The Official 5000ES 4K Laser Sony Owner's Thread - Page 84 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2491 of 2789 Old 02-26-2019, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Here are links for Furman Elite 15pfi and 20pfi with power factor. For 15 amp and 20 amp circuits respectively, though the 20 amp one will work on a 15 amp circuit so long as the draw is held within 15 amps!



https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Elite-...A2XGE4CX5AV74X

https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Elite-...s=Furman+elite

Amazon often has a return policy so check the item and seller and print info!
Ordered and coming soon.

Thanks for your help.
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post #2492 of 2789 Old 02-26-2019, 08:03 PM
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Big news for those of us VW5000ES owners who also have the Lumagen Radiance Pro re dynamic HDR tone mapping!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Dynamic Tone Mapping should be released Wedensday (I will be testing the release candidate tonight). I have tested the prerelease version and have watched many hours of HDR and viewing extended portions of perhaps 10 movies (tough job I have 😊). I think the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping looks excellent and I see a visible improvement versus the Static Tone Mapping of earlier releases, especially for source material that incorrectly reports MaxCLL. I did not see any “less than optimal” decisions made by the Dynamic Tone Mapping in my viewing. So, I think this will be a good release to post for everyone to test.

Of course, there may be further improvement possible. Once you have the Dynamic Tone Mapping, if you see something you think might be improved, email lumagen.com support with the player/streamer model, movie/program and time stamp. Include a description of what you are seeing and what you think might be done to improve it. There is a chance we can improve the scene you point out. However, understand it might be intrinsic to dynamically calculated MaxCLL.

Dynamic Tone Mapping can change the effective MaxCLL on any frame, but it only makes sense to change it at the beginning of a scene. Changing it in the middle of the scene would cause a visible change in areas of the picture that should not be change during the scene. So, the Radiance Pro works by changing the effective MaxCLL on a scene by scene basis.

You enable Dynamic Tone Mapping in the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->DynamicLevel menu. Note: Dynamic Tone Mapping is disabled by default (at least for now). The menu looks like:

Enabled: No, Yes
Level: 1 to 8
For Input Current or All
For Memory Current or All

As noted in the DynamicLevel menu you can press the “ALT” key while the menu is active if you want to show an abbreviated menu at the bottom of the screen, so it is out of the way for testing different “Level” values and off versus on. Press OK to get back to the normal menu screen.

The “Level” parameter adjusts how much the Static MaxCLL affects the calculation. Level = 1 uses the HDR10 Static MaxCLL in conjunction with the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. This acts to moderate changes in the MaxCLL value used for each frame. The effect that Static MaxCLL has on the result is reduced as Level is increased.

We do not yet have a recommendation on the best setting for “Level” but I expect it will be in the 5 to 8 range. Using Level = 5 will use a bit of the Static MaxCLL as a sort of “pivot point” to moderate how much change is allowed while still allowing the calculated MaxCLL to significantly change the transfer function on a scene by scene basis. Level = 8 may end up being preferred since it effectively uses only calculated MaxCLL.

As always, if you have a bug report, please email lumagen.com support. Include as much information as you can (e.g. source device, movie/program, timestamp, how to reproduce, etc.). You can also post here if you wish, but we see bug reports emailed to us quickly and may not see bug report here for some time.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 If I recommend a dealer It will be a person to person recommendation and if a dealer tells you I refer to them don’t believe it! ! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade awaiting July/August 2019!
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post #2493 of 2789 Old 02-26-2019, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Big news for those of us VW5000ES owners who also have the Lumagen Radiance Pro re dynamic HDR tone mapping!!!
Great news, I've been looking so forward to this release
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post #2494 of 2789 Old 02-27-2019, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Big news for those of us VW5000ES owners who also have the Lumagen Radiance Pro re dynamic HDR tone mapping!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Dynamic Tone Mapping should be released Wedensday (I will be testing the release candidate tonight). I have tested the prerelease version and have watched many hours of HDR and viewing extended portions of perhaps 10 movies (tough job I have &#x1f60a. I think the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping looks excellent and I see a visible improvement versus the Static Tone Mapping of earlier releases, especially for source material that incorrectly reports MaxCLL. I did not see any “less than optimal” decisions made by the Dynamic Tone Mapping in my viewing. So, I think this will be a good release to post for everyone to test.

