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post #91 of 152 Old 06-01-2017, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rob Hahn View Post
Art, that's great that Mark gave you the ability to play with the Trinnov presets. Keith did that for me as well and it's awesome. I have 9 separate customizable presets for rows 2 & 3 (so 18 in all) and they really make a difference.

Even though you say you can't appreciate the audio upgrade as much as the video, you sound like you are really enjoying the quality!

-Rob

Yes, like I mentioned, one of the presets is bass boost more demo type thing but certainly as I use it it isn't in the least feeling overdone and the Atmos boost preset is the one that gave me such a new experience with Das Boot. I was sitting there and I heard a pop and I thought it was the house but it was the bulkhead !


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post #92 of 152 Old 06-01-2017, 02:21 PM
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JBL might want to hire you two to demo yours/their system.

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post #93 of 152 Old 06-01-2017, 02:39 PM
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JBL might want to hire you two to demo yours/their system.
I'm in! Art?
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post #94 of 152 Old 06-01-2017, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm in! Art?

Ha ha ,yea ,no problem. I'd like to have another demo at your place myself Rob !


Art
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post #95 of 152 Old 06-02-2017, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by D6500Ken View Post
They were Triad Silver or Bronze. It was fortunate that the size was similar to the Synthesis SCL-3 that replaced them.




Ken Whitcomb
I assume since these Triad Bronze dipoles have one big bass driver that the bass is in phase between the angled drivers?
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post #96 of 152 Old 06-02-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Hahn View Post
I'm in! Art?
I guess I should really do a meet at our house. But I'm not sure I would want to submit my wife to that. She'd do it, but would probably take too much on herself...

-Rob

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ter-build.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ult...-rob-hahn.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/92-com...n-theater.html
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post #97 of 152 Old 06-03-2017, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I should really do a meet at our house. But I'm not sure I would want to submit my wife to that. She'd do it, but would probably take too much on herself...

-Rob

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ter-build.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ult...-rob-hahn.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/92-com...n-theater.html

Understandable. I did a ton of preparation before the last two that I had and Angela made the clothing for the girls as well as food prep etc. No doubt it is a great deal of work but very fun and incredibly memorable.


I think that no matter what you post, the actual experience in your theater can't be adequately represented or articulated, it has to be experienced. I think anyone around here considering a theater for their home would be a fool not to attend if you did decide to open up yours.


Art
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post #98 of 152 Old 06-17-2017, 02:17 PM
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Art,
Are you and Rob equalizing above 500 hz?


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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Thanks for the warm welcome. I hope to be worthy of it

I have not read the entire thread, or others that I suspect you frequent, but I did notice comment on the directivity of the M2. I attach a figure from the new book, showing that the on axis and the listening window (an average of 9 curves: +/-10 vert, +/- 30 hor) are very close up to around 10 kHz, so small angular differences in listening position make little difference to the critically important direct sound.

The favorable comparison between the "early reflections" curve and measured room curves is also good to see. I hope none of you would equalize such a good loudspeaker above about 500 Hz.

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post #99 of 152 Old 06-19-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Art,
Are you and Rob equalizing above 500 hz?
Short answer: Yes.

The Trinnov response correction allows all sorts of settings to adjust, well beyond just the target frequency response, if you know what the parameters mean and how they effect the subjective result. I have played around with limiting the high frequency correction window, and in many cases you end up having to be very careful of exactly how the corrected range dovetails into the uncorrected high frequencies. If using conventional PEQ, I can agree that in most rooms you would not want to equalize the high frequency range of the speakers. The FIR-based high frequency correction is a bit of a different animal, and the hands off approach isn't as simple to make work in a complex, multi-channel, 3D audio system.

In Art's room we have multiple rows listening at different elevations, front speakers behind a Stewart Microperf screen, overhead speakers being used significantly off axis, and ear level speakers used at many different on and off axis angles. A huge part of the target curve optimization is to better match the spectral balance of the many speakers in the room through the entire range. With more than 5-7 speakers that becomes VERY tricky unless mostly identical speakers are used, in which case the speakers are likely to either be oversized in the surrounds or undersized in the screen channels... particularly in larger rooms with greater distances from the LCR.

