The Official 5000ES 4K Laser Sony Owner's Thread - Page 57 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1681 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 01:03 PM
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post #1682 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Side by side stack test 14' wide screen balls out 107.2fL


Yummy! How about some pictures of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit???

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post #1683 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Side by side stack test 14' wide screen balls out 107.2fL


Hi Art

How is the sharpness on actual screen , single vs stack ?

Thanks
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post #1684 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 03:54 PM
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Mani,
This is taking place in Florida. I've gotten the info second hand but it is extremely promising. The big deal, to this point, was being able to get the images aligned using a fine crosshatch in the corners using side by side projectors as I would like to use in my room.





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post #1685 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 05:23 PM
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After two long days of working on the 5000ES stack with Ken Whitcomb, there is only one thing to say. The effort is certainly worth the reward. It is F***ing incredible!

As good as the 5000ES is, seeing two stacked is like watching a 200" LED flat panel TV.

Living in mostly the digital world, since CRT projectors were a little before my time, I thought what can be so hard. I know I can align a digital projector perfectly, so I just do that twice and I'm done. Well not even close! I certainly couldn't of accomplished this task without Ken.

Even with Ken spending hours on alignment, it was only at about 90% perfect. The corners weren't perfect, and there was a visible loss of sharpness in those areas, especially with text. But yet the rest of the image looked so incredible, I literally couldn't sleep for thinking about how to improve the setup.

I started to go back through some old 5000ES Youtube videos, because I remember Sony having a side by side stack at one of the trade shows. Well it was CES2016, and that video helped fill in the missing piece of the puzzle. While listening to the Sony rep, he explained that the Sony could not only be stacked side by side or over and under, but actually both ways in a quad stack. AND... that Sony had created software to help perfectly align up to 4 units.

So after sending emails out to 5 Sony engineers early this am, they sent back the latest version of Projector Calibration Pro software. This software is the missing piece of the puzzle as it allows alignment of not only Red and Blue, but also of Green, and White (RGB all together). This allows you to perfectly setup one projector as the reference. You then get the second unit lined up as perfectly as possible to the reference. No tilting, no keystoning, no skewing, both must be perfect. This part is 80% of the job. Then you use the software to tweak the image of the second projector to perfectly align with the first. And with Ken in the driver's seat, the only touch-ups that were required was around the perimeter of the image. After this was complete, you absolutely can't tell the difference between one or two units. I spent an hour just having him cover and un-cover one projector as I looked at different 4K still images, and even with my nose to the screen, there is no visible loss of sharpness.

I absolutely am moving forward with a permanent install. This will require a fair amount of work to cut out a wall and install a header, built a larger platform, possibly relocate some electrical and even a plumbing vent. But even if I have to remove a large amount of sheetrock, I intend to get this done.

From the temporary position I could only fill 14' of the 17' wide screen. But with a 14' wide image on ST130 perf (so 1.2 gain) we had 107.2fL. So when I can put them in their permanent location I will have 67fL with ST130 perf or around 50fL with ST100 perf. With a single unit I get 33fL on my 17' wide ST130.

Viewing the stack was honestly like lifting a veil from over the lens. The worst part is going to be dis-assembling the stack and being without it until I can get the room modifications complete and can get Ken back on site.

All I can say is don't look at a stack setup unless you are prepared to move forward, because once you see it there's no turning back. As Art so eloquently told me today, "Once you stack, you never go back"

Pics coming....
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Last edited by ccool96; 12-04-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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post #1686 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 05:50 PM
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The Official 5000ES 4K Laser Sony Owner's Thread

These pictures don’t even begin relate what it’s like to see the stack in person. But here’s some pics for fun.



*** All images were taken hand-held with iPhone X so don't expect perfection ***



Also we didn't spend anytime on calibration as this was just a temporary install. So colors could be off and black levels may not be perfectly set. That wasn't our focus. Our only focus was getting two unit perfectly aligned and looking as good as a single unit with double the brightness. That goal was achieved.









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post #1687 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 06:26 PM
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Great work Chris and Ken !!!!
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post #1688 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 07:48 PM
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The Despicable Me menu and HDR white level pattern illustrate how bright the image actually is. Notice how they make the flat-black painted ceiling look gray!


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post #1689 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 07:49 PM
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Talking

Wow! Great work!

