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post #61 of 507 Old 10-18-2015, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
for now I'm not going to bass manage above 40 hz
I agree with this, if you have the capability. I changed the crossover point of my full range speakers to 40Hz and it made a difference. My ceilings are almost full range, and I have them crossed at 60Hz simply because I didn't want to risk overloading them with high SPL passages (assuming there is some serious bass information in all channels, which I know there is in the Atmos demos), but let's see, maybe I'll bump them down too. It makes a big difference in the sound, for sure.
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post #62 of 507 Old 10-18-2015, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Ted the 3d helps but running the effect channels full range help create a more homogenous sound field. The little jbl speakers sounded their size compared to the m2s. The Alcons fx were fed full range which provided huge sound stages around the surround mix, the whale harpoon in mad max specifically. The rendering was superb the 450 speakers was the limitation for now I'm not going to bass manage above 40 hz
Peter- Great to see you at CEDIA, I was hoping to see your demo, but couldn't make the limited showing times.

Yes, fuller range always trumps smaller surrounds - In my own theater, I bass manage the fronts at 40z, surrounds at 60hz. As we know, trade shows are typically compromises- room size, speakers, intent. You pushed the boundaries- cheers for that. JBL had a very clean look, and a very shallow sidewall area to place the surrounds - and the installation was quite a challenge.

JBL Synthesis offers a range of Synthesis solutions at a number of price points, so one can scale the performance to their budget and intent.

Perhaps this would be an opportune time for you to start a dedicated thread for further discussion of your "experimental" presentation, so we have a place to learn more specifics.

Cheers,

Curt Hoyt
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CEDIA 2017 Best Home Cinema Level IV - (3D audio consulting- see profile)
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post #63 of 507 Old 10-18-2015, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
DTS is launching their initial rollout with 7.1.4. They have a lot on their hands, rolling out various DSP solutions in addition to Trinnov. Expectations, given the the format is object based, is that we will be provided with higher channel counts at some yet undetermined time, particularly given DTS is starting with less then either Atmos (24.1.10 max) and Auro (13.1 max). As new formats are released, updates will be made available.



If you have more channels, yes, you can use DTS:X, and if appropriate, can array channels to speakers.



Cheers,

Thank you Curt

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post #64 of 507 Old 10-18-2015, 08:03 PM
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The more immersive it gets, the more distracting it feels with rapid scene changes. The star wars video game demo was amazing in atmos because it is a first person game. With my experience with the extremely immersive worlds of mmorpg's, i can tell you that no movie can come close. Object oriented surround was practically born to be mated with video games.
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post #65 of 507 Old 10-18-2015, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bgarcia View Post
Thank you Curt

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Bryan...watch your email. I have more complete information for you on DTS:X and their current limitations.

Dennis Erskine

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post #66 of 507 Old 10-19-2015, 05:06 AM
 
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Curt baby, you outdid yourself , you have touched on the subject before of show condition limitations on demoed . Shut up!:grinning: that discussion needs to be filed in the no longer an issue filing cabinet and forgotten. No longer will that argument be associated nor relevant in any future Trinnov-Hoyt demo discussions. Since the immersion 2025 will be an ongoing process during the next decade there will be several discussions going on on websites and actual hard copy publications where you will be able to follow the development. As I said during the 3 presentations we are only scratching the surfaces. 96 24 is definitely insufficient as far as I am concerned in our system, will 192 be enough? Not until we have pushed it to 394 to be able to compare.

Having auditioned last years synth Dci demo I am blown away by what you accomplished so close to the mastered experience. Again thank you for your amazing contribution to this years cedia. I look forward to working with you guys and also competing at future cedias with harm an s future over the top technological displays, it's fun, it's righteous and I consider myself privileged to be toiling with you in these hitorical endeavors. Great Show curt and trinnov.
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post #67 of 507 Old 10-19-2015, 04:06 PM
 
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Arraying revisited?

