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post #91 of 1442 Old 02-24-2016, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Ok, I just wanted to give a little background to where they received some bad press at that time. No slight on Procella, but I have heard a couple of Seaton systems and consider him right at the top of the food chain.

Of course, I think JBL has just set the standard for the last couple of years.
I vaguely remember it at the time. Didn't hear it myself. I'm not married to any particular brand, and I think my setup could be improved (read more $$$) but I am pretty happy with it.

I've got JBL LSR-308 monitors for my current desktop setup, and while I consider them good for the money, my NHT-M00's kill them. Of course, the NHT's were more than 2x as much.

I want to hear the 308's big brothers - the M2s - but there isn't anywhere close by for a demo. I live in the sticks.

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post #92 of 1442 Old 02-24-2016, 08:37 AM
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@ronny31

1) Pro vs. home cinema speakers. Generally speaking the requirements for pro and home are quite different. Dispersion requirements for pro are less, power handling requirements are higher. Off axis performance requirements are less. The reasons for these differences is related to the rooms they are used in. Home spaces being significantly smaller than commercial cinema type spaces, with resulting higher off axis angle paths from speaker to listener, higher levels of reflected vs. direct sound and shorter listening distances. Speakers are a tool, and their designs broadly follow the requirements for these different spaces.

2) Power conditioners. Some of them make a difference, otherwise we would not specify them in our jobs. There is never enough money for us to do everything we want with respect to the design. So it's an allocation of limited resources as to where they will deliver the most performance return. As an example typically I'd add a Torus before moving to a pre/power amp combo from a high end AVR. We use SurgeX and Torus Power. I don't want to get further into this, because most AVSers strongly believe that power conditioners make zero difference and are a scam. Our testing, real world experiences and the feedback of our customers as to the performance benefits of a Torus reveal otherwise.
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post #93 of 1442 Old 02-24-2016, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
@ronny31 2) Power conditioners. Some of them make a difference, otherwise we would not specify them in our jobs. There is never enough money for us to do everything we want with respect to the design. So it's an allocation of limited resources as to where they will deliver the most performance return. As an example typically I'd add a Torus before moving to a pre/power amp combo from a high end AVR. We use SurgeX and Torus Power. I don't want to get further into this, because most AVSers strongly believe that power conditioners make zero difference and are a scam. Our testing, real world experiences and the feedback of our customers as to the performance benefits of a Torus reveal otherwise.
Share the data with the world then. If its sufficient to convince you surely it can stand up to scrutiny and convince others.
Otherwise its that old "Oh I'm sure I can prove this herb works against that disease, I just don't want to do that because I'm busy painting a horse for my grandmothers funeral horse-races" -tale.
If you expect to make the claim that someone should spend hard-earned money on something that most AVSers strongly consider hogwash its going to take more than the fact that we all have a right to an opinion, to convince anyone to do that.

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post #94 of 1442 Old 02-24-2016, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
Share the data with the world then. If its sufficient to convince you surely it can stand up to scrutiny and convince others.
Otherwise its that old "Oh I'm sure I can prove this herb works against that disease, I just don't want to do that because I'm busy painting a horse for my grandmothers funeral horse-races" -tale.
If you expect to make the claim that someone should spend hard-earned money on something that most AVSers strongly consider hogwash its going to take more than the fact that we all have a right to an opinion, to convince anyone to do that.
Actually I don't have to prove it to anyone. I am satisfied that the right power conditioner makes a performance difference. That's enough for me and many of my clients and many other intelligent and discriminating enthusiasts and home theater designers.

How would you actually measure a power conditioner and it's effects? Sure there are the obvious electrical tests - does it reduce AC distortion, reduce common and differential mode noise, etc. There is a lot of data on that, and my limited testing shows clear improvements. But do those differences in the electrical quality translate to differences in the audio or video signal? Has anyone actually done any testing on this? I'm really not sure that those differences would be revealed by steady state sine wave type tests anyway which is the common way people try to do these "difference" tests. I think you'd have to use a signal and form of analysis that worked for dynamic, transient signals that are more like the content we watch and listen to. The world would be a poorer place if humans did not rely on their senses. We notice something, whether with our senses or with instrumentation, and then the science tries to explain why things are the way they are. All I have seen about the power conditioner thing are theoretical arguments from EEs. Show me the real world data that uses tests that approximate a real world music / movie signal and I'm all open to it. That's the last I will write about it, because I'm not interested in a non-productive back and forth online. You can believe what you believe and I can believe what I believe, and we should leave it at that.

