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post #91 of 118 Old 08-19-2016, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob Hahn View Post
Hey Mark! (Thanks again for steering me to Keith. Without you, I never would have had such an amazing experience). You're right about the treatment. Getting the room 'right' was the most important aspect of this whole project. All the gear can be changed, but it's vastly more difficult to change the room!

I'm not sure how comfortable Keith would be to share specifics about the acoustic treatment, as that's really his 'magic sauce' and why you'd want to hire him instead of someone else. My natural instinct is to share... Let me check with him first...

Best,

-Rob

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ter-build.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/92-com...n-theater.html

My previous response was written in haste --- here's what I wanted to say:

Mark (& all), thanks for the kind comments about Rob's theater. As I'm sure you know, a lot of design work went into the project and as much as I'd like to share it with everyone, we have to keep some of that info proprietary (or my company would be out of business)! :-)

I'll be uploading some interesting information about Rob's theater including graphs, test results, etc. in the next couple of days at http://keithyates.com/blog/. Please check it out.

And thanks again for all the wonderful responses. All of us at KYD are thrilled to see that Rob's theater has resonated with so many fellow movie lovers in such a positive way.

-Keith
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Last edited by KeithYates; 08-19-2016 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Original written in haste and not reviewed prior to posting
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post #92 of 118 Old 08-19-2016, 08:34 AM
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Thanks Peter! Believe me, I get it. As i mentioned elsewhere, I was concerned about putting double panes in front of the lens - but truthfully, the projector is a temporary tenant - I know that. I never have intended for the 5000 to be the final pj choice. That said, I've been pleasantly surprised how good the image looks (and I'm _really_ picky). Is it perfect? No way! Could it be better? Absolutely! Is it fairly (even quite) decent for the time being? You bet!

You might even say "How can you say you're picky when you say you like the 5000?" Well, all I can tell you is that the image in my theater can look pretty beautiful. I like the way it's calibrated. But hey, everyone's taste is different...

I can't _wait_ to audition a 6p. Believe me, I'm not married to the Sony. But we all have a budget and it was available and we needed a pj (obviously) so we put it in - and frankly, it looks pretty damn good. But I'm very open to explore new and better options - always!

-Rob

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/92-com...n-theater.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ter-build.html

Wow! Is the 6P available now, stable?

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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Thank you Rob for taking my suggestion in the intended spirit.

Jeff we had a preview of the 6p doing hdr at Alan's.






Are you coming to CEDIA? i can get Barco pass for you. The image of the Thor big barco is so close to it's smaller 2 piece cousin. Our friend La Salle who is building a very special cinema too and I have been looking at Projectors for over a year, this is what he had to say...

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post #94 of 118 Old 08-19-2016, 09:37 AM
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Thank you Rob for taking my suggestion in the intended spirit.

Jeff we had a preview of the 6p doing hdr at Alan's.


Are you coming to CEDIA? i can get Barco pass for you. The image of the Thor big barco is so close to it's smaller 2 piece cousin. Our friend La Salle who is building a very special cinema too and I have been looking at Projectors for over a year, this is what he had to say...

https://youtu.be/lF3wbrfEbtA
Nice review video. I'm still up in the air. May come in the Friday afternoon. Will decide next week. That is a monster of a projector. I'd love to see it! Thanks!
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #95 of 118 Old 08-19-2016, 04:44 PM
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I understand the desire of fellow movie and music lovers to get their hands on such information. The short answer is, We don't disclose it and neither do our clients. If interested in "the rest of the story" check out a blog item that I'll post in the next few days at http://keithyates.com/blog/.
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post #96 of 118 Old 08-19-2016, 11:00 PM
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Mark (& all), thanks for the kind comments about Rob's theater. As I'm sure you know, a lot of design work went into the project and as much as I'd like to share it with everyone, we have to keep some of that info proprietary (or my company would be out of business)! :-)

I'll be uploading some interesting information about Rob's theater including graphs, test results, etc. in the next couple of days at http://keithyates.com/blog/. Please check it out.

