Testreport Series V. Sony VW 5000 4K Laser Projector - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 05:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Testreport Series V. Sony VW 5000 4K Laser Projector

Test Sony Laser Pr. VW5000

I have the pleasure to receive last week the first real series version of the new Sony Laser 4K Pr. the VW 5000.

Feed it with BD makes not any problem but I had a hard time with this pr. as for days I cannot display a HDR Image from the Samsung UHD Player.
Looks like the Samsung not put out a HDR signal it therefore also not output a bigger color signal (DCI Color in a Rec 2020 container).

The solution was a small box in between the Samsung UHD Player and the 5000 and here we go I saw first time HDR+DCI Color.

But first some other things.
As I have my VW 1100 direct in between the seats I watch movies with the pr. direct near my head (6”away only!)
I was skeptical as the VW 5000 demo unit I saw last year had a noise level that made this impossible.

But put the VW 5000 further back I lost some light when I put for scope movies my Isco Anamorphic Lens 1.24 on and the VW 5000 will be not in the ideal position to the screen. So I was positive surprised that my real unit btw with Serial number “1” is not as noisy as the demo unit.

We watch some UHD movies already with it and I had not much problems with the noise level the VW 5000 have even when pr. was direct only 6” away from my ear but I will do a hush box anyway.
So If someone will have the pr. in a normally distance from his ear (1-2 meters away) I think he can live with the sound level without a hush box but this is very depending
on the room the distance and the personal feeling about it.
I was not aware if there is any 5000 lumen Home Cinema pr. out that is so quiet as the VW 5000 was.

You must also know that if you not need to full light output you can dim the laser very much down and the noise level go down.
Same when dark content comes after some seconds the VW 5000 going down with some fans inside and when a bright picture comes up after some seconds it going up with fan noise.

With UHD in HDR with wider colors on I select Color Space 2 (wider than Rec 709 but a bit smaller than DCI) that gives the most lumen and DCI color temperature and I get about 4500 lumen with about 15.000:1 cr.
With BD playback at Rec. 709 you can get about 3850 Lumen and 13500:1 cr. and color looks very perfect rightout the box.

Please note that I will be publish later all the settings I use for BD and UHD Disc in details as this can made huge differences!
On top of this electronically adjustments the VW5000 have a filter that you can movie mechanically inside but this kills a lot of light and you can
depends on the setting get less than 3000 lumens.

There is a Laser dimingfunction inside and there you have 3 settings.Full-Limit-Off.
Full means when the pictureis is totally black for some 1 or 2 sec. it switch the laser almost complete of.
When some material comes up Laser jump on.
If you are sensitive to this you should use the Limit version.
Here it not switch the laser complete of it just reduce the brightness a bit.
Then it also dim the Picture down when the picture show a dark image but a little less aggressive as they do it in Full.
Time will tell me if I usefull or limit in future.
As the cr. the VW5000 offers is very good you can runn it in of as well.


It is very likely as other report at AVS that many UHD Disc had a black bug means that in sequences that are very dark
it looks like there was not any parts with 0 IRE visible with results in a bit washed out black.
As the VW 5000 can Show perfect blacks with BDs I think this is a bug from the Samsung UHD Plyer or how the UHD Disc was mastered.
I read that some here at AVS complain about it already.

A manual iris was not there and this was sad. I have hope Sony put this inside to further increase the native cr. for this people that not have a big
Screen like my screen and can trade of lumen for native cr.

Convergence was good but expect the first time some miss convergence as most of the time transportation
cause some issues that most of the time disappear after some hours.
I recommend to wait some hours and some days before you use the convergence adjustments.
After some days and some running hours now it’s very stable and good.

Shading was very good on my unit.

The lens was very crisp and sharp over the whole picture.

So how the pr. looks beside this numbers is more important than anything else?