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post #95 of 1442 Old 02-24-2016, 06:30 PM
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Well there is real world benefit to noise filters and isolation transformers. Many MRI machines in hospitals use them but the are far less expensive per amp.
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post #96 of 1442 Old 02-24-2016, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Actually I don't have to prove it to anyone. I am satisfied that the right power conditioner makes a performance difference. That's enough for me and many of my clients and many other intelligent and discriminating enthusiasts and home theater designers.

How would you actually measure a power conditioner and it's effects? Sure there are the obvious electrical tests - does it reduce AC distortion, reduce common and differential mode noise, etc. There is a lot of data on that, and my limited testing shows clear improvements. But do those differences in the electrical quality translate to differences in the audio or video signal? Has anyone actually done any testing on this? I'm really not sure that those differences would be revealed by steady state sine wave type tests anyway which is the common way people try to do these "difference" tests. I think you'd have to use a signal and form of analysis that worked for dynamic, transient signals that are more like the content we watch and listen to. The world would be a poorer place if humans did not rely on their senses. We notice something, whether with our senses or with instrumentation, and then the science tries to explain why things are the way they are. All I have seen about the power conditioner thing are theoretical arguments from EEs. Show me the real world data that uses tests that approximate a real world music / movie signal and I'm all open to it. That's the last I will write about it, because I'm not interested in a non-productive back and forth online. You can believe what you believe and I can believe what I believe, and we should leave it at that.
I couple closing statements:
1. First, about the underlined bit.
Our senses aren't really showing us reality, the brain processes (read: changes) the sensory input to make sense of it after the fact, then we are notified of what our brain thinks reality is. Because, its useful to our survival.
Here's a very short and easy to digest explanation of how the brain twists time to make sense of it in a hunter-gatherer setting of causality (what caused what to happen):
Once you are made used to a light turning on 80ms after you pressed the button, if the delay is made too small, you feel like the light comes on before you pressed the button. To explain all the different ways our brain mistreats sensory information to give us a view of the world divorced from reality, would take years.
So its not so much a matter of science explaining what our senses tell us, its more along the lines of science explaining what our senses really should be telling us.

2. About the bold font bits.
It looks to me that you don't have the data which would be necessary to prove your opinion correct, yet you made the opinion and act on it as if its likely to be true. I have many opinions that have little support, for one I use large T-nuts to secure drivers in enclosures so that they don't drop loose under shipping or impact. It costs slightly more than regular wood screws but it gives me peace of mind, even though maybe the 30lbs woofer wouldn't fall out during an 80G crash with wood screws.
But power conditioners don't add ten bucks to a build, they can add cost worth days of hard work to a project.

Therefore, either you know that others have tested it and shown that it supports the opinion you formed, or you yourself have done extensive testing which you would be able to share with us (method and data recorded from results). Without either one, it is strange how you can treat the opinion as such a reliable thing. All though, its less strange since it gives you income, rather than costing income. If you have the opinion because you make money off it, its important you yourself know (even if you don't admit it openly). So that you can avoid ruining reputation from making a subpar system with a power conditioner in favor of something else with real benefit. If for example the total project cost is 20 grand and the power conditioner would mean there wouldn't be budget for something else that really has a huge effect compared to the power conditioner.

Also, don't forget: If the power conditioning hardware has not been proven to have a clear benefit, then it may as easily make things worse. Just that our unreliable brain tells us its really better because it simply costs more, and as we know wine that is said to cost more gives us more brain-activity associated with pleasure.
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post #97 of 1442 Old 02-24-2016, 09:50 PM
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Here's what Torus has to say about their power conditioners on their web site:

Quote:
Connect audio equipment to a Torus Power Isolation Transformer and it comes alive – with more dynamics, improved imaging, and cleaner, enhanced bass. Video is crisper, with darker blacks, and brighter colours.
Sure sounds like they're convinced. I would love to see a double blind test.

As a computer dealer for many years, we once had a customer who was having repeated failures with the computers we sold him. His power company finally put a monitor on his line and discovered that the voltage was not consistent. A voltage regulator solved the problem. I don't know if his video got crisper and his colors brighter as a side-effect.
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post #98 of 1442 Old 02-24-2016, 11:19 PM
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more dynamics, improved imaging, and cleaner, enhanced bass. Video is crisper, with darker blacks, and brighter colours.
Wow, those are some hefty claims. And to think I adjusted my TV colors down to make them real-looking. Must be the 30 billion dolllar Norwegian power infrastructure giving me too much color XD

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post #99 of 1442 Old 02-25-2016, 07:03 PM
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I'm in the process of building spending approximately $50K on a home theater setup (7.1.4 ATMOS). I didn't spend much on room acoustics because we're building a home in the next 2 years and will spend a significant amount of $ on acoustics at that time. Our current space is roughly 14' x 18' room with a couple of windows I'll have to do something with as well as built-in bookcases. Anyway, I won't be able to realize the potential of the equipment for a couple of years in a dedicated room with proper acoustical treatments. Anyway, here's what I ended up with for just short of $50K:

