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post #31 of 556 Old 10-16-2015, 05:31 PM
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So will this roughly $1000 in the difference include ARCOS/SDEC? If not then the JBL offering will be quite a bit more when all is said and done.

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post #32 of 556 Old 10-16-2015, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Yzfbossman View Post
That was a great demo! My favorite overall.
Mine as well. Seen so far:
JBL
Barco (no 3D audio at the 0900 showing!)
Wisdom
Steinway Lyngdorf
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post #33 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 04:47 AM
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So JBL has joined the ranks of the hyperexpensive (although I'm sure it will be great) pre/pro that does many channels - 32. And on the opposite end is everything else stuck at 11.2. Where is the middle guy that does 9.2.4 or 9.2.6? Come on Marantz.... don't let me down. My fingers are crosseed that you'll announce something....

Still, is there any hope that the 16 channel JBL is significantly cheaper than the 32 channel? Maybe, just maybe. Hope springs eternal.....
I'm sorry I just don't get this.

Why have a percentage already CONVINCED themselves that they need 15/16/24/32 - fill-in-the-blank-number of speakers over ELEVEN before they even HEAR it (because it doesn't currently exist)?!

Consider even the most GIANT dedicated home setting vs a commercial theater running these arrays...does anyone REALLY think it's a linear comparison and each should be outfitted similarly?

Just reeks of another "mine's bigger" contest that this hobby can definitely do without.

James
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post #34 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sorry I just don't get this.

Why have a percentage already CONVINCED themselves that they need 15/16/24/32 - fill-in-the-blank-number of speakers over ELEVEN before they even HEAR it (because it doesn't currently exist)?!

Consider even the most GIANT dedicated home setting vs a commercial theater running these arrays...does anyone REALLY think it's a linear comparison and each should be outfitted similarly?

Just reeks of another "mine's bigger" contest that this hobby can definitely do without.

James
James

That is the beauty of CEDIA demos. There are several 7.1.4 demos at the show. There are two rooms with higher channel counts- PRO and Harman. PRO's demo (11.1.6) is in one of the small sound rooms, Harman's (13.1.8) is considerably larger, but not bigger then what you might have for dedicated HT (aprox 20x36). Generally, everyone who have visited the rooms and currently has a 3d system, has noticed the improvement allowed by more channels. One of my clients with a 9.1.6 configuration at home, listens often, commented on the higher spatial envelopment offered by my 13.1.8 implementation for Harman. Important to note, I had complete freedom on speaker placement (except doorways), which is critical to making this all work. Choose locations very carefully.

My takeaway from designing many systems, all with various constraints, given all things being equal (speaker type, etc), more speaker locations do equal better envelopment, bigger sweet spot area, better spatial resolution, better experience. Speakers disappear, you are in the bubble. Very hard to get that right with 7.1.4 over a listening area beyond one or two seats.

And yes, one could say I'm biased, as I've had the pleasure of using and designing and tuning high channel count systems for years. Planetariums- which have been doing 3D sound for decades, have lots of speakers, and we are now finally bringing that experience to the home. What a great time to be participating in this new era. I look forward to the time when our technologies become more affordable so more people can enjoy them. I'm hoping Moore's Law will come into play sooner then later.

Cheers,
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post #35 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 09:55 AM
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Generally, everyone who have visited the rooms and currently has a 3d system, has noticed the improvement allowed by more channels. One of my clients with a 9.1.6 configuration at home, listens often, commented on the higher spatial envelopment offered by my 13.1.8 implementation for Harman. Important to note, I had complete freedom on speaker placement (except doorways), which is critical to making this all work. Choose locations very carefully.

My takeaway from designing many systems, all with various constraints, given all things being equal (speaker type, etc), more speaker locations do equal better envelopment, bigger sweet spot area, better spatial resolution, better experience. Speakers disappear, you are in the bubble. Very hard to get that right with 7.1.4 over a listening area beyond one or two seats.

And yes, one could say I'm biased, as I've had the pleasure of using and designing and tuning high channel count systems for years. Planetariums- which have been doing 3D sound for decades, have lots of speakers, and we are now finally bringing that experience to the home. What a great time to be participating in this new era. I look forward to the time when our technologies become more affordable so more people can enjoy them. I'm hoping Moore's Law will come into play sooner then later.

Cheers,[/QUOTE]

Well said!!!!!!!
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post #36 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 11:20 AM
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post #37 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 12:38 PM
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From my meetings today, my understanding is the 16 channel version will be approx 25k msrp and the 32 channel in the mid 30s.
Will these units come with SFM or you will need to use SDEC with it? I am intrigued Hope more info/specs come out soon.