And thanks again for all the wonderful responses. All of us at KYD are thrilled to see that Rob's theater has resonated with so many fellow movie lovers in such a positive way.

-Keith
I'm so glad you're doing this Keith. It'll be nice to have this information codified in one place! There's so much of it, it's sometimes hard for me to keep up with it all.

Who knew that all this would grow out of that lunch we had 4 years ago!

-Rob

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/92-com...n-theater.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ter-build.html
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post #97 of 118 Old 08-21-2016, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by KeithYates View Post
My previous response was written in haste --- here's what I wanted to say:

Mark (& all), thanks for the kind comments about Rob's theater. As I'm sure you know, a lot of design work went into the project and as much as I'd like to share it with everyone, we have to keep some of that info proprietary (or my company would be out of business)! :-)

I'll be uploading some interesting information about Rob's theater including graphs, test results, etc. in the next couple of days at http://keithyates.com/blog/. Please check it out.

And thanks again for all the wonderful responses. All of us at KYD are thrilled to see that Rob's theater has resonated with so many fellow movie lovers in such a positive way.

-Keith
Congrats on the project and in case anyone reading along mis-interpreted my question, I was looking to convey a small bit of the degree of effort and space given to the acoustic control of the room. I think it's important to recognize that a system quoted with acoustic treatments of ~3" thick are never going to achieve the experiences that Art and Jake have described. Of course while thick devices do help with making for wider bandwidth control, there is much more to the design and planning than just how thick the devices are.

I look forward to the post and background info on Rob's awesome theater. I hope it gives some insight into all the work and knowledge involved in achieving such a result. It would be pure bonus if it somewhat enlightens an enthusiast with some general understanding of what basic minimums all but preclude such a design effort.
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post #98 of 118 Old 08-23-2016, 12:13 AM
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Hey Rob! I've been thinking about your equipment list and have a question for you.

How are you running your Lake processors? I've heard so many people tell me the Datasat sounds so much better than the Trinnov and was just wondering if you have the Lakes down stream form the Altitude and if so if it was for that reason? Or if they are used to perfectly dial in the speakers and that's all there is to it.

It just seems to me that if they are ran after the Altitude then they should technically change the sonic signature if they were in front of the Altitude, no? Just trying to wrap my head around the purpose of their position in the chain if there is a purpose.
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post #99 of 118 Old 08-24-2016, 10:59 AM
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Thank you Art! That's so nice of you. I was anxious to show you what we had come up with after being so gracious in letting me spend an afternoon with you 8 years ago, pumping you full of questions. Needless to say, when I entered your theater, I also said "Wow!" I am planning on uploading some pictures of the theater very soon. The lighting is a little tricky to capture, as you can imagine.

Thanks again for steering me in Keith Yates' direction. As you experienced, he _really_ knows what he's doing. I'm extremely picky, and I couldn't be happier with the way it came out! Keith is the real deal... I should also give props to Geoff Franklin who designed the video portion of the theater and did all the incredible wiring. He & Keith are a great team!

Pictures to come...

-Rob
Mr. Hahn,

It is very rare for my dad to express a desire to have a photo of a project he has worked on, but every Sunday since he completed his part on your theater project he tells me he wishes he had a photo to frame and hang on the wall of this one. Would it be possible to obtain a few high res versions of your theater photos from the construction phase and of the completed space? I would like to make his wish come true and get a few printed and framed.


I’d also like to thank you again for taking the time to show me your theater and home back in March. It was a great treat to be able to see this project I have been hearing about for two years and to chat about your design inspirations!

Many thanks,
Sarah Cebulski

[email protected]


P.S. If possible, can you please delete this after you read it, or let me know when you do so I can delete it. The forum won't let me send a private message because I have less than 15 posts.
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post #100 of 118 Old 08-26-2016, 03:09 PM
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How are you running your Lake processors? I've heard so many people tell me the Datasat sounds so much better than the Trinnov and was just wondering if you have the Lakes down stream form the Altitude and if so if it was for that reason? Or if they are used to perfectly dial in the speakers and that's all there is to it.
I asked Keith to respond. Here are his answers:

"At the moment the processing is shared by the Trinnov Alt32 and Lake LM26s and LM44s. When Rob’s control system comes online, we’ll retest and re-EQ with the Trinnov doing source selection, surround decoding, and outputting digital to the Lakes, where all crossover, delay, EQ, channel balance, polarity etc. processing will occur.

