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post #2191 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Any update from Sony on the ‘real time processing’ contention yet?
I'm sure the Sony guys are busy with CES. I have other emails to what I'm sure are the same guys at Sony that Mark sent for other things and haven't heard back in awhile. Hard to get hold of CE contacts during a big show.

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post #2192 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Any update from Sony on the ‘real time processing’ contention yet?
Yes.

"On a scene by scene (could be as short as a frame) basis, the projector analyzes the content and adjusts the luminance/iris/laser to provide the best possible image on the screen. To the extent that this changes the bottom black level or peak brightness level at that moment, the colors are remapped so as to remain “correct”"

"We apply the industry standard 2084 PQ curve – any ‘other curve’ would be changing the colorimetry from that authored by the content creator."

"Regarding “pay attention to all the metadata”, in the HDR10 standard, there are only two pieces of metadata which are often set incorrectly in a given piece of content. While other manufacturers have begun to use those data to set parameters within their projector, Sony analyzes the content and determines dynamically (to the original point of scene by scene tone mapping) the peak brightness and average brightness of that scene and tone maps the image based on the actual content."
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post #2193 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I'm sure the Sony guys are busy with CES. I have other emails to what I'm sure are the same guys at Sony that Mark sent for other things and haven't heard back in awhile. Hard to get hold of CE contacts during a big show.
CES is crazy. Reply posted above...
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post #2194 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 02:03 PM
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Yes.

"On a scene by scene (could be as short as a frame) basis, the projector analyzes the content and adjusts the luminance/iris/laser to provide the best possible image on the screen. To the extent that this changes the bottom black level or peak brightness level at that moment, the colors are remapped so as to remain “correct”"

"We apply the industry standard 2084 PQ curve – any ‘other curve’ would be changing the colorimetry from that authored by the content creator."

"Regarding “pay attention to all the metadata”, in the HDR10 standard, there are only two pieces of metadata which are often set incorrectly in a given piece of content. While other manufacturers have begun to use those data to set parameters within their projector, Sony analyzes the content and determines dynamically (to the original point of scene by scene tone mapping) the peak brightness and average brightness of that scene and tone maps the image based on the actual content."
So this corroborates what I had read somewhere in the past.

That is good to hear as the picture quality bears it out as a general rule.

Duff metadata on discs is fairly common as is evidenced by checking the playback info on my Panny, which often reveals no metadata at all on a disc. Not to mention erroneous metadata on some Apple TV titles.

Analysing the image on the fly is better than reading data that may be inaccurate.

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post #2195 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes.

"On a scene by scene (could be as short as a frame) basis, the projector analyzes the content and adjusts the luminance/iris/laser to provide the best possible image on the screen. To the extent that this changes the bottom black level or peak brightness level at that moment, the colors are remapped so as to remain “correct”"

"We apply the industry standard 2084 PQ curve – any ‘other curve’ would be changing the colorimetry from that authored by the content creator."

"Regarding “pay attention to all the metadata”, in the HDR10 standard, there are only two pieces of metadata which are often set incorrectly in a given piece of content. While other manufacturers have begun to use those data to set parameters within their projector, Sony analyzes the content and determines dynamically (to the original point of scene by scene tone mapping) the peak brightness and average brightness of that scene and tone maps the image based on the actual content."
Couple things wrong with this feedback. The first paragraph is talking about the dynamic dimming. If it was talking about something else, it would extremely easy to see adjustments in the luminance levels.

The second paragraph is misleading. There is no way you can follow PQ with a projector. If you followed PQ perfectly, you would clip. You have to have a point where you have your rolloff and you'd want to adjust that either shallow or extreme depending on how much signal there is (is the max 200 nits, 1000 nits, 4000 nits?). That would determine how much rolloff you need. You don't want to touch the first 100 nits, which is where the bulk of the information lies. But at the same time you want to have the ability to adjust the tone map so that you can compensate for the environment or viewing preference. Think of this as dynamic range control on a stereo. True high dynamic range audio is hard to listen to unless you are in a perfect environment. Try listening to a high dynamic range classical recording in a car on the freeway. You turn it WAY up for the quiet parts and then get blasted by the loud parts. If you follow PQ perfectly you HAVE to compromise the bottom to get the top, you only have so much range to work with. If you follow a perfect balance, it has to push the bottom DOWN, which makes most of the portion of video you watch DARKER. Sony doesn't allow you any control to change that balance so some titles will be too dark. This becomes more of a problem if the room has any ambient light to compete against or you end up with a screen that is big enough that total light output becomes an issue.