Regards,
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post #38 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post
Generally, everyone who have visited the rooms and currently has a 3d system, has noticed the improvement allowed by more channels. One of my clients with a 9.1.6 configuration at home, listens often, commented on the higher spatial envelopment offered by my 13.1.8 implementation for Harman. Important to note, I had complete freedom on speaker placement (except doorways), which is critical to making this all work. Choose locations very carefully.

My takeaway from designing many systems, all with various constraints, given all things being equal (speaker type, etc), more speaker locations do equal better envelopment, bigger sweet spot area, better spatial resolution, better experience. Speakers disappear, you are in the bubble. Very hard to get that right with 7.1.4 over a listening area beyond one or two seats.

And yes, one could say I'm biased, as I've had the pleasure of using and designing and tuning high channel count systems for years. Planetariums- which have been doing 3D sound for decades, have lots of speakers, and we are now finally bringing that experience to the home. What a great time to be participating in this new era. I look forward to the time when our technologies become more affordable so more people can enjoy them. I'm hoping Moore's Law will come into play sooner then later.

Cheers,
Well said!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
How about a video tour of the room Curt? I'd love to see your speaker placement and the gear used.
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post #39 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kishore View Post
Will these units come with SFM or you will need to use SDEC with it? I am intrigued Hope more info/specs come out soon.

Regards,
Kishore
Interesting. I would imagine the JBL SDEC parametric EQ is far more sophisticated than what is on the Altitude. I do wonder if it is internal to the JBL Trinnov clone?

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #40 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post
Generally, everyone who have visited the rooms and currently has a 3d system, has noticed the improvement allowed by more channels. One of my clients with a 9.1.6 configuration at home, listens often, commented on the higher spatial envelopment offered by my 13.1.8 implementation for Harman. Important to note, I had complete freedom on speaker placement (except doorways), which is critical to making this all work. Choose locations very carefully.

My takeaway from designing many systems, all with various constraints, given all things being equal (speaker type, etc), more speaker locations do equal better envelopment, bigger sweet spot area, better spatial resolution, better experience. Speakers disappear, you are in the bubble. Very hard to get that right with 7.1.4 over a listening area beyond one or two seats.

And yes, one could say I'm biased, as I've had the pleasure of using and designing and tuning high channel count systems for years. Planetariums- which have been doing 3D sound for decades, have lots of speakers, and we are now finally bringing that experience to the home. What a great time to be participating in this new era. I look forward to the time when our technologies become more affordable so more people can enjoy them. I'm hoping Moore's Law will come into play sooner then later.

Cheers,
Well said!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
How about a video tour of the room Curt? I'd love to see your speaker placement and the gear used.
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post #41 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 04:02 PM
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Interesting. I would imagine the JBL SDEC parametric EQ is far more sophisticated than what is on the Altitude. I do wonder if it is internal to the JBL Trinnov clone?
They're talking about adding Blulink output to the Trinnov so it can talk to the SDEC digitally instead of analog... so I assume that means the SDEC is still separate.

There are some additional details here: http://www.twice.com/harmans-jbl-syn...upgraded/58955

 

 

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post #42 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 04:10 PM
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They're talking about adding Blulink output to the Trinnov so it can talk to the SDEC digitally instead of analog... so I assume that means the SDEC is still separate.

There are some additional details here: http://www.twice.com/harmans-jbl-syn...upgraded/58955

Good to know. What is the price on the SDEC? Seems like the ultimate combination.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #43 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 05:46 PM
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I bought the 4500P. It was $7k list. It comes with 4 analog outputs, plus Blu-link output which daisy chains Cat5 to all the synthesis amps. If you need more analog outputs for traditional analog amps, they sell a 4500X expansion which adds $5,000.

The article I linked said they're pairing the Trinnov with the SDEC 3500, which is a bit cheaper than the 4500 and comes with different capabilities including I/O. I thought it was for lower end 7.1 systems (not Atmos), so I'm surprised to see it paired with the Trinnov. Maybe it's a typo, or it could be a misunderstanding on my part.

JBL makes a good case for the SDEC as part of a JBL system. So while I could see where the SDP75 + SDEC may be the best combination for Synthesis, I don't think it would necessarily extend to other setups. Also, JBL is essentially the customer in their relationship, so I wouldn't read too much into the choice of room correction. If JBL liked hot pink, Trinnov would be building hot pink boxes, regardless of what they really thought about the color.
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post #44 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 08:57 PM
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Hi Guys,

Short review because I'm quite tired and have to get up early in the morning. I just got back from Dallas a little while ago. In short, this was the first Synth system I've ever heard that I actually liked. In fact I really enjoyed it. The M2's across the front, along with the new processor, provided a very nice listening experience, and it didn't rip your head off. All surround formats demo'd were very well implemented and immersive. I was told the processor will be available in April. Its a game changer... For me personally, they are back in contention....
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post #45 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 09:21 PM
 
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post #46 of 556 Old 10-17-2015, 10:30 PM
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So I got a chance to visit the JBL implementation of Trinnov today in Dallas at Cedia 2015 and I have some impressions. I also heard 7.1.4 type setups as well from folks like Polk Audio and golden ear.