We’ve done Trinnovs and Datasats on their own, no help from a Lake, Meyer, BSS, Symnet or anything else. It’s possible to get a darn good result that way. For a project with an ambitious performance target, I wouldn’t spec either one by itself. Our experience is, the greater the share of processing handled by Lakes, the better sounding the available outcome. Maybe it’s the underlying math (raised cosine equalization), maybe it’s the converters, maybe it’s the different types of filters (e.g. Mesa) available only in DSPs running raised-cosine types. Not sure. One thing I do know is that a skilled operator can optimize things that no informed person would attempt to do in a more conventional unit. (Adjacent band interaction issues etc.) That part has been known, understood and largely settled for at least a decade in my world. (I can’t count how many times pro & live sound engineers and system optimizers have told me, “There are only two kinds of calibration engineers: The ones using Lakes and the ones griping that their boss is too much of a cheapskate to get ‘em a rack of Lakes.”

It’s rarely only, or even mainly, about the hardware. A skilled doctor can improve a patient’s life with a tongue depressor and stethoscope. But if my life is on the line and things get squirrelly, I’d like to know they’ve got an MRI and CAT scanner as well. For us, the MRI and CAT scanners are Altitude doing the switching and decoding and bussing it to Lakes for x-over, delay, EQ, gain, etc. functions. Maybe there’s something better out there, but I haven’t heard it and I darn sure wouldn’t bet any money on it in a blind test."

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It just seems to me that if they are ran after the Altitude then they should technically change the sonic signature if they were in front of the Altitude, no? Just trying to wrap my head around the purpose of their position in the chain if there is a purpose.
"I would suggest that, provided they’re operated within their linear ranges, a series A+B operation returns the same result as B+A.

P.S. As a bit of background, we don’t sell gear, we only vet & specify it for a particular application, i.e. we work for the client and don’t have a financial interest in product sales one way or another. In the end, the client holds us responsible for the performance result, not the dealer/installer. Since that’s the case we like the freedom to do what we think is best, and clients like the fact that they don’t have to worry that our recommendations are influenced by financial or contractual (dealer agreement) pressures.

We were the first specifier of Trinnovs for high-end residential projects in the US, starting about 10 years ago. Same with Lake, starting even further back, around 2002, back in the day of their Clair i/o and then Contour 2-in, 6-out processors. Although we don’t go back as far with Datasat, we’ve spec’d their RS20i in a number of projects. In the most recent one, our configuration called for an RS20i to feed a stack of Lake LM44s. It ended up sounding really, really good. (Speakers were Focal Grande Utopia EMs and Viva Utopias.)

I don’t get as much time as I’d like to hang out on AVS or other forums so I was completely unaware of a user consensus that a Datasat is thought to sound “so much better” than a Trinnov Altitude. I’d be interested in reading the accounts if you can point me to a thread. I’m curious to know how the listening tests were conducted."

-Keith Yates
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I had the pleasure of spending last evening with Rob and demoing this space. First, a huge thank you to Rob for his hospitality and willingness to invite a total stranger to his home and share this with me. He's as much a gentleman as one could be and it was a total pleasure to hang out for a few hours sharing thoughts and watching clips. The amount of time and money it will save me to have had the opportunity is significant, as I'm entertaining very similar speaker choices....but to the fun part right:

The pictures and descriptions do not do this place justice! It has to be in the top few most incredible theater spaces out there, and certainly the number one I've ever experienced by a longshot. I'm often brought back to a philosophy that has stuck with me for years that the sum of all parts is greater than any one element. It could not be more true in this case. The details in the space from the molding size, to exact colors of fabric, to lighting, to acoustical treatment and even down to the hundreth of a foot lambert in light on the screen really make all the difference. Balance is a word I found myself using with Rob last night quite a few times. Everything is pleasing to the eye, ear and all other senses for that matter. The space "blacks out" perfectly when watching a film, yet is so comfortable and inviting with the lights on hanging out. It's both elegant and strong at the same time. I had the pleasure of speaking with Keith Yates a couple of years back and we chatted HVAC for half an hour. It Rob's theater, you get lost.....the noise floor is unheard of and not exagerating, you can't ever perceive any sound from the HVAC system when feeding or in return. Keith's ability to design a balanced air exchange system are world class.