Of course, there may be further improvement possible. Once you have the Dynamic Tone Mapping, if you see something you think might be improved, email lumagen.com support with the player/streamer model, movie/program and time stamp. Include a description of what you are seeing and what you think might be done to improve it. There is a chance we can improve the scene you point out. However, understand it might be intrinsic to dynamically calculated MaxCLL.

Dynamic Tone Mapping can change the effective MaxCLL on any frame, but it only makes sense to change it at the beginning of a scene. Changing it in the middle of the scene would cause a visible change in areas of the picture that should not be change during the scene. So, the Radiance Pro works by changing the effective MaxCLL on a scene by scene basis.

You enable Dynamic Tone Mapping in the MENU->Input->Options->HDR Setup->DynamicLevel menu. Note: Dynamic Tone Mapping is disabled by default (at least for now). The menu looks like:

Enabled: No, Yes
Level: 1 to 8
For Input Current or All
For Memory Current or All

As noted in the DynamicLevel menu you can press the “ALT” key while the menu is active if you want to show an abbreviated menu at the bottom of the screen, so it is out of the way for testing different “Level” values and off versus on. Press OK to get back to the normal menu screen.

The “Level” parameter adjusts how much the Static MaxCLL affects the calculation. Level = 1 uses the HDR10 Static MaxCLL in conjunction with the dynamically calculated MaxCLL. This acts to moderate changes in the MaxCLL value used for each frame. The effect that Static MaxCLL has on the result is reduced as Level is increased.

We do not yet have a recommendation on the best setting for “Level” but I expect it will be in the 5 to 8 range. Using Level = 5 will use a bit of the Static MaxCLL as a sort of “pivot point” to moderate how much change is allowed while still allowing the calculated MaxCLL to significantly change the transfer function on a scene by scene basis. Level = 8 may end up being preferred since it effectively uses only calculated MaxCLL.

As always, if you have a bug report, please email lumagen.com support. Include as much information as you can (e.g. source device, movie/program, timestamp, how to reproduce, etc.). You can also post here if you wish, but we see bug reports emailed to us quickly and may not see bug report here for some time.
Great news
Let us know when available to download
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post #2495 of 2789 Old 02-27-2019, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
Is it just me finding those improvements pretty lame considering how long that one took and the lack of anything else useful (not having an AppleTV)?
I agree too ! Nothing really improved on HDR side (lack of use the MAXCLL/FALL values in the HDMI 4K incoming stream to adjust the HDR contrast for example). So, pretty useless FW upgrade for my need. If I still do it, does it resets the calibrations parameters changes I've made ?
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post #2496 of 2789 Old 02-27-2019, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
Great news
Let us know when available to download

Once its available it will be announced in the following thread here at AVS (and also posted on the Lumagen website):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...eries-133.html

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 If I recommend a dealer It will be a person to person recommendation and if a dealer tells you I refer to them don’t believe it! ! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade awaiting July/August 2019!
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post #2497 of 2789 Old 02-27-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnHWman View Post
I agree too ! Nothing really improved on HDR side (lack of use the MAXCLL/FALL values in the HDMI 4K incoming stream to adjust the HDR contrast for example). So, pretty useless FW upgrade for my need. If I still do it, does it resets the calibrations parameters changes I've made ?
John
Now someone else (Ken Whitcomb) did my calibration and saved the settings just in case. But I did the VW5000ES firmware upgrade and have watched "A Star is Born" and "Bohemian Rhapsody" since and WOW talk about great movies, picture and sound - if Ken's calibration settings had been erased certainly I would have noticed because the picture was pristine like looking through the camera lens!

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post #2498 of 2789 Old 02-27-2019, 08:40 AM
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Great news thanks for the info Steve !

Art
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post #2499 of 2789 Old 02-27-2019, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Big news for those of us VW5000ES owners who also have the Lumagen Radiance Pro re dynamic HDR tone mapping!!!
Here's the Radiance Pro dynamic HDR tone mapping firmware upgrade, which came out 2-27 evening!