Pre/Pro: Anthem AVM60
Amps: Anthem MCA-525 and 2 x Anthem MCA-325
Projector: Sony VPL-VW350ES 4K
Screen: Screen Innovations Zero Edge Slate 110" 2.35:1
Speakers (LCR): M&K S300
Speakers (2 Side Surrounds and 4 ATMOS): 6 x M&K IW-85 in-walls
Speakers (Rears): M&K MP150 on-walls
Subwoofer: M&K X12
Power Conditioner/Surge Protector: Furman 20
Rack: SnapAV 42U
Control 4
Installation (Audioquest 12AWG wires, cabling, etc, and minimal acoustic treatments)

I'll replace the in-wall side surrounds with S300T tripoles when we move to the dedicated room but for now the current room layout doesn't allow for wall-mounted tripoles. The side surrounds will actually be installed in ceiling near each sidewall...best I can do for now.

I'm by now means an audiophile but chose the M&Ks based on many reviews and the fact that THX uses M&K in their California facility.
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post #100 of 1442 Old 02-25-2016, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by creasyb001 View Post
I'm in the process of building spending approximately $50K on a home theater setup (7.1.4 ATMOS). I didn't spend much on room acoustics because we're building a home in the next 2 years and will spend a significant amount of $ on acoustics at that time. Our current space is roughly 14' x 18' room with a couple of windows I'll have to do something with as well as built-in bookcases. Anyway, I won't be able to realize the potential of the equipment for a couple of years in a dedicated room with proper acoustical treatments. Anyway, here's what I ended up with for just short of $50K:

Pre/Pro: Anthem AVM60
Amps: Anthem MCA-525 and 2 x Anthem MCA-325
Projector: Sony VPL-VW350ES 4K
Screen: Screen Innovations Zero Edge Slate 110" 2.35:1
Speakers (LCR): M&K S300
Speakers (2 Side Surrounds and 4 ATMOS): 6 x M&K IW-85 in-walls
Speakers (Rears): M&K MP150 on-walls
Subwoofer: M&K X12
Power Conditioner/Surge Protector: Furman 20
Rack: SnapAV 42U
Control 4
Installation (Audioquest 12AWG wires, cabling, etc, and minimal acoustic treatments)

I'll replace the in-wall side surrounds with S300T tripoles when we move to the dedicated room but for now the current room layout doesn't allow for wall-mounted tripoles. The side surrounds will actually be installed in ceiling near each sidewall...best I can do for now.

I'm by now means an audiophile but chose the M&Ks based on many reviews and the fact that THX uses M&K in their California facility.
Oh...and Fusion Escape seating
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post #101 of 1442 Old 02-25-2016, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Five or six years ago at Cedia, EG did a room with Procella. They distanced themselves from the room either before the start of the show or during. Literally the worst sounding demo I think I have ever heard. It was pretty unanimous.

I talked with a guy from Australia that heard the demo. He said Procella does sound pretty good and was at that time going with them over Seaton. IIRC he thought Seaton sounded a little better, but Procella was located close to where he lives.
Hi Eric,

That'd be me ! Hope you're well.

FWIW - whilst planning my room I spent two years listening to speakers including two trips to CEDIA and visited four continents hunting out everything I could find. My choice came down to Procella, Seaton and Genelec, and ultimately Procella won out. Fours years later and it's a decision I haven't regretted for even one second.

Cheers,
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post #102 of 1442 Old 02-26-2016, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
Share the data with the world then. If its sufficient to convince you surely it can stand up to scrutiny and convince others.
Otherwise its that old "Oh I'm sure I can prove this herb works against that disease, I just don't want to do that because I'm busy painting a horse for my grandmothers funeral horse-races" -tale.
If you expect to make the claim that someone should spend hard-earned money on something that most AVSers strongly consider hogwash its going to take more than the fact that we all have a right to an opinion, to convince anyone to do that.
This is such a stupid argument. Why don't YOU share the DATA with the world that shows it doesn't make a difference?? Why don't you also show the DATA that says most AVSers consider it "hogwash"?? You're talking out of your...
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post #103 of 1442 Old 02-26-2016, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter M View Post
Hi Eric,

That'd be me ! Hope you're well.

FWIW - whilst planning my room I spent two years listening to speakers including two trips to CEDIA and visited four continents hunting out everything I could find. My choice came down to Procella, Seaton and Genelec, and ultimately Procella won out. Fours years later and it's a decision I haven't regretted for even one second.

Cheers,
Yep, your the one. I don't like to identify people without their permission.

IIRC one of the reasons you chose Procella was they are local to you. I think the OP is close to Mark, which is one of the reasons I recommended him to the OP.

