Official JVC RS4500/Z1 Owner's Thread - Page 116 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3451 of 3537 Old 10-07-2019, 01:07 PM
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Oh no!! Am I the last one here to still be using the Sovereigns??
Trust me ...it was one of the hardest decisions i have made!!!

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post #3452 of 3537 Old 10-07-2019, 01:15 PM
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Trust me ...it was one of the hardest decisions i have made!!!

Pics.....Packing up to load for the new owner...

Reminds of when I sold my 550 pounds each Dunlavy SC-VIs and shipped the to Greece !!!
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post #3453 of 3537 Old 10-07-2019, 02:02 PM
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Trust me ...it was one of the hardest decisions i have made!!!

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Good Lord - those are beasts !

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
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post #3454 of 3537 Old 10-08-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
Blake,



I am what I think would be termed a, End-User, meaning I don't fall into the camp that can and do address what your concerns are on a more professional level.

I Do-Not have that ability .......



What I can share with you about the RS4500 is the following in layman terms only.

From all the different projectors I have personally owned for like 30 plus years.

And they were not cheap units for sure.

The last 3 or 4 were all Runco 1080p units.

And those were in the $20K US Dollars range just for the projector not including Set-Up and here locally Taxes.



Maybe if I just post like we were sitting with one another at a restaurant having coffee will work better for both of us.

Speaking only for myself I will be as BLUNT as this AVS Internet Site will allow me to be per there guidelines.

If you knew me you would know when a person ask me a legit question they will get a Matter-of-Fact-Response from me.



I personally was "Scared-to-Death" when looking at two primarily different laser projectors to replace the last Runco VX-11d.

And when I say to you that I did research .............

I spend more time researching something than the hours most people spend working Full-Time.

I am Anal and I will keep researching until IMHO I have exhausted All avenues that provide information on a product like in this case the RS4500.

Being retired since 2008 I can and will spend the time to make sure I don't make a "Mistake" if at all humanly possible.



Moving forward with what I would really want to know if I was asking someone what your asking.

The RS4500 when I had it 1st installed and the tech sized the image to my 16x9 screen.

I was 100% Totally-Blown-Away buddy.

It was without any doubt Super-Bad-Ass !!!

And in my case as I said above I was Scared-to-Death that it might not be an Honest-to-Goodness improvement from the Runco ???

Well, as soon as all the Sconce lights were totally turned-off in the H/T and the picture was the right size to the screen.

And keep in mind the techs that did the install were told by me not to even think/consider changing any adjustments.

All FEARS went away instantly as I said above and I knew right then I did make the right decision.

The picture when we went to YouTube and viewed 4K HDR content were to me BEYOND-AWESOME !!!

And believe me there was No-Issue with Piss-Poor Colors !!!

I should probably mention I don't have any Lumagen, or other product to do Calibrating.

I also don't have any additional lens like the Panamorph.

What I do have to improve the overall picture was Chad B. from Ohio that did both Audio & Video Custom-Calibrations.

But ............

Keep in mind what I said above was simply when the RS4500 was initially installed out of the box before Chad B. did his thing.



Speaking of DTM from my perspective ..........

I am hopeful that JVC will be able to add that for sure like anyone would that's spent the monies we have for the RS4500.

However, and I know you are going to have to just believe me in what I say and have some level of trust to a stranger on an internet site.

If JVC Never-Ever does add because they simply can't the DTM.

The RS4500 on a more Modest-Screen-Size like my 123" 16x9 Stewart Firehawk is not going to suffer any I'll effects at all.

It would be great to have it but to me it's not at all a necessity !!!

I'm saying Blake if you came here in person and saw with your own eyes my H/T with the RS4500 showing 4K Ultra HDR you would instantly be {Smiling} and Totally-Blown-Away IMHO buddy.

It's that Bad-Ass I promise you ............



If I had known for a FACT that the RS4500 Laser projector was what it is I would have gotten a unit a hell of a lot sooner buddy.



I sincerely hope the above helps you with what you really want to know from an End-User.

You are welcome to come here in person and see for yourself if you like.

I just looked and I see your Location is: Edmonton, AB, Canada


































Terry Honaker


Thanks for the insight. I have been told the NX9 is “more advanced” technology with 8k eshift, better contrast, quieter and now will have the HDR DTM (I emailed JVC and they still can’t confirm if rs4500 will get it ). But as you say the laser source and perhaps higher quality optical system are very attractive. I am sure it looks amazing.