So Chris or Ken,

How big of a screen do you think this will support and still get the 'pop' of HDR?

I may have to do this.
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post #1690 of 3028 Old 12-04-2017, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
So Chris or Ken,

How big of a screen do you think this will support and still get the 'pop' of HDR?

I may have to do this.
I have been recommending 14’ wide as the maximum size for Studiotek 100 (1.0 gain or lower). Since 100 nits is the SDR mastering level, I think you could do up to 20’ wide (100% more area). Who will be first?


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post #1691 of 3028 Old 12-05-2017, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D6500Ken View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
So Chris or Ken,

How big of a screen do you think this will support and still get the 'pop' of HDR?

I may have to do this.
I have been recommending 14? wide as the maximum size for Studiotek 100 (1.0 gain or lower). Since 100 nits is the SDR mastering level, I think you could do up to 20? wide (100% more area). Who will be first?


Ken Whitcomb

Steve Bruzonsky will do it! Bring a second 5000 with you and call it Sony 10,000
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post #1692 of 3028 Old 12-05-2017, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Nice to see some people using the Apple TV4k. I for one am stunned at how good the image looks for a compressed streaming signal. You really have to pixel peep to notice a difference in the image versus a shiny disc. Audio is another story but technological improvements over time should help matters there! BTW you guys stacking these projectors are my "heros"!
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After two long days of working on the 5000ES stack with Ken Whitcomb, there is only one thing to say. The effort is certainly worth the reward. It is F***ing incredible!

As good as the 5000ES is, seeing two stacked is like watching a 200" LED flat panel TV.

Living in mostly the digital world, since CRT projectors were a little before my time, I thought what can be so hard. I know I can align a digital projector perfectly, so I just do that twice and I'm done. Well not even close! I certainly couldn't of accomplished this task without Ken.

Even with Ken spending hours on alignment, it was only at about 90% perfect. The corners weren't perfect, and there was a visible loss of sharpness in those areas, especially with text. But yet the rest of the image looked so incredible, I literally couldn't sleep for thinking about how to improve the setup.

I started to go back through some old 5000ES Youtube videos, because I remember Sony having a side by side stack at one of the trade shows. Well it was CES2016, and that video helped fill in the missing piece of the puzzle. While listening to the Sony rep, he explained that the Sony could not only be stacked side by side or over and under, but actually both ways in a quad stack. AND... that Sony had created software to help perfectly align up to 4 units.

So after sending emails out to 5 Sony engineers early this am, they sent back the latest version of Projector Calibration Pro software. This software is the missing piece of the puzzle as it allows alignment of not only Red and Blue, but also of Green, and White (RGB all together). This allows you to perfectly setup one projector as the reference. You then get the second unit lined up as perfectly as possible to the reference. No tilting, no keystoning, no skewing, both must be perfect. This part is 80% of the job. Then you use the software to tweak the image of the second projector to perfectly align with the first. And with Ken in the driver's seat, the only touch-ups that were required was around the perimeter of the image. After this was complete, you absolutely can't tell the difference between one or two units. I spent an hour just having him cover and un-cover one projector as I looked at different 4K still images, and even with my nose to the screen, there is no visible loss of sharpness.

I absolutely am moving forward with a permanent install. This will require a fair amount of work to cut out a wall and install a header, built a larger platform, possibly relocate some electrical and even a plumbing vent. But even if I have to remove a large amount of sheetrock, I intend to get this done.

From the temporary position I could only fill 14' of the 17' wide screen. But with a 14' wide image on ST130 perf (so 1.2 gain) we had 107.2fL. So when I can put them in their permanent location I will have 67fL with ST130 perf or around 50fL with ST100 perf. With a single unit I get 33fL on my 17' wide ST130.

Viewing the stack was honestly like lifting a veil from over the lens. The worst part is going to be dis-assembling the stack and being without it until I can get the room modifications complete and can get Ken back on site.

All I can say is don't look at a stack setup unless you are prepared to move forward, because once you see it there's no turning back. As Art so eloquently told me today, "Once you stack, you never go back"

Pics coming....
Unbelievable. I would love to see this in person! Congratulations to you, Ken and Art for raising the bar yet again for home cinema!
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post #1694 of 3028 Old 12-05-2017, 07:11 AM
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Unbelievable. I would love to see this in person! Congratulations to you, Ken and Art for raising the bar yet again for home cinema!