The balance doesn't stop there of course. The sound in the theater is absolutely fantastic, not just because the emergence scene in WOTW shook my teath (literally), but because it remained balanced through the scene, throughout the sound spectrum. One could experience all of the effects from ULF to laser shots without fatigue and without the feeling that one region ever over powered the other. I truly got lost in the space more than once. Rob would stop a clip and I'd be silent for about 30 seconds before I realized where I was.

I can't say unequivocally which attribute gives this place it's "wow" because as I said above, the sum of the parts is the key. Keith's knowledge and involvement along with treatment plan, speaker choice, Trinnov, Dolby Lakes, etc, etc, etc. It almost makes choices more difficult because you can't single anything out

People told me I was crazy a couple of years back for considering JBL pro gear..even when I bought SCS8s to test and others, they said "her there's better out there for this". I have to say, if there is, I don't care. The stage is seamless moving from to back, side to side and overhead. The M2, AC28/26, SCS and the 8340a blend perfectly.

What I loved most was Rob's appreciation for the space. You could see the joy in his face when talking about different aspects and about the process. The "is this really mine" attitude that he has about, even being as experienced and versed as he is. A huge congratulations to you again Rob for such an acheivment and thank you so much again for giving me the opportunity to experience it!

Jake
WOW! Awesome! I thought of you when I saw Rob's room, it was similar to what you said you once wanted. Wish I was there it sounded like awesome times! Thanks for sharing.
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post #102 of 118 Old 08-29-2016, 01:42 PM
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I asked Keith to respond. Here are his answers:

"At the moment the processing is shared by the Trinnov Alt32 and Lake LM26s and LM44s. When Rob’s control system comes online, we’ll retest and re-EQ with the Trinnov doing source selection, surround decoding, and outputting digital to the Lakes, where all crossover, delay, EQ, channel balance, polarity etc. processing will occur.

We’ve done Trinnovs and Datasats on their own, no help from a Lake, Meyer, BSS, Symnet or anything else. It’s possible to get a darn good result that way. For a project with an ambitious performance target, I wouldn’t spec either one by itself. Our experience is, the greater the share of processing handled by Lakes, the better sounding the available outcome. Maybe it’s the underlying math (raised cosine equalization), maybe it’s the converters, maybe it’s the different types of filters (e.g. Mesa) available only in DSPs running raised-cosine types. Not sure. One thing I do know is that a skilled operator can optimize things that no informed person would attempt to do in a more conventional unit. (Adjacent band interaction issues etc.) That part has been known, understood and largely settled for at least a decade in my world. (I can’t count how many times pro & live sound engineers and system optimizers have told me, “There are only two kinds of calibration engineers: The ones using Lakes and the ones griping that their boss is too much of a cheapskate to get ‘em a rack of Lakes.”

It’s rarely only, or even mainly, about the hardware. A skilled doctor can improve a patient’s life with a tongue depressor and stethoscope. But if my life is on the line and things get squirrelly, I’d like to know they’ve got an MRI and CAT scanner as well. For us, the MRI and CAT scanners are Altitude doing the switching and decoding and bussing it to Lakes for x-over, delay, EQ, gain, etc. functions. Maybe there’s something better out there, but I haven’t heard it and I darn sure wouldn’t bet any money on it in a blind test."



"I would suggest that, provided they’re operated within their linear ranges, a series A+B operation returns the same result as B+A.

P.S. As a bit of background, we don’t sell gear, we only vet & specify it for a particular application, i.e. we work for the client and don’t have a financial interest in product sales one way or another. In the end, the client holds us responsible for the performance result, not the dealer/installer. Since that’s the case we like the freedom to do what we think is best, and clients like the fact that they don’t have to worry that our recommendations are influenced by financial or contractual (dealer agreement) pressures.

