JBL Synthesis SDP-75 - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 463 Old 03-27-2018, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
I think it may have more to do with the 100ma vs 200ma then rather than the voltage... I don't think 100ma is enough to execute and hold the trigger. Somebody else with an RTI/SDP reported the same issue with the RTI not having enough output to trigger the SDP consistently. Thrang was it you, or was it Lon???
Yes I had issues so switched to WoL
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post #302 of 463 Old 03-27-2018, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
I think it may have more to do with the 100ma vs 200ma then rather than the voltage... I don't think 100ma is enough to execute and hold the trigger. Somebody else with an RTI/SDP reported the same issue with the RTI not having enough output to trigger the SDP consistently. Thrang was it you, or was it Lon???
It wasn't me Ted. I could never get the Altitude to shut off and turn on consistently with Crestron.
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post #303 of 463 Old 04-04-2018, 11:08 AM
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I just posted on the Revel/JBL Synthesis thread, I'm putting together a complete Revel system and strongly considering the SDP-75 as a controller. I've spent a fair amount of time in the manual and just want to ask a few questions of this group:

- The SDP-75 seems to have no "tone controls" per se - bass, treble, or loudness contouring? For music listening, some mechanism of tone control is pretty much a must. One way around this might be to create some FIR EQ curves and store them in separate presets? Can EQ curves be stored and loaded independently of a given preset?

- It seems that the room optimization is done on a per-preset basis, so I can have independent measurements/optimizations for single seat music vs. multi-seat video?

- If I already have pretty good seat-to-seat bass response with 3 subs and hand-tuned minidsp EQ/delay, is there any advantage to adding SFM with an SDEC (assuming SDP-75 doesn't have SFM yet)?

Thanks much for any answers.

Scott
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post #304 of 463 Old 04-12-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lioarlan View Post
I just posted on the Revel/JBL Synthesis thread, I'm putting together a complete Revel system and strongly considering the SDP-75 as a controller. I've spent a fair amount of time in the manual and just want to ask a few questions of this group:

- The SDP-75 seems to have no "tone controls" per se - bass, treble, or loudness contouring? For music listening, some mechanism of tone control is pretty much a must. One way around this might be to create some FIR EQ curves and store them in separate presets? Can EQ curves be stored and loaded independently of a given preset?

- It seems that the room optimization is done on a per-preset basis, so I can have independent measurements/optimizations for single seat music vs. multi-seat video?

- If I already have pretty good seat-to-seat bass response with 3 subs and hand-tuned minidsp EQ/delay, is there any advantage to adding SFM with an SDEC (assuming SDP-75 doesn't have SFM yet)?

Thanks much for any answers.

Scott
No tone controls. However, you can create numerous presets with different EQ settings saved along with them.

Yes, you can create a variety of presets tuned for various listening positions, and even weigh each of the measurements according to which seats / locations you want to favor.

Hard to say without measuring. Interesting you are having good results with three subs - from Welti's research usually odd numbers of subs create poor results. However, you are compensating with the minidsps...

SDP75 does not have SFM yet.

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post #305 of 463 Old 04-12-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
No tone controls. However, you can create numerous presets with different EQ settings saved along with them.

Yes, you can create a variety of presets tuned for various listening positions, and even weigh each of the measurements according to which seats / locations you want to favor.

Hard to say without measuring. Interesting you are having good results with three subs - from Welti's research usually odd numbers of subs create poor results. However, you are compensating with the minidsps...

SDP75 does not have SFM yet.
Thanks again for the answers John. On the 3 subs question, I think I'm solving for a somewhat different version of the problem than Welti is. In my room, the most problematic modes by far are 1st and 2nd order width modes, creating a major dip and peak respectively at the MLP, and a lot of seat-to-seat variation as well. The configuration of two front corner and one center rear sub does a nice job of mostly cancelling the 1st order dip, and brings down the 2nd order peak and evens it out between seats so it can be EQed out. If you understand the reasons behind the rules, sometimes the rules can be broken to good effect

Scott
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post #306 of 463 Old 04-13-2018, 05:01 PM
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So the dealer I'm currently working with was on the phone with Harman today, and tells me that the SDP-75 currently has no speaker compensations available? They're working on SCL, but have nothing else currently? This certainly doesn't seem to jibe with what I read on the forums here, but if true it definitely damps my enthusiasm for the SDP-75. Anechoic corrections of my Salon2, Voice2, and probably 705i are a significant selling point for me over other high-end processors ... Anyone from Harman here? Kevin, perhaps?