The third paragraph is also, in my opinion, false. Otherwise if you put up any ramp pattern with digital data, you would never see clipping at different contrast settings, because it would change the tone map to not clip. Even the opening sequence of "The Meg" will show you that they are not doing scene by scene tone mapping or they would NEVER clip. But you have to adjust Contrast HDR on a title by title basis or else you clearly get issues not only with image brightness, but also clipping. This barely takes any time with the projector and content to prove false, so I'm not sure why they would say it in the first place?? If they were truly doing any type of frame by frame tone mapping, you'd never have to adjust anything for any title at all, but it is blatantly obvious with such a minor amount of testing that this is far from the case??

The only thing Sony is doing dynamically is the laser dimming, and even this only applies to the first 3% of the image at most (from black to 3% APL). From there on it isn't doing anything at all.

At some point I'd like to have a sit down WITH a projector and content with their engineers. I am not sure if their marketing guys are just being mislead, or worse don't know, but to demonstrate these things is fairly simple in a room with the projector and content.
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post #2196 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
So this corroborates what I had read somewhere in the past.

That is good to hear as the picture quality bears it out as a general rule.

Duff metadata on discs is fairly common as is evidenced by checking the playback info on my Panny, which often reveals no metadata at all on a disc. Not to mention erroneous metadata on some Apple TV titles.

Analysing the image on the fly is better than reading data that may be inaccurate.
How in the world do you thing the picture quality bears this out?? Again, if they were doing ANY of the things that their guys are saying here, it would be REALLY simple to prove. You'd see not only adjustments in darker images, but you should never see clipping at all. With super bright images you'd see the balance of the image change as it went from bright to dark, yet it doesn't at all. There is absolutely NOTHING substantiating these claims when you actually test it with images, test patterns or anything else. You only have a marketing guy saying something. The same ones that say that the "Digital Focus Optimizer" only applies to certain parts of the image depending on the lens shift. But you turn it on and adjust the lens shift fully in all directions and you can clearly see that processing is being done the same in ALL PARTS of the image.

I'm waiting to hear back from the Sony guys on this as well. As soon as Mark said he would email them I emailed them as well, just to make sure to clarify what I've already received prior to this via email compared to what the "marketing" is saying. I haven't heard back yet. It is REALLY simple to put out a statement saying our tech does this, you see it with products ALL THE TIME, but it is also easy to test these things and see that it is far from the case. EVERY brand does this with nearly every product.

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post #2197 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
How in the world do you thing the picture quality bears this out?? Again, if they were doing ANY of the things that their guys are saying here, it would be REALLY simple to prove. You'd see not only adjustments in darker images, but you should never see clipping at all. With super bright images you'd see the balance of the image change as it went from bright to dark, yet it doesn't at all. There is absolutely NOTHING substantiating these claims when you actually test it with images, test patterns or anything else. You only have a marketing guy saying something. The same ones that say that the "Digital Focus Optimizer" only applies to certain parts of the image depending on the lens shift. But you turn it on and adjust the lens shift fully in all directions and you can clearly see that processing is being done the same in ALL PARTS of the image.

I'm waiting to hear back from the Sony guys on this as well. As soon as Mark said he would email them I emailed them as well, just to make sure to clarify what I've already received prior to this via email compared to what the "marketing" is saying. I haven't heard back yet. It is REALLY simple to put out a statement saying our tech does this, you see it with products ALL THE TIME, but it is also easy to test these things and see that it is far from the case. EVERY brand does this with nearly every product.
Because of what I see most of the time with my eyes.

The marketing thing is a given and we would love to know exactly what is true and what isn't.

As for the rest of your post, it comes across as more than a little shouty.....
Nothing going on here that requires raised temperatures buddy. Just trying to get to the truth.

I read something similar in the past, but verification of where the info comes from would help. It was quite specific for a marketing bod.....

