Official JVC RS4500/Z1 Owner's Thread - Page 117 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3481 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dla26 View Post
Is there any way to find out which UHD discs include the data the RS4500 uses for ATM and which ones don't? I've watched a few discs since installing the firmware upgrade, but it seems to be pretty random as to whether the disc includes that data or not. I'd say my experience has been about 50-50.
The RS4500 does not have dynamic tone mapping for HDR ( yet anyway ). Most of us owners here seem to use either a Lumagen or MadVR on a HTPC. Which firmware are you referring to ?

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post #3482 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 01:55 PM
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The RS4500 does not have dynamic tone mapping for HDR ( yet anyway ). Most of us owners here seem to use either a Lumagen or MadVR on a HTPC. Which firmware are you referring to ?
The auto tone mapping functionality based on the MaxCLL (Maximum Content Light Level) / MaxFALL (Maximum Frame Average Light Level) metadata from the disc. (Firmware 2.0) I know that it doesn't have DTM yet.
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post #3483 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dla26 View Post
Is there any way to find out which UHD discs include the data the RS4500 uses for ATM and which ones don't? I've watched a few discs since installing the firmware upgrade, but it seems to be pretty random as to whether the disc includes that data or not. I'd say my experience has been about 50-50.

The 4500 doesn't have ATM (though it is rumored to maybe, possibly, hopefully have it maybe possibly eventually). You need a video processor like the Lumagen or MadVR or ....
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post #3484 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 03:41 PM
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The 4500 doesn't have ATM (though it is rumored to maybe, possibly, hopefully have it maybe possibly eventually). You need a video processor like the Lumagen or MadVR or ....
Um, yes it does. It's been one of the primary sources of discussion on this thread.

More info: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consu...00_update.html

Unless you mean DTM? Again, my question is about ATM.
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post #3485 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dla26 View Post
Um, yes it does. It's been one of the primary sources of discussion on this thread.

More info: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consu...00_update.html

Unless you mean DTM? Again, my question is about ATM.

Oops!! My reading comprehension skills are apparently broken. You are correct as I was thinking DTM.
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post #3486 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 04:15 PM
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Just to recap my question then:

The 2.0 firmware enables auto (NOT dynamic) tone mapping functionality based on the MaxCLL (Maximum Content Light Level) / MaxFALL (Maximum Frame Average Light Level) metadata from the disc. Not all discs have this metadata.

Is there any way to find out which UHD discs include the data the RS4500 uses for ATM and which ones don't? I've watched a few discs since installing the firmware upgrade, but it seems to be pretty random as to whether the disc includes that data or not. I'd say my experience has been about 50-50.
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post #3487 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dla26 View Post
Just to recap my question then:



The 2.0 firmware enables auto (NOT dynamic) tone mapping functionality based on the MaxCLL (Maximum Content Light Level) / MaxFALL (Maximum Frame Average Light Level) metadata from the disc. Not all discs have this metadata.



Is there any way to find out which UHD discs include the data the RS4500 uses for ATM and which ones don't? I've watched a few discs since installing the firmware upgrade, but it seems to be pretty random as to whether the disc includes that data or not. I'd say my experience has been about 50-50.


Sorry I am not answering your question but just adding a comment. I am not a rs4500 owner (yet) but I think I would turn ATM off. The MaxCLL / FALL data may ruin the movie. Even if one second of one scene has a extremely high luminance value, the entire movie will be mapped downwards so this one second of content is not too bright. So the rest of the movie will be forced into relatively low luminance, ruining it.

JVC really needs DTM on the 4500!



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post #3488 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 07:11 PM
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Here’s a question :

JVC rs4500 plus Lumagen Pro plus DCR lens

Costs about as much as Sony 5000ES !

Wouldn’t the Sony still perform better ? Certainly for luminance and contrast I would think it would ?
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post #3489 of 3632 Old 10-17-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by blake View Post
Here’s a question :

JVC rs4500 plus Lumagen Pro plus DCR lens

Costs about as much as Sony 5000ES !