I hope you will be able to at my house fairly soon. One of those projectors in the test is mine.


Art
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post #1695 of 3028 Old 12-05-2017, 07:16 AM
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I hope you will be able to at my house fairly soon. One of those projectors in the test in mine.


Art
I am assuming it's the vertical stack?

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I am assuming it's the vertical stack?

No, horizontal . Vertical could be done but would have been more surgery to the room and would have been very tight for heads to clear the front row. The test showed that horizontal works great but effort made to set projectors touching thus the need to invert one.


Art
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The Official 5000ES 4K Laser Sony Owner's Thread

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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
No, horizontal . Vertical could be done but would have been more surgery to the room and would have been very tight for heads to clear the front row. The test showed that horizontal works great but effort made to set projectors touching thus the need to invert one.


Art


And same goes from my room as well. A vertical stack would potentially cause sight line issues with heads from people in front row. I can’t go any higher since in this room I have limited ceiling height and going lower would be problematic.

So side by side with units basically touching is the best way to proceed. Since the projector has equal amount of lens shift in all four directions, and with the lens perfectly centered, they preform identically regardless of right side up or upside down.

Sony recommends keeping the lens tight as possible. So with one right side up and the other upside down, you can keep all the connection on the outside left and outside right of the unit.

The only way you can even tell one is inverted is by the LED indicator light.


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And same goes from my room as well. A vertical stack would potentially cause site line issues with heads from people in front row. I can’t go any higher since in this room I have limited ceiling height and going lower would be problematic.

So side by side with units basically touching is the best way to proceed. Since the projector has equal amount of lens shift in all four directions, and with the lens perfectly centered, they preform identically regardless of right side up or upside down.

Sony recommends keeping the lens tight as possible. So with one right side up and the other upside down, you can keep all the connection on the outside left and outside right of the unit.

The only way you can even tell one is inverted is by the LED indicator light.


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Both of your rooms are amazing Chris! I think the color you have in the room (ceiling and back wall) you did the testing in may be the same I have in my theater. Sherwin Williams? I forget the name but it's like a mix of Black/Brown/grey?

I assume you will use a Lumagen or something for scaling then since lens shift would just cause more headaches? Are there any concerns about the projectors drifting at all then having to re-balance them periodically?
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The Official 5000ES 4K Laser Sony Owner's Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by baseball0618
Both of your rooms are amazing Chris! I think the color you have in the room (ceiling and back wall) you did the testing in may be the same I have in my theater. Sherwin Williams? I forget the name but it's like a mix of Black/Brown/grey?



I assume you will use a Lumagen or something for scaling then since lens shift would just cause more headaches? Are there any concerns about the projectors drifting at all then having to re-balance them periodically?


I can look back at the room colors but you are exactly right. It’s a mix of almost grey and beige. Can take on the look of either color depending on lighting.

Lens memories are out of the question with the stack so a lumagen is required to scale for 16:9. I think almost all the Vistascope setups Ken has done so far is already this way.

You are sacrificing some resolution for 16:9 but you have instantaneous aspect sifting and the brightness on screen is always constant. And you don’t have to deal with touching up from lens memories being less than perfect.

Originally I was concerned about warm-up time for alignment but so far have found that even running the units full power for hours and then letting the cool for hours and then powering back up that the mid-alignment is no worse with two units than it is with a single unit. Even standing at the screen it was barely noticeable, and certainly not noticeable at the seating area. But I would say in 5 mins they are back to perfect.

I was initially concerned about needing constant touch up, but based on Ken’s experience with years of a 1100ES stack, and now the 5000ES stack, I believe I could easily go 6 months without any adjustment. And potentially even a year. But Ideally for someone like Art, who lives relatively close to Ken, he could potentially do a touch-up 4 times a year just to make sure things are as perfect as possible.



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I'm setting up a new 5000 and have a question: Feeding 4k/hdr from a panasonic the image appears kind of dim on the films I've tried (80% laser power) and there seems to be some blotchiness/noise on skin that I can't seem to get rid of no matter what setting I try. Hard to describe the effect fully, but it looks like artifacts with blown out highlights. I've reset the panasonic and am definitely getting an HDR picture (via manually setting HDR10 in settings).

