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post #1 of 156 Old 05-30-2017, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Sim2 Duo

I had the chance to get a detailed viewing of the pre-production Sim2 Duo at Alan's theater. We compared it to his high contrast modified 4K Barco Prometheus. All around Alan's modified Barco has been the best projector picture I've seen, although I have not seen the High Contrast Thor, it has bettered all the other laser projectors I've seen including Sony, JVC, and Cinemeccanica/ Barco 6p. This is the 3rd and most detailed viewing I've had of the Duo, each time has marked a major improvement. Since my last viewing the projector's have had major firmware upgrades and Alan is now driving them with a Lumagen Pro running beta HDR software. Alan has input a new HDR gama curve using the Lumagen.

In my previous viewing the Duo showed incredible contrast but did have some clipping, also it had good P3 color but could not match the modified Barco (REC 2020). This is no longer the case. The Duo driven by the Lumagen Pro clearly exceeds the Modified Barco and approaches flat panel HDR performance. The contrast in the Smurfs2 flame scene was reference level with no clipping and the colors matched the richness of the Barco. The 3D depth of the HDR picture (my HDR reference framework) was unmatched. The Barco is very good in this respect but almost looked flat in comparison. It was almost like the Sim2 took the Barco picture and added contrast pop and significant depth to the picture. The only area the Barco lead was sharpness. The Sim2 looked analog, like an oil painting, almost 70mm. The Barco was digital and razor sharp. Alan indicated he had removed a filter from the Sim2 and could make it sharper but he liked the more film like look, I can't say I disagree, for having such contrast pop the picture also had a soothing feel to it. The Barco also excelled when Alan gave it DC content. We could not compare with the Sim2 as it is consumer only, but the DC content had better color than the HDR bluray's. I hope this will change over time. Since none of the content was REC 2020, its not clear weather the Barco could have bested the Sim2, but with The UHD disks played (Smurfs 2 and Battleship) it could not. The Duo accepts a UHD signal but is downrezed to 1080p, given its HDR and Color performance this was not a visible issue for me.
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post #2 of 156 Old 05-30-2017, 03:48 PM
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Do you have plans to invest in the Barco ?


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post #3 of 156 Old 05-30-2017, 05:07 PM
 
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He cannot hang a Thor from his ceiling, the Prometheus was the original place holder but the Christie RGB is another contender with the sim 2 for Brad.

I Told Alan that sim 2 needs to put in the quasi 4k chip which is not that bad to really make it hdmi 2.0a.
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post #4 of 156 Old 05-30-2017, 08:00 PM
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Peter it would be nice to have everything but there is no perfect display they all fall short. We each have to decide which shortcoming we can live with.

Currently HDMI 2.0 projectors that claim HDR capability can indeed handshake with an HDR source "but" what they deliver onscreen falls short of HDR dynamic range. On the flip side the SIM2 can deliver 14f stops ( home version of Dolby cinema ) and double the dynamic range of standard HD "but" at 2k.

Resolution is only one parameter that makes up an image. When purchasing a new camera the majority of people will base their decision solely on pixel count never inquiring about the imager which can have a bigger impact on picture quality. Just as the 2k chip remains king of DLP contrast navigating to the 4k chip will cost contrast.

Sure 4k pixel count and its pixel fill is nice even though most 4k movie content is upscaled. That said even @ 2k the SIM2 still delivers 80% of all consumer movie content including UHD 4k at full resolution.

After screening the SIM2 HDR Duo I enjoyed a comment someone ( not Lasalle ) said, seeing true HDR at 2k trumps placebo HDR at 4k.

My intent is not to offend anyone who prefers 4k, there will always be the demand for more pixels just has the wish for more light. What ever your preference remember it will have a weakness.

In closing thanks to Lumagen and HD Fury HDMI 2.0 is no longer necessary to enjoy HDR.






.

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post #5 of 156 Old 05-31-2017, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post
Peter it would be nice to have everything but there is no perfect display they all fall short. We each have to decide which shortcoming we can live with.

Currently HDMI 2.0 projectors that claim HDR capability can indeed handshake with an HDR source "but" what they deliver onscreen falls short of HDR dynamic range. On the flip side the SIM2 can deliver 14f stops ( home version of Dolby cinema ) and double the dynamic range of standard HD "but" at 2k.