I definitely would come by your place to see it (thanks for the invite) but the trip is pretty far being up here in Canada !


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post #3455 of 3537 Old 10-09-2019, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by blake View Post
Thanks for the insight. I have been told the NX9 is “more advanced” technology with 8k eshift, better contrast, quieter and now will have the HDR DTM (I emailed JVC and they still can’t confirm if rs4500 will get it ). But as you say the laser source and perhaps higher quality optical system are very attractive. I am sure it looks amazing.

I definitely would come by your place to see it (thanks for the invite) but the trip is pretty far being up here in Canada !
I think the 8K eshift looks a little like sharpening processing but very subtle. If it's on or off, you wouldnt' know unless you toggled it and watched it toggle. If you leave the room and come back you won't notice either way. I think 8K eshift is more marketing than actually useful.

I know the NX9 supposedly has the better contrast. But there are circumstances where the RS4500 outperforms it in my opinion. Plus there's a huge advantage to dynamic laser dimming vs moving dynamic iris.

However, if you're going to be inputting direct HDR signal and not doing any pretone mapping via madVR or lumagen, the NX9 with its firmware update might be a better choice. I know Terry said above you wont miss it, but he doesn't know what he's missing. I don't think he has ever seen dynamic tone mapping in action. To me, the question isn't whether or not you'll want dynamic tone mapping. You absolutely will want it. It's whether or not you're ok having it via an external device such as madVR / Lumagen / ENVY or if you need the projector to handle it. I also think there's an excellent chance the RS4500 is getting something in this regard. As I've said previously, most the work is already being done to provide dynamic laser dimming. The firmware is already measuring each frame's ADL and adjusting the laser + gamma appropriately. That's basically all DTM is at its core.
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post #3456 of 3537 Old 10-09-2019, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Thanks for the insight. I have been told the NX9 is “more advanced” technology with 8k eshift, better contrast, quieter and now will have the HDR DTM (I emailed JVC and they still can’t confirm if rs4500 will get it ). But as you say the laser source and perhaps higher quality optical system are very attractive. I am sure it looks amazing.

I definitely would come by your place to see it (thanks for the invite) but the trip is pretty far being up here in Canada !


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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I think the 8K eshift looks a little like sharpening processing but very subtle. If it's on or off, you wouldnt' know unless you toggled it and watched it toggle. If you leave the room and come back you won't notice either way. I think 8K eshift is more marketing than actually useful.

I know the NX9 supposedly has the better contrast. But there are circumstances where the RS4500 outperforms it in my opinion. Plus there's a huge advantage to dynamic laser dimming vs moving dynamic iris.

However, if you're going to be inputting direct HDR signal and not doing any pretone mapping via madVR or lumagen, the NX9 with its firmware update might be a better choice. I know Terry said above you wont miss it, but he doesn't know what he's missing. I don't think he has ever seen dynamic tone mapping in action. To me, the question isn't whether or not you'll want dynamic tone mapping. You absolutely will want it. It's whether or not you're ok having it via an external device such as madVR / Lumagen / ENVY or if you need the projector to handle it. I also think there's an excellent chance the RS4500 is getting something in this regard. As I've said previously, most the work is already being done to provide dynamic laser dimming. The firmware is already measuring each frame's ADL and adjusting the laser + gamma appropriately. That's basically all DTM is at its core.


Hello Blake from Canada,

I quoted your post along with Mark's.
He is much-much more informed than myself on these matters.
Especially when speaking of the DTM feature.
My hope is that JVC is working on a version of DTM and will eventually add it with a Firmware up-date to the RS4500.

Blake, keep in mind that JVC has already said they are working on (Something) for the JVC RS4500.
(I and many-many others on AVS think that will be some version of DTM)

The bottom line is the buyer/purchaser in this case, you are Happy with your Final-Choice.

I wish you the best on that decision/choice as either JVC would IMHO perform Great buddy.

Terry

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post #3457 of 3537 Old 10-09-2019, 09:36 AM
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Possibly stupid question, but I'd just like to confirm my understanding. The difference between Auto Tone Mapping and Dynamic Tone Mapping is that the former bases its tone mapping algorithms off of the max/min data for the entire disc while the latter uses the max/min data for each scene. Is that correct?
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post #3458 of 3537 Old 10-10-2019, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dla26 View Post
Possibly stupid question, but I'd just like to confirm my understanding. The difference between Auto Tone Mapping and Dynamic Tone Mapping is that the former bases its tone mapping algorithms off of the max/min data for the entire disc while the latter uses the max/min data for each scene. Is that correct?