First off, having a Trinnov myself, I can defintely say that 7.1.4 is NOT as good as higher channel counts. It is most defintely not "enough" if you want really spectacular immersion.

Second, for large rooms, horn loaded designs (JBL, Pro) sound definitively more dynamic than dome (polk) and ribbon tweeters (golden ear and steinway lyndorf). Target curves and trinnov optimization make horns sound phenomenal and you sacrifice nothing.

The JBL synthesis demo was very very good and the best I have heard thusfar. Very immersive. For me second place was steinway lyngdorf. One factor was that steinway's bass is simply not sufficient with their driver contingent in a large room. My DIY Dayton Audio based 4 subs with Lab Gruppen amp are just as good and better at a fraction of the price. JBL synthesis used fairly small surround speakers and with proper bass management you would never know how relatively small they were.

Actually, no demo used full range speakers all around. It is simply not necessary to have full range to get great atmos effect.

Jbl/trinnov played some atmos, auro, and dts X from demo discs and they all sounded excellent. The clip of bombers in Unbroken sounded excellent.

In general, Atmos and DTS X sound great, almost irrespective of source material. Massive subs coupled with high dynamic range speakers that are optimized with room correction ... This is the way to go.

Only trinnov/jbl and steinway had truly compelling atmos processors.

The Star Wars battlegrounds video game demo using Atmos was really the most immersive demo in my opinion. Since it is a first person game, all sound effects are centered on the player at all times. In contrast, in a movie, an action scene jumps between various viewpoints, making surround side effect jump alll over the place. This game is a great reason to steal your kid's playstation and hook it up to your home theater.

JBL+Trinnov is a great fit and honestly I see no additional need for Arcos ... But hey whatever.
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post #47 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
My takeaway from designing many systems, all with various constraints, given all things being equal (speaker type, etc), more speaker locations do equal better envelopment, bigger sweet spot area, better spatial resolution, better experience. Speakers disappear, you are in the bubble. Very hard to get that right with 7.1.4 over a listening area beyond one or two seats.
Yes, indeed, I found your JBL demo room setup to have the best 3D audio immersion I have heard yet. With my 9.1.6 system, the major major major difference for me was the sides, the wides, that really made the Unbroken clip sound great. Alas, I have doors and windows in the way of my ambitions.
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post #48 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 05:43 AM
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I agree that the JBL room was indeed clean with very good sound quality. As for me I wished they stretched there legs a bit and pushed the amps a bit harder would have been interesting to listen at a higher SPL perhaps.

Regarding speaker count that is room size dependant inho.

Not to hijack the thread but the GE demo, for a smaller room, at $6500 MSRP (note it only had one sub) was impressive at least to me.

But that is not the world those live in that visit this section of AVS.

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post #49 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 08:27 AM
 
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How I avoided the line:facepunch:?:facepunch:?:grinning:

http://youtu.be/Q2xBE7qUvvE
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post #50 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 08:34 AM
 
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The demo shpiel

http://youtu.be/Y5PlDKB2Ncs
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post #51 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 08:37 AM
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So... Where's the follow up?

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #52 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 09:23 AM
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I agree that the JBL room was indeed clean with very good sound quality. As for me I wished they stretched there legs a bit and pushed the amps a bit harder would have been interesting to listen at a higher SPL perhaps.

Regarding speaker count that is room size dependant inho.

Not to hijack the thread but the GE demo, for a smaller room, at $6500 MSRP (note it only had one sub) was impressive at least to me.

But that is not the world those live in that visit this section of AVS.
Glad you liked the GE demo, I loved that system when I reviewed it. IMO it was even better-sounding in my studio (and I used dual SuperSub XXLs) but that's the price you pay in a show environment.

This year I liked the JBL/Harman demo the most of all the audio demos. Indeed, I discovered I am jaded to mediocre Atmos now and can see how a poor implementation can turn people off to the concept.

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post #53 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 10:40 AM
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My greatest concern being an audio engineer is can we get these guys a standard to mix by? This is a whole lot different than 5.1. There has to be a consensus and standard amongst the studios and engineers, or its going to get really weird, too many ways to mess things up. Keven V and I spent well over an hour discussing this. The funny thing is, the best mixed track I heard was indeed the new Star Wars video game played through the SL system. It was truly amazing, totally immersive. Whoever mixed it truly "got it". I think its going to be a very interesting time we're moving into as we all truly define what "immersive" really means, and what we expect the outcome to be. In my opinion, Atmos, etc..., done wrong at any stage along the way, is a joke. Implemented incorrectly and it becomes the biggest distraction we've ever experienced, just the opposite of "immersive". Implemented correctly and it will be awesome, but there will need to be a lot of belt tightening at all stages to get it to that level in any kind of consistent fashion...