Any ideas? Brightness seems on par with the non-laser JVC unit I have so something must be up or it's some default setting that's wrong. This is on a 14.5' ST130 scope screen.

p.s. I've lost my old account but joined in high school when I imported a panasonic pj from Japan that was a rage on the forums back then. I remember a lot of us HT geeks in school would drool over the systems on here, especially Art's G90 stack. If the 5000ES stack happens it's a full circle with Sony at the helm again some ~15 years later!
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Make sure the Panasonic (900) Dynamic Contrast Slider is dialed up.
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The Official 5000ES 4K Laser Sony Owner's Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkrace;
I'm setting up a new 5000 and have a question: Feeding 4k/hdr from a panasonic the image appears kind of dim on the films I've tried (80% laser power) and there seems to be some blotchiness/noise on skin that I can't seem to get rid of no matter what setting I try. Hard to describe the effect fully, but it looks like artifacts with blown out highlights. I've reset the panasonic and am definitely getting an HDR picture (via manually setting HDR10 in settings).



Any ideas? Brightness seems on par with the non-laser JVC unit I have so something must be up or it's some default setting that's wrong. This is on a 14.5' ST130 scope screen.



p.s. I've lost my old account but joined in high school when I imported a panasonic pj from Japan that was a rage on the forums back then. I remember a lot of us HT geeks in school would drool over the systems on here, especially Art's G90 stack. If the 5000ES stack happens it's a full circle with Sony at the helm again some ~15 years later!

I would check the (HDR Contrast) slider on the 5000ES. The normal contrast slider for SDR just says contrast, but when you are playing HDR it changes to “HDR Contrast”

HDR Contrast defaults to 50. I would move that up to 70-80. That will bring up the average picture brightness level significantly.

And the Panasonic also has a dynamic contrast slider. Some people will adjust it up around +4.

There is no “correct” setting at this point. You just have to decide how much of the “specular highlights” to trade off for increased APL.





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Last edited by ccool96; 12-06-2017 at 06:55 AM.
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post #1703 of 3028 Old 12-06-2017, 05:54 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I would check the (HDR Contrast) slider on the 5000ES. The normal contrast slider for SDR just says contrast, but when you are playing HDR it changes to “HDR Contrast”

HDR Contrast defaults to 50. I would move that up to 70-80. That will bring up the average picture brightness level significantly. There is no “correct” setting at this point. You just have to decide how much of the “spectacular highlights” to trade off for increased APL.
Hello ccool96,

I can tell you a bit more about this "HDR constrast" slider of the 5000ES :

-> Changing its value from 45 to MAX, doesn't change anything on the projector peak luminance reading (nits) --> this peak luminance only rely on the Laser Power setting (%).

As per my finding when I played with R. Masciola's HDR10 UHD test patterns :

->If HDR contrast is set to 42 value, the peak luminance delivered by the PJ is displayed with 10000nits maximum value (level used for UHD disc mastering),

->If HDR contrast is set to 66 value, the peak luminance delivered by the PJ is displayed with 2000nits maximum value (level used for UHD disc mastering),

->If HDR contrast is set to 94 value, the peak luminance delivered by the PJ is displayed with 1000nits maximum value (level used for UHD disc mastering),

So, "in theory", we should set this HDR Contrast slider value according to the peak nits luminance used in the mastering of the UHD disc we play : this is not very conveniant as the requested information is most of the time difficult to get

John

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My dedicated HT room !
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The Official 5000ES 4K Laser Sony Owner's Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHWman;
Hello ccool96,



I can tell you a bit more about this "HDR constrast" slider of the 5000ES :



-> Changing its value from 45 to MAX, doesn't change anything on the projector peak luminance reading (nits) --> this peak luminance only rely on the Laser Power setting (%).



As per my finding when I played with R. Masciola's HDR10 UHD test patterns :



->If HDR contrast is set to 42 value, the peak luminance delivered by the PJ is displayed with 10000nits maximum value (level used for UHD disc mastering),



->If HDR contrast is set to 66 value, the peak luminance delivered by the PJ is displayed with 2000nits maximum value (level used for UHD disc mastering),



->If HDR contrast is set to 94 value, the peak luminance delivered by the PJ is displayed with 1000nits maximum value (level used for UHD disc mastering),



So, "in theory", we should set this HDR Contrast slider value according to the peak nits luminance used in the mastering of the UHD disc we play : this is not very conveniant as the requested information is most of the time difficult to get



John


Agreed completely with everything you said. I also agree the HDR contrast slider doesn’t effect “peak luminance of HDR” or the total light output of the projector.