Also IIRC you considered the JBL demo to be the best in show.

Ironically, it was '11 Cedia that we met for the second time. Two days later I was having a friend work on my teeth. In about ten minutes, I am making the 800 mile drive to get them worked on again.

Also, I remember that Sat night dinner with you, me, Seaton and Keith Yates. One of most memorable and informative times at Cedia.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #104 of 1442 Old 02-26-2016, 06:41 AM
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To the OP, for $34K, the choices in audio equipment are debatable, but I would stress that what you ever do, do not get the HW40ES! lol Like others have said, the best bet for your budget would be the JVC RS400.

As far as audio is concerned, if it were I, I would go with Kef Reference as well as someone else mentioned. Concerning SPL, as long as they are crossed over at 80hz to the subs, that will increase their SPL capabilities and should be well loud enough. JBL Synthesis would be nice but is way out of your budget.

Kef Reference 1 for LR with sound anchor stands, (4) Kef LS50's for Sides and Rears, (4) Kef Ci200RR for ceiling height channels (2) JL Audio E112 Subwoofers, Marantz AV8802 Surround Processor, Parasound Halo A21 amplifier for LR, (4) A23's for the rest of the channels. That's $30K list for all that, you should be able to get at least a 10% discount and bring it down to $27K and they are all available from your dealer. Now THAT's a system! lol

Yes there is no center channel, with Kef's as long as you toe them in properly, no center channel is needed. There is a very wide sweet spot and dialogue is locked onto the screen. No need for an AT screen and better video performance from a matte screen as opposed to perf, especially with 4K. I do this with my system and I also had my friend remove his center channel and go with Kef R700's for L/R. He liked it much better without the center channel.
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post #105 of 1442 Old 02-26-2016, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by creasyb001 View Post

I'm by now means an audiophile but chose the M&Ks based on many reviews and the fact that THX uses M&K in their California facility.
Be a little careful here. I haven't heard the new M&K, but I know the company went through a change of hands a few years ago and have no idea if the speakers at THX are the same ones that are being produced now. For what you are spending, I would think an audition would be mandatory.

I know there are a few Miller and Kriesel owners on the forums, so maybe one will chime in.

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post #106 of 1442 Old 02-26-2016, 11:37 PM
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This is such a stupid argument. Why don't YOU share the DATA with the world that shows it doesn't make a difference?? Why don't you also show the DATA that says most AVSers consider it "hogwash"?? You're talking out of your...
Nyal assumed most AVSers believe that Torus is hogwash, I quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
@ronny31
2) Power conditioners. Some of them make a difference, otherwise we would not specify them in our jobs. There is never enough money for us to do everything we want with respect to the design. So it's an allocation of limited resources as to where they will deliver the most performance return. As an example typically I'd add a Torus before moving to a pre/power amp combo from a high end AVR. We use SurgeX and Torus Power. I don't want to get further into this, because most AVSers strongly believe that power conditioners make zero difference and are a scam. Our testing, real world experiences and the feedback of our customers as to the performance benefits of a Torus reveal otherwise.
I haven't decided where I stand on products such as Torus, but that does not mean I can't refute every claim that it does something good.

Furthermore, Mike, you confuse the burden of evidence. It can not be reversed like that. Those (namely Torus), need to prove it does what they claim it does. The burden is not on the rest of us, to prove that it does not do what Torus claim it does. The burden lays with the one making the claim. And we are not the ones making the claim. Torus is. And those who support such products.
When a priest makes a claim that his God exist. The burden is not on your shoulders, when you claim his claim is hogwash. You don't need to disagree with his claim either, in order to ask him to support his claim. The most dangerous act in the world, is to not question claims you agree with.

You have been thoroughly countered after you said I spoke out of a certain orifice. I'll take your tears or angry scuttling-away as trophies :P
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rms, aka driver diaphragm suspension mechanical resistance: 6.41 Newton.sec/meter. (higher number is better)
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post #107 of 1442 Old 03-01-2016, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
See my replies embedded in your quote above.
"The Marantz plus a two channel amp would be a fine choice. But there is a receiver with a true 9 channel amp built in which will do 7.2.4 with no external amps needed - I own it - the Denon AVR-X7200W. 9 channels of amps, 150W per channel. It's a $3,000 AVR but Accessories4less has them right now for $1,995 as fully warranteed Denon factory refurbs/open boxes - which is what I bought."

As you stated the AVR has 9 channels. 7.2.4 requires 11 channels. So even with the 7200 you are required to add a 2-channel amp.
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post #108 of 1442 Old 03-01-2016, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
"The Marantz plus a two channel amp would be a fine choice. But there is a receiver with a true 9 channel amp built in which will do 7.2.4 with no external amps needed - I own it - the Denon AVR-X7200W. 9 channels of amps, 150W per channel. It's a $3,000 AVR but Accessories4less has them right now for $1,995 as fully warranteed Denon factory refurbs/open boxes - which is what I bought."