We were the first specifier of Trinnovs for high-end residential projects in the US, starting about 10 years ago. Same with Lake, starting even further back, around 2002, back in the day of their Clair i/o and then Contour 2-in, 6-out processors. Although we don’t go back as far with Datasat, we’ve spec’d their RS20i in a number of projects. In the most recent one, our configuration called for an RS20i to feed a stack of Lake LM44s. It ended up sounding really, really good. (Speakers were Focal Grande Utopia EMs and Viva Utopias.)

I don’t get as much time as I’d like to hang out on AVS or other forums so I was completely unaware of a user consensus that a Datasat is thought to sound “so much better” than a Trinnov Altitude. I’d be interested in reading the accounts if you can point me to a thread. I’m curious to know how the listening tests were conducted."

-Keith Yates

I wish I could point Keith or anyone for that matter to where "The Audiophiles" say that the Datasat sounds so much better than the Altitude32. Obviously with that said I can't as its spread out and through conversations I've had since started researching the Altitude32. What I can say is that at least half a dozen people that claim to have heard both have actually in a way dogged the Altitude32 compared to the Datasat in a way.

To me, the Altitude32 is the only option if one is wanting multi object based surround without Atmos restrictions. And I don't see many of the restrictions being lifted anytime soon on the PrePros and AVRs. It's going to take another company to develop a computer based program similar to Trinnov for true object based surround to be possible without restrictions. There's just not enough money to be made by the manufactures to pay Dolby for the rights for "much" more than what they have released now. There just aren't enough of us crazies that devote the space and money needed for more than 7.2.4 or 9.2.6 at most for the manufactures to recoup their investment with Dolby.

The new PEQ function on the Altitude should help anyone that "thinks" the Trinnov has any sound reproduction deficiencies, no? That is just my opinion and is coming from someone who isn't nearly as versed in the high end electronics sector as some that frequent this section of the forums.

So with all that said, take it as you may but I have no personal opinion that there is a great difference in sound from one DSP to another. Nor have I heard either unit but plan on purchasing the Altitude32 and am eagerly awaiting to hear the offerings at CEDIA just to reinforce my thoughts on spending the money to achieve what I expect to be draw dropping object based audio.

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post #103 of 118 Old 08-29-2016, 02:55 PM
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Assuming PEQ's function is for general response shaping/voicing and not narrow-band anomalies, what does it offer over target curves?

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post #104 of 118 Old 08-29-2016, 04:01 PM
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Assuming PEQ's function is for general response shaping/voicing and not narrow-band anomalies, what does it offer over target curves?
I'm hoping to learn more but hoping it will open up some paths of actively running some speakers without other high end products. Will sit back and watch what it allows the professionals to do. Peter briefly touched on it in the Atitude thread.
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Wink Mea Culpa

I'll step forward and clarify why some of my past comments could have been construed as promoting the idea that Datasat sounded better.

When i did Albiorix atop Moscow City PH using an ADA cinema reference we deployed a 30 speaker count with 10 18" volt subs, the CR is far appart from the Altitude (specially now), compounding my dissatisfaction by no fault of Curt but the apparatchiks in Customs the CR was stuck in customs as they claimed the system was suspect of being some sort of bootleg replication lab, I had to manually draw an interconnection chart to convince them it was a home theater, but the day it cleared customs Curt left.




So I was stuck with the remote calibration option, NOT FUN and pretty much a futile effort as the calibrator needs to assess on site. That left a bad taste in my mouth, also the SRC's in the ADA and several dtoa atod elements Quested crossover compounded the AMT to sound strident, upon returning to Miami I was able to whip out a few beautiful sounding systems easily with dirac. So for mass production of a certain budget level for uninitiated customers in things psychoacoustic (or user calibration) Dirac does a fine job near-automatically; Walter confirmed that too when he got his altitude to prepare for the Istanbul it takes 3 days to begin taming the altitude for someone knowing what they are doing it is not end user friendly; Hyperion calibration number crunching took inordinately long with 13 mic positions and 35 speakers. So I can see what why the Top pros like to distribute the processing.