Equalizing the range above 500Hz is trickier, and unless the acoustics are controlled very well in a manner the calibrator is familiar with, the ideal target will usually require some fine tuning guided by listening and measurements. I wish there were many more calibrators who put the time into the fine tuning of the systems like a few of the well known professionals here on the forum. Of course it takes more than just time, as it also requires experience and the knowledge in how to make the desired adjustments to what is subjectively observed.
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post #100 of 152 Old 06-19-2017, 03:48 PM
 
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I have no eq here using a bunch of floorstanders like the dolby guidelines suggested and i laughed at at first but sucker works. Although using a marantz when you de engage all the audyssey crap the dynaudio coherency is spooky good, had a couple of avsrs here and said they never heard better, people that have been to my 4 cedia demos. Also one builder that reps big name clients in Miami heard the holiday inn express 14 speaker 12 channel rig and went from his usual i let you know when i get a client doing a dedicated theater to "Move this system to Miami and I will bring each of my 8 current clients." He asked to come back again next weekend. That is extreme high praise as he is someone that has revolutionised the industry by taking a Client Advocacy Project Management role. So His interest is purely in the spirit of client advocacy. I have broken many a rule for speaker positioning here too. Sometimes I work very hard and get ok results, but other times amazing payouts come out, having floorstander type speakers all around gives a level of coherency to the system that is rare to quantify.
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post #101 of 152 Old 06-19-2017, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Short answer: Yes.

The Trinnov response correction allows all sorts of settings to adjust, well beyond just the target frequency response, if you know what the parameters mean and how they effect the subjective result. I have played around with limiting the high frequency correction window, and in many cases you end up having to be very careful of exactly how the corrected range dovetails into the uncorrected high frequencies. If using conventional PEQ, I can agree that in most rooms you would not want to equalize the high frequency range of the speakers. The FIR-based high frequency correction is a bit of a different animal, and the hands off approach isn't as simple to make work in a complex, multi-channel, 3D audio system.

In Art's room we have multiple rows listening at different elevations, front speakers behind a Stewart Microperf screen, overhead speakers being used significantly off axis, and ear level speakers used at many different on and off axis angles. A huge part of the target curve optimization is to better match the spectral balance of the many speakers in the room through the entire range. With more than 5-7 speakers that becomes VERY tricky unless mostly identical speakers are used, in which case the speakers are likely to either be oversized in the surrounds or undersized in the screen channels... particularly in larger rooms with greater distances from the LCR.

Equalizing the range above 500Hz is trickier, and unless the acoustics are controlled very well in a manner the calibrator is familiar with, the ideal target will usually require some fine tuning guided by listening and measurements. I wish there were many more calibrators who put the time into the fine tuning of the systems like a few of the well known professionals here on the forum. Of course it takes more than just time, as it also requires experience and the knowledge in how to make the desired adjustments to what is subjectively observed.

That sounds reasonable and ideal for the room. Just don't tell Floyd.
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post #102 of 152 Old 06-19-2017, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
I have no eq here using a bunch of floorstanders like the dolby guidelines suggested and i laughed at at first but sucker works. Although using a marantz when you de engage all the audyssey crap the dynaudio coherency is spooky good, had a couple of avsrs here and said they never heard better, people that have been to my 4 cedia demos. Also one builder that reps big name clients in Miami heard the holiday inn express 14 speaker 12 channel rig and went from his usual i let you know when i get a client doing a dedicated theater to "Move this system to Miami and I will bring each of my 8 current clients." He asked to come back again next weekend. That is extreme high praise as he is someone that has revolutionised the industry by taking a Client Advocacy Project Management role. So His interest is purely in the spirit of client advocacy. I have broken many a rule for speaker positioning here too. Sometimes I work very hard and get ok results, but other times amazing payouts come out, having floorstander type speakers all around gives a level of coherency to the system that is rare to quantify.
As long as you turn-off their nasty-ass Audyssey and the such, AVRs, especially Marantz, achieve amazing results for very little money.
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post #103 of 152 Old 06-19-2017, 09:24 PM
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Wow, a new Art thread. Somehow I missed it.

Congrats Art. Looks incredible.

Admittedly I'm not into the whole subwoofers thing but I'm really interested in your new screen. I can't find the info in this thread.

What screen material is it? Size? AR or not? Gain? Masking?

Thanks!
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post #104 of 152 Old 06-19-2017, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Wow, a new Art thread. Somehow I missed it.

Congrats Art. Looks incredible.

Admittedly I'm not into the whole subwoofers thing but I'm really interested in your new screen. I can't find the info in this thread.

What screen material is it? Size? AR or not? Gain? Masking?

Thanks!


His new screen is a 16' wide 2.40 Stewart Vistascope 2way masking screen. With ST130 fabric.

We looked at CIA but because Art's room was limited it height the CIH was the only real option.