Resolution is only one parameter that makes up an image. When purchasing a new camera the majority of people will base their decision solely on pixel count never inquiring about the imager which can have a bigger impact on picture quality. Just as the 2k chip remains king of DLP contrast navigating to the 4k chip will cost contrast.

Sure 4k pixel count and its pixel fill is nice even though most 4k movie content is upscaled. That said even @ 2k the SIM2 still delivers 80% of all consumer movie content including UHD 4k at full resolution.

After screening the SIM2 HDR Duo I enjoyed a comment someone ( not Lasalle ) said, seeing true HDR at 2k trumps placebo HDR at 4k.

My intent is not to offend anyone who prefers 4k, there will always be the demand for more pixels just has the wish for more light. What ever your preference remember it will have a weakness.

In closing thanks to Lumagen and HD Fury HDMI 2.0 is no longer necessary to enjoy HDR.






.
On additional note on resolution, I tried to see the Duo's pixels on Alan's 11-12 foot screen but could not (from 10 feet away), I was a bit surprised until Alan reminded me that the 2 Duo projectors were putting double the 1080p pixel count on the screen. The only question I have is was the increased sharpness of the Barco due in part to 4K. Next viewing Alan will increase the sharpness on the Duo's and we will see. As mentioned above, its not clear to me that will automatically be an improvement.
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post #6 of 156 Old 05-31-2017, 07:27 AM
 
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Understood Alan. Just afraid to touch hd fury products... Or the lumagen don't need?

Hey you are back to the high gain screen right? that is the screen we liked when Walter, Brad and I came by to try the HTPC. It adds depth, slight hotspotting but there is a new screen coming that licks that.
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post #7 of 156 Old 06-02-2017, 06:33 AM
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At ISE Sim2 also used an external fidget to downscale the 4K blu-ray, it now has added this into the two projectors? Sim2 does have an XPR model, so that could indeed be a next step.

Al these glowing reports, make me sad the ISE demo fell short. It means I have not seen what it can do... Eventhough the both the CTO with a trackrecord back to Seleco, and Joe Kane were there to set it up right.

All the factory lights clipped, the firepit in Smurfs never looked anything like the real fire in the German HDR reel Philips demoed on the Sim2 4000 nits lcd monitor, two years ago. I focus on the highlights as these should not be diminished much by room conditions, unlike the dark areas of the picture.

My memory is beginning to let me down, but Sim2 made that 10000 nits Monitor the Warwick guys demoed at IBC, right. Warwick HDR approach in that demo does allow for bringing out highlights or dark areas, but my impression was not at the same time.

That was always part of the production switch style control handle demoed at NAB a few years ago by the same guys in the first spin-off from the university. That provided three exposure hdr capture and compression from camera to capture and production.

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post #8 of 156 Old 06-02-2017, 06:38 AM
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Peter, you never know how long they remain available. Ultimate is now discontinued as well, even when they don't remove hdcp unlike some poducts on Amazon. Dynamic control of HDR without metadata in the source could be a nice thing to have though. Now in the linker software, I believe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
On additional note on resolution, I tried to see the Duo's pixels on Alan's 11-12 foot screen but could not (from 10 feet away), I was a bit surprised until Alan reminded me that the 2 Duo projectors were putting double the 1080p pixel count on the screen. The only question I have is was the increased sharpness of the Barco due in part to 4K. Next viewing Alan will increase the sharpness on the Duo's and we will see. As mentioned above, its not clear to me that will automatically be an improvement.
Alan has a 12' wide screen.
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post #10 of 156 Old 06-02-2017, 10:59 AM
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Peter, you never know how long they remain available. Ultimate is now discontinued as well, even when they don't remove hdcp unlike some poducts on Amazon. Dynamic control of HDR without metadata in the source could be a nice thing to have though. Now in the linker software, I believe.
And it's not like HD Fury products cost that much - I've got bottles of wine that cost more than a Linker or Integral. Handy little devices.

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post #11 of 156 Old 06-02-2017, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
At ISE Sim2 also used an external fidget to downscale the 4K blu-ray, it now has added this into the two projectors? Sim2 does have an XPR model, so that could indeed be a next step.

Al these glowing reports, make me sad the ISE demo fell short. It means I have not seen what it can do... Eventhough the both the CTO with a trackrecord back to Seleco, and Joe Kane were there to set it up right.