Wouldn’t the Sony still perform better ? Certainly for luminance and contrast I would think it would ?
Not in the US it doesn't. Costs less street price for all 3 than a VW5000 at dealer cost. And if you want to play that game, you would still want the lens and the Lumagen with the VW5000.
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post #3490 of 3632 Old 10-18-2019, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Here’s a question :

JVC rs4500 plus Lumagen Pro plus DCR lens

Costs about as much as Sony 5000ES !

Wouldn’t the Sony still perform better ? Certainly for luminance and contrast I would think it would ?
I have compared the 5000ES to my Z1 and apart from outright max brightness i rate the image from the Z1 higher than that of the 5000ES.

Add either a Lumagen OR MadVR ( HTPC) to the Z1 and the gap widens substaintially !..... Add the DCR to the Z1 and things only improve again.
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post #3491 of 3632 Old 10-18-2019, 09:34 AM
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RS4500 b stock ( which is available ) widens that price gap even more.
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post #3492 of 3632 Old 10-18-2019, 10:46 AM
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RS4500 b stock ( which is available ) widens that price gap even more.

For a screen size, say, 12 feet wide or under, the combination of the RS4500, Lumagen and Panamorph would always be my choice against the Sony5000 if it did not have the Lumagen even if they were the same price. After having seen a Sony with and without, the Lumagen should be considered mandatory. Having said that, (and if money and physical space requirements were excluded), I would take a Sony with a Lumagen and be a very happy owner.
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post #3493 of 3632 Old 10-19-2019, 02:58 PM
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Just thought id post this..........( yeah, i know more Z1 praise! )

I had a young couple ( Jerusha & Cameron) come around last evening to watch a couple of movie,s in my theatre. They are keen movie goers and opon finding out i had a "Theatre" setup they couldnt wait to come over.

They are very keen to eventually setup their own "small" HT down the track when things permit , they have just purchased a new house so funds are a little short at this stage.

Bascically , they were both awed by the image that they viewed. It is interesting on the 2 most prominent comments they made regarding image quality.

#1 was the absolute "Clean" "Sharp" image ....... "Jerusha" commented many times on how the image was so "Clean/Detailed" and not ....."Spotty" .... like many she had seen.

#2 was the "awesome" "Black" levels ...... this was "Camerons" biggest impression, he is a SCI FI addict and he said to many time,s the experience is ruined by poor black levels.

Its a great feeling sometimes to get feedback from people who are not familiar with your setup........you get used to it yourself and positive comments from others re inforce the satisfaction you get from all the work and cost you put into your HT setup!.

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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Just thought id post this..........( yeah, i know more Z1 praise! )

I had a young couple ( Jerrusah & Cameron) come around last evening to watch a couple of movie,s in my theatre. They are keen movie goers and opon finding out i had a "Theatre" setup they couldnt wait to come over.

They are very keen to eventually setup their own "small" HT down the track when things permit , they have just purchased a new house so funds are a little short at this stage.

Bascically , they were both awed by the image that they viewed. It is interesting on the 2 most prominent comments they made regarding image quality.

#1 was the absolute "Clean" "Sharp" image ....... "Jerusha" commented many times on how the image was so "Clean/Detailed" and not ....."Spotty" .... like many she had seen.

#2 was the "awesome" "Black" levels ...... this was "Camerons" biggest impression, he is a SCI FI addict and he said to many time,s the experience is ruined by poor black levels.

Its a great feeling sometimes to get feedback from people who are not familiar with your setup........you get used to it yourself and positive comments from others re inforce the satisfaction you get from all the work and cost you put into your HT setup!.
Sounds like you need to invest in your speakers


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post #3495 of 3632 Old 10-19-2019, 03:42 PM
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Sounds like you need to invest in your speakers

I thought id just done that Just installed a pair of Wilson Sasha DAW,s
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I thought id just done that Just installed a pair of Wilson Sasha DAW,s
Very nice! Your friends probably had no idea they were dealing with the elite of the home cinema world...