Thanks for any input,

Scott

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post #307 of 463 Old 04-15-2018, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Lioarlan View Post
So the dealer I'm currently working with was on the phone with Harman today, and tells me that the SDP-75 currently has no speaker compensations available? They're working on SCL, but have nothing else currently? This certainly doesn't seem to jibe with what I read on the forums here, but if true it definitely damps my enthusiasm for the SDP-75. Anechoic corrections of my Salon2, Voice2, and probably 705i are a significant selling point for me over other high-end processors ... Anyone from Harman here? Kevin, perhaps?

Thanks for any input,

Scott
My understanding is that the tunings are being loaded in as fast as possible, and are often specific install driven. So, if you plan on using Salon2s and a Voice2, etc, they will load in those particular tunings when you order the unit (or doing calibration).

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post #308 of 463 Old 04-15-2018, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
My understanding is that the tunings are being loaded in as fast as possible, and are often specific install driven. So, if you plan on using Salon2s and a Voice2, etc, they will load in those particular tunings when you order the unit (or doing calibration).
Thanks John. It seems not all dealers are as current or connected as you are

Scott
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post #309 of 463 Old 04-15-2018, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Lioarlan View Post
Thanks John. It seems not all dealers are as current or connected as you are

Scott
I've been dealing with John for a few years now; he's tuned in and calibrated.
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post #310 of 463 Old 04-16-2018, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
My understanding is that the tunings are being loaded in as fast as possible, and are often specific install driven. So, if you plan on using Salon2s and a Voice2, etc, they will load in those particular tunings when you order the unit (or doing calibration).
Thanks John, with some prodding from me my dealer has gotten the definitive word and we're now squared away. I still wish I was closer to Colorado

Scott
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post #311 of 463 Old 04-16-2018, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Lioarlan View Post
Thanks John, with some prodding from me my dealer has gotten the definitive word and we're now squared away. I still wish I was closer to Colorado

Scott
Thanks, Scott - me too

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post #312 of 463 Old 05-25-2018, 09:24 AM
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No news on the 75 front? No SFM2 yet?
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post #313 of 463 Old 05-27-2018, 12:55 PM
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In Floyd’s book he mentions a technique by Pedersen to eliminate SBIR electronically. When Trinnov first came out, before the Altitude, there was a video that graphically portrayed what Optimizer did. I can’t find the video. But it showed waves coming out of a speaker, bouncing off walls, and the resulting peaks & valleys in room. Then it showed after Optimizer, where some sort of inverse distortion was created that canceled out the effects of the wall bounce.

The Petersen citation is from 2003. Which puts it in the ballpark Trinnov Optimizer.

Is Optimizer using the technique described by Pedersen?
Does Trinnov have processing that eliminates SBIR?
If so, is it retained and used in the SDP-75?

 

 

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post #314 of 463 Old 07-01-2018, 03:53 AM
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Is roon supported in the SDP75 ?

Asked and answered by Roon support, the SDP75 is a Roon ready device
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Last edited by LJG; 07-03-2018 at 08:00 AM.
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post #315 of 463 Old 07-28-2018, 07:08 AM
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In Floyd’s book he mentions a technique by Pedersen to eliminate SBIR electronically. When Trinnov first came out, before the Altitude, there was a video that graphically portrayed what Optimizer did. I can’t find the video. But it showed waves coming out of a speaker, bouncing off walls, and the resulting peaks & valleys in room. Then it showed after Optimizer, where some sort of inverse distortion was created that canceled out the effects of the wall bounce.

The Petersen citation is from 2003. Which puts it in the ballpark Trinnov Optimizer.

Is Optimizer using the technique described by Pedersen?
Does Trinnov have processing that eliminates SBIR?
If so, is it retained and used in the SDP-75?
You mean this?

Quote:
The Optimizer analyses the measurements in the time-frequency domain to identify Early Reflections. Depending on their amplitude, frequency, direction and arrival time, the Optimizer will compensate for them to a certain extent, or not try to compensate for them. After this process, each loudspeaker’s response is “clean” from the early reflections that it is possible to correct with digital technology. The other reflections are not touched
From: https://www.trinnov.com/inventing-digital-acoustics/

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post #316 of 463 Old 08-03-2018, 02:45 PM
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Hello all! Sorry I’ve been away for so long – based on some messages I’ve received, it looks like I was missed, which is a nice little ego boost 😊 The reasons for my absence are two-fold: one, we’ve had several very large local jobs that have taken up a large part of my time, and two – I’ve been trying hard to get back to work on a feature film I’ve had in development for the last couple of years.