Rob can i ask you to ask Keith what does he think of acourate for non live applications?

Also please let him know that he should visit the Arts district 4 to take a listen to the Alkies, will you relay that? Regards!
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post #106 of 118 Old 08-30-2016, 01:50 AM
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Assuming PEQ's function is for general response shaping/voicing and not narrow-band anomalies, what does it offer over target curves?
Doesn't the PEQ function offer exactly that? Shaping the response curve towards your set target curve?
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post #107 of 118 Old 08-30-2016, 11:09 AM
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Doesn't the PEQ function offer exactly that? Shaping the response curve towards your set target curve?
Yes, but in a more roundabout way, which is why I asked.
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post #108 of 118 Old 08-30-2016, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Rob can i ask you to ask Keith what does he think of acourate for non live applications?

Also please let him know that he should visit the Arts district 4 to take a listen to the Alkies, will you relay that? Regards!
Peter, Keith is checking out these forums (on a limited basis) so I'm pretty sure he'll see this...

-Rob

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post #109 of 118 Old 09-07-2016, 04:25 PM
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What are these two panels that are flanking this surround speaker on its left and right?

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post #110 of 118 Old 09-08-2016, 09:33 PM
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What are these two panels that are flanking this surround speaker on its left and right?

If you mean the black vertical forms surrounding the surround speakers - those are various acoustic treatments. There is a combination of diffusors and absorption material all throughout the room...

-Rob

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post #111 of 118 Old 09-08-2016, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Hahn View Post
If you mean the black vertical forms surrounding the surround speakers - those are various acoustic treatments. There is a combination of diffusors and absorption material all throughout the room...

-Rob

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ter-build.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/92-com...n-theater.html
Yes but I'm only talking about the two panels that are beside the surround speaker on the left in the picture. The panel on the left of the speaker and the panel to the right of the speaker. I've seen similar panels before but don't know what kind they are. The other panels look to be diffusers of a QRD design and possibly even Diffractals to be exact. The outer wells look to have the Diffractal panels in them. They are very nice and pricey but get the job done easily and predictably.

But the other panels (flanking the left speaker) I have seen before and just don't have a clue what they are. They almost look like they have multiple slats/wells but are spaced very close together and are fairly deep. On one hand I would think absorption but then again that wouldn't seem right since absorption is behind them. I've seen them in studios and have always wondered what they were. I noticed them in your pictures right away and figured if I searched hard enough I could find something similar. But, nope only other pictures lol.

Edit- Ok. I just looked at them on our new laptop (haven't had a Windows operating system in a couple of years until a couple days ago. Had to buy one for room/speaker/QRD modeling) and blew the picture up. They must be diffusers as well but designed with specific frequency crossovers/limits to work well with the speakers and other diffusers. Makes sense when can actually see them on a larger screen.

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post #112 of 118 Old 09-11-2016, 11:48 PM
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More pics!

Hi all,

Just wanted to let you know I've uploaded more pictures in my theater build thread (the link below takes you to the start of the new photos) - Keep checking as I'm going to upload more:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post46715137
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post #113 of 118 Old 10-04-2016, 04:44 AM
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Edit- Ok. I just looked at them on our new laptop (haven't had a Windows operating system in a couple of years until a couple days ago. Had to buy one for room/speaker/QRD modeling) and blew the picture up. They must be diffusers as well but designed with specific frequency crossovers/limits to work well with the speakers and other diffusers. Makes sense when can actually see them on a larger screen.
Not sure about the ones on each side of the surrounds but below them are fractal diffusers by the look of things.

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post #114 of 118 Old 10-04-2016, 09:24 AM
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Not sure about the ones on each side of the surrounds but below them are fractal diffusers by the look of things.
Yea they are slotted as well with absorption behind all of them. It's just KYDs preferred method of treatments.