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post #3497 of 3632 Old 10-20-2019, 11:06 AM
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Very nice! Your friends probably had no idea they were dealing with the elite of the home cinema world...
I've had the opposite happen. I've had folks come see my RS4500 and say " ya, that looked great, and we figured it would, but the sound in your room is amazing ".
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post #3498 of 3632 Old 10-20-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dla26 View Post
Just to recap my question then:

The 2.0 firmware enables auto (NOT dynamic) tone mapping functionality based on the MaxCLL (Maximum Content Light Level) / MaxFALL (Maximum Frame Average Light Level) metadata from the disc. Not all discs have this metadata.

Is there any way to find out which UHD discs include the data the RS4500 uses for ATM and which ones don't? I've watched a few discs since installing the firmware upgrade, but it seems to be pretty random as to whether the disc includes that data or not. I'd say my experience has been about 50-50.
You pretty much get nothing in terms of usable metadata from Fox and Disney. Lionsgate can be hit or miss with accuracy. Sony and Warner have MaxCLL levels that are clearly not correct based on the mastering monitors they use. Universal does all of its masters at 1000 nits last time I looked.

For streaming it is also a mixed bag. Most of the Dolby Vision stuff on Netflix get converted to some generic 4000 nit metadata. Not sure on Amazon Prime.

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You pretty much get nothing in terms of usable metadata from Fox and Disney. Lionsgate can be hit or miss with accuracy. Sony and Warner have MaxCLL levels that are clearly not correct based on the mastering monitors they use. Universal does all of its masters at 1000 nits last time I looked.



For streaming it is also a mixed bag. Most of the Dolby Vision stuff on Netflix get converted to some generic 4000 nit metadata. Not sure on Amazon Prime.


Kris, now that you have seen the JVC DTM on the new projectors , how do you think it compares to DTM on the Lumagen Pro ?

I don’t know if I should get my hopes up for a RS4500 DTM firmware upgrade - not sure if it would be implemented or look the same, given the added ability to do laser dimming on RS4500 (vs dynamic iris only).
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I turned on my 4500. Started to watch some HDR material and the picture didn't seem right. The projector did not switch over to HDR gamma. I switched it over manually, and called up the gamma menu. I have installed v2.0 weeks ago, but noticed that the gamma rating was blank. Then the picture dropped out. Now, the projectors will not recognize any signal via HDMI input.


I'm dead in the water. It might be a 3rd world problem, but it still sucks.

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post #3501 of 3632 Old 10-21-2019, 06:15 AM
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I turned on my 4500. Started to watch some HDR material and the picture didn't seem right. The projector did not switch over to HDR gamma. I switched it over manually, and called up the gamma menu. I have installed v2.0 weeks ago, but noticed that the gamma rating was blank. Then the picture dropped out. Now, the projectors will not recognize any signal via HDMI input.

I'm dead in the water. It might be a 3rd world problem, but it still sucks.
That really does suck. Did you try the other HDMI input on the projector? The problem with PJs this size/weight is taking them down, boxing them up, strapping to a pallet and shipping them off - and then dong the reverse when they return - to be followed (possibly) by re-calibration. My original 4500 died shortly after I got it and I had to go through this.


Hopefully, you won't have to go through this.
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post #3502 of 3632 Old 10-21-2019, 06:24 AM
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That really does suck. Did you try the other HDMI input on the projector? The problem with PJs this size/weight is taking them down, boxing them up, strapping to a pallet and shipping them off - and then dong the reverse when they return - to be followed (possibly) by re-calibration. My original 4500 died shortly after I got it and I had to go through this.


Hopefully, you won't have to go through this.
Well in USA we have advanced exchange so there shouldn't be any of that hassling you described other than taking the projector down. When I swapped my last RS4500, my dealer got the advanced exchange, drove to my house with the projector and helped swap it then left both them here a day and came back the next day to get the one I didnt want. I never heard more about it so I assume it made its way back fine lol.

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post #3503 of 3632 Old 10-21-2019, 06:28 AM
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Kris, now that you have seen the JVC DTM on the new projectors , how do you think it compares to DTM on the Lumagen Pro ?