To make it short it looks fantastic!
I never in my live saw a picture like this.
It had not any visible speckle it show very nice color and if someone say HDR not looks good with a projector
as only fix panel Displays can do or show HDR good he is very wrong.
No question displays have some advantages and can display a much brighter image but a 65” or even a 85”is only a big TV.

The combination from a bright pr. like the VW 5000 with a good native cr. HDR and DCI color can bring you to a level of picture quality that are likely better than any picture you saw before and this include also Cinemas.

The more you watch it the more it will be difficult to watch again normally BDs as you get soon used to this quality.
HDR in combination with the DCI color looks first very different may some will say it looks dark but it’s just very new and a new way of watching movies.
During I compare for sample Maze Runner 1 the UHD Version in HDR +DCI Color with the VW 5000 displayed with the BD displayed by the VW1100
you fell first when yous witch between them that the VW 1100 have the same lumen as the VW 5000 as visible rated
the VW5000 show about the same brightnes but this is not true as the VW5000 have about 2.5 times the lumen.
I hope that Alan will post some pictures so you can see what I mean..

Let me tell you last what both daughters I have (14 and 10 years old ) are saying when we watch the first complete movie in UHD HDR and DCI color
Maze Runner 1.
My small one sad after 1 or 2min. to me:
“WOW Papa the color and cr.looks very good much better than what we have in the past”
My wife and my older daughter was also say WOW after some min.
And yes I agree as well this is a new world and it’s not so much about more resolution that is visible it’s
-HDR -DCI Color + the possible more Resolution AND the Sony VW 5000 that makes the difference!

I really strongly recommend that everybody that can afford this expensive pr. to test it at a good dealer that
know how to set up the many parameters correctly and decide after.
I will be not surprise if many that can afford it will buy it.

Please note:
This Tread is about the first Test from a Sony VW5000 4K Laser Projector and not about discussion’s DLP vsSXRD so please keep this Thread on topic.
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post #2 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 05:46 AM
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post #3 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 05:47 AM
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post #4 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 06:19 AM
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I haven't read it all yet but very interesting to see how much different brightness is distributed in the SDR and HDR pictures from Maze Runner.
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post #5 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 07:19 AM
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I had been using the HDFury Integral to get the Sammy to work nicely with the 665ES if that's the little box you are referring to. I also planned to use it with the 5000ES as well. Thanks for your first impressions.

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4K HDR10- ignore the “rules” and trust your eyes!
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post #6 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 09:41 AM
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The Samsung does limit the output if it doesn't receive the correct EDID/Display metadata. No HDR display means no p3 10 bits. So Samsung good for demo's as the only game in town, but better wait for Panasonic is what I hear following an UHD BD, HDR Projection event that was held in Belgium this past Saturday. Wolfgang you 'met' Werner in the Sammy test thread after I asked him to share his experiences with you the other week. Find a Sammy UHD BD compatible Remote Control with numeric inputs and you should be able to access the secret menu's with testpatetrns on the Sony UHD BDs.
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post #7 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 11:59 AM
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Wolfgang,
now I have read it all, thanks for your impressions as I know that it takes a lot of time to put together such a long post and to also do all these measurments!
Oliver
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post #8 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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donaldk
I am very sure with the box in between it outputs a HDR Signal and the bigger DCI Color.

I yesterday preorder the Panasonic UHD Player an in 2-4 weeks it should be here.

Tomorrow a professional Color calibrator will visit me and as he have a lot of different HDR material with him i think we can find out what cause the bug beside other things we will do.

So Sony did it again like they did it with the first BDs like Casino Royal that they put at there first UHD Disc Testpattern on ...did the really do this???
If so it will be nice to hear the code or Instruction how to make the Pictures visible.
Are they are at HDR inside?
I have a Samsung 4K TV and possible this remote it will be working as well so just Need to know how as i have 2 Sony UHD The Amazing Spider Man 2 and Chappie with me.

