup their tone map based on side by side comparisons with their BVM, but I've seen nothing about frame by frame, I see no results that would back that up, and I've asked them if they do anything dynamically and they've said no. Frame by frame would be really easy to test for with test patterns and I've never seen a single change, even with dynamic metadata. So not sure where that is coming from??
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post #2186 of 2242 Old 01-04-2019, 11:06 AM
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I know that they setup their tone map based on side by side comparisons with their BVM, but I've seen nothing about frame by frame, I see no results that would back that up, and I've asked them if they do anything dynamically and they've said no. Frame by frame would be really easy to test for with test patterns and I've never seen a single change, even with dynamic metadata. So not sure where that is coming from??
Well, Sony's point in sending me an "official" statement was to quash any notion that the projector supports HDR10+ or any other HDR that has dynamic metadata. The rest of the comment is what's in conflict with what you've gleaned. I certainly know you are thorough in your questioning and seek clarity, so despite CES prep being my priority, I'm happy to push this to a resolution where all the facts align.
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post #2187 of 2242 Old 01-04-2019, 11:10 AM
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Well, Sony's point in sending me an "official" statement was to quash any notion that the projector supports HDR10+ or any other HDR that has dynamic metadata. The rest of the comment is what's in conflict with what you've gleaned. I certainly know you are thorough in your questioning and seek clarity, so despite CES prep being my priority, I'm happy to push this to a resolution where all the facts align.
Thanks Mark. Will be interesting to see what they say about this "officially" because if that is their official stance it does seem to go against what I've been told in both emails, in person and from my evaluations. I would LOVE for projectors to start doing frame by frame tone mapping like flat panels, but so far tone mapping in general has been pretty basic.
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Any update from Sony on the ‘real time processing’ contention yet?

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Isn't the Lumagen Pro supposed to be doing this very soon ?

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Isn't the Lumagen Pro supposed to be doing this very soon ?

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That wasn't what I was referring to , but yes, I believe it is.
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