But first, I’d like to say that I’m very pleased that @Rex Anderson is essentially going to be taking over my role most of the time on these threads. Since Rex and I started working together we’ve found that we speak in almost exactly the same “voice” – one we think is based in a solid, “evidence-based” approach to these technologies. As a result, Rex now has a direct line to people like Dr. Floyd Toole, Dr. Sean Olive, Kevin Voecks, Mark Glazer and others at Harman that can provide high level feedback for those who are posting here. All the introductions have been made and Rex is now poised to be the “go to” for ACCURATE Harman / Revel / Lexicon / JBL Synthesis info. The whole team at Harman stands by ready to support him 😊

I will be dropping in from time to time but as mentioned above I am getting pulled in other directions. I honestly think Rex is “the guy” to take my place here on AVS.

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post #317 of 463 Old 08-03-2018, 03:06 PM
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I just want to thank John for everything he has done for me and everyone here on the forums. It was big surprise when he asked me to become a part of his team and help folks here on AVS. It all transpired very quickly. I feel honored and privileged to hold this new position.

I hope I can fill John's big shoes here! Don't hesitate to call on me as you would have John. The kind folks at Harman/Revel have offered me their full support so I will make good use of their resources to help answer any questions you may have.

I'm going to the CEDIA show in San Diego next month to meet everyone and get info on all the new products. Of course, I'll give a full report here as soon as I return home.

I'm short on time for the rest of today and tomorrow but will get back asap and carry on!
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post #318 of 463 Old 08-03-2018, 03:13 PM
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Welcome, Rex @Rex Anderson ,

Since you're the new go-to guy, can you pretty please let us know the status of SFM2? It's been a long while since we've had any news and I know many of us are waiting patiently for its implementation.

See you at CEDIA!

/Ken
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post #319 of 463 Old 08-03-2018, 04:16 PM
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Welcome, Rex @Rex Anderson ,
Since you're the new go-to guy, can you pretty please let us know the status of SFM2? It's been a long while since we've had any news and I know many of us are waiting patiently for its implementation.
See you at CEDIA! Ken
Hi Ken,

I'm not up to full speed yet and have family coming for dinner tonight, I'm the chef, lol. Gotta start doing prep work!

I'll look into getting you a response asap! Thanks for your patience....

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post #320 of 463 Old 10-01-2018, 08:03 PM
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Hi Ken,

I'm not up to full speed yet and have family coming for dinner tonight, I'm the chef, lol. Gotta start doing prep work!

I'll look into getting you a response asap! Thanks for your patience....
Looking at post dates, folks are definitely very patient around here . I am curious as to SFM on the SDP-75. Hard to believe every bell and whistle available to Harman is not on a flagship processor like this.

Any updates Rex?
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post #321 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 04:41 AM
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Looking at post dates, folks are definitely very patient around here . I am curious as to SFM on the SDP-75. Hard to believe every bell and whistle available to Harman is not on a flagship processor like this.

Any updates Rex?
There is a work around for implementing SFM. Curt H of Trinnov explained to me at dinner - I don't recall all but he has software to accomplish such is my memory - but only he can do this (for now).

I won't have one until February, I can comment then!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #322 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Looking at post dates, folks are definitely very patient around here . I am curious as to SFM on the SDP-75. Hard to believe every bell and whistle available to Harman is not on a flagship processor like this. Any updates Rex?
Very sorry I have not been able to post about this. I will be moving again in the near future and did not make it to CEDIA as I had planned.

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post #323 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 09:24 AM
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Jumping in to share what I know -

Was at Kevin Voecks' house when the new methodology for SFM was being tested (I was the official "note taker," lol). Essentially it simply involves taking measurements of each subwoofer in the system at each listening position using REW and a calibrated mic. Those measurements are then sent off to Harman, where the number crunching is done. The calibrator gets back a long list of optimal settings ranked in order of evenness of bass vs. output. In Kevin's system the second set of settings had the best balance of output vs. evenness. Those are then input into the SDP75 and voila - SFM!!!

All of this is in beta - they are still working out the particulars and what the costs will be. There is supposed to be a class for advanced dealers and calibrators sometime late this year / beginning of next. Rex and I plan to be there

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post #324 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 09:51 AM
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There is a work around for implementing SFM. Curt H of Trinnov explained to me at dinner - I don't recall all but he has software to accomplish such is my memory - but only he can do this (for now).