The 16' wide screen basically maxes out his front wall from side to side and from floor to ceiling.




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post #105 of 152 Old 06-20-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
His new screen is a 16' wide 2.40 Stewart Vistascope 2way masking screen. With ST130 fabric.

We looked at CIA but because Art's room was limited it height the CIH was the only real option.

The 16' wide screen basically maxes out his front wall from side to side and from floor to ceiling.




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I appreciate the info.

On one hand it's too bad Art couldn't do CIA because he seemed to be going in that direction for quite a while (or expressing interest). But given the size of that screen and how gorgeous everything came out....Art wins!

You don't mention if it's an AT screen or not. If it's not, why didn't Art go for AT?

(I have the Stewart ST130 - non AT - which I love).
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post #106 of 152 Old 06-21-2017, 01:13 PM
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I see that the M2 speakers are free-standing (i.e. there is no baffle wall). However, is there any acoustical paneling or treatment behind the M2 speakers? I am not sure based on the pictures.
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post #107 of 152 Old 06-22-2017, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
I have no eq here using a bunch of floorstanders like the dolby guidelines suggested and i laughed at at first but sucker works. Although using a marantz when you de engage all the audyssey crap the dynaudio coherency is spooky good, had a couple of avsrs here and said they never heard better, people that have been to my 4 cedia demos. Also one builder that reps big name clients in Miami heard the holiday inn express 14 speaker 12 channel rig and went from his usual i let you know when i get a client doing a dedicated theater to "Move this system to Miami and I will bring each of my 8 current clients." He asked to come back again next weekend. That is extreme high praise as he is someone that has revolutionised the industry by taking a Client Advocacy Project Management role. So His interest is purely in the spirit of client advocacy. I have broken many a rule for speaker positioning here too. Sometimes I work very hard and get ok results, but other times amazing payouts come out, having floorstander type speakers all around gives a level of coherency to the system that is rare to quantify.
I would not suggest that a room with that many speakers and no room correction sounds bad. And while I am no Mark Seaton, I have been doing room audio calibration for about 25 years. Many hundreds of spaces. Only in two of those rooms did the right kind of EQ not make a VERY substantive improvement (one of those two rooms had 2 full walls of uncovered glass. Nothing would help). Maybe Peter's space would be the third -- but I highly doubt it.

And the more speakers involved, the more possible improvement in the audio subtleties (with the right kind of EQ in the right person's hands) that make the envelopment of the experience so much superior.

With systems like the Trinnov or Datasat (and others), I would never consider a very high end home theater without making use of that kind of technology --- full range speakers all around or not!!
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post #108 of 152 Old 06-22-2017, 08:43 AM
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Amazing!
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post #109 of 152 Old 06-22-2017, 11:43 AM
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Great upgrades! Yours and Rob Hahn's are two of my favorite theaters on AVS.

JBL Pro Cinema/JTR/JVC/Denon/Oppo/Roku Ultra/Elite Screens/Furman/Seatcraft/Acoustimac/AudioQuest
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post #110 of 152 Old 06-22-2017, 05:24 PM
 
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Cool

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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I would not suggest that a room with that many speakers and no room correction sounds bad. And while I am no Mark Seaton, I have been doing room audio calibration for about 25 years. Many hundreds of spaces. Only in two of those rooms did the right kind of EQ not make a VERY substantive improvement (one of those two rooms had 2 full walls of uncovered glass. Nothing would help). Maybe Peter's space would be the third -- but I highly doubt it.

And the more speakers involved, the more possible improvement in the audio subtleties (with the right kind of EQ in the right person's hands) that make the envelopment of the experience so much superior.

With systems like the Trinnov or Datasat (and others), I would never consider a very high end home theater without making use of that kind of technology --- full range speakers all around or not!!
Hi Chuck, I do not disagree. In fact i did my first melssa calibration on the second commissioned JBL Synthesis 1 back in 1993 after spending 3 days one on one with Floyd Toole.Last Xmas I bought a wvhs machine to show the very same process being performed on the first seasons of That Is Home Entertainment in HGTV ( the historical video evidence for youtube). I have a broken tape but it might not be the right one, after it was mended it broke again, so it might take time to find the segment. Hopes are high as it which would mean a bid i started at 600 in Japan for this vcr ended up costing 1700 landed, too rich for the Holiday Inn Express Lab.;(. Hope it is the right tape.

That being said 17 dollar pvc vertical blinds here at the Holiday Inn Express temporary lab's acoustical prowess are highly underrated. Makes a night day difference in fact over the irritating plain glass.