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post #2198 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 02:40 PM
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Not shouty, more confused. I just sent this same quote that Mark got to Ekki to get his thoughts since he has a 995 for evaluation. I can't find ANYTHING to back up anything they are claiming here when it comes to actual evaluation and I've tested about every "dynamic" tone mapping solution on the market today other than MadVR. Hell, I've spent the last year or so working on it with Lumagen. Again, it is REALLY easy to test for dynamic tone mapping, and nothing the Sony is doing passes that test at all.
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post #2199 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 02:47 PM
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Not shouty, more confused. I just sent this same quote that Mark got to Ekki to get his thoughts since he has a 995 for evaluation. I can't find ANYTHING to back up anything they are claiming here when it comes to actual evaluation and I've tested about every "dynamic" tone mapping solution on the market today other than MadVR. Hell, I've spent the last year or so working on it with Lumagen. Again, it is REALLY easy to test for dynamic tone mapping, and nothing the Sony is doing passes that test at all.
So are their marketing bods so confident in their positions that they think they can peddle what may be outright lies and get away with it?

They are bound to use the 'open to interpretation' card which they often do when faced with the actual truth.

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post #2200 of 2242 Old 01-11-2019, 02:55 PM
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Saying they are lying is a bit much. I don't think they are trying to outright lie, they may just be passing on information they've been told by someone else, or misinterpreting. Again, this is REALLY easy to test and it doesn't bear out. You have a 885ES, do you have the movie The Meg? If so, just leave your Contrast setting the same as always (what setting do you use?) and watch the movie. It is easy to see clipping early on, and you'll see later that the image is probably all blown out when they are in the boat on the surface. If they were doing even parts of what they are saying, this would not be the case at all. If they are doing this all dynamic, there wouldn't be any reason at all to even have the Contrast setting for HDR, let alone the HDR10 vs HDR Reference modes. The tone map would be dynamically mapping to the content in real time so what is there to adjust?
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post #2201 of 2242 Old 01-12-2019, 02:58 AM
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HDR and HDR10 ?

I have a Sony 5000ES and a Oppo 203, going through a Yamaha 2070, with certified cables.
Is any body getting a HDR10 picture on there screen via UHD 4K Blu-ray disc?
if so, what are your settings in the Sony menu? What indicates that your getting HDR10 on the screen?
I believe I have most settings set at auto.

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post #2202 of 2242 Old 01-12-2019, 05:04 AM
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I have a Sony 5000ES and a Oppo 203, going through a Yamaha 2070, with certified cables.
Is any body getting a HDR10 picture on there screen via UHD 4K Blu-ray disc?
if so, what are your settings in the Sony menu? What indicates that your getting HDR10 on the screen?
I believe I have most settings set at auto.
A long press of the "i" button on the Oppo remote will put up a scrollable screen that shows the incoming and outgoing info.


The info screen of the Sony menu items will show you the signal info it is seeing for incoming.
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post #2203 of 2242 Old 01-12-2019, 08:47 AM
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I have a Sony 5000ES and a Oppo 203, going through a Yamaha 2070, with certified cables.
Is any body getting a HDR10 picture on there screen via UHD 4K Blu-ray disc?
if so, what are your settings in the Sony menu? What indicates that your getting HDR10 on the screen?
I believe I have most settings set at auto.
The easiest way to know you are getting HDR to a Sony is just bring up the picture settings menu and you'll see that the Contrast setting has changed to Contrast HDR. On the advanced page it will also say either HDR10 or HDR Reference, depending on how you have it set (should be in Auto with an SDR source).

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post #2204 of 2242 Old 01-12-2019, 09:45 AM
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Saying they are lying is a bit much. I don't think they are trying to outright lie, they may just be passing on information they've been told by someone else, or misinterpreting. Again, this is REALLY easy to test and it doesn't bear out. You have a 885ES, do you have the movie The Meg? If so, just leave your Contrast setting the same as always (what setting do you use?) and watch the movie. It is easy to see clipping early on, and you'll see later that the image is probably all blown out when they are in the boat on the surface. If they were doing even parts of what they are saying, this would not be the case at all. If they are doing this all dynamic, there wouldn't be any reason at all to even have the Contrast setting for HDR, let alone the HDR10 vs HDR Reference modes. The tone map would be dynamically mapping to the content in real time so what is there to adjust?
Saying it 'real time tone maps' when it doesn't? = A lie. Doesn't matter who says it or where it comes from, if it is not true, it is a lie.