One thing I'm struggling with, and its probably once again because of my back ground, is trying to cope with the fact my brain is having a hard time tying the screen to the audio, especially in the 2D plane. After watching Peter's demo I found it much easier to correlate the two. In other words, when I see an airplane fly over in 2D, but the audio is in mulit-D/Auro or whatever, there is an imbalance. The audio over takes the picture leaving me disconnected, ESPECIALLY if the implementation is not good, but still even a bit if it is well implemented. The incredible 3D as shown in the "Display Development"s booth via Peter tied it all together. Wisdom took a modest approach to the new formats this show, but I really liked it. I found myself totally immersed in the moment/movie rather than telling myself, "Wow! this is really cool". The effects behind and above were much more subtle. It was much more inline with the video side. It rendered more of an "intimate/homey" effect, rather than a "commercial" effect. That said, I really did enjoy JBL, SL, and especially Peter's demo. It may just be me that needs to come around YMMV
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post #54 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 12:54 PM
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JBL+Trinnov is a great fit and honestly I see no additional need for Arcos ... But hey whatever.
According to Curt's first post, the demo room is using Arcos. Bold emphasis mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
If you come to CEDIA, I believe you will enjoy the Harman demo. All 3 formats - Atmos, Auro, and DTS:X are being demonstrated over a 13.4.11 3D room layout of my design and spatial tuning. The system incorporates JBL's SDECs with ARCOS room tuning.

Maybe Curt can clarify the signal chain used in the demo. My take is it's not a JBL implementation of Trinnov. Rather it's a Trinnov working as a 32 channel surround sound decoder, feeding an SDEC for speaker, room, and preference correction, which in turns feeds JBL amps & speakers.

 

 

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post #55 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 01:18 PM
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According to Curt's first post, the demo room is using Arcos. Bold emphasis mine.




Maybe Curt can clarify the signal chain used in the demo. My take is it's not a JBL implementation of Trinnov. Rather it's a Trinnov working as a 32 channel surround sound decoder, feeding an SDEC for speaker, room, and preference correction, which in turns feeds JBL amps & speakers.
+1

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #56 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 03:46 PM
 
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Ted the 3d helps but running the effect channels full range help create a more homogenous sound field. The little jbl speakers sounded their size compared to the m2s. The Alcons fx were fed full range which provided huge sound stages around the surround mix, the whale harpoon in mad max specifically. The rendering was superb the 450 speakers was the limitation for now I'm not going to bass manage above 40 hz
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post #57 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 04:11 PM
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Wow Peter, didn't realize this. No wonder it sounded so full and homogenous in the Alcons room. Boy it sure makes a big difference. Steering is indeed achievable but not nearly as effective as the full band width implemented properly across the system. So what were the subs crossed at?
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post #59 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bgarcia View Post
Hi Curt,

I have a couple of questions:

1) Why the limit on the number of channels on DTS:X? When do you expect this limitation to be removed, and what is the target supported channels for DTS:X on the Altitude?

2) What happens if I have a Trinnov implementation with more channels, does that preclude me from using DTS:X?

Thx
Bryan
DTS is launching their initial rollout with 7.1.4. They have a lot on their hands, rolling out various DSP solutions in addition to Trinnov. Expectations, given the the format is object based, is that we will be provided with higher channel counts at some yet undetermined time, particularly given DTS is starting with less then either Atmos (24.1.10 max) and Auro (13.1 max). As new formats are released, updates will be made available.

If you have more channels, yes, you can use DTS:X, and if appropriate, can array channels to multiple speakers.

Cheers,

Curt Hoyt
3D Audio Design & Tuning Services
CEDIA 2017 Best Home Cinema Level IV - (3D audio consulting- see profile)

Last edited by Curt_Trinnov; 10-18-2015 at 07:49 PM.
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post #60 of 556 Old 10-18-2015, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
According to Curt's first post, the demo room is using Arcos. Bold emphasis mine.




Maybe Curt can clarify the signal chain used in the demo. My take is it's not a JBL implementation of Trinnov. Rather it's a Trinnov working as a 32 channel surround sound decoder, feeding an SDEC for speaker, room, and preference correction, which in turns feeds JBL amps & speakers.
You have it. The SDP-75 is based on both Trinnov's hardware and software platforms by design. The SDP-75 is designed specifically to match up with ARCOS Adaptive Room Correction.

Cheers

Curt Hoyt
3D Audio Design & Tuning Services
CEDIA 2017 Best Home Cinema Level IV - (3D audio consulting- see profile)
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