Yes each scene or each frame (you can pick with the new NX series firmware). Really hope the RS4500 gets this.

And Anamorphic DCR lens support (why wouldn’t they have added this yet ???)
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post #3459 of 3537 Old 10-10-2019, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by blake View Post
Really hope the RS4500 gets this.
I'd say the odds on this are very good...
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
I'd say the odds on this are very good...
I agree. JVC seems to have a unique feeling for the RS4500. Rather than let it die, they've kept it alive longer than normal and its still the flagship. They've so far added every feature into the RS4500 where possible. It could be that a couple engineers have RS4500's for personal use and just want to do everything to keep it up-to-date. Who knows? From what I've been told by reliable sources, the RS4500 was a unique project for JVC where they really went all out and took pride in the quality of the end product. It's not like the NX9 in this regard as that's more a mass produced version. I think its this pride that will keep JVC doing what they can to bring the new features into the RS4500 even if it's more challenging due to lack of memory.

JVC said they're working something for the RS4500. What else could that even be if you think about it.
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
I'd say the odds on this are very good...
You are not going badly! (¡NO VAS MAL ENCAMINADO!)

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post #3462 of 3537 Old 10-10-2019, 08:25 AM
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[QUOTE=blake;58667244]

Blake,

Just as a Heads-Up look for a in-depth PM from me I just now sent you.
I'm 100% sure you will find it not only informative but also to your liking.

Terry Honaker
USA
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post #3463 of 3537 Old 10-10-2019, 09:23 AM
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This is a very interesting thread; it had to be for me to read over 3,000 contributions! It's really nice to see how enthusiastic people are; I'm always inspired by this, and it feeds my own enthusiasm. As is always the case in any discussion of this kind, I tend to agree with some views more than others, but the good natured exchange of information is an excellent source of knowledge for me.

I can't resist adding my $0.02 to recent comments about seating distance. In the past this was rather dictated by the technology, but nowadays this isn't as much of a factor, or rather, technology eases the parameters somewhat. Firstly, I believe people should think more in terms of screen heights than widths, particularly when having a constant image height set-up. The 1:2.4 image is a specific choice of the director and is intended to be projected wider than flat ratio; whilst this appears to be stating the obvious, people who use flat ratio screens (i.e constant image width, in a sense) actively work against this intent.

So, assuming a 1:2.4 ratio screen, the best way to set seating distance, and I'm making the patently false assumption that the sound system can be readily adjusted to accommodate whatever the outcome of this is, is to find a comfortable distance for flat ratio, where you can view the whole picture without unduly moving your eyes, and certainly not your head. And then accepting, or more truthfully embracing, the fact that you're going to have to work a little to follow the action in 'Scope. Which is the intention, particularly of those directors who really use the full width of the screen. Obviously, many movies are photographed on the basis they'll be cropped for TV, but it is a real joy to see a properly framed 'Scope image with action and incident at the peripheries.

Another way of looking at it is if you prefer the front row in a 'reference' standard commercial cinema, then 1.5 screen heights distance is about right, 2 - 2.5 screen heights if you like to be in the middle, and 3 screen heights if you sit at the back. Of course, you may sit at the back for any number of reasons, but I'm limiting my comments to image preference.

Anyway, this is just my view, as I have nothing to contribute about nits or lumens or colour gamuts, other than to say that I'm very grateful for them all, as they create for me the magic of the movies. A magic that first had me under its spell in 1963, when I was trampled by a herd of buffalo whilst sitting on bleachers in big tent, and that I can now experience every night of the week in my own home. And it never gets old, unlike me.
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post #3464 of 3537 Old 10-10-2019, 10:35 AM
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I still like having 2 screens in 2 formats ( 16:9 and 2.35:1 ) so I can split the difference !

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
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post #3465 of 3537 Old 10-10-2019, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiTracey View Post
This is a very interesting thread; it had to be for me to read over 3,000 contributions! It's really nice to see how enthusiastic people are; I'm always inspired by this, and it feeds my own enthusiasm. As is always the case in any discussion of this kind, I tend to agree with some views more than others, but the good natured exchange of information is an excellent source of knowledge for me.