Someone somewhere is saying and spreading downright untruths.

If it is the Dynamic contrast and dimming they are on about, then they should say that and not use 'tone mapping'.

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post #2205 of 2242 Old 01-12-2019, 02:17 PM
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Did some more testing on this all this morning. Definitely NOT doing real time tone mapping. I also had some input from Ekki on what he thought they may be confusing their tone mapping with, which he thought they may mean the Contrast Enhancer function. But even this is not dynamic, it acts the same regardless of the input signal. The only thing I can actually test that proves to be dynamic is the laser dimming.

The Meg is a perfect disc for testing all of this out. If there was even a trace of dynamic functionality to the tone mapping, the playback of this title would be drastically different than it is. So I'm not sure what they are going on about, but the Sony's are definitely static tone maps that can be manipulated by changing the contrast (adjusts the tone map and the clipping point, more so the latter) and Contrast Enhancer, which not only changes the clipping point for black and white, but manipulates the gamma as well.

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post #2206 of 2242 Old 01-15-2019, 03:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Couple things wrong with this feedback. The first paragraph is talking about the dynamic dimming. If it was talking about something else, it would extremely easy to see adjustments in the luminance levels.



The second paragraph is misleading. There is no way you can follow PQ with a projector. If you followed PQ perfectly, you would clip. You have to have a point where you have your rolloff and you'd want to adjust that either shallow or extreme depending on how much signal there is (is the max 200 nits, 1000 nits, 4000 nits?). That would determine how much rolloff you need. You don't want to touch the first 100 nits, which is where the bulk of the information lies. But at the same time you want to have the ability to adjust the tone map so that you can compensate for the environment or viewing preference. Think of this as dynamic range control on a stereo. True high dynamic range audio is hard to listen to unless you are in a perfect environment. Try listening to a high dynamic range classical recording in a car on the freeway. You turn it WAY up for the quiet parts and then get blasted by the loud parts. If you follow PQ perfectly you HAVE to compromise the bottom to get the top, you only have so much range to work with. If you follow a perfect balance, it has to push the bottom DOWN, which makes most of the portion of video you watch DARKER. Sony doesn't allow you any control to change that balance so some titles will be too dark. This becomes more of a problem if the room has any ambient light to compete against or you end up with a screen that is big enough that total light output becomes an issue.



The third paragraph is also, in my opinion, false. Otherwise if you put up any ramp pattern with digital data, you would never see clipping at different contrast settings, because it would change the tone map to not clip. Even the opening sequence of "The Meg" will show you that they are not doing scene by scene tone mapping or they would NEVER clip. But you have to adjust Contrast HDR on a title by title basis or else you clearly get issues not only with image brightness, but also clipping. This barely takes any time with the projector and content to prove false, so I'm not sure why they would say it in the first place?? If they were truly doing any type of frame by frame tone mapping, you'd never have to adjust anything for any title at all, but it is blatantly obvious with such a minor amount of testing that this is far from the case??



The only thing Sony is doing dynamically is the laser dimming, and even this only applies to the first 3% of the image at most (from black to 3% APL). From there on it isn't doing anything at all.



At some point I'd like to have a sit down WITH a projector and content with their engineers. I am not sure if their marketing guys are just being mislead, or worse don't know, but to demonstrate these things is fairly simple in a room with the projector and content.

Excellent post Kris!!!
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post #2207 of 2242 Old 01-18-2019, 05:58 AM
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Will you be able to adjust the brightness / lumens of the VW5000ES? What if I would not need the full 5000 lumens at times? Can I adjust the brightness?

Thanks.

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post #2208 of 2242 Old 01-18-2019, 12:51 PM
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You can adjust the laser light output level.

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post #2209 of 2242 Old 01-18-2019, 01:22 PM
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It’s nice to have a projector that buyers are concerned on how to turn down the brightness. That’s a refreshing change.
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Will you be able to adjust the brightness / lumens of the VW5000ES? What if I would not need the full 5000 lumens at times? Can I adjust the brightness?