All the factory lights clipped, the firepit in Smurfs never looked anything like the real fire in the German HDR reel Philips demoed on the Sim2 4000 nits lcd monitor, two years ago. I focus on the highlights as these should not be diminished much by room conditions, unlike the dark areas of the picture.
.
Maybe Alan can comment on this, my understanding is that Joe's initial gama curve was at 10000 nits and caused clipping on most UHD material. The UHD material seems to be mastered at different Nit levels so the curve may need adjustment on a disc by disc basis. The new lumgan Pro HDR software has that capability so no clipping. One caveat, it may also soften the image.
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Quote:
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Maybe Alan can comment on this, my understanding is that Joe's initial gama curve was at 10000 nits and caused clipping on most UHD material. The UHD material seems to be mastered at different Nit levels so the curve may need adjustment on a disc by disc basis. The new lumgan Pro HDR software has that capability so no clipping. One caveat, it may also soften the image.
Taking away some of what 4K resolution source material has over 2K. It's an odd compromise to make if you ask me.
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post #13 of 156 Old 06-03-2017, 01:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
One caveat, it may also soften the image.
It softened the heck out of the thor projector, looking waxy, I yanked those hdmi cables out quicker than you could say Jack robinson.

Wait until alan gets the beta alchemy in the next few days, no thi no that, and also a Kaleidescape which takes no prisoners in the uhd image department, way way way cleaner and transparent than any uhd player on the market, and you do not have to tweak picture settings , they are all mastered as homogeneous as possible. Try that with an oppo 203!
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post #14 of 156 Old 06-03-2017, 01:48 AM
 
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And it's not like HD Fury products cost that much - I've got bottles of wine that cost more than a Linker or Integral. Handy little devices.
Yes but at it's highest my billing rate has been 350 per hour. 2 months putzing with the hd fury boxes,and diverse oppos and a series one projector. What it's worth? thats a fine chateau lafite vintage buddy.

Kaleidescape feeding direct alchemy 2.0a hdmi. How the Thor has been developed and the Prometheus HDR.
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post #15 of 156 Old 06-06-2017, 12:16 PM
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Yes but at it's highest my billing rate has been 350 per hour. 2 months putzing with the hd fury boxes,and diverse oppos and a series one projector. What it's worth? thats a fine chateau lafite vintage buddy.

Kaleidescape feeding direct alchemy 2.0a hdmi. How the Thor has been developed and the Prometheus HDR.
I'd rather have the wine. Carry on..............
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You, Brad and Jeff.
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post #17 of 156 Old 06-08-2017, 11:21 AM
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You, Brad and Jeff.
I'll bring something good to Cedia this year. The question is, which wine ?

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post #18 of 156 Old 06-16-2017, 10:01 AM
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Al these glowing reports, make me sad the ISE demo fell short. It means I have not seen what it can do... Eventhough the both the CTO with a trackrecord back to Seleco, and Joe Kane were there to set it up right.
Unfortunately the demo took place in a room with white walls and ceiling and floors not the ideal room to evaluate a high contrast product.
The SIM2 HDR Duo delivers true black better then all its competition but unlike all other claimed HDR projectors this system delivers 14f stops at 300nits.
The SIM2 does not claim HDR just by doubling the projectors. The fact is that the optics of just one projector is "closed", which permits an higher contrast that the other. Only few people, who are working on optics since years, know that the lost brightness is not linear.
In other words, the 35% loss of high brightness means 150% or even lower black level, due to the angle of light passing through the lens and the shape of the baffle inside the lens. There is more to this I cannot share but the end result is a image that looks like a bright CRT, it is to my eye the closest to a CRT but with gobs of brightness. I have yet to see anything that comes close it is the best projection system on the market when placed in a room optimized for projection. Remember even HD rec709 source benefits from the dynamic range expansion. No need for HDMI 2.0, HDR metadata can be loaded to the projector and put into memory. There is a lot of assumption that is incorrect but that is also because the product is so new and not much marketing information as of yet.
The current XPR products from all manufactures lack contrast.
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post #19 of 156 Old 06-16-2017, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought I'd post my Infocomm observations here since after the show Alan and I drove back and looked at the Sim2 Duo that he had just set up for 3D.

Best picture -Sony C-LCD, nothing even close (blew away the Samsung panels). The display was 25+ feet wide with reference level HDR. The best way I can describe it would be to compare it to how the best LG OLED looks in a very dark room. Except the Sony looked that way on a bright wall ( no overhead cover) with lights shining down around it. I can only imagine how it would look in a darkened theater, it must be hitting 50 f-stops. At first I thought it was the best anti-glare screen I've seen, then I realized it was so bright it shone through glare. The HDR depth of picture was as deep as I've seen, all the projector pictures at the show looked flat and 2D by comparison.