As you stated the AVR has 9 channels. 7.2.4 requires 11 channels. So even with the 7200 you are required to add a 2-channel amp.
You are correct and I am wrong. Good grief! Not doing so well with arithmetic. Sheesh.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #109 of 1442 Old 03-02-2016, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
@ronny31

1) Pro vs. home cinema speakers. Generally speaking the requirements for pro and home are quite different. Dispersion requirements for pro are less, power handling requirements are higher. Off axis performance requirements are less. The reasons for these differences is related to the rooms they are used in. Home spaces being significantly smaller than commercial cinema type spaces, with resulting higher off axis angle paths from speaker to listener, higher levels of reflected vs. direct sound and shorter listening distances. Speakers are a tool, and their designs broadly follow the requirements for these different spaces.

2) Power conditioners. Some of them make a difference, otherwise we would not specify them in our jobs. There is never enough money for us to do everything we want with respect to the design. So it's an allocation of limited resources as to where they will deliver the most performance return. As an example typically I'd add a Torus before moving to a pre/power amp combo from a high end AVR. We use SurgeX and Torus Power. I don't want to get further into this, because most AVSers strongly believe that power conditioners make zero difference and are a scam. Our testing, real world experiences and the feedback of our customers as to the performance benefits of a Torus reveal otherwise.
Let me first say I have decided to hire an actual home theater designer for the room. Based on many factors, I am not 100% sure which designer I am going to ultimately hire. I have watched the videos that Chrisreeves posted in my room build thread and listened to everyone here. I even spoke with Nyal for a brief time. Yes, he is one of my considerations. I know whoever I hire will be able to help me make some of these choices, but I am getting educated by all of the feedback on AVS. While I will have a designer who makes sure all is well, I still want to become more educated as you have all helped me do so far.

It seems my 18'L x 14'W x 8.5'H room is on what many would refer to as the smaller size. Making that assumption, it sounds like Home Cinema speakers may be better for my particular application because they would require less power, dispersion requirements are higher and off axis performances requirements are higher. Is that accurate?

There have been many recommendations of speakers here, from the AV Dealer recommending Monitor Audio floor standing speakers, to JBL, Seaton, Klipsch, JTR, Procella, etc. What is the easiest way to tell the difference between a home cinema speaker, a pro cinema speaker and when a speaker like a Monitor Audio Silver is neither? What makes a home cinema speaker a home cinema speaker and a pro cinema speaker a pro cinema speaker? Are there just the three classifications (home cinema, pro cinema, and general audio speakers)? Specifically, what in the specifications sheet would elude to a particular classification?

I found a resource closer to me. This resource recommended listening to various speakers and watching various projectors/screens, which is of course a good recommendation. Unfortunately, I don't have reasonably close access to demo all that gear. This resource asked me questions about my personality, what I liked to listen to, how I liked to listen, what movies I liked, etc. After answering those questions, over the phone they mentioned Tekton Pendragon as a brand that I should considering listening to. They said it may be a good blend of performance taking budget into consideration. RBH was also mentioned. Apparently the main headquarters for both Tekton and RBH are very close to me. This resource also mentioned that many higher end (than me) go JBL Synthesis or Meyer for the theaters they build. This resource did not recommend those for me due to budget. The resource has Cedia certs, but works with Paradise for a portion of their designs...for those higher end systems. Does anyone have opinions on Tekton or RBH? What classification would they fall into? Home cinema? Pro cinema? Something else?

Because of the direction here from most of you, I have decided to definitely go scope screen. I looked up some resources to educate me in that area. I quickly realized I would be making a huge mistake (for me) by going 16x9, as has been mentioned by some here. Somewhere I found a list of over 300 titles that were in various ratios of 2.35/2.40, most of which I own already. I will not be purchasing that Sony anymore. Thank you for helping me avoid that mistake!

Because I will be stepping up to a scope screen, that poses all sorts of other questions. Topics I would like to be more educated on. The first is, my screen will need to be wider. That pretty much means I will need to build out a false wall (not my first choice for two rows in an 18 foot room) at least a little because I won't have room to stuff speakers in the corners on the side of the screen. I know that is not recommended anyway. So now, I have to be careful about size of speakers.

It means I need an acoustically transparent screen. I have heard Seymour screens mentioned often, but screens are something I have NO clue about right now. What is the best way to gain an understanding on screens? Will that JVC RS400 still be the right choice if I'm doing a scope screen? While I don't know much about slides and lenses and such, what is the best way to get into a decent scope screen, projector and all the gadgets that go with it? While I don't mind focusing a projector, I don't want it to be a challenge for the wife and kids to change stuff around when they want to watch a movie. I don't want to spend $15,000 for some automatic rig either. I'm betting there are some good suggestions on that here as well!

