Barco Residential Loki 4K DLP Laser Phosphor Projector - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 103 Old 02-18-2017, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by audvid View Post
Trying to understand your comment: So, now, there are no BD cinemascope discs which need an anamorphic lens? So, there are no true cinemascope (with entire 1920X1080 used), Blu ray discs being sold?
That's true - there's never been an anamorphic BD like there were with DVDs unfortunately. There was an attempt to get something called Folded Space put into place that could address that and be backwardly compatible, but I think the problem may have been that it would not have helped sales like 3D did, or 4k is.

But with good scaling and a good anamorphic lens, the image should be better than a zoomed one due to more pixels being used to render the image. With BD that means using 25% (half a million) more pixels than the zoomed image does. When you zoom, it's like moving your seats 33% closer each time, so the pixels get bigger and courser. Good scaling combined with smaller pixels should give an improved rather than softer image. Of course, a lot depends on how close you sit.

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post #62 of 103 Old 02-18-2017, 05:30 AM
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As for cinescope native, I´m a huge fan myself, but I´m sure this is more of a European thing with our low ceilings, rather using a cinescope-formatted frame, masking down horisontally to 16:9 to utilize the height of the room as much as possible. That´s also the case for my room, being about 12 feed wide and 8 feet floor to ceiling, an 11 feet 2.40 formatted screen allows me to take full advantage of my limited width within the limitation of my 8 feet ceiling...

However, in the US, where 10-12 ft and even higher ceiling heights are common - especially for the segment Barco is targeting - I´m not sure native cinescope native chips will be much of an interest as it makes more sense going 16:9 by default (or 2:1) and mask to 2.40:1 when required.
Unfortunately, the art of presentation is lost, and mostly due to multiplexes and tvs being 16:9. So people these days don't understand that scope should be the widest most immersive format other than IMAX.

In the old days, the projectionist would make sure that all preceding presentations were smaller than the main feature, so when the main feature came on the curtains would draw back and the movie would take on a more epic feel. These days showing scope smaller than 16:9 does a great disservice to the format - the largest is now the smallest.

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post #63 of 103 Old 02-18-2017, 02:29 PM
 
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Yes but now we have Dolby Cinema and Imax as the premiere experience time to move towards filling those aspect ratio better, and with 4k you cna zoom , just hit the oppo zoom button 4 times on a Flatscreen.

It becomes significantly more immersive, you fill your vertical first then let the edges fall where they may.
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post #64 of 103 Old 02-18-2017, 04:01 PM
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Funnily enough, I'm running a CIH+IMAX set up at home. I run it semi permanently masked for CIH at 2xSH seating distance, but when watching a movie with IMAX content, I can remove the masking which gives me the greater vertical viewing angle and equivalent of 1.5xSH

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post #65 of 103 Old 02-19-2017, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Unfortunately, the art of presentation is lost, and mostly due to multiplexes and tvs being 16:9. So people these days don't understand that scope should be the widest most immersive format other than IMAX.

In the old days, the projectionist would make sure that all preceding presentations were smaller than the main feature, so when the main feature came on the curtains would draw back and the movie would take on a more epic feel. These days showing scope smaller than 16:9 does a great disservice to the format - the largest is now the smallest.
Our largest cinema in Oslo (the largest THX cinema in the world by the way, almost 1000 seats, featuring none other than Alcons!!), Colosseum, is still drawing curtains aside when the main feature starts, should be mandatory for all commercial cinemas!!
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post #66 of 103 Old 02-19-2017, 05:24 AM
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Our largest cinema in Oslo (the largest THX cinema in the world by the way, almost 1000 seats, featuring none other than Alcons!!), Colosseum, are still drawing curtains aside when the main feature starts, should be mandatory for all commercial cinemas!!
I completely agree - my local multiplex has one scope screen out of 10 (it's the biggest auditorium of the 10 with just over 400 seats), but none of them have masking (or none that they use) and certainly no curtains. So nothing to add to the presentation beforehand. On the 16:9 screens it's just like watching a big public tv.

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post #67 of 103 Old 02-19-2017, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Unfortunately, the art of presentation is lost, and mostly due to multiplexes and tvs being 16:9. So people these days don't understand that scope should be the widest most immersive format other than IMAX.

In the old days, the projectionist would make sure that all preceding presentations were smaller than the main feature, so when the main feature came on the curtains would draw back and the movie would take on a more epic feel. These days showing scope smaller than 16:9 does a great disservice to the format - the largest is now the smallest.