The ones I was talking about are most likely very similar to the Flutterfree product which is for the upper end of the FR and slap echo. Just curious as to the methodology behind them really since the most rear surround closest to a boundary doesn't have them. And the room shouldn't have much of any problems that would require that product. Maybe it was just something they measured and thought could help in that particular location or could simply be overkill just to make sure nothing could have been needed after the fact.

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post #115 of 118 Old 08-12-2017, 10:48 AM
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[QUOTE=audiovideoholic;47243241]Yea they are slotted as well with absorption behind all of them. It's just KYD's preferred method of treatments.

Sorry for the delay in seeing and responding to this. I think audiovideoholic’s comment is well intended, but left by itself may lead to a distorted view of our actual process. To clarify, my "preferred method" is, well, a method rather than a product. I'm not sure how much discussion acoustic modeling has had on the forum, so some of you may need to bear with me here...

We bring our 3D CAD model into the engineering workstation, including the room’s…
  • Shape and dimensions,
  • Internal architectural features (seating platforms, columns, soffits, baffle wall, stage, doors etc.),
  • Seating elements,
  • Finishes (carpet, wall and ceiling fabric panels etc.,),
  • The makeup of its envelope (important because the mass and stiffness of the walls, ceiling etc. affect low-frequency behavior),
  • The intended Interior Acoustic Treatment Plan (what absorbers, diffusers, reflectors and hybrids at what locations and aiming angles), and
  • Virtual speakers at our intended locations and aiming angles. (It's critically important that these speakers have the same radiation patterns as the "real" ones; since <1% of all speaker manufacturers have usable data to offer, we generally have to ship the speakers to well-equipped third-party acoustic labs.)
We set up virtual speakers in the model to flood the room with sound rays (one million per speaker). Each one of these rays will likely have some fraction of its energy ricochet off hard surfaces, some absorbed, and some scattered/diffused. To envision these 3 basic mechanisms – reflection, absorption and diffusion – you might envision how, in the first case, a pool ball bounces off a side cushion, where the angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection (Snell’s Law). In the second case (absorption) the pool ball disappears into a corner pocket, i.e., its energy has been “removed from play.” In the last case (diffusion) the pool ball hits the side cushion and explodes into a little poof of sawdust sprayed in many directions.

A ray's lower-midrange energy might ricochet per Snell's law, the treble range might get absorbed, and the sensitive upper-midrange might be partially diffused and partially absorbed (the latter a common but unintended of not knowing how far the “acoustically transparent” fabric [say, Guilford FR-701] needs to be spaced away from the front of the diffuser).

The part that ricochets continues until it interacts with another surface, where it’s modified further, and so on. Each of the million rays will likely experience many wall and object hits before becoming perceptually inconsequential. Modeling even a single hit can be a complex affair: A single ray impinging on a diffuser can generate 20 smaller rays heading off in various directions depending on the diffuser’s specific properties, driven by its construction and the math behind it. The software tracks the 20 re-radiated rays and how each evolves spectrally, spatially and temporally.

At some point some of these rays pass through the space that will be filled with audience noggins so we position virtual microphones at those locations to “catch” the rays, allowing us to look at what’s going on at each head position – e.g. what frequencies are showing up, from which directions, at what levels, at what points in time relative to the direct sound. The data is organized and processed to show us basic energy ratios that are known to map well to how humans perceive sound. When we tune the acoustic treatment plan (or, say, the changing the speaker’s toe-in angle or swapping it out for a model with a rad-pat that’s friendlier to the basic playback geometry we’re dealing with), we take note of what happens to the energy ratios and the perceptual metrics (clarity, definition, speech intelligibility, envelopment, etc.) that go along with them.

For frequencies 4 times the Schroeder frequency and below (about 500Hz down to 5Hz in Rob’s case), we switch from ray- to wave-based techniques, i.e. finite element analysis (FEA). There are several octaves where the two different modeling strategies (ray vs. wave) overlap, and it takes some thinking and experience to make an accurate assessment of how to “merge” them to reflect what you’ll actually hear and measure once the room you’re designing is built, furnished, equipped and treated. Why spend so much time and money on the 125, 250 and 500Hz octave bands where the 2 very different techniques overlap? Because they’re the ones with the highest speech energy for adult speakers, male and female. (For reference, 250Hz is around the middle key on a piano keyboard.) If you can’t get the speech range clean and tight, you force the guy in the money seat to fumble around in the dark for the remote, hit the rewind button and replay the passage a couple of times trying to figure out what one of the five guys talking in the bar said he’s going to do to whom. The interruption typically takes everyone out of the movie.