I enjoyed the dts-x over the extremely resolved Atmos demo, my impression was that you could definitely pick up more objects but that some objects the left side speaker next to door did call prominence to itself on the bombing raid scene whereas the Dts-x scene rendered as a beautiful bubble of sound. If there are only 12 channels did curt array the channels, if so sucker works perhaps it's time to revisiting the hidden value of arraying. No?

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post #68 of 507 Old 10-19-2015, 08:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post
Bryan...watch your email. I have more complete information for you on DTS:X and their current limitations.
Hi Dennis,

Can you fill us in too, right here in the public domain?

Bests,
Bob
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post #69 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 09:46 AM
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I thought this was the best audio demo of the show for me. I loved the Atmos clip with the WWII planes. The explosions on the screen were placed right where they were supposed to be.


Speaking of Synthesis, the big, beautiful DDs out front were a sight to behold. When they turned them on and up at the close of the show, I was mesmerized. Absolutely astonishing how good they sound.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #70 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 09:52 AM
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Still no mention if the eq is extra?

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post #71 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 10:36 AM
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My feeling is still, less is better unless more is done right...
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post #72 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 03:14 PM
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I'm sorry I just don't get this. Why have a percentage already CONVINCED themselves that they need 15/16/24/32 - fill-in-the-blank-number of speakers over ELEVEN before they even HEAR it (because it doesn't currently exist)?! Consider even the most GIANT dedicated home setting vs a commercial theater running these arrays...does anyone REALLY think it's a linear comparison and each should be outfitted similarly?

Just reeks of another "mine's bigger" contest that this hobby can definitely do without. James
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post #73 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 03:18 PM
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The JBL Synthesis website is currently undergoing site maintenance. We apologize for the inconvenience. Please visit http://www.jbl.com in the interim.
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post #74 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
My feeling is still, less is better unless more is done right...

Perhaps but in comparison to the actual Trinnov unit, I don't believe you can get that without EQ so for example if the JBL price does not include ARCOS and it's within $1000 of the Altitude32 then once you add on EQ I don't see why anyone would want the JBL unless they have heard both EQ's and find ARCOS worth the premium of the complete JBL package. Could be a dangerous decision for JBL if the price is within $1000 or so and doesn't include EQ.

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post #75 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 06:34 PM
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Hi Rod,

Sorry, I meant less Atmos, DTS-X, etc..., is better if its not done correctly Agreed, one likely wouldn't want the box without eq...
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post #76 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post
Perhaps but in comparison to the actual Trinnov unit, I don't believe you can get that without EQ so for example if the JBL price does not include ARCOS and it's within $1000 of the Altitude32 then once you add on EQ I don't see why anyone would want the JBL unless they have heard both EQ's and find ARCOS worth the premium of the complete JBL package. Could be a dangerous decision for JBL if the price is within $1000 or so and doesn't include EQ.
Unless you go the Pro route with JBL speakers or do something very basic, an SDEC is going to be the heart of a Synthesis system. So it's not really a question of SDP75 + SDEC vs Altitude32. If you're doing a JBL Synthesis system, you now have the option of a 32 channel Synthesis surround sound processor with universal 3D audio support plus some extra bells and whistles. Considering "last years model" was the $33,000 Dolby CP850 processor that only decoded Atmos, the Trinnov platform is an improvement. If you're not doing a Synthesis system, nothing really changes on the Trinnov front.

 

 

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post #77 of 507 Old 10-20-2015, 08:57 PM
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So ... What exactly does Arcos do that trinnov's optimizer doesn't and vice versa?

When you have 32 channels running, it will be nearly impossible to tell the difference between two algorithms doing similar things. Once you have all channels delay adjusted, level adjusted, and amplitude adjusted, the remaining differences in impulse and phase adjustments will likely be the parts that vary in implementation.