Best projector picture - Christie RGB laser (pre-production) - Richest, Fullest color of any projector, the Blue (and Blue and Red) laser pictures looked washed out in comparison. The main draw back was the lack of contrast made the picture look flat and 2D compared to the C-LCD. Sony did not have its RGB laser prototype there and Barco was showing Blue Laser.

Best Blue Laser picture - Epson 25K lumen , Not a cinema projector, no UHD or 3D and pricey ($100K) but it really gets the color right (I've previously posted on their white light correction filters). Again limited contrast.

I was a little disappointed with the Christie Red and Blue laser as it didn't seem to improve on the color of the blue laser projectors shown. You could really see the color deficit of the phosphor projectors in the Sony and Christie Booths. At Sony you could stand between the C-LCD and Blue laser displays and do a direct compare. This was also true at Christie where the RGB laser and Red,Blue laser pictures were about 15 feet apart. None of the projectors had anything approaching the HDR depth of picture seen in the C-LCD, OLED or the Sim2 Duo.

After the show we briefly watched the Sim2 Duo in 3D. It was a bright, with rich colors, and a very extended 3D effect. I have not seen a projector that can match it yet, but the market is moving quickly. The Sim2 is still a work in progress as it seems to get better each time it gets firmware updates.
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Hi Brad and Alan, it was great seeing you there. So you see why my enthusiasm for the christie it will be a great platform in the future specially when they do sequential light engines for infinite contrast.

There was actually an image that I think gave the Cledis a good run for the money. It used a .95 pitch led and had some revolutionary new backpanel tech.

Id be very happy with this as a main display.



Meet Camilia my new girlfriend.



Looks like America will be the number one tv manufacturer again.

Here is info on their hdr.
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post #21 of 156 Old 06-17-2017, 06:13 AM
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Peter and Brad now that I think about it unless Christie was using a vibrating screen I did not see any speckle on their RGB laser. Could be do to the use of the dedicated green laser diode.
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By chance did you see the DPI Insight 4K laser projector or Highlite 4K projector?


Quote:
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I thought I'd post my Infocomm observations here since after the show Alan and I drove back and looked at the Sim2 Duo that he had just set up for 3D.

Best picture -Sony C-LCD, nothing even close (blew away the Samsung panels). The display was 25+ feet wide with reference level HDR. The best way I can describe it would be to compare it to how the best LG OLED looks in a very dark room. Except the Sony looked that way on a bright wall ( no overhead cover) with lights shining down around it. I can only imagine how it would look in a darkened theater, it must be hitting 50 f-stops. At first I thought it was the best anti-glare screen I've seen, then I realized it was so bright it shone through glare. The HDR depth of picture was as deep as I've seen, all the projector pictures at the show looked flat and 2D by comparison.

Best projector picture - Christie RGB laser (pre-production) - Richest, Fullest color of any projector, the Blue (and Blue and Red) laser pictures looked washed out in comparison. The main draw back was the lack of contrast made the picture look flat and 2D compared to the C-LCD. Sony did not have its RGB laser prototype there and Barco was showing Blue Laser.

Best Blue Laser picture - Epson 25K lumen , Not a cinema projector, no UHD or 3D and pricey ($100K) but it really gets the color right (I've previously posted on their white light correction filters). Again limited contrast.

I was a little disappointed with the Christie Red and Blue laser as it didn't seem to improve on the color of the blue laser projectors shown. You could really see the color deficit of the phosphor projectors in the Sony and Christie Booths. At Sony you could stand between the C-LCD and Blue laser displays and do a direct compare. This was also true at Christie where the RGB laser and Red,Blue laser pictures were about 15 feet apart. None of the projectors had anything approaching the HDR depth of picture seen in the C-LCD, OLED or the Sim2 Duo.