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates
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post #2500 of 2789 Old 02-28-2019, 05:57 PM
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Nice... whatever happened to the 'as director intended' some of us veterans chased for years...
The audio 'Atmos' depends on room compromises and whatever sounds better to the owner??? I have 28 speakers and you have 9 and you have VOG etc...
And the way the picture looks is decided by the programmer at Lumagen?? Not what the director intended
It is really now whatever shakes your tree and you think is awesome..
Sorry for posting this negative post - dunno what to say.
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post #2501 of 2789 Old 02-28-2019, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Nice... whatever happened to the 'as director intended' some of us veterans chased for years...
The audio 'Atmos' depends on room compromises and whatever sounds better to the owner??? I have 28 speakers and you have 9 and you have VOG etc...
And the way the picture looks is decided by the programmer at Lumagen?? Not what the director intended
It is really now whatever shakes your tree and you think is awesome..
Sorry for posting this negative post - dunno what to say.
SERIOUSLY YOU don’t have a Radiance Pro and haven’t kept up on its updates particularly HDR tone mapping. I watch 4k Blu rays w motion flow off and reality creation off and my picture is pristine! Do you? The new dynamic part of HDR tone mapping simply varies dynamically per scene and makes the picture more accurate as the director intended!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 If I recommend a dealer It will be a person to person recommendation and if a dealer tells you I refer to them don’t believe it! ! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade awaiting July/August 2019!
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post #2502 of 2789 Old 02-28-2019, 06:25 PM
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The new dynamic part of HDR tone mapping simply varies dynamically per scene and makes the picture more accurate as the director intended!
Really??
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post #2503 of 2789 Old 02-28-2019, 06:33 PM
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Really??
Yes. LG OLEDs as of 2018 do dynamic tone mapping. Others will follow. Sony and other projector mfgs are behind the curve when it comes to HDR tone mapping

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post #2504 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Yes. LG OLEDs as of 2018 do dynamic tone mapping. Others will follow. Sony and other projector mfgs are behind the curve when it comes to HDR tone mapping
I suspect we'll see it start appearing in source devices such as the Panny UHD blu-ray players in a year or two also.
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post #2505 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Nice... whatever happened to the 'as director intended' some of us veterans chased for years...
The audio 'Atmos' depends on room compromises and whatever sounds better to the owner??? I have 28 speakers and you have 9 and you have VOG etc...
And the way the picture looks is decided by the programmer at Lumagen?? Not what the director intended
It is really now whatever shakes your tree and you think is awesome..
Sorry for posting this negative post - dunno what to say.

Do we really have a way of knowing what the director intended? If you think about it , all projectors have different algorithms for processing metadata. What they do with dynamic dimming, gamma and colors are unique to the projector or TV it is connected to unless they are 100% passthrough. For HDR the Lumagen Pro I have certainly has greatly improved HDR over everything else available up to this point , the UB900 and MadVr apparently are a close second . These improved HDR solutions may not be what the director intended but the results using the same , for me at least appear vastly improved over what I see without. Directors do not always nail scenes either, with the accuracy of current optics and 4K I'm often very distracted at how poor focus often is, hard to get away with soft focus these days, contrast would be no different. At least contrast can be improved a little I suppose and maybe the players will allow enough freedom to adjust to taste. Regardless of what any director intends, we all possess different tastes, having the ability to adjust would be wonderful.


BTW Ash, I may now have a case of speaker envy . Will have to add a few more in the new theater to keep up, even if they are not active, it will look impressive . Don't need the VOG either, I'm married, so have an even higher authority .

Dedicated Theater: Sony VPL VW 885ES , Panamorph DCR & ISCO III L Anamorphic Lens, Draper TecVision XT1800X Screen, 2.40:1 134" diagonal curved , Denon AVR-X8500 , 9.2.6 Atmos, Panasonic UB900, Oppo 203, Lumagen Pro 4440 , (3) Paradigm CI Elite E7-L+C+R fronts, , (2) CI Pro P80-IW Rear, (2) Paradigm SA-ADP In-wall Surround, (6) SIG-1.5R-30 v.3 In-Ceiling, Subwoofers: (2) SVS SB-16 Ultra , SVS PC13-Ultra .
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post #2506 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 08:24 AM
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The director intends how the picture looks on whatever display the movie is mixed on. Most pro displays are 1000 nits. I've have some movies that were done with 4000 nits display. Yet my projector, measured at around 29 footlamberts, is about 100 nits, similar to a Dolby Cinema. HDR tone mapping is a necessity for all projectors, and even for OLED and QLED tvs unless its one that has at least 1000 nits. Tone mapping algoriths seem to improve each year at least for OLED and QLED, though for projectors not so much. Therefore either a 4k blu ray player or other device (Radiance Pro) which does tone mapping is particularly essential for a projector. And too many 4k discs or sources have incorrect info re the nits of the display used - and dynamic tone mapping for the Radiance analyzes the picture and can set this correctly on a per scene basis. Thus the potential for a better picture closer to what the director intended.