I'm sure I don't understand what the difference is between the various algorithms but I am guessing that the various algorithms are converging in their overall effect.
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post #78 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 12:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Mine as well. Seen so far:
JBL
Barco (no 3D audio at the 0900 showing!)
Wisdom
Steinway Lyngdorf
That is correct. there were a ratio 22 DCI 4k demos to my IMMERSION 2025 demos on Thursday/Friday (double what I was told ) at the Barco booth on Thursday and Friday Problem with that is that it was demo eye candy phenomenal looking but not an expertly mixed immersive track, heavily voiced overed and in 5.1 compressed 48/16, the Immersion 2025 was only three actual demos (4 but the first one could not go on thursday due to the 3d playback not set up). This limiting of the publics exposure to me if done on purpose by some interest in the booth, backfired as it created more interest in my ultra excvlusive demo LOL and then had several of the most prominent Industry Editors come looking for me to do a special demo, the results where ehr....

Our demo was 96-24 and the atmos titles played in Auromatic imaged beyond expectations actually Jeff has been expounding on that subject.

It was a phenomenal demo and apparently soem are saying the combination of curts spatial speaker setup plus what I think I heard that pretty much blew me away with the dts-x demo... Ok I will come and say it that I am 99% convinced that Curt set up the dts-x arrayed and that that is what created the 3D Bubble effect, the bombing raid was thrilling but you could hear each one of the loudspeakers individually, highly spectacular but the dts-x bubble was insane, it appeared to extend into the subfloor hemisphere by 15 20 degrees all around, I have seen this concept discussed as part of ambisonics I have never ever heard such illusion before. Curt Popped my cherry with DTS-X.

The arcos did an incredible job last year and apparently it did 98% of last years dci atmos pro demo with just blu ray. I thought that the trinnov was handling the EQ, too bad.
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post #79 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 08:26 AM
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Agreed, fantastic presentation. Too bad many missed that clip as it wasn't part of the demo the first day. This brings up the interesting debate of what is "Totally Immersive" vs. "Totally Distractive"? Everything has to tie together and become globally cohesive yet stay delineated. This is difficult to do, especially since every room is different, let alone every mix... The other truly "Totally Immersive" successful demo was the new Star War's game in SL's booth. It was incredible. It was also mixed in first person which was very effective. But my question is, shouldn't everything be mixed from this point of view if the intention is to be "part of the movie?" I mean you're looking at a 2d plane, but the audio that surrounds you is in a different plane. My brain has a really hard time "buying" it if I'm being distracted by a misaligned/mistuned speaker, and/or improper movie mix, calling attention to itself (Peter and I both called this out in the DTS Synth demo mentioned above with one of the side speakers). So what really is the definition of, "Totally Immersive", and how do we get there in a global consistent fashion now that many more channels have been added?
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post #80 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
Agreed, fantastic presentation. Too bad many missed that clip as it wasn't part of the demo the first day. This brings up the interesting debate of what is "Totally Immersive" vs. "Totally Distractive"? Everything has to tie together and become globally cohesive yet stay delineated. This is difficult to do, especially since every room is different, let alone every mix... The other truly "Totally Immersive" successful demo was the new Star War's game in SL's booth. It was incredible. It was also mixed in first person which was very effective. But my question is, shouldn't everything be mixed from this point of view if the intention is to be "part of the movie?" I mean you're looking at a 2d plane, but the audio that surrounds you is in a different plane. My brain has a really hard time "buying" it if I'm being distracted by a misaligned/mistuned speaker, and/or improper movie mix, calling attention to itself (Peter and I both called this out in the DTS Synth demo mentioned above with one of the side speakers). So what really is the definition of, "Totally Immersive", and how do we get there in a global consistent fashion now that many more channels have been added?
Which booth was 'SL'?

Also, which demos were better in the JBL room? The mega channel Atmos demos or the DTS-X demos that were a 7.1.4 core with the other speakers in array fashion? I think Peter feels the latter?

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #81 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 08:48 AM
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Hi Jeff,

The "Star War's" video game was in Steinway Lyndorf's room was mixed in Atmos. The general consensus was that was a show stopper. The "Cymantics' clip was in DTS:X in the Synth booth.
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post #82 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
Hi Jeff,

The "Star War's" video game was in Steinway Lyndorf's room was mixed in Atmos. The general consensus was that was a show stopper. The "Cymantics' clip was in DTS:X in the Synth booth.
Was that a 7.1.4 system or a loaded up system with arrays?