I can't resist adding my $0.02 to recent comments about seating distance. In the past this was rather dictated by the technology, but nowadays this isn't as much of a factor, or rather, technology eases the parameters somewhat. Firstly, I believe people should think more in terms of screen heights than widths, particularly when having a constant image height set-up. The 1:2.4 image is a specific choice of the director and is intended to be projected wider than flat ratio; whilst this appears to be stating the obvious, people who use flat ratio screens (i.e constant image width, in a sense) actively work against this intent.

So, assuming a 1:2.4 ratio screen, the best way to set seating distance, and I'm making the patently false assumption that the sound system can be readily adjusted to accommodate whatever the outcome of this is, is to find a comfortable distance for flat ratio, where you can view the whole picture without unduly moving your eyes, and certainly not your head. And then accepting, or more truthfully embracing, the fact that you're going to have to work a little to follow the action in 'Scope. Which is the intention, particularly of those directors who really use the full width of the screen. Obviously, many movies are photographed on the basis they'll be cropped for TV, but it is a real joy to see a properly framed 'Scope image with action and incident at the peripheries.

Another way of looking at it is if you prefer the front row in a 'reference' standard commercial cinema, then 1.5 screen heights distance is about right, 2 - 2.5 screen heights if you like to be in the middle, and 3 screen heights if you sit at the back. Of course, you may sit at the back for any number of reasons, but I'm limiting my comments to image preference.

Anyway, this is just my view, as I have nothing to contribute about nits or lumens or colour gamuts, other than to say that I'm very grateful for them all, as they create for me the magic of the movies. A magic that first had me under its spell in 1963, when I was trampled by a herd of buffalo whilst sitting on bleachers in big tent, and that I can now experience every night of the week in my own home. And it never gets old, unlike me.
There are a variety of ways to deal with the situation. I chose to go with a hybrid screen size, 2.0 AR: 12 ft W, 6 ft H. For 2.4 pics I zoom to full width, so the pic is 5 ft H. For 16x9 pics, I zoom to full height, so the pic is 6 ft H and 10 2/3 ft W. I have horizontal and vertical masks to deal with the two situations (but am often lazy and don't bother since the contrast is so good that the 'black bars' are hardly noticeable). I sit about 10 ft away.
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post #3466 of 3537 Old 10-10-2019, 04:03 PM
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I agree that the best compromise is masking both ways, and likewise I'm often too lazy to actually bother. I only use the full height for Imax, however. Given that in a typical room width is generally more of a constraint then height, I do think that 1:2.4 screens sacrifice too much image size for flat or Academy ratio movies, which I prefer a bit taller. Of course, two screens is another approach; I didn't even think of that.
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post #3467 of 3537 Old 10-11-2019, 07:57 AM
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Watched " Blade Runner 2049 " last night with a friend that had never seen it. Hadn't watched it since Mr. Deering did his magic and the latest Lumagen DTM firmware came out. All I can say is the picture was astounding !
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post #3468 of 3537 Old 10-11-2019, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiTracey View Post
I agree that the best compromise is masking both ways, and likewise I'm often too lazy to actually bother. I only use the full height for Imax, however. Given that in a typical room width is generally more of a constraint then height, I do think that 1:2.4 screens sacrifice too much image size for flat or Academy ratio movies, which I prefer a bit taller. Of course, two screens is another approach; I didn't even think of that.
I need to use an electric retractable screen, and I've found that two separate screens is less expensive than one electric masking screen. Then you can have a taller 16:9 screen and a wide scope screen. Best of both worlds.
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post #3469 of 3537 Old 10-11-2019, 08:33 AM
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I need to use an electric retractable screen, and I've found that two separate screens is less expensive than one electric masking screen. Then you can have a taller 16:9 screen and a wide scope screen. Best of both worlds.


Is there much difference in picture quality between a fix mounted and retractable screen?


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post #3470 of 3537 Old 10-11-2019, 08:35 AM
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Is there much difference in picture quality between a fix mounted and retractable screen?


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Not with Stewart Filmscreens - which is what I have.

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post #3471 of 3537 Old 10-12-2019, 09:25 AM
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Exclamation

AVS Members and Guest,

Make it a necessity to be sure to read the Three (3) posts I'm providing the links below to,

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58673956

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58621210

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58621214

It is a very-very important read if your thinking, buying, pondering, wishing for the JVC RS4500 Laser projector.


Here is the Final Report from one of the Professional's on this AVS Internet Site,

ARROW-AV,



And for what it's worth the JVC RS4500/Z1 currently has the highest overall score of
all 2019 model JVC and SONY home theater projector which I have evaluated and reviewed...