Although there are those who would disagree with me, I still feel that the scope films, of old at least, were meant to be more grand than other formats.


By the way Gary, I listened to you and just finished my theater with a 16' wide scope screen. CIH... I now sit in the front row scope and second row for 1.33:1 and 1.78:1.


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post #68 of 103 Old 02-19-2017, 04:22 PM
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Hi Art,

I agree with you about scope etc as you know. I saw the pic of your screen and it does indeed look epic

Along with the speakers, it looks (and sounds) like a substantial upgrade. Did you do the surrounds too?

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post #69 of 103 Old 04-28-2017, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post
Trying to understand your comment: So, now, there are no BD cinemascope discs which need an anamorphic lens? So, there are no true cinemascope (with entire 1920X1080 used), Blu-ray discs being sold?
Exactly. The scope you are watching in either 1080P or 2160P cropped. Digital Cinema Initiatives anamorphic widescreen is 4,096 x 1,716 and a true 2.39:1 image. Blu-Ray 1080P or 2160P is 2.39:1 overlaid on a 16x9 image. So you getting a 1920x800 out of a 1920x1080P and so on.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #70 of 103 Old 04-29-2017, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Hi Art,

I agree with you about scope etc as you know. I saw the pic of your screen and it does indeed look epic

Along with the speakers, it looks (and sounds) like a substantial upgrade. Did you do the surrounds too?

Sorry I missed this so long ago. Yes Trinnov Altitude 32 channels upgraded all to JBL Synthesis including M2 fronts. Still with Mark Seaton with subs and getting the F18s next week I hope.


Art
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post #71 of 103 Old 05-13-2017, 06:28 AM
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This looks like a great projector.

Barco made precisely the right move going with TI's XPR technology instead of native 4k. XPR allows for a similar amount of pixels as native 4k (8.3M active), with radically increased on/off contrast over a native DLP 4k model of similar DMD size. Is it exactly 100% perfectly as precise as native 4k? No, there is a bit of pixel overlap. But the difference is so small its DEFINITELY not worth giving up all that native on/off contrast for.

The results produced by DLP XPR is not the same as Epson/JVC eShift projectors, which only produce 4.15M active pixels (half the pixel density and more like 3k).

Better picture quality is the most important thing, and this is what XPR brings for DLP over native 4k given same size DMD, again due to XPR's increased on/off contrast over native 4k.

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Well here it is. The first Loki CinemaScope out in the wild installed by UK dealer Adept IS in a beautiful theatre.

Wonderful ansi contrast and excellent motion performance. I still have to master the optimal calibration technique but excellent tools supplied to balance everything. Some further FW updates due over the next month will allow further improvements.

I have also been testing a Balder beta unit this week and it is looking good also. The common electronics platform between the units is really helping dial in the final firmware on these beasts.
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post #73 of 103 Old 05-18-2017, 10:48 AM
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Well here it is. The first Loki CinemaScope out in the wild installed by UK dealer Adept IS in a beautiful theatre.

Wonderful ansi contrast and excellent motion performance. I still have to master the optimal calibration technique but excellent tools supplied to balance everything. Some further FW updates due over the next month will allow further improvements.

I have also been testing a Balder beta unit this week and it is looking good also. The common electronics platform between the units is really helping dial in the final firmware on these beasts.

Let us be blessed by a full review !


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post #74 of 103 Old 05-18-2017, 10:54 AM
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This is media room model so no DCI filters but 45ftl on the 4m wide 2.35 aspect AT Ref screen should give some idea!

Lots to come now, especially having the Balder test mule available
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
I still feel that the scope films, of old were meant to be more grand than other formats.
Agreed but all the new ones are shot with safe zones for TV. Except Hateful 8 and a new one that is coming.


Remember i had metioned that Imax Interstellar looked like HDR during the 70mm segments? At cinemacon Projection Guru told Mike Nann told me, that he was only doing 6p barcos. Dolby Cinema and TRUE HDR projection :70mm.
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post #77 of 103 Old 05-18-2017, 01:39 PM
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I have also been testing a Balder beta unit this week and it is looking good also. The common electronics platform between the units is really helping dial in the final firmware on these beasts.
I have a Balder coming in as well soon. It was supposed to be in my Lab last week, but apparently it tool a beating during shipping, and is back for repair.