The upshot is that my engineering team and I choose acoustic treatments based on the objective and subjective performance metrics I'm looking for at key listening positions. It's not about "liking" or "preferring" a brand or a model. We’re brand-agnostic. (In fact, in many cases, the modeling reveals that no company offers the treatments that will meet the requirements in a certain location. In such cases we may model, optimize, fabricate and test something that will.)

The intent of KYD’s modeling programs is not just to generate and compare reams of acoustical statistics on room layout possibilities A, B and C, but to use that computational power and the experience of my engineers to allow us to transcend the numbers and actually listen to hi-res binaural simulations of the total system – room, speakers, acoustic treatments and playback geometry – before we finalize and ship all those drawings.

Once that’s done, there are two Moments of Truth still to come: 1.) How compelling and moving the system is on opening night, when we’ve finished our final calibration and are presenting it to the homeowner; and 2.) How well our measurement curves etc. correspond to the curves we’d predicted months (or even, as in Rob’s case, years) before.

-Keith
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post #116 of 118 Old 08-14-2017, 09:28 AM
 
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It is indeed a wonderful methodology. Respectfully I would like to address the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, not in Rob's theater but because you seem so comfortable working with Meyers and JBL, compression driver technologies in general. Is the instrumentation detecting the sound smear of horns?

The methodology seems to give very little weight to the sound smear endemic to the MLSAA waterpilot evident compression drivers acceleration deceleration ratios. I find that once conditioned to the pro ribbon it is easier to pinpoint fatigue even for the best horns. What are your latest thoughts on this aspect of sound reproduction? I very respectfully would like to hear your angle.

Would you like to see more american manufacturers creating better alternatives to the compression driver? True innovations just not rehashed ip.
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post #117 of 118 Old 08-16-2017, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
It is indeed a wonderful methodology. Respectfully I would like to address the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, not in Rob's theater but because you seem so comfortable working with Meyers and JBL, compression driver technologies in general. Is the instrumentation detecting the sound smear of horns?

The methodology seems to give very little weight to the sound smear endemic to the MLSAA waterpilot evident compression drivers acceleration deceleration ratios. I find that once conditioned to the pro ribbon it is easier to pinpoint fatigue even for the best horns. What are your latest thoughts on this aspect of sound reproduction? I very respectfully would like to hear your angle.

Would you like to see more american manufacturers creating better alternatives to the compression driver? True innovations just not rehashed ip.
I agree, a discussion of "sound smear" -- whatever the phrase may refer to in physically quantifiable terms -- is not relevant to Rob's theater. I don't know what the online etiquette is, but ... maybe start a new thread on it?
-Keith
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post #118 of 118 Old 01-03-2020, 05:09 PM
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Im so sorry for bringing a dead thread back to life but I did a deep dive on this build and when I came to this last post, I was curious about Sound Smear, was a thread created to discuss this?

By the way, amazing, simply amazing... I am blown away and absolutely in love with this theater, from a design standpoint, an engineering standpoint, and aesthetic stand point. It checks every single box. Just wow!

Projector: BenQ w1500 + ES Sable 135" 16:9 Screen AVR: Marantz SR6011 ATMOS/DTSX + Unity 2ch Amp + Darbee 5000s Speakers: Polk Audio TSX550t (FL/FR), CS2 Series II (C), FXiA6 (SL/SR), Monitor40 Series II (RL/RR), TSx110B (Ceiling FL/FR RL/RR) LFE: (2) JL Audio 12" Subs + (2) Dayton 15" Subs + (2) ButtKicker LFE Arrangement: 7.1.4 Source: OPPO UDP-203 4k Bluray Player, HTPC, nVidia Shield TV Pro, Hauppauge OTA DVR
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