Thanks.
5000 has laser adjustment in 1% steps.
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post #2211 of 2242 Old 01-19-2019, 06:28 AM
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It’s nice to have a projector that buyers are concerned on how to turn down the brightness. That’s a refreshing change.
Refreshing yes, understandable ,at least for me ,not so much.
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post #2212 of 2242 Old 01-19-2019, 08:03 AM
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The situation is we want to be able to watch with some lights on so we’ll use the max brightness. However at times when we turn off all lights we want to be able to lower the brightness of the projector.
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The situation is we want to be able to watch with some lights on so we’ll use the max brightness. However at times when we turn off all lights we want to be able to lower the brightness of the projector.
Yea ,I get that it's just for me I watch stuff at 70fl in a bat cave and still love it. I watched chunk of Blade runner on a 20' wide screen a few months back with the Christie large venue and it was probably175 fL at least in a totally dark room and I still loved it.

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post #2214 of 2242 Old 01-19-2019, 12:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Yea ,I get that it's just for me I watch stuff at 70fl in a bat cave and still love it. I watched chunk of Blade runner on a 20' wide screen a few months back with the Christie large venue and it was probably175 fL at least in a totally dark room and I still loved it.



Art

Ditto!
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post #2215 of 2242 Old 01-20-2019, 04:03 PM
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Anyone heard anything about the firmware update for the VW5000ES which was promised "by and of year" at CEDIA 2018? I sure haven't since then.

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post #2216 of 2242 Old 01-20-2019, 04:33 PM
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Anyone heard anything about the firmware update for the VW5000ES which was promised "by and of year" at CEDIA 2018? I sure haven't since then.
What is it supposed to do ?

Art
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post #2217 of 2242 Old 01-20-2019, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
What is it supposed to do ?

Art
Allegedly features of the new 995 so long as they can be updated by firmware only! For more detail go back to my CEDIA post thread cause my memory is shot!
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post #2218 of 2242 Old 01-20-2019, 07:52 PM
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Anyone know where I can buy a ceiling mount for the 5000?
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post #2219 of 2242 Old 01-20-2019, 09:39 PM
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Only update I was told for the 5000ES at CEDIA was going to be the improved tone mapping algorithm. I didn't realize that the 5000ES lacks the "Contrast Enhancer" feature of the 885/995. On the 995ES it makes a huge difference in subjective quality of HDR playback using the Sony tone mapping when put in High. You lose a bit of accuracy near black and white, but it makes a big difference in image pop and subjective contrast. That could be a huge boost for 5000ES owners that are just using the stock tone mapping, which looks a bit dull IMHO, especially when compared to something like the Radiance Pro or Panasonic tone mapping.

Thanks to Chris for pointing out my mistake on the Contrast Enhancer function. I got bad info on that one so disregard!

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Last edited by Kris Deering; 01-21-2019 at 03:48 PM.
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post #2220 of 2242 Old 01-21-2019, 10:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Only update I was told for the 5000ES at CEDIA was going to be the improved tone mapping algorithm. I didn't realize that the 5000ES lacks the "Contrast Enhancer" feature of the 885/995. On the 995ES it makes a huge difference in subjective quality of HDR playback using the Sony tone mapping when put in High. You lose a bit of accuracy near black and white, but it makes a big difference in image pop and subjective contrast. That could be a huge boost for 5000ES owners that are just using the stock tone mapping, which looks a bit dull IMHO, especially when compared to something like the Radiance Pro or Panasonic tone mapping.



Thanks to Chris for pointing out my mistake on the Contrast Enhancer function. I got bad info on that one so disregard!

You have to be careful using Contrast Enhancer though. I’ve seen it crush blacks and blowout whites when I was tweaking up the VW675ES I had here awhile back.

A good scene to notice it is in The Revenant, the next morning scene after the one where the indian throws DiCaprio a slab of the buffalo meat when he crawls up begging at night. The following morning the Indian pokes him awake with his bow and then the camera pans up the Indian’s body, where the pan takes it from very bright white snow to shadows in his clothes and midsection and then finally to bright highlights of the sky and his face. You can really see the Contrast Enhancer working there and I recall losing shadow detail in his clothing and blown out whites of the snow and sky. I had to back it down some and then all was well.
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