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post #2507 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Nice... whatever happened to the 'as director intended' some of us veterans chased for years...
The audio 'Atmos' depends on room compromises and whatever sounds better to the owner??? I have 28 speakers and you have 9 and you have VOG etc...
And the way the picture looks is decided by the programmer at Lumagen?? Not what the director intended
It is really now whatever shakes your tree and you think is awesome..
Sorry for posting this negative post - dunno what to say.
I have "VOG"! Must be my Medicare age, but what is "VOG"? Is it video of the Gods? Or a sexually transmitted computer virus from watching to much you know what on the big screen?

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 If I recommend a dealer It will be a person to person recommendation and if a dealer tells you I refer to them don’t believe it! ! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade awaiting July/August 2019!
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post #2508 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 10:21 AM
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Hey guys,

Just curious - how noisy is the 5000ES in actual use? Do you all put it in hush boxes, in separate projector rooms, or have it open?

Are there recommended ways to close it off from the rest of the room and cool it properly?

Cheers
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post #2509 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Hey guys,

Just curious - how noisy is the 5000ES in actual use? Do you all put it in hush boxes, in separate projector rooms, or have it open?

Are there recommended ways to close it off from the rest of the room and cool it properly?

Cheers
While certainly quieter than something like the jet engine RS4500, you probably wouldn't; run it in higher laser levels in the theater IMO. Mine is located in my office behind my theater, and I have that room climate controlled.

When my theater was set up differently and it was in room I noticed the fans during quieter passages and it bothered me.

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 16 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
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post #2510 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Hey guys,

Just curious - how noisy is the 5000ES in actual use? Do you all put it in hush boxes, in separate projector rooms, or have it open?

Are there recommended ways to close it off from the rest of the room and cool it properly?

Cheers
Same here separate room. Although my Kaleidescape server is as loud or louder so it isn't in my main rack but in the room with the projectors.


Art
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post #2511 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Hey guys,

Just curious - how noisy is the 5000ES in actual use? Do you all put it in hush boxes, in separate projector rooms, or have it open?

Are there recommended ways to close it off from the rest of the room and cool it properly?

Cheers
Same here separate room. Although my Kaleidescape server is as loud or louder so it isn't in my main rack but in the room with the projectors.


Art
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post #2512 of 2789 Old 03-01-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Same here separate room. Although my Kaleidescape server is as loud or louder so it isn't in my main rack but in the room with the projectors.


Art
Must be a Premier Server? My Terra (Encore) is pretty quiet. SJ
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post #2513 of 2789 Old 03-02-2019, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Hey guys,
Just curious - how noisy is the 5000ES in actual use? Do you all put it in hush boxes, in separate projector rooms, or have it open?
Are there recommended ways to close it off from the rest of the room and cool it properly?
Cheers
Hi Johnny,

Same for me, Pj at the back of main HT room in a separated small area :



Dedicated fresh intake Air (from HT room to the PJ room) :




Dedicated exhaust hot air outside the PJ room :





Since my back seats in HT room are very close to 5000ES optics, this is the only way to go with the noise of this PJ (especially during HDR10 movies playback) :



John

Home theater enthusiast for over 20 years !
My dedicated HT room !
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post #2514 of 2789 Old 03-02-2019, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Nice... whatever happened to the 'as director intended' some of us veterans chased for years...
The audio 'Atmos' depends on room compromises and whatever sounds better to the owner??? I have 28 speakers and you have 9 and you have VOG etc...
And the way the picture looks is decided by the programmer at Lumagen?? Not what the director intended
It is really now whatever shakes your tree and you think is awesome..
Sorry for posting this negative post - dunno what to say.
I'm sorry man, but this post just shows that you have a lack of understanding of how HDR works in regards to displays.

The type of tone mapping yields a result much more close to how the director, or colorist intended than dumb tone mapping or a static curve. HDR is generated to support displays that can handle 1000-10000 nits. Unfortunately, when you have a projector that can only max out around 100-200 nits, there's no possible way to yield a picture that looks like the mastering engineer intended. This is the problem that this type of tone mapping solves. It maps each frame by analyzing it and the result is as close to what the intended output is - as far as the display is capable. It doesn't change from the director's intent. It fixes the problem that the low nit displays cannot display the director's intent.

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post #2515 of 2789 Old 03-02-2019, 05:47 AM
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Thanks very much for the replies guys, that helps me a lot.

