Official JVC RS4500/Z1 Owner's Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 3391 Old 02-03-2017, 04:21 PM
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It's a little dirty in this photo. Sure drives great though - fast, comfortable !
Luckily I have two friends off work today that are coming over shortly to help me install the RS4500 !
Ah the tension/suspension is too much to take.
Nice car - I'm always a fan of the Z. Prefer red though :-).

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post #92 of 3391 Old 02-03-2017, 05:03 PM
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That's OK, I don't need a ticket. How about best score out of 20 rounds with iron sights at 300 yards with M1A's instead ?

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post #93 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 02:02 AM
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Well I finally have one to compare to my Sony 5000ES and my JVC RS600.
Brilliant Chris. Been waiting for this! Don't be shy posting your findings!

I'm kinda hoping you will be reporting that it nicely fills a space somewhere between the two (bar WCG) given that's where its price is situated
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post #94 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 02:39 AM
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I'm hoping he finds the Z1 thrashes the 5000 :P

My cinema: The Cave!
My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, JVC Z1, Lumagen Pro, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500
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post #95 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 02:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm hoping he finds the Z1 thrashes the 5000 :P
lol.. probably not.. I suspect the Z1 will sit nicely at it's price point. I never anticipated it would be a 5000 killer. Being realistic. It's almost twice the price @ retail.
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post #96 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
I'm hoping he finds the Z1 thrashes the 5000
Go and post that in the SONY 5000 owners thread... If you dare!

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Originally Posted by adidino View Post
...a 5000 killer. Being realistic. It's almost twice the price @ retail.
A SONY 5000 killer is a projector that a lot of people would like to see within the next 12-24 months, many SONY 5000 owners included, but like you say it's a bit unlikely this will transpire at circa 35,000 price range... But one can still hope, maybe the RS5500/Z2?
.

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post #97 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 03:30 AM
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Go and post that in the SONY 5000 owners thread... If you dare!
I think I'll wait a couple of years until the SXRD panels have degraded...
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post #98 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 03:39 AM
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I think I'll wait a couple of years until the SXRD panels have degraded...
Ha! Checkmate... You got me! Well played sir
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post #99 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I'll wait a couple of years until the SXRD panels have degraded...

OUCH
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post #100 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 05:11 AM
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Some 5000 owners have put significant hours on their projectors already. Will be interesting to see some of the very controlled follow ups by the likes of Ken Whitcomb. I will not be surprised if we see little degradation. Early reports are favorable. Fingers crossed!
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post #101 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 06:10 AM
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I think the realistic Z1 competition will be the new laser model coming from Sony with a 25K msrp. Anyone want to bet it will be less quiet?

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post #102 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Some 5000 owners have put significant hours on their projectors already. Will be interesting to see some of the very controlled follow ups by the likes of Ken Whitcomb. I will not be surprised if we see little degradation. Early reports are favorable. Fingers crossed!
That would be great! Just so you know both Mark_H and I are SONY 1000/1100ES owners, so not SONY bashing, but genuine concern as existing SONY customers... So it would be brilliant to see this absolutely definitive confirmation to which you refer that the concern with respect to the reported SXRD panel degradation does not apply to the SONY 5000ES... Do you have an ETA regarding this?
.
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post #103 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 07:04 AM
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Yeah, I genuinely hope Sony deliver a fix. I want to be able to consider buying them again.
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post #104 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 07:10 AM
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Been messing around with calibration again today.

I've never owned a projector that calibrates as well as this thing does.

I compared a CalMAN Lightning LUT vs a 4000 patch LUT, and not only were the results essentially identical, but both delivered a greyscale with an average dE of 0.3 (max 0.8) from 10-100 and an average colour gamut dE < 1 (max 1.3). Saturation sweep readings 10-100 IRE were also < 1dE and only luminance sweep readings showed some errors around 1.5dE at the low end of the scale.

Outstanding.

So, a lightning LUT is all you need to get an outstanding calibration from this projector.

I used to do a Lightning LUT on the Sony 1000 too, but the resulting dEs were always higher, particularly in the saturation and luminance sweeps. The benefits of laser...?
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post #105 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 07:50 AM
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Yeah, I genuinely hope Sony deliver a fix. I want to be able to consider buying them again.
My understanding is the issue was fairly uncommon, though one would not get that impression being a member on AVS.

Nonetheless the most recent Sony projectors, including the 5000, apparently have redesigned panels to address those rare instances that were likely related to humidity/condensation and projectors that weren't used regularly.

I had a properly controlled environment and put heavy hours on my 1100, and did not experience contrast issues. Even adidino here did not have issues despite less usage - but he also does not have a humid environment.
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UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 16 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
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post #106 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Been messing around with calibration again today.

I've never owned a projector that calibrates as well as this thing does.

I compared a CalMAN Lightning LUT vs a 4000 patch LUT, and not only were the results essentially identical, but both delivered a greyscale with an average dE of 0.3 (max 0.8) from 10-100 and an average colour gamut dE < 1 (max 1.3). Saturation sweep readings 10-100 IRE were also < 1dE and only luminance sweep readings showed some errors around 1.5dE at the low end of the scale.