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post #78 of 103 Old 05-18-2017, 01:47 PM
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Some more pics of this fun room. In these shots there was an Orion CinemaScope so a decent increase in projector size if nothing else!!!
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If the Balder or Loki were 3 chip DLPs I would find them more appealing. My eyes don't play well with single chip DLP units. I can see severe rainbow effects, and they give me a headache. It seems to only get worse the brighter the unit.

The only single chip DLP I have been able to watch is the DPI M-vision LED. Even with the super fast switching of the LEDs, i can still occasionally see rainbows, but nothing like a unit with a color wheel.

Is there any info on the speed of the color wheel?
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post #80 of 103 Old 05-19-2017, 12:31 AM
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Unfortunately the 3 DMD XPR platform has rather poor on-off contrast performance. High-contrast model only specced 10% higher. Barco advertised a demo-tour, but when I asked the demo was private (why advertise it), would have to travel too much to go see it elsewhere.

Neil, is that LED or portraitmode LCD, with the edges masked out by the image? Anyway by the look of this picture it could do with an intensity-/colourmatching touch up.

Great room.
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post #81 of 103 Old 05-19-2017, 02:34 AM
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The image at the back is actually a sort of animated photo that matches the brightness of the room lighting. Quite a cool effect.

The photographer definitely hit it with the photoshop effects but it is such a nice room!

It was very nice that the owner joined yesterday and sat for the demo along with the engineers from Adept. I don't often get to see that moment when the big toys are revealed!
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post #82 of 103 Old 05-25-2017, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Although there are those who would disagree with me, I still feel that the scope films, of old at least, were meant to be more grand than other formats.


By the way Gary, I listened to you and just finished my theater with a 16' wide scope screen. CIH... I now sit in the front row scope and second row for 1.33:1 and 1.78:1.


Art

I agree 100% Art. Scope was made IMO for immersion the other formats just cannot achieve.


Art, Sure you had to up my screen by 1 foot wide, very nice!! I wanted bigger, but I am maxing out my RS600





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post #83 of 103 Old 05-27-2017, 10:50 PM
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Rainbow

with barco laser phosphore like loki or balder can you see in mono DLP rainbow?
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at the beginning some but now with new software....
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post #85 of 103 Old 05-28-2017, 12:08 AM
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at the beginning some but now with new software....
why you say "...."
are you sensible about rainbow?
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me? horribly so. But I mean to say maybe it's fixed.

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post #87 of 103 Old 05-28-2017, 01:30 AM
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me? horribly so. But I mean to say maybe it's fixed.
normal without rgb wheel no rainbow.
thanks cineramax
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Being one of the few people to have much hands on time with the Loki and Balder I can say that Barco have done a really good job implementing strategies to minimize rainbow. It is about one more month until the HDR firmware is released that we could consider V1.0 but every interim release has brought improvements as we have been able to get direct feedback to the engineering team even with specific problem scenes.

Just to give an idea of some of the things already working well. When Loki detects 24P content it is internally reprocessed to 96fps meaning the wheels spin much faster but also aids motion without the artefacts you get with non integer frame interpolation.

Myself, the dealer and the client all watched some images from the Loki at the same time and it really was jaw dropping. I cant wait to see it with HDR enabled also.
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post #89 of 103 Old 06-15-2017, 01:01 PM
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How is Barco Residential distributed in the USA?

I'm quite interested in the Cinemascope versions of Loki or Balder for my home theater redo.

The phone receptionist at Barco in Duluth, GA has no clue what I mean by Barco Residential.
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post #90 of 103 Old 06-15-2017, 01:50 PM
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Till now it seemed Tim was the primary salesman;-). He's both the Barco North America MD, as well as the MD/CEO for Barco Residential, globally. He's in Canada, his assitant in San Fransisco (from Memory), engineering back home in Belgium, from your story it seems no-one is in Georgia;-). Barco has a number of offices across North America.

www.barcoresidential.com redirects to http://www.barco.com/en/StaticPages/...sidential/Home. Here's the list of distributors, Meridian and Display Development in the US: http://www.barco.com/en/StaticPages/...ential/Contact.

Display Development people used to post here, I haven't seen them around in quite some time. One of the Euro distributors Neil/DTScreens is quite responsive in these threads though.

There are some dealers active here aswell, like Peter Cineramax, Alan Gouger, and probably a few others aswell.

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