I try here first time to publish 2 Pictures at AVS that Show a White clipping.
With Maze Runner 1 you can go up with Contrast to 91 before it start to Clip as you can see in this Pictures that hopefully will work.
With Maze Runner 2 you can go only up to 86 Contrast before it starts to Clip so why it is so different?
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post #9 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 12:08 PM
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Just asked Werner, for you, as he discovered this, was complaining Sony did not tell him or other calibrators about this as they are doing their best to help promote a new standard in 4K UHD-BD and HDR.

The Fury should work as I asked them about the Fury supporting older players without hdmi 2.0a with HDR displays, and HD fury picked-up on this and added the infoframe selection and insertion feature, to trigger HDR displays. Good to hear that it works in practise, as designed.

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post #10 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 04:24 PM
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Wolfgang, thank you very much for the test report.
If you have any chance to test a 3D disc, I would love to hear your thoughts.
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post #11 of 350 Old 03-14-2016, 07:49 PM
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Thanks for the report Wolfgang. It is very appreciated. Looks to be a great unit.
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post #12 of 350 Old 03-15-2016, 07:54 AM
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Thank you Wolfgang to your share your impressions with us!
I think it's a very good sign that your family reply the change with a WOW.
Do you try the little box in combination Samsung with your VW 1100 also ?
There are a lot of people outside (incl. me), how are looking forward to get the picture with colours bigger than rec 709 on the screen by using the build in DCI Sony Filter in April with the UHD Panasonic or Samsung Player

Best Regards dirk

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post #13 of 350 Old 03-15-2016, 11:06 AM
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Thanks very very much Wolfgang ! We certainly appreciate your time and effort. Few will have the opportunity to see the unit in action.


Art
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post #14 of 350 Old 03-15-2016, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk44 View Post
Thank you Wolfgang to your share your impressions with us!
I think it's a very good sign that your family reply the chance with a WOW.

Do you try the little box in combination Samsung with your VW 1100 also ?
There are a lot of people outside (incl. me), how are looking forward to get the picture with colours bigger than rec 709 on the screen by using the build in DCI Sony Filter in April with the UHD Panasonic or Samsung Player

Best Regards dirk
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post #15 of 350 Old 03-15-2016, 11:43 AM
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April panasonic release the UHD Player and i can Test this with my VW 1100...but i have no little box so far, that is why i ask Wolfgang.
I hope Wolfgang get Samsung Player before his 5000 and give him try with his VW 1100 in the meantime.
The Differenz is with the Pana you can switch off the HDR Signal

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post #16 of 350 Old 03-15-2016, 11:52 AM
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Thanks for the report Wolfgang.

It's nice to see that you're always going out of your way to help people with your tests.
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post #17 of 350 Old 03-15-2016, 01:47 PM
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You mean the integral. I got confirmation that it is not needed with the Sony 520 when using the Panasonic. So doubtful it would be required with the 1100 that shares the inputmodule, nor the 5000 that has a more up-to-date hdmi input.
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post #18 of 350 Old 03-15-2016, 02:10 PM
 
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Hi Wolfgang, here to promise no discussion of dlp. Also I have found big difference between Sony Smurfs 2 (incredible resolution and hdr) and Fox Lego in OLED HDR.




Do you find many of these discs look not much better than BluRay on Oppo while others look phenomenal on Samsung UHD BD?
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post #19 of 350 Old 03-19-2016, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your nice words!

It is a lot of work but I am happy to hear that many like it.
Especially when I hear that there will be not any DLP vs LCOS discussion "at this Tread" .

I have finish my hush box today.
As the unit have a very nice and easy air flow"direction intake at the front Output at the back" it was relatively easy to build a hush box.
It reminds me to the old days when I had first a single stack Sony G 90 CRT Pr. and later a double Stack.
The Sony G90 was much too noisy so I build a hush box.

The noise Level the 5000 have with the hush box is now on pair with the VW1100 so very nice.