I haven't decided on processing/receivers/amps yet, because it depends on the cost of the designer, the room, the speakers and the video presentation...all which most here agree supersede the electronics. I need to answer the questions in the previous sentence before I can determine what will drive the speakers.

Thoughts?
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post #110 of 1442 Old 03-02-2016, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
@ronny31

1) Pro vs. home cinema speakers. Generally speaking the requirements for pro and home are quite different. Dispersion requirements for pro are less, power handling requirements are higher. Off axis performance requirements are less. The reasons for these differences is related to the rooms they are used in. Home spaces being significantly smaller than commercial cinema type spaces, with resulting higher off axis angle paths from speaker to listener, higher levels of reflected vs. direct sound and shorter listening distances. Speakers are a tool, and their designs broadly follow the requirements for these different spaces.

2) Power conditioners. Some of them make a difference, otherwise we would not specify them in our jobs. There is never enough money for us to do everything we want with respect to the design. So it's an allocation of limited resources as to where they will deliver the most performance return. As an example typically I'd add a Torus before moving to a pre/power amp combo from a high end AVR. We use SurgeX and Torus Power. I don't want to get further into this, because most AVSers strongly believe that power conditioners make zero difference and are a scam. Our testing, real world experiences and the feedback of our customers as to the performance benefits of a Torus reveal otherwise.
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Originally Posted by creasyb001 View Post
I'm in the process of building spending approximately $50K on a home theater setup (7.1.4 ATMOS). I didn't spend much on room acoustics because we're building a home in the next 2 years and will spend a significant amount of $ on acoustics at that time. Our current space is roughly 14' x 18' room with a couple of windows I'll have to do something with as well as built-in bookcases. Anyway, I won't be able to realize the potential of the equipment for a couple of years in a dedicated room with proper acoustical treatments. Anyway, here's what I ended up with for just short of $50K:

Pre/Pro: Anthem AVM60
Amps: Anthem MCA-525 and 2 x Anthem MCA-325
Projector: Sony VPL-VW350ES 4K
Screen: Screen Innovations Zero Edge Slate 110" 2.35:1
Speakers (LCR): M&K S300
Speakers (2 Side Surrounds and 4 ATMOS): 6 x M&K IW-85 in-walls
Speakers (Rears): M&K MP150 on-walls
Subwoofer: M&K X12
Power Conditioner/Surge Protector: Furman 20
Rack: SnapAV 42U
Control 4
Installation (Audioquest 12AWG wires, cabling, etc, and minimal acoustic treatments)

I'll replace the in-wall side surrounds with S300T tripoles when we move to the dedicated room but for now the current room layout doesn't allow for wall-mounted tripoles. The side surrounds will actually be installed in ceiling near each sidewall...best I can do for now.

I'm by now means an audiophile but chose the M&Ks based on many reviews and the fact that THX uses M&K in their California facility.
I bet that will sound killer even before you build your new house! Similar budget and room size (for now). Unfortunately, depending on the other costs for the room/acoustic treatments/designer, I won't have as much money as you to do the A/V gear. Do you have it setup yet? I would be curious if you thought that system was overpowered for the room, just right or not enough. Also, what other speakers, subs, amps and processors did you demo against the M&Ks?
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post #111 of 1442 Old 03-02-2016, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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To the OP, for $34K, the choices in audio equipment are debatable, but I would stress that what you ever do, do not get the HW40ES! lol Like others have said, the best bet for your budget would be the JVC RS400.

As far as audio is concerned, if it were I, I would go with Kef Reference as well as someone else mentioned. Concerning SPL, as long as they are crossed over at 80hz to the subs, that will increase their SPL capabilities and should be well loud enough. JBL Synthesis would be nice but is way out of your budget.

Kef Reference 1 for LR with sound anchor stands, (4) Kef LS50's for Sides and Rears, (4) Kef Ci200RR for ceiling height channels (2) JL Audio E112 Subwoofers, Marantz AV8802 Surround Processor, Parasound Halo A21 amplifier for LR, (4) A23's for the rest of the channels. That's $30K list for all that, you should be able to get at least a 10% discount and bring it down to $27K and they are all available from your dealer. Now THAT's a system! lol

Yes there is no center channel, with Kef's as long as you toe them in properly, no center channel is needed. There is a very wide sweet spot and dialogue is locked onto the screen. No need for an AT screen and better video performance from a matte screen as opposed to perf, especially with 4K. I do this with my system and I also had my friend remove his center channel and go with Kef R700's for L/R. He liked it much better without the center channel.
Thanks for the suggested build, all of which I can get with the dealer! Any recommendations for a scope screen, projector and setup? I also have to consider the cost of the room ($20k???), acoustic treatments, A/V designer, installation and "accessories" like cabling and various other items. I'm not sure now, but I don't know if I will have $27k for those components, but I am hopeful!