I don’t know if I should get my hopes up for a RS4500 DTM firmware upgrade - not sure if it would be implemented or look the same, given the added ability to do laser dimming on RS4500 (vs dynamic iris only).
I don't believe laser dimming will have any impact one way or the other on how dynamic tone mapping operates. Although, it may have some behavior changes to how laser dimming operates in tone mapped mode. JVC will only want Firmware to measure the image once. So it won't want to measure again after changes made by tone mapping so the laser dimming and tone mapping will likely be all calculated on the original measurement. I know this tone mapping isnt promised, but JVC said something's coming. What else could even be? I'm fairly certain we see some form of the DTM on the RS4500 in the next 6 months.
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post #3504 of 3632 Old 10-21-2019, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Kris, now that you have seen the JVC DTM on the new projectors , how do you think it compares to DTM on the Lumagen Pro ?

I don’t know if I should get my hopes up for a RS4500 DTM firmware upgrade - not sure if it would be implemented or look the same, given the added ability to do laser dimming on RS4500 (vs dynamic iris only).
Quote:
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I don't believe laser dimming will have any impact one way or the other on how dynamic tone mapping operates. Although, it may have some behavior changes to how laser dimming operates in tone mapped mode. JVC will only want Firmware to measure the image once. So it won't want to measure again after changes made by tone mapping so the laser dimming and tone mapping will likely be all calculated on the original measurement.
I know this tone mapping isnt promised,
but JVC said something's coming.
What else could even be?
I'm fairly certain we see some form of the DTM on the RS4500 in the next 6 months.
Hi Mark,

I'm with you and in my case probably much more so as I don't have any other gear to do DTM for my RS4500.
This in my case if JVC does come through with some version of DTM will save me in the (Thousands) of dollars.
I agree with your logic in that JVC did state something like, we have something coming for the RS4500, to me and lots & lots of others that's DTM.

I still want to add Atmos and if JVC does do their thing with the addition of some version of DTM to the RS4500 those monies I would be spending for as an example the Lumagen will not be necessary.
I can then use those dollars towards adding Atmos at some point in the future.

Terry
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Good news. I tried a little trick. I had left the thumb drive with v2.0 firmware in the projector. Through the menu, I attempted to re-install v2.0. The 4500 immediately shut down. When I started it up again, everything was fine. BTW, the 4K HDR Pride & Prejudice & Zombies is my current go-to movie to check picture quality.

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post #3506 of 3632 Old 10-21-2019, 11:00 AM
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Each year I attend the 'Widescreen Weekend' at the Science and Media Museum in Bradford (UK), partly to enjoy the movies and being among total movie geeks (albeit generally of a certain age and demographic), listen to the lectures, support the endeavour, but also partly for a reality check in terms of what I'm trying to achieve with my domestic set-up.

In short, I'll take nothing away from this venue, particularly the Pictureville auditorium which is superb, and amongst many accomplishments can and does run three projector Cinerama on its large curved screen (there is a drop down flat screen too), I can safely say that in technical terms the picture and sound I have achieved at home is night and day better than this reference standard commercial cinema. I strongly suspect we can all say the same, albeit I'm sure we've each had to dig deep to achieve this. Whilst we largely have coalesced around a Z1/4500, Lumagen and DCR, doubtless our approach to sound is entirely individual, though some will be more particular about it than others. But I'm sure we've all tried to push the envelope in our own way.

However, having experienced a very long journey to reach this Holy Grail in terms of quality, I realise now that I've actually achieved what I set out to. From this point on it's high time I spent less energy worrying about and addressing every minor imperfection or perceived failing, and more time simply enjoying this miracle of technology that can bring movies into my home on a scale and impact that few could match (and few would care to, even if they could).

Gearheads being what they are, I would not be surprised if some or most will continue their journey, but I'm pretty much done. Oh, short of a professional calibration of the Lumagen. Er, and the new Arcam A40 processor looks pretty neat.