As I hear that some will get there unit soon my next post I will tell all the Settings I use to run the 5000 with BDs and UHD BD and some more information’s.
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post #20 of 350 Old 03-19-2016, 05:55 PM
 
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Hi Wolfgang,

We will be working with Walter FM doing comissioning of my new moon of Saturn in Istambul for forum meber Murat who ordered this projector.

You know how lenses have better mtf and less distortion in the middle sweet spot range. So for a 4 meter wide screen (fixed width constant image top with bottom up mask on main 1.77 ar), we want to put hushbox in back of room too, in that case the lens is still in the sweetspot? Ja? the room is 8 meter long.


Or you find the lens to have a nice consistent quality across the zoomrange? That is my question.
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post #21 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 02:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Peter

The ideal Position from any lens and Projector is always in the Center of the Screen.

But it is all depending how much room for shift the lens get when they design the lens and zoom factor is also a big part of it.

As the shift range the Sony 5000 have is very big vertically+- 80% and horizontally +- 31% I guess that if you use 50% of this lensshift it is still in the sweet spot.
But this is also depending about what zoom Ratio you use.

Rate Quality from zoom Position I not can say much but I almost use all the time a very lage Picture so close to max. Picture size.
There the Picture was always very good.
As the VW1100 have the same lens inside and I see at least 5 Units over the last years I like this lens a lot.

Anyway that’s the reason why I have in my Setup the Projector at this specially place as i like to have all the benefits.

But as i say the lens from the 5000 is so very good that even if you use the shift it still perform very good.

Sorry Wuffzack it will take more time to see the unit in 3D.
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post #22 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 04:08 AM
 
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New Japanese Cities Nightime HDR disk must be great!

Thanks Wolfgang, I am glad to be friends again , may stopover to visit during one of the trips to check your kinoraum. We can talk hdr cinema PJ then.

Check out this UHDBD comes out tuesday in Japan. I bet the HDR is sehr gut.
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post #23 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 11:20 AM
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Hi Wolfgang

If you disregard image size ,how does the 5000es compare to your 65inch OLED?
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post #24 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Hi Wolfgang

If you disregard image size ,how does the 5000es compare to your 65inch OLED?
Sorry I cannot answer this.

I not have both Units side by side as I have with a other compare I will post soon.

But I am sure this compare will also answer your question at least a bit.
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post #25 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 01:21 PM
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Wolfgang.
Do you know how this projector will handle Dolby Vision if fed say VUDU UHD DV ?
Understand there will be UHD DV Blu Rays launched in the near future...
DV is a big priority for me.
Thanks.
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post #26 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 01:53 PM
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I definately agree with Wolfgang, the new VW5000 is really stunning. Great machine!

We will publish some measuring results coming week. For everyone who understands german, we also made a first Video-Review where we projected on a 6m Screen.




Also, we will get our hands on two(!) final series machines very soon. As Wolfgang writes, these seem to be even better

Have fun,
Ekki
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post #27 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 02:07 PM
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Hey W-

How does the unit compare on HD (w/o DCI/HDR)? Is it worth the 2x+ difference in comparison to the VW1100? Loss of shadow detail/black level performance? Improved sharpness due to laser? Color? Motion? Etc, etc.

Thanks,
Brian
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post #28 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post
With BD playback at Rec. 709 you can get about 3850 Lumen and 13500:1 cr. and color looks very perfect rightout the box.

Please note that I will be publish later all the settings I use for BD and UHD Disc in details as this can made huge differences!
On top of this electronically adjustments the VW5000 have a filter that you can movie mechanically inside but this kills a lot of light and you can
depends on the setting get less than 3000 lumens
About 25% lightloss is no that bad for the DCI filter and around 3000 lumens is still ok for many Screen sizes.


Does your final series machine match the DCI Color space with the filter engaged? (the pre-production did not).


Regards,
Ekki
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post #29 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 04:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
About 25% lightloss is no that bad for the DCI filter and around 3000 lumens is still ok for many Screen sizes.


Does your final series machine match the DCI Color space with the filter engaged? (the pre-production did not).