But it absolutely will bring up the “Average Picture Level” brightness of HDR content, by adjusting the clipping point.

Someone with a large screen who doesn’t have much head room for “highlights” can increase the HDR slider. That will lower the clipping point and in turn bring the “average picture level” brightness up significantly.

Running any HDR Blu-ray - you can clearly see a huge difference in “average picture level” brightness by changing the slider. The difference between 42 and 94 is substantial.

As this slider is basically tone-mapping HDR to better match the capability of the specific setup.

Everything is a trade off.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Last edited by ccool96; 12-06-2017 at 06:42 AM.
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post #1705 of 3028 Old 12-06-2017, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D6500Ken View Post
I have been recommending 14’ wide as the maximum size for Studiotek 100 (1.0 gain or lower). Since 100 nits is the SDR mastering level, I think you could do up to 20’ wide (100% more area). Who will be first?


Ken Whitcomb
I had been thinking of 15' or even 16' wide, but went 14' thanks to Ken's recommendation. And good thing I did. My Vistascope 2:40 14' wide with Velux borders barely fit on my front wall, as there are some Michael Green acoustic treatments at the very corners of the wall (side and top)! Thanks Ken. Can't wait for his calibration next Tues/[email protected]@@ (Although looks awful good right now!)

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post #1706 of 3028 Old 12-06-2017, 07:54 AM
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[quote:
Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
So Chris or Ken,

How big of a screen do you think this will support and still get the 'pop' of HDR?

I may have to do this.]

[I have been recommending 14? wide as the maximum size for Studiotek 100 (1.0 gain or lower). Since 100 nits is the SDR mastering level, I think you could do up to 20? wide (100% more area). Who will be first?


Ken Whitcomb]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post
Steve Bruzonsky will do it! Bring a second 5000 with you and call it Sony 10,000
Mark, if you will be my financier to mod and built out my home theatre room to accomodate a 20' wide screen and the second 5000 and the extra calibration, then you are [email protected]@@ Ha! Ha! Mani will likely to the stack next year and keeps tryin' to talk me into it! I wish I could! Just like I wish I could be a rock star! "You Can't Always Get What You Want!" (The Rolling Stones). Though a 14' wide 2:40 Vistascope Snowmatte screen with a VW5000 projector is nothing to sneeze at! A lot better than Burnstein's stacking of two bulb projectors!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!

Last edited by Steve Bruzonsky; 12-06-2017 at 08:03 AM.
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post #1707 of 3028 Old 12-06-2017, 08:53 AM
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Yea, the 20' wide is sounding better and better.


Have to wait till after the Christmas party on the 15th to get started.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Yea, the 20' wide is sounding better and better.


Have to wait till after the Christmas party on the 15th to get started.


Art
Ha! Could you even do a 20' wide in your room??

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
[quote:
Originally Posted by Ted C View Post
So Chris or Ken,

How big of a screen do you think this will support and still get the 'pop' of HDR?

I may have to do this.]

[I have been recommending 14? wide as the maximum size for Studiotek 100 (1.0 gain or lower). Since 100 nits is the SDR mastering level, I think you could do up to 20? wide (100% more area). Who will be first?


Ken Whitcomb]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post
Steve Bruzonsky will do it! Bring a second 5000 with you and call it Sony 10,000
Mark, if you will be my financier to mod and built out my home theatre room to accomodate a 20' wide screen and the second 5000 and the extra calibration, then you are [email protected]@@[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG] Ha! Ha! Mani will likely to the stack next year and keeps tryin' to talk me into it! I wish I could! Just like I wish I could be a rock star! "You Can't Always Get What You Want!" (The Rolling Stones). Though a 14' wide 2:40 Vistascope Snowmatte screen with a VW5000 projector is nothing to sneeze at! A lot better than Burnstein's stacking of two bulb projectors![IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
I?ll give you $10.00

mark
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post #1710 of 3028 Old 12-06-2017, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Ha! Could you even do a 20' wide in your room??

No you are right 19'6" is maxed out and requires the screen from the UK with more narrow frame and motor mechanism. I had hoped no one would come with a tape.


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