I won't have one until February, I can comment then!
I'm contemplating the SDP-75, but I won't pull the trigger if SFM not integrated. SFM is the technology that is spurring a possible upgrade for me, so I will likely just go with a SDEC for far less cost. Can't see owning a flagship piece of gear that is lacking a big piece of the RC puzzle(IMO)
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post #325 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 09:58 AM
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I'm contemplating the SDP-75, but I won't pull the trigger if SFM not integrated. SFM is the technology that is spurring a possible upgrade for me, so I will likely just go with a SDEC for far less cost. Can't see owning a flagship piece of gear that is lacking a big piece of the RC puzzle(IMO)
See my comments above ^^^
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post #326 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I'm contemplating the SDP-75, but I won't pull the trigger if SFM not integrated. SFM is the technology that is spurring a possible upgrade for me, so I will likely just go with a SDEC for far less cost. Can't see owning a flagship piece of gear that is lacking a big piece of the RC puzzle(IMO)
Quote:
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Jumping in to share what I know -

Was at Kevin Voecks' house when the new methodology for SFM was being tested (I was the official "note taker," lol). Essentially it simply involves taking measurements of each subwoofer in the system at each listening position using REW and a calibrated mic. Those measurements are then sent off to Harman, where the number crunching is done. The calibrator gets back a long list of optimal settings ranked in order of evenness of bass vs. output. In Kevin's system the second set of settings had the best balance of output vs. evenness. Those are then input into the SDP75 and voila - SFM!!!

All of this is in beta - they are still working out the particulars and what the costs will be. There is supposed to be a class for advanced dealers and calibrators sometime late this year / beginning of next. Rex and I plan to be there
I believe what John has explained above is what Curt was describing to me a few weeks back. John's explanation is much more clear!
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #327 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 10:39 AM
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I spoke with Dr. Toole about RC and all the different software tools to measure rooms, SMAART, TEF, Meyer SIM etc. Here's what he had to say.

"I was a pioneer user of TEF many, many years ago. It works. There are several TECHRON TEF12 images in my books. SMAART works too, and was originally set up for large venue measurements. I know the designer and JBL used to sell it. All FFT based systems work, and nowadays some cost very little or nothing. Used correctly, they all will give you the same answer and all of them are theoretically capable of the same measurements. The differentiator is the convenience of the user interface and, of course, marketing: generating colorful graphs that contain little or no additional data but are impressive window dressing. The same is true of those decorous waterfall diagrams. SIM is just another variant - no new data, but it can use music as the test signal so that data can be collected during a concert. The others use chirps or pseudo-random noise, and so are faster for the kinds of controlled measurements we are talking about.

I have used several systems over the years, and recently tried Fuzzmeasure, and it works. But I think I will download the very widely used, and free, REW. I hear good things about it and it would be good to use something that forum members can use - many already are. It is also the system currently used for setting up SFM. There are many ways to get to the same answer."

So, there ya have it. Thanks to John and Dr. Toole for summarizing things so eloquently.

Back to packing boxes.....

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post #328 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 11:06 AM
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See my comments above ^^^
Got it. Thanks John!
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post #329 of 463 Old 10-02-2018, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Jumping in to share what I know -

Was at Kevin Voecks' house when the new methodology for SFM was being tested (I was the official "note taker," lol). Essentially it simply involves taking measurements of each subwoofer in the system at each listening position using REW and a calibrated mic. Those measurements are then sent off to Harman, where the number crunching is done. The calibrator gets back a long list of optimal settings ranked in order of evenness of bass vs. output. In Kevin's system the second set of settings had the best balance of output vs. evenness. Those are then input into the SDP75 and voila - SFM!!!

All of this is in beta - they are still working out the particulars and what the costs will be. There is supposed to be a class for advanced dealers and calibrators sometime late this year / beginning of next. Rex and I plan to be there
Hey John,

If JBL needs more Beta testers I’d be more than happy to do some measuring and send it in 😬
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post #330 of 463 Old 10-03-2018, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Jumping in to share what I know -

Was at Kevin Voecks' house when the new methodology for SFM was being tested (I was the official "note taker," lol). Essentially it simply involves taking measurements of each subwoofer in the system at each listening position using REW and a calibrated mic. Those measurements are then sent off to Harman, where the number crunching is done. The calibrator gets back a long list of optimal settings ranked in order of evenness of bass vs. output. In Kevin's system the second set of settings had the best balance of output vs. evenness. Those are then input into the SDP75 and voila - SFM!!!
Nice, so basically a better MSO (multi sub optimizer, written the AVSer andyc) than MSO, with the option of tradeoffs between output and smooth/even bass. I think MSO uses some sort of minimal variation from a target curve as a metric, but it's nice to have options and be able to make tradeoffs and balancing decisions. Nice that one will be able to use REW and just import the multiple positions at the sub level as with MSO.

Quote:
All of this is in beta - they are still working out the particulars and what the costs will be. There is supposed to be a class for advanced dealers and calibrators sometime late this year / beginning of next. Rex and I plan to be there
I'm firmly in the Altitude camp, but if it wasn't for the barrier of selling a roomful of speakers and finding 3D remapping useful for a specific placement reason in my room, I'd seriously consider going JBL/Revel and SDP-75 if I had a reset button.
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