Do you believe KEF is better than say Procella, Tekton, RBH, Pro Audio, etc? Some of the equipment I have access to through dealer. How about Parasound vs ATI vs Anthem?
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post #112 of 1442 Old 03-02-2016, 11:12 PM
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I will keep it simple and bear in mind this is coming from a working class man who has nowhere near your budget but does appreciate good sound. Most of the brands you have been recommended are extraordinarily overpriced! If it has beautiful wood veneer and is expensive you are not paying for the audio quality alone. If it is huge and is a plain black box and expensive you are definitely paying for the audio quality/performance and nothing more. Pro speakers are exactly what they say- professional movie theaters use these exact speakers. These range in size, price and applications but generally provide extreme performance without the extra pricetag on wood, high-end bragging rights and other pretty things. Klipsch and jbl make speakers for movie theaters. Most of the high end brands you have been offered make speakers for those who can afford them. If I wanted pro theater sound, I would buy a pro theater speaker. If I wanted to waste money, I would buy what you have been offered. Sure some of the brands will perform great. But how much extra money will you throw at them for a possibly underperforming speaker? Check out the diy guys to really understand what performance looks and sounds like.
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post #113 of 1442 Old 03-02-2016, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Aareses View Post
Specifically, what in the specifications sheet would elude to a particular classification?
That kind of specifications sheet does not exist. That's the sorry state of things. Speakers are sold with most of the most important performance characteristics hidden from the user. On and off axis frequency response and distortion at different levels and frequencies, none of this is presented in a meaningful way in common specifications sheets. Review magazines don't measure or publish a complete set of performance data either. For the most part consumers, dealers and installers are flying blind.

Don't think in categories like "home cinema, pro cinema, and general audio speakers". Think about SPL requirements, dispersion width, smoothness of frequency response within listening window, off axis response and room absorption characteristics.

Just an example how differently speakers perform:
https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Directivity.html

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post #114 of 1442 Old 03-03-2016, 12:14 AM
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Here are some random pics I pulled off the net. Even if price were no object this is the sort of thing that comes to mind when I think of $60000 home theater. Others may disagree but you cannot say these would not blow you away could you? These are all actual cinema speakers designed for cinemas. And I know for a fact some of these guys spent nowhere near 30k for their speakers alone.
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(2)RF-83 (1)RC-64ii (2)RF-82ii (2)RC-62ii
(2)Exodus audio tempest-x 15" subs in 200l sealed enclosures
Onkyo 705 pre/pro and rear surrounds
DSPeaker Antimode 8033 sub eq Behringer EP4000 subs
NAD C275BEE mains
AMC 2N100-3 surrounds and center
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post #115 of 1442 Old 03-03-2016, 12:39 AM
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And then there are the DIY crazies who extract every possible bit of performance for the lowest possible amount. I would have any of these pro or diy setups before most of what is on your suggested high priced list. And 60k will get you this kind of performance without a doubt.
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(2)RF-83 (1)RC-64ii (2)RF-82ii (2)RC-62ii
(2)Exodus audio tempest-x 15" subs in 200l sealed enclosures
Onkyo 705 pre/pro and rear surrounds
DSPeaker Antimode 8033 sub eq Behringer EP4000 subs
NAD C275BEE mains
AMC 2N100-3 surrounds and center
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post #116 of 1442 Old 03-03-2016, 12:59 AM
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And all these speakers would run to ear bleeding levels of a mid range receiver, no $10000 amps needed here. The big amps (not big dollar mind you) are running the monster subs that make all the boutique audiophile subwoofers quiver with fear.