Outstanding.

So, a lightning LUT is all you need to get an outstanding calibration from this projector.

I used to do a Lightning LUT on the Sony 1000 too, but the resulting dEs were always higher, particularly in the saturation and luminance sweeps. The benefits of laser...?
What meter/spectro do you use?

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 16 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
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post #107 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 09:25 AM
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My understanding is the issue was fairly uncommon, though one would not get that impression being a member on AVS.
Once bitten, twice shy. My 1000 went back to Sony for an optical block replacement.

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post #108 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 09:26 AM
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What meter/spectro do you use?
Klein K10-A profiled off a Colorimetry Research CR250RH.

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post #109 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 09:34 AM
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Klein K10-A profiled off a Colorimetry Research CR250RH.
Thanks - yeah I don't think my ID3 will cut it - it seems the narrow blue wavelength in these new laser projectors require 4-5 nanometer sensitivity

Just don't feel like plinking down $6-8k for a spectro

Unless my understanding is incorrect...

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 16 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
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post #110 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 09:36 AM
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I'm hoping he finds the Z1 thrashes the 5000 :P
lol.. probably not.. I suspect the Z1 will sit nicely at it's price point. I never anticipated it would be a 5000 killer. Being realistic. It's almost twice the price @ retail.
I agree. I don't expect the Z1 to be a Sony killer by any stretch of the imagination. I expect the Z1 will shine on smaller screens, where the iris can be closed down a fair amount to see a nice bump in contrast.

I think the Z1 is going to be limited to screens no larger than 12' wide, but will get to comparing things this afternoon. I am also interested in how loud the Z1 is, especially compared to the 5000ES. The 5000ES with a Laser power setting of 60% or below, is extremely quiet.
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post #111 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 09:43 AM
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Go and post that in the SONY 5000 owners thread... If you dare!
I think I'll wait a couple of years until the SXRD panels have degraded...
We will see but, but that's not anything I lose sleep over at night. I live in Florida in a super humid enviroment. I have two 5000ES projectors. One has 1100 hours, the other has 650 hours.

Neither units have lost a single lux in light output, and both are still measuring over 12k:1 contrast.

They both will be a year old in April.

So neither unit has lost any contrast or brightness at this point.

Last edited by ccool96; 02-04-2017 at 02:29 PM.
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post #112 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 09:57 AM
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Thanks - yeah I don't think my ID3 will cut it - it seems the narrow blue wavelength in these new laser projectors require 4-5 nanometer sensitivity

Just don't feel like plinking down $6-8k for a spectro

Unless my understanding is incorrect...
I believe you are correct.

Would using the diffusor on some sensors get around this, I wonder, by spreading/diffusing the wavelength of blue? You'd have to read direct from the projector to get enough light through the diffusor, but it might be a workable solution...

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post #113 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 10:15 AM
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I believe you are correct.

Would using the diffusor on some sensors get around this, I wonder, by spreading/diffusing the wavelength of blue? You'd have to read direct from the projector to get enough light through the diffusor, but it might be a workable solution...
Perhaps - good idea

Though I'm still waiting for the Lumagen/CP P3/HDR workflow to fully constructed...

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 16 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
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post #114 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 12:42 PM
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Brilliant Chris. Been waiting for this! Don't be shy posting your findings!

I'm kinda hoping you will be reporting that it nicely fills a space somewhere between the two (bar WCG) given that's where its price is situated
.
Considering the native contrast, watching " Pacific Rim " on 4K last night, it looked amazing, even compared to my RS600 ( which has dimmed quite a bit in 350 hours - not something I'll need to worry about with the RS4500 ). I'm watching on a 122" diagonal 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve. manual iris is at -7, laser dimming mode 2. Mid power gives me about 20 foot lamberts. I'm watching 4K UHD BR's using Rec.709 like Kris Deering likes to use. I think the picture and colors look more realistic. BT.2020 is easily watchable on my screen ( tried it ), but I'm no fan of HDR, and that hasn't changed. Still, the picture looks awesome. I'm back to doing a bit of re-painting in my theater. back later
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post #115 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Some 5000 owners have put significant hours on their projectors already. Will be interesting to see some of the very controlled follow ups by the likes of Ken Whitcomb. I will not be surprised if we see little degradation. Early reports are favorable. Fingers crossed!
That would be great! Just so you know both Mark_H and I are SONY 1000/1100ES owners, so not SONY bashing, but genuine concern as existing SONY customers... So it would be brilliant to see this absolutely definitive confirmation to which you refer that the concern with respect to the reported SXRD panel degradation does not apply to the SONY 5000ES... Do you have an ETA regarding this?
.
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post #116 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 01:55 PM
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I'm hoping he finds the Z1 thrashes the 5000 :P

Just so I understand Mark , why do you feel that way. ?


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post #117 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 03:01 PM
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Just so I understand Mark , why do you feel that way. ?


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I think Mark was walking home one day and he was mugged by a SONY 5000... Stole his phone, his wallet, everything
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post #118 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 04:20 PM
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So some initial impressions of the Z1.

Im actually presently surprised.