I think I'm going to design in ducting to feed cool air in from an air conditioning fancoil, and another duct to exhaust the hot air outside. I'll add a fan on the outside part to suck the exhaust air through, in case just moving the air is enough and I don't need the aircon on all the time.

Don't know which projector I'll end up with but hopefully this will give me flexibility and freedom to upgrade in future.

The main problem I have with this projector is actually price, now. In the US, I understand it's $60,000 RRP (approx 45,000 GBP). In the UK, it's £65,000. Ouch...
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post #2516 of 2789 Old 03-02-2019, 05:55 AM
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Must be a Premier Server? My Terra (Encore) is pretty quiet. SJ
That is correct.

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post #2517 of 2789 Old 03-02-2019, 12:44 PM
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Hey guys,

Just curious - how noisy is the 5000ES in actual use? Do you all put it in hush boxes, in separate projector rooms, or have it open?

Are there recommended ways to close it off from the rest of the room and cool it properly?

Cheers
My 5000 is in my theater without issue. My 5000 lens is 6’ behind and 6’ above me. That does not mean it will work from a db and heat standpoint in every theater. My room is very large with a cathedral ceiling. The angular ceiling and curtains to the rear of the projector likely cause the db level to be lower than it otherwise would be. The 5000 db really starts to ramp up at 80 on the laser setting. Still manageable in my room. I rarely go above 85, unless a particular HDR movie requires it. I do not listen at reference levels in my theater, mostly moderate levels and still have no problem with the fan noise.

As far as heat goes, same deal. After 80 the 5000 starts to produce much more heat. It is doable in my theater, but at some point I may add supplemental cooling.

If I had the option to locate the 5000 in an adjacent room, I would. If not, it doesn’t mean it should be completely ruled out. At that point look at room acoustics around the projector to see if it will tame or exacerbate the db level as well as the distance of the cooling fans to the listener. As far as heat production, that is also dependent on nearby returns to the 5000 and the amount of supplies and returns in the room. There is a formula for this to calculate heat load. The btu produced by the equipment must be looked at vs the tons of cooling in the ac system. Case by case... like everything else in this hobby.
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Last edited by G-Rex; 03-03-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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post #2518 of 2789 Old 03-02-2019, 06:18 PM
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I'm sorry man, but this post just shows that you have a lack of understanding of how HDR works in regards to displays.

The type of tone mapping yields a result much more close to how the director, or colorist intended than dumb tone mapping or a static curve. HDR is generated to support displays that can handle 1000-10000 nits. Unfortunately, when you have a projector that can only max out around 100-200 nits, there's no possible way to yield a picture that looks like the mastering engineer intended. This is the problem that this type of tone mapping solves. It maps each frame by analyzing it and the result is as close to what the intended output is - as far as the display is capable. It doesn't change from the director's intent. It fixes the problem that the low nit displays cannot display the director's intent.
Ash is simply trying to justify whe he hasn’t bought a Radiance Pro! He spent all his $$$ on the DCR lens he keeps telling me to buy! 😜😝🤣
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post #2519 of 2789 Old 03-02-2019, 08:46 PM
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Ash is simply trying to justify whe he hasn’t bought a Radiance Pro! He spent all his $$$ on the DCR lens he keeps telling me to buy! 😜😝🤣
You are right AND he is right. Both of you should have a Lumagen and a DCR lens.

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post #2520 of 2789 Old 03-02-2019, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
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Ash is simply trying to justify whe he hasn’t bought a Radiance Pro! He spent all his $$$ on the DCR lens he keeps telling me to buy! 😜😝🤣
You are right AND he is right. Both of you should have a Lumagen and a DCR lens.
I think Ash’s calibrator has convinced him that having Lumagen in the video chain degrades the picture . I respectfully disagree with his calibrator . Ash , you will be hard pressed to find a single person who uses Lumagen pro , well calibrated , with Sony 5000 , who will say that he/she prefers HDR without Lumagen in the chain . I use Lumagen , Sony and ISCO DLP 1.25x lens and won’t have it any other way , no matter what any calibrator or video guru says . Eventually it’s my eyes that have to decide .

And your director’s intent argument is moot point as he masters the video on a 1000- 4000 nit monitor and your 100-200 not projector / screen combo , will not display his intent with or without Lumagen . But Lumagen will get you closer .

Last edited by mani; 03-02-2019 at 09:29 PM.
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