After the show we briefly watched the Sim2 Duo in 3D. It was a bright, with rich colors, and a very extended 3D effect. I have not seen a projector that can match it yet, but the market is moving quickly. The Sim2 is still a work in progress as it seems to get better each time it gets firmware updates.
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post #23 of 156 Old 06-17-2017, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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By chance did you see the DPI Insight 4K laser projector or Highlite 4K projector?
Unfortunately not, we were on a tight timeline. I would have liked to seen DPI, NEC, and the production JVC.
I guess I'll have to wait until CEDIA. My assumption was Sony would have the best LCOS blue laser, Christie the best Red,Blue laser DLP, and Barco the best blue laser DLP. I should have more time at CEDIA to see if that was correct. CEDIA also has more dark theater rooms set up for viewing complemented by good sound systems.
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The dpi 4k laser benefited from stewarts high ambient light seamless/microperfable screen the Fill Blank later.. Really nice, although the barco 4k was impressive IF you control the demo content.


You are correct. Still the lcos showstopper was a stack of smaller ones. I still don't like the 5000. sorry.
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post #25 of 156 Old 06-17-2017, 08:36 AM
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What is the black level/On-Off of the Camellia?
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post #26 of 156 Old 06-17-2017, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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The dpi 4k laser benefited from stewarts high ambient light seamless/microperfable screen the Fill Blank later.. Really nice, although the barco 4k was impressive IF you control the demo content.


You are correct. Still the lcos showstopper was a stack of smaller ones. I still don't like the 5000. sorry.
And here I thought you were LCOS intolerant
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post #27 of 156 Old 06-17-2017, 08:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post
Peter and Brad now that I think about it unless Christie was using a vibrating screen I did not see any speckle on their RGB laser. Could be do to the use of the dedicated green laser diode.
The speckle is something you cannot look for on regular content, they do stuff in the new light engine like barco and nec to ameliorate the speckle. To really appreciate the absence of speckle you need to see the ultimate screen demo, then you will be spoiled for life because it acts like a 20% MTF turbo boost pulling out a layer of microactivity noise that blurs the image. Anyone who buys an RGB Laser, mor that builds his cinema for future RGB laser absolutely needs to pony up for the Ultimate screen, like a good spatial color calibration with the correct instrumentation once you are used to that image the rest is crap.


BY THE SAME TOKEN any speaker manufacturer, regardless of how good they are that declares war against HDR projection by refusing to work on hdr screens because they prefer woven over the awesome RealD Nano perforation will face the direst of consequences as I will bury them, whether I am their very best client and promoter they will find themselves facing IMMERSION DEFCON 1, a clear and present danger that I have given them a 10 day ultimatum to be with us or against us. I had a 40 minute argument with a dear sound system manufacturer, that I brought to CEDIA, the argument because I am cuban some of the attendees of the audio demonstration were asking about the ricky ricardo screaming sound object that sounded so realistic as if coming outside the room.

I don't care if you are related to me or not DO NOT MESS with the Vision of Immersionland, I giveth and i will taketh away quicker that you can say Jack Robinson. I will win best HDR and Atmos this year at Cedia, not best hdr in one room and best atmos in another one. Taker already got a sample of the demo here in the holiday inn express lab. Amazing how short sighted these european manufacturers often get without the occasional kick in the rump. They cannot see what is best for them when it is staring them in the face.
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post #28 of 156 Old 06-17-2017, 09:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
What is the black level/On-Off of the Camellia?
18,000-1 Dynamic Range.

It does not have the black oled like glass bias that cledis, although that may be an issue or sony overengineering if not borderline crushing blacks a bit. The levels looked correct to the eye, and believe me there was plenty of reference of bad giant lcd panels that had poor blacks. This silicon core is the one to judge against the cledia, and the size is just perfect. They also need to change their name from something that sounds like antihemorroidal to something sexy as CINERAMAX, i'll be gentle with my licensing arrangement for some kind of collaboration demo research unit.

They got the screen size right, 16 by 9 feet is too big for a living room 11.2 feet wide is just perfect and 6.7 gives you room to deal with center channels.

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post #29 of 156 Old 06-18-2017, 01:46 AM
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Actually the Camellia is commercially available product, was introduced last year, it is still SMD, not COB. So three seperate Led Packages grouped together. COB Technology was announced at ISE 2016, but launch has been delayed. This year at ISE it was shown as LISA, combination of COB (Chip on Board) LED and a new manufacturing process embedding the front of the leds providing a smooth and protected surface. This should be introduced at Infocomm as product, in an 1.9 mm pitch. There was another vid online where the SiliconCore representative that the drive for lower pitch allowed by this was for 2018 and beyond.

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post #30 of 156 Old 06-18-2017, 05:29 AM
 
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So 2018? Perfect Timing for this:
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