One issue that I had major concerns about, which has been discussed at length, is how noisy the unit it. I don't find that to be the case at all, but I'm comparing this unit to other Pro units, not to consumer grade units. Im talking about the unit at max laser power / "Turbo mode" as its been described, when the unit has been running for a while.

Yes is much louder than a RS600, and it is a little louder than my 5000ES at full power, but not as loud as my previous DPI Titan Reference. I don't find this to be a big issue, I just think its a matter of perspective. Guys who have been using big Pro-grade units would not find it to be an issue. Guys who are use to completely silent consumer grade units probably wont be pleased.

Image - No calibration done. Just out of the box settings, the unit looks really nice. At max laser power / Iris open / Natural Mode / D65 setting - I get 2671 lumens. I am running the unit at max laser / iris open currently, and it has a nice punchy image even on a 14' wide screen. This is for blu-ray SDR viewing. (Again I think this is really beyond the limit of what the JVC should be used for.)

I think the Z1 sweet spot, is going to be on screens that are in the 10'-12' wide range. This will gives you many more options in how to run the unit. Either by reducing laser power or by closing down iris some. This will also allow you to open it up more for HDR content.

The dynamic laser dimming is visible in both Mode 1 and Mode 2. There is some "Pumping" without question. Using Lawrence of Arabia, the very beginning where its just a solid black image with music playing, you can see the "Black level" of the image just going up and down, up and down. On my Sony 5000ES, this stays completely black. I think JVC can improve this, but it needs some work. There is also the issue that Kris Deering described, where there can be a quick split-second jump in brightness on certain scene changes from light to dark. Best way I can describe this, is that the Laser is just dimming almost 1/2 a second later than it should. This too can probably be fixed thru future updates.

I haven't gotten down to just comparing scenes directly between the 5000ES and the Z1, but when I compare both at "out of the box" uncalibrated modes, the JVC Z1 at max laser / iris open is basically equal to the Sony with the Laser power set at 50, on a scale from 1 to 100.

More info and screenshot to come shortly.

Last edited by ccool96; 02-04-2017 at 04:28 PM.
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post #119 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 04:44 PM
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One other item I noticed, which is very similar to Sony units of the past. Previous Sony units like the 1100ES and the other smaller 4K units, have had issues where the Blue panel was out of convergence for the first 15 mins or so, then it would settle in.

I am seeing this exact same thing on the JVC. At power-up the Red color convergence was out. It required the Red to be moved 2 clicks down to get things in order, but after running if for about 30 mins, I rechecked the unit, and now the red was out the other direction. Resetting the red color back to "0" in both directions looked good after it had settled in.

This might also improve over time, but if not at least it seems to settle into place as the unit warms up.
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post #120 of 3391 Old 02-04-2017, 04:48 PM
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So some initial impressions of the Z1.

Im actually presently surprised.

One issue that I had major concerns about, which has been discussed at length, is how noisy the unit it. I don't find that to be the case at all, but I'm comparing this unit to other Pro units, not to consumer grade units. Im talking about the unit at max laser power / "Turbo mode" as its been described, when the unit has been running for a while.

Yes is much louder than a RS600, and it is a little louder than my 5000ES at full power, but not as loud as my previous DPI Titan Reference. I don't find this to be a big issue, I just think its a matter of perspective. Guys who have been using big Pro-grade units would not find it to be an issue. Guys who are use to completely silent consumer grade units probably wont be pleased.

Image - No calibration done. Just out of the box settings, the unit looks really nice. At max laser power / Iris open / Natural Mode / D65 setting - I get 2671 lumens. I am running the unit at max laser / iris open currently, and it has a nice punchy image even on a 14' wide screen. This is for blu-ray SDR viewing. (Again I think this is really beyond the limit of what the JVC should be used for.)

I think the Z1 sweet spot, is going to be on screens that are in the 10'-12' wide range. This will gives you many more options in how to run the unit. Either by reducing laser power or by closing down iris some. This will also allow you to open it up more for HDR content.

The dynamic laser dimming is visible in both Mode 1 and Mode 2. There is some "Pumping" without question. Using Lawrence of Arabia, the very beginning where its just a solid black image with music playing, you can see the "Black level" of the image just going up and down, up and down. On my Sony 5000ES, this stays completely black. I think JVC can improve this, but it needs some work. There is also the issue that Kris Deering described, where there can be a quick split-second jump in brightness on certain scene changes from light to dark. Best way I can describe this, is that the Laser is just dimming almost 1/2 a second later than it should. This too can probably be fixed thru future updates.

I haven't gotten down to just comparing scenes directly between the 5000ES and the Z1, but when I compare both at "out of the box" uncalibrated modes, the JVC Z1 at max laser / iris open is basically equal to the Sony with the Laser power set at 50, on a scale from 1 to 100.

More info and screenshot to come shortly.
I only saw the dynamic dimming a couple of times last night - so I have this theory. If you are on a small enough screen to run mid laser and close down the manual iris half way, the dimming works much better. Kris's screen is about my size. This would be something that I would be sure JVC could improve via firmware. And now there is an easy way to install new firmware at least !
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