Terry

Last edited by tigerhonaker; 10-12-2019 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Added useful text ...........
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post #3472 of 3537 Old 10-15-2019, 03:31 PM
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Wathcing Blade Runner 2049 with a friend on the RS4500 the other night was amazing. Everything has come together recently ( Lumagen's latest DTM, Kris's calibration ) to provide the best picture in my theater. Ever.
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post #3473 of 3537 Old 10-15-2019, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Wathcing Blade Runner 2049 with a friend on the RS4500 the other night was amazing. Everything has come together recently ( Lumagen's latest DTM, Kris's calibration ) to provide the best picture in my theater. Ever.

It looks fantastic even on my laptop!
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See ya. Dave

"High Fidelity audio has been like a dog chasing his tail. High Fidelity in my marriage has been much more rewarding because she knows where I sleep."
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post #3474 of 3537 Old 10-15-2019, 07:03 PM
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It looks fantastic even on my laptop!

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
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post #3475 of 3537 Old 10-16-2019, 12:47 AM
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Any RS4500 owners have their projector ceiling-mounted in a hush box ?

If so, I would be interested to see your design or hear some of your tips for building this.
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post #3476 of 3537 Old 10-16-2019, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Wathcing Blade Runner 2049 with a friend on the RS4500 the other night was amazing. Everything has come together recently ( Lumagen's latest DTM, Kris's calibration ) to provide the best picture in my theater. Ever.
This movie needs DTM more than any other movie I've ever seen. I thought it looked pretty bad up until around build 45 of madVR that introduced the DTM then all the sudden it looked great. I'm not saying Kris' calibration wasn't great, but I bet the majority of the improvement on that is the Lumagen's DTM.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #3477 of 3537 Old 10-16-2019, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Wathcing Blade Runner 2049 with a friend on the RS4500 the other night was amazing. Everything has come together recently ( Lumagen's latest DTM, Kris's calibration ) to provide the best picture in my theater. Ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
This movie needs DTM more than any other movie I've ever seen. I thought it looked pretty bad up until around build 45 of madVR that introduced the DTM then all the sudden it looked great. I'm not saying Kris' calibration wasn't great, but I bet the majority of the improvement on that is the Lumagen's DTM.
Bladerunner 2049 actually doesn't have a great deal of high peak brightness highlights - I think it maxes out at around the 500 nits mark, and most scenes are much lower - so ironically it doesn't need a great deal of tone mapping if any for most scenes. The reason it benefits from dynamic tone mapping is that it can utilise more of the displays native brightness range because DTM can dynamically lower the clipping point to suit it, rather than a chunk of it being held over for highlights (as you would get with, say, a 1000nit static curve) which means that most scenes and frames will be mapped nit-for-nit with no tone mapping applied.
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post #3478 of 3537 Old 10-16-2019, 06:02 AM
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Bladerunner 2049 actually doesn't have a great deal of high peak brightness highlights - I think it maxes out at around the 500 nits mark, and most scenes are much lower - so ironically it doesn't need a great deal of tone mapping if any for most scenes. The reason it benefits from dynamic tone mapping is that it can utilise more of the displays native brightness range because DTM can dynamically lower the clipping point to suit it, rather than a chunk of it being held over for highlights (as you would get with, say, a 1000nit static curve) which means that most scenes and frames will be mapped nit-for-nit with no tone mapping applied.
I think one of the reasons it benefits from DTM so much is because it reports 10000 nits (Sony version) which causes most static tone mapping algorithms to be too dark for this movie. Then add to that it has a ton of dark scenes. When you allow for DTM to throw out the meta and measure each frame you end up with something that looks great.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #3479 of 3537 Old 10-16-2019, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
This movie needs DTM more than any other movie I've ever seen. I thought it looked pretty bad up until around build 45 of madVR that introduced the DTM then all the sudden it looked great. I'm not saying Kris' calibration wasn't great, but I bet the majority of the improvement on that is the Lumagen's DTM.
Both helped improve the picture. I like a bright image, but Kris's approach has improved the dark scenes and brought out the subtleties in films like this. He knows his stuff and he knows the Lumagen really well.
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post #3480 of 3537 Old 10-17-2019, 10:26 AM
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Is there any way to find out which UHD discs include the data the RS4500 uses for ATM and which ones don't? I've watched a few discs since installing the firmware upgrade, but it seems to be pretty random as to whether the disc includes that data or not. I'd say my experience has been about 50-50.
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