Regards,
Ekki
The nec 1100 blu-pumped cinema projector is dci but does not fill the color space in several spot checks at different venues.
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post #30 of 350 Old 03-20-2016, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Again much to read ……

As you can see in the picture I have both the Sony VW1100 and the VW5000 side by side and as I can feed both Pr. with the same Signal I have an ideal
Setup to test parallel both Projectors.

I makes this compare only with BDs as the Banding and Strip Bugs as well the near black bug that other report as well from UHD Disc in HDR are still visible
with the 5000 and looks like no one know at this time what cause this bugs.
Was it the Samsung UHD Player… the UHD Disc or is it the Pr. or is it something else?
I hope soon I will get the answer and the solution as HDR looks with the 5000 really very good.
It’s really a bad start with this UHD Disc with HDR as so many bugs are there.
I think People will be confused a lot with this problems if Industry cannot solve it soon before other runs into it as well.
All this reminds me about 3D when it was brand new!
Please found down some pictures of the Banding and Stripes that are visible with UHD HDR Disc.
Please note that the 2 Pictures one with Dynamic Range Limited and the other with Full Show a difference but when you go to Limited and increase or change the Contrast Setting this bugs comes up as well in Limited!!!
I must point out that I never saw problems like this with the VW 5000 and BD discs and we saw a lot of BDs with it.

So following I compare only BDs with VW1100 and VW 5000.
First Yes I know it is not fair compare as I compare an over 4 year old VW1100 that had not any good cr. anymore that cost much less with the top new develop Laser Pr.
the VW 5000.
But as many still rate the VW1100 as one of the best home cinema pr. in the world I did it.

Running both units in Rec. 709 and D65 I can see that the VW1100 have far less saturation compare to the 5000.
Color looks more saturated with the 5000 and to me it looks much better.
I compensate it and drop at the VW 5000 from 50 to 43.

Cr. well it’s a huge difference but not fair as the VW1100 is in the 3K range the 5000 is in the 12-15K range.
But I also try a compare between them.
The VW 1100 with Auto Iris Full and the 5000 with Laser dimming Full.
Of course the VW 5000 outperform the VW1100 here by far.

Lumen was about double with the 5000 and as the Laser will be not dropping in light out.
The VW 5000 will soon have
more than double the light the VW1100 have.
Right now I have an almost new lamp in the VW1100 at around 180 hours only.

One strange thing I found out.
I adjust of course both pr. at the same level about anything I can adjust.
Looks like sharpness and Reality Creation are with the 5000 with BD at 1080 24P very different to the VW1100.
With the VW1100 I use Reality Creation very soft at about Resolution only 5 and general sharpness at 0.
The same with the 5000 show a very soft image and if you like to go to the same sharpness Level you need about general sharpness at 30-35 and
Reality Creation about also in the 30-40 range.
So both Projectors act very different but I like it this way as most Videophiles are like an not too much enhancement picture and even select 0 with the VW1100
show some enhancement and a sharp Picture.
With the VW 5000 you start really very down so if you not like to much artificially Sharpness you will like it.
If you not like it go to the adjustments and increase it you have the option not so with the VW1100 as there is not any way to going further down.

Here are my adjustments I use for payback BDs with the Oppo BD Player.
I select at the Oppo BD Player Source Direct and with it you can be sure that every picture modification is switch off.
Here the Numbers that are not in the Pictures i add down visible.
-Reality Creation Resolution 35.
-Noise Filtering 5
Cinema Black Pro Laser Light Settings Dynamic Contrast -Limited
-Laser Output Max.
-Contrast Enhancement Off

Rest see pictures.

To explain the 4 pictures that Show different Color Temp.
I shot this 4 pictures with fix color and fix time to show different color and how much more light you get for sample in bank number 5.(about 20% more light and cr.)
The bank 5 I adjust by myself and I try there to get a good color and the most light out the unit can do.

All in all the 5000 outperform the VW1100by a lot.
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