I assume Steinway can't go further than 7.1.4?

Thanks!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #83 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 09:49 AM
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I don't remember Steinway doing a DTS X demo (I could be wrong). They were set up with an Auro/Atmos hybrid speaker arrangement. Sides had heights above them, 4 ceiling speakers (Atmos) and 1 single VOG (Auro) in the middle of them. I sat in the front row, which was terrible for the surround sound field, killing the demo for me.
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post #84 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by thxman View Post
I don't remember Steinway doing a DTS X demo (I could be wrong). They were set up with an Auro/Atmos hybrid speaker arrangement. Sides had heights above them, 4 ceiling speakers (Atmos) and 1 single VOG (Auro) in the middle of them. I sat in the front row, which was terrible for the surround sound field, killing the demo for me.

They weren't doing an DTS:X demo at CEDIA. AFAIK that was only JBL/Trinnov and D&M with hot off the USB key alpha code. There was one poster that mentioned Sony, but I haven't heard anyone else confirm that.

What I remember about Steinway last Friday was that they had handshaking issues getting the Auro demo to work, following the excellent demo of Gravity in Atmos, so at our session they barely had time to run through a few Auro clips. YYMV, but sitting closer to the middle of the front row, I didn't find the sound field that restricting, at least compared to the demo at D&M where I was sitting on the side and the localization of the side surround on the DTS:X and Atmos demos was distracting.


BTW everyone at CEDIA except for Trinnov with Pro Audio and the JBL Synthesis demo was limited to 7.1.4 discrete Atmos channels (or conversely 9.1.2, but I don't remember anyone running that). That's a DSP limitation that any manufacturer using DSP processing for Atmos has as a limitation. Trinnov (and JBL's adaptation with the SDP-75) are the only processors that can currently overcome that limit.

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post #85 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 11:32 AM
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Sony did demo DTS X as well, but few were in their demo for DTS X, which was a good thing since it was lackluster compared to other audio demos.

For the SL demo, I was in the front right corner. To me, sound was either right in front of me or somewhere behind me and I was not enveloped in sound from all around. They even saved seats further back for "VIPs" so I was not surprised. I did not stop for any D&M demos as it is either Datasat or Trinnov in my current focus.
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post #86 of 507 Old 10-23-2015, 01:00 PM
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IAL Acurus _ACT4 was on demo with DTSX and production units are now in the uk with their disti.
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post #87 of 507 Old 10-25-2015, 03:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
Hi Jeff,

The "Star War's" video game was in Steinway Lyndorf's room was mixed in Atmos. The general consensus was that was a show stopper. The "Cymantics' clip was in DTS:X in the Synth booth.
Hi Ted, I finally sent you the info we discussed. What an amazing home studio you have with a six operator console! WOW.

Nice Fabric. Looks like Quest AI supplied.
Here is the speaker you and I picked up in Atmos but not in DTS-X, which I loved and have to insert foot in mouth for past comments as it appears arrayed.


Also the vip's and crashers got seated in the best seats first, here is my selfie with AMIR.


These are the surround speakers used sorry for bad pic.




And the lovely room SFM +??? equalizer from JBL.
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post #88 of 507 Old 10-25-2015, 03:17 PM
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Does anyone know the speaker models used in the JBL - TRINNOV room?

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post #89 of 507 Old 10-25-2015, 03:31 PM
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Hi Mike,

LCR’s: JBL PRO M2’s (3)
2-pairs Sides and 1-pair Rear’s(10-total): JBL PRO CBT50’s
11- Height Speakers: JBL PRO SCS8’s
8- Subs: JBL Synthesis S2S-EX’s (corner loaded, 2-per corner)
1- Processor: SDP-75 Running Dolby Atmos & DTS X/Trinnov hybrid

Amps: 7 x JBL Synthesis SDA-4600’s for LCR’s and Subs
4 x JBL Synthesis SDA-8300’s for Sides, Surrounds, & height channels

EQ’s: 4 x JBL Synthesis Sdec-4500’s

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post #90 of 507 Old 10-25-2015, 03:37 PM
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Thanks Peter!
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