I do rely on these high end processors for the shows were we have won best atmos and had the press claim best in show. The situation after THE UKRAINE TRAINWRECK ,not becoming a millionaire with the 12 million dollars of lined up projects in Moscow, including the largest music performance and cinema public space in the country is that after losing 450k in revenue and 75g out of pocket in 2014, the fact is that I am still building up, and spending an average of 60 each past cedia despite best efforts not to has not helped, but that is my cross .

I did fly higher than icarus while researching carte blanche immersive arts (atmos and HDR laser projection) since its pre-inception(a few times in a Global 8000).


That is the great benefit of losing big, that there are many a silver lining in completely unanticipated new opportunities and paybacks.. This system here will literally give me the keys to the Magic City, IMMERSIONWISE, I NORMALLY BOAST OF BEING 10 years ahead of my time, my nickname in highschool was panasonic: "Slightly Ahead of Our Time". Actually the Slogan in Spanish is : ANTICIPANDO EL FUTURO, that is how I was viewed upon after i setup a Quadraphonic discotheque on my 10 grade High School Fair. 1974




Once i move on to the Arts and Entertainment high rent district in Miami to show my wares I will push the claim to 30 years at the vanguard, at that time i plan to offer the upgrade to the fancy ncore amps and processor from T. Right now this Marantz ATI Ncore mch amp is disruptively excellent, specially considering its remote control and plethora of neighbor friendly dsp modes and settings, except of course the audyssey is horrible.

I used this latest most outrageous claim last Saturday with this guy that deals with the prime waterfront projects in Miami, normally every time I show him something he says: Great I will let you know when i get a client building a dedicated theater; this time he said: I am coming next Saturday to take time for more demos and you can explain the systems and budgets to me. Put this system in Miami and I will bring by ALL OF MY CURRENT CLIENTS (8) to check it out. When I asked him jokingly was i right or wrong about being 30 years ahead? He said: no you weren't. Moral of the story this old geezer is finding great value in recycling ideas that are a throwback to this passion for surround sound and hdr looking images that realistic depict the dynamics and color volume of the caribbean.

It is all a payout. Next Year I will open up the Miami Lab to anyone here that wants the opportunity to look under the hood and say "It is not even 3 years into the future" I love transparency. The fact is that I am doing so many setup elements completely aside the atmos guidelines that it is impossible to recreate just by looking at it in a picture or even in person.

For now (because I still sell to the classes and eat with the masses), I have to continue the b-chain road to channel sufficiency, when the system is whole next year i will bring the big boys to shootout against my marantz ati ncore stack. But for now there are other challenges too to complete the IMMERSION 2047 system, the micro led wall screen, so I may be forced to demo the marantz/ati with the Dyns to sell the Altitude (with my proprietary NEIGHBORLY SOUNDGUARD 24/7 subroutines), for a while.

In any event I feel privileged to have suffered so much hardship to achieve this It's time for me to give back to Miami the City that brought High End Immersive cinema to the forefront in the early nineties.

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post #111 of 152 Old 06-22-2017, 05:34 PM
 
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Cool How do i deal with full frequency response speakers in a small room?

We do not need walter, adam or mark to tell us that having 10-22 full frequency speakers loading into a small room REQUIRES CALIBRATION. In this case there is a less sophisticated but completely effective (in this case study)approach. Leave the porthole plugs which creates a nice rolloff that when combined with 14 time aligned waves(im converging in the mlp, it certainly creates respectably awesome CLEAN deep bass. Bob Stuart used to talk about this great technicque, before they came out with their dsp sub that is.

IF THERE IS ONE BENEFIT THAT WE CAN TAKE FROM THIS, start with speakers that without no EQ. Sound the most musical to a musician, and you will save yourself a lot of tinkering and cost. I gave horn speakers a fair shake this last infocomm at the soundroom, all that I can say that in the past they have been the biggest mistakes of my career and they are long in the tooth, and they cannot be part of the systems of 2047. Sorry as good a job as the M-2 are, there is a serious element of realism missing from the water plot graph evidence decays.

Another lesson is don't have swiveling chairs next to the floorstander bed in 15 degree proximity or population because when one topples over, the domino effect is Extremely painful to watch ensue. Specially when it happens on the first day.,.

Would I use Dynaudio Esotar's in a room like Loge, Naiad, Triton, Hyperion and Elara? No. I use Alcons and Quested which have the same acoustical natural sounding musical signature but with unrestricted dynamics.

But dedicated home theaters in a house are 1 to 20 of these in Miami. Par for the course.