(2)RF-83 (1)RC-64ii (2)RF-82ii (2)RC-62ii
(2)Exodus audio tempest-x 15" subs in 200l sealed enclosures
Onkyo 705 pre/pro and rear surrounds
DSPeaker Antimode 8033 sub eq Behringer EP4000 subs
NAD C275BEE mains
AMC 2N100-3 surrounds and center
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Yeah what we're saying is that you want a theater experience, and that just happens to require a certain loudness. Or its rather like having a sportscar that can't keep up with a school bus at the green light.
Doesn't matter how brilliant the sportscar is, if it can't go fast enough. And even if some home-grade speakers are fine for lets say a livingroom surround system and daily music, its not going to be loud enough if you want a theater experience.
A theater experience is to get everything ready, go through the NASA checklist, send out the warning to the neighbors, pop the corn and pour the iced beverages, then sitting down for two hours under a barrage of loud sounds and bright moving pictures.
If you aren't going for this experience, ten grand can buy a great livingroom theater experience where the volume is so that people can answer the phone without changing the volume. You are not going to need a dedicated room for that. Let alone dedicated seating.
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cms, aka driver diaphragm suspension mechanical compliance: 0.000065 meter/Newton or in standard form 6.5e-05 m/N. (smaller number is better)
rms, aka driver diaphragm suspension mechanical resistance: 6.41 Newton.sec/meter. (higher number is better)
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post #118 of 1442 Old 03-03-2016, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Aareses View Post
Thanks for the suggested build, all of which I can get with the dealer! Any recommendations for a scope screen, projector and setup? I also have to consider the cost of the room ($20k???), acoustic treatments, A/V designer, installation and "accessories" like cabling and various other items. I'm not sure now, but I don't know if I will have $27k for those components, but I am hopeful!

Do you believe KEF is better than say Procella, Tekton, RBH, Pro Audio, etc? Some of the equipment I have access to through dealer. How about Parasound vs ATI vs Anthem?
It isn't what is best. It is what is best for you and your room. Most of the time, you can throw a blanket over most speakers once you reach a certain price point.

I think Mike Garrett has a room that is around your size. You should call him and ask him what he did.

As for the screen, AVS has a new AT screen that looks like a serious challenger to the Seymour Enlightor. Stewart has a new AT screen out that I haven't seen. Those should be the only three AT screens you should look at.

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post #119 of 1442 Old 03-03-2016, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
Yeah what we're saying is that you want a theater experience, and that just happens to require a certain loudness. Or its rather like having a sportscar that can't keep up with a school bus at the green light.
Doesn't matter how brilliant the sportscar is, if it can't go fast enough. And even if some home-grade speakers are fine for lets say a livingroom surround system and daily music, its not going to be loud enough if you want a theater experience.
A theater experience is to get everything ready, go through the NASA checklist, send out the warning to the neighbors, pop the corn and pour the iced beverages, then sitting down for two hours under a barrage of loud sounds and bright moving pictures.
If you aren't going for this experience, ten grand can buy a great livingroom theater experience where the volume is so that people can answer the phone without changing the volume. You are not going to need a dedicated room for that. Let alone dedicated seating.
I definitely want to call NASA for the countdown before I fire my theater up! Remember though, I will not be going DIY. I understand why DIY can be a great thing, it's just not my thing.

Thanks for the responses (and images) so far on speakers in the last few hours. It is unfortunate, most of the important characteristics are hidden from us.

Are there any specs such as 95dB 1W @ 1M that would be meaningful? I've heard much about sensitivity and getting an "efficient" speaker. Does that spec mentioned at the beginning of this paragraph give an indication on how efficient the speaker is? Is that one thing I should look for? How important is it? Are there any other stats that are visible and important? Looking at some of the speakers recommended in this thread (and by the dealer), I see a range in that spec anywhere from 85dB to 105dB. If that is one of the good specs to look for, at what dB is considered a high performing for the money speaker?

What I've seen is I can find good reviews on most everything recommended by the dealer and here. I've looked for negative reviews on each as well, but there aren't many...on any. Not talking brands, just trying to understand as I look at speaker options, what I should be looking for instead of having to come back here and ask about every single brand I would consider. While there have been many good recommendations on specific speakers, I am attempting to limit choices based on what I can physically go hear and demo. Unfortunately, that list is somewhat small in my locale. Even the AV Dealer who sells all the brands I listed, has very few of the brands/models for me to listen to. Many of them they will just have to order. As I mentioned earlier, I found another pretty good resource I am going to today. I know what sounds good when I hear it, but it would be good to know what characteristics that are most important. Should I be looking for something that has 95dB sensitivity, like the Tekton Pendragon? It is a minimalist looking speaker, but I've heard it performs well. Those are way less expensive, I believe like what is being recommended here. It is also possible I may not be able to demo the speakers that are best for me, but at least its a goal to listen to speakers and know I like them before buying.

Also, what are good screen/projector setups for making it easy to switch between 2.4:1 and 16:9, without breaking the bank? A few screen names I've heard are the AVS, Seymour and SI. I've heard many talk the JVC RS400.

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post #120 of 1442 Old 03-03-2016, 07:30 AM
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I definitely want to call NASA for the countdown before I fire my theater up! Remember though, I will not be going DIY. I understand why DIY can be a great thing, it's just not my thing.
So spending 10-100 times the money just to have a pretty box and a brand name on it is your thing? Doesn't compute.
If you don't want to DIY then have your contractor do it. Should be easy for him to glue together something like this:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...8-special.html

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