I'll post some photos of my hush box shortly for the guy who's interested. Not sure how those with the noisy elephant in the room stand it (aesthetically or acoustically) but, if you can, it's a lot less effort.
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post #3507 of 3632 Old 10-21-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by HiTracey View Post
Each year I attend the 'Widescreen Weekend' at the Science and Media Museum in Bradford (UK), partly to enjoy the movies and being among total movie geeks (albeit generally of a certain age and demographic), listen to the lectures, support the endeavour, but also partly for a reality check in terms of what I'm trying to achieve with my domestic set-up.

In short, I'll take nothing away from this venue, particularly the Pictureville auditorium which is superb, and amongst many accomplishments can and does run three projector Cinerama on its large curved screen (there is a drop down flat screen too), I can safely say that in technical terms the picture and sound I have achieved at home is night and day better than this reference standard commercial cinema. I strongly suspect we can all say the same, albeit I'm sure we've each had to dig deep to achieve this. Whilst we largely have coalesced around a Z1/4500, Lumagen and DCR, doubtless our approach to sound is entirely individual, though some will be more particular about it than others. But I'm sure we've all tried to push the envelope in our own way.

However, having experienced a very long journey to reach this Holy Grail in terms of quality, I realise now that I've actually achieved what I set out to. From this point on it's high time I spent less energy worrying about and addressing every minor imperfection or perceived failing, and more time simply enjoying this miracle of technology that can bring movies into my home on a scale and impact that few could match (and few would care to, even if they could).

Gearheads being what they are, I would not be surprised if some or most will continue their journey, but I'm pretty much done. Oh, short of a professional calibration of the Lumagen. Er, and the new Arcam A40 processor looks pretty neat.

I'll post some photos of my hush box shortly for the guy who's interested. Not sure how those with the noisy elephant in the room stand it (aesthetically or acoustically) but, if you can, it's a lot less effort.
Great post! And I, for one, really need a hush box. How others can not be bothered with this projector noise even mid laser is beyond me. I find it so incredibly distracting. I know how to build the box (Panamorph lens fit, notwithstanding), but understanding EXACTLY how and where to install heat sensors, how much air should the in-line fan pull, etc, etc, is beyond me. What I don't want to do is build something that stops the noise but doesn't have the proper air flow and sensors to know when something might fail and destroy the PJ.

I look forward to your hush box photos and any accompanying notes you are willing to provide!
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post #3508 of 3632 Old 10-21-2019, 02:37 PM
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I'm fairly certain we see some form of the DTM on the RS4500 in the next 6 months.
@tigerhonaker ... yeah hold out mate, i am sure that the DTM will make its way to the Z1/RS4500
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post #3509 of 3632 Old 10-22-2019, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Great post! And I, for one, really need a hush box. How others can not be bothered with this projector noise even mid laser is beyond me. I find it so incredibly distracting. I know how to build the box (Panamorph lens fit, notwithstanding), but understanding EXACTLY how and where to install heat sensors, how much air should the in-line fan pull, etc, etc, is beyond me. What I don't want to do is build something that stops the noise but doesn't have the proper air flow and sensors to know when something might fail and destroy the PJ.



I look forward to your hush box photos and any accompanying notes you are willing to provide!


I second this ! Need some help in designing hush box for 4500.
-How much space do you need around the projector itself ?
-How many Pc fans for exhaust and supply ? -Do you need channels adjacent to the fan hold to lessen noise egress ?

So many questions.
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post #3510 of 3632 Old 10-22-2019, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Great post! And I, for one, really need a hush box. How others can not be bothered with this projector noise even mid laser is beyond me. I find it so incredibly distracting. I know how to build the box (Panamorph lens fit, notwithstanding), but understanding EXACTLY how and where to install heat sensors, how much air should the in-line fan pull, etc, etc, is beyond me. What I don't want to do is build something that stops the noise but doesn't have the proper air flow and sensors to know when something might fail and destroy the PJ.

I look forward to your hush box photos and any accompanying notes you are willing to provide!
Do you have the front vent deflectors installed? That was the single biggest thing I did to reduce mid laser noise.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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