For multipurpose wall screen penthouses a floor standing bed channel solution will be found, one that will morph more towards a beolab8000 type looking speaker in 2.5 ways designs for everything but the widths and mains, however these rooms will sound like the holiday inn express. I can do it; Dynaudio seems up for the challenge.

I have been listening to this in surround since 1974. Neural X does wonders.

Array not only works it's necessary to eliminate very annoying FOCAL POINTS. the mlp.

toed in tops for crossfiring and the indispensible width channel, a system is not a system if designed without it.



Some claim that the listeners exclusion box needs to accommodate all seats, I have proven them completely wrong 3 seats ok 4 in a row ok, 2-3 rows ok. But that sole center spot, Oh How sweet it is. Myth Debunked.



The Holiday Inn express lab is the rudimentary GARAGE out of which the connected living room of future centuries will evolve from. Pardon it's imperfections.

The worse looking collection of chairs, i know, the cineak seat with d-box was 7,500 dealer cost just the seat and i had purchased to show client that was designing a Tsarist Decor Motif penthouse. lol.


Ugly as heck but very high quality, the other 2 are left over from the Marco Island Foreclosed beach house, some nice looking monokini clad babes have sat in them, so highly sentimental value. Right Chuck? he knows the one I'm saving the red chair as memento of.LOL

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post #112 of 152 Old 06-22-2017, 06:31 PM
 
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Where are Art's pictures from Wolfgang's?
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post #113 of 152 Old 06-23-2017, 04:23 AM
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@CINERAMAX Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful. And I absolutely love this comment:
Quote:
That is the great benefit of losing big, that there are many a silver lining in completely unanticipated new opportunities and paybacks.
Maybe not in exactly the same context, but that has most certainly been true in my life. (Joel 2:25 -- "God will restore what the Locusts have eaten").

Keep up the good work.
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post #114 of 152 Old 06-24-2017, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Where are Art's pictures from Wolfgang's?

Just got back last night...way too much trouble for me to use a phone. Write up and pics will appear in new thread.


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post #115 of 152 Old 06-24-2017, 07:55 AM
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I didn't mean to get this off tangent. Floyd has discussed this topic and others in the JBL Synthesis thread.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #116 of 152 Old 06-24-2017, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I didn't mean to get this off tangent. Floyd has discussed this topic and others in the JBL Synthesis thread.

No offence but as soon as Peter arrives tangent takes on a whole new level of meaning.


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post #117 of 152 Old 06-25-2017, 03:13 AM
 
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Tangential would imply some sort of linearity, I think I'm more elliptical, a looper? Good movie on K.

I think your system is da bomb, i know it is because the surrounds are supposed to be like mini versions of the M-2 , which along with the Ocean Way are the two best horn speakers I have heard. That and Mark can make great kit sound phenomenal, experience, know-how and intuition, when he did the emergency repair of the trinnov that crashed the BM settings for my cedia all night birthday bash. I must say he made neural-x and dts-x better than Arnaud and Walter setting, so highest compliment there and looking forward for some of hise presets added to Walter's at Brad's LOGE.

So if I was too fast to land on the thread to expound on how happy I am with the holiday Inn Express Rig's sound bubble without paying my compliments first, i do so now officially. I still say that Rob Hann wundertheater needs better overhead speakers. Your system is superior in that regard.

That being said an ATMOS Boost mode that is de-engageable? Bolt that sucker down, screw level matching of the tops. ATMOS/NEURAL-X boost mode all the time, have you heard the phantom menace since the sound upgrade?you are in for a thrill.
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post #118 of 152 Old 08-14-2017, 04:09 PM
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@Art Sonneborn , I immediately thought of wanting to re-watch this in your theater when I saw the announcement that Serenity would be released in 4k on October 17th.

Hopefully K-scape won't lag too much on availability and the updated, DTS:X soundtrack.
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post #119 of 152 Old 08-14-2017, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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@Art Sonneborn , I immediately thought of wanting to re-watch this in your theater when I saw the announcement that Serenity would be released in 4k on October 17th.

Hopefully K-scape won't lag too much on availability and the updated, DTS:X soundtrack.

In the immortal words of Austin Powers....yea baby ,yea !


Thanks for the heads up.


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post #120 of 152 Old 08-14-2017, 07:47 PM
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Art, is there a separate thread somewhere about your home theater get together? Would love to read about it since I couldn't be there for it.

Great news on the Serenity 4k disc - maybe I'll finally buy a 4k player, lol.

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