Is anything out now as good as Logic7? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Is anything out now as good as Logic7?

So my Lexicon MC-8B is dying and I'm resorting to buying a used one here. At some point my luck may run out and I may not be able to replace a Lexicon Processor.

So the reason I keep my Lexicon is Logic 7. I play normal 2 channel stereo ALOT and have 7.2 setup and the way Logic 7 stears music to use all my speakers and create a convincing multi channel sound out of it is simply amazing to me and something I could not do with out. Been using Lexicon pre/pro's since 2002.

I've asked around before and it does not seem any of the new Algorithms are as good as Logic 7 in converting Stereo -- > multi channel.

Does anyone have any experience with ANY audio technology that is available on modern processors that works as well as Logic 7 as far as real time conversion of Stereo to Multi channel?
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post #2 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 11:02 AM
 
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neural x.
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post #3 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
neural x.
Thanks for the Info

What hardware has the best and most option laden version of this? Does it have all the config options of Logic 7?

Anyone have any direct listening experience of Logic7 VS Neural x for Music?
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post #4 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 12:23 PM
 
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entry level high value if you do not need much room eq (depends on how musical your speakers are positioning etc so you bypass audyssey after calibrating levels and time arrivals) Marantz 8802a.
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post #5 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
Anyone have any direct listening experience of Logic7 VS Neural x for Music?
Yes, and they don't sound much alike with 2-channel music. For example: Neural:X, like its predecessor (Neo:X), has a mono-ish surround field without the kind of directionality that L7 had. PLIIx is more similar to L7 (both use broadband steering), so you might want to look for a used 7.1 pre-pro that came out prior to Atmos (i.e., prior to PLIIx being replaced by DSU).
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post #6 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 12:45 PM
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Used Harman Kardon receivers from 7-12 years ago have Logic7, depending on model.
I picked up a used HK with L7 for ~$50 from craigslist just to try L7.

Just FYI for a low cost processor if you use external amps (need a model with 7.1 lineouts of course)
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post #7 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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So it sounds like currently there is nothing that really matches the quality of Logic 7 for muic that was present on Lexicon pre/pro's

Really a shame

The old HK receivers had Logic7 but a dumbed down non adjustable version of it.
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post #8 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes, and they don't sound much alike with 2-channel music. For example: Neural:X, like its predecessor (Neo:X), has a mono-ish surround field without the kind of directionality that L7 had. PLIIx is more similar to L7 (both use broadband steering), so you might want to look for a used 7.1 pre-pro that came out prior to Atmos (i.e., prior to PLIIx being replaced by DSU).
My Lexicon has PLIIx and I've played with and was a poor substitute to Logic7 so I never really used it.
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post #9 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
My Lexicon has PLIIx and I've played with and was a poor substitute to Logic7 so I never really used it.
The newer immersive upmixers (Dolby Surround, Neural:X, Auro-Matic) are even further away.

Sanjay
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post #10 of 46 Old 07-10-2017, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The newer immersive upmixers (Dolby Surround, Neural:X, Auro-Matic) are even further away.
Wow that sucks, you'd figure we'd get better as time goes on, Really sucks how Logic7 and Lexicon were buried by HK
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post #11 of 46 Old 07-20-2017, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes, and they don't sound much alike with 2-channel music. For example: Neural:X, like its predecessor (Neo:X), has a mono-ish surround field without the kind of directionality that L7 had. PLIIx is more similar to L7 (both use broadband steering), so you might want to look for a used 7.1 pre-pro that came out prior to Atmos (i.e., prior to PLIIx being replaced by DSU).
As I add Atmos/DTS-X to my setup with a Marantz prepro, this is one reason why I've kept my Pioneer gear (SC-09TX & SC-68) in the overall system - to keep PLIIx as an option, especially for music. It made my wiring, control complicated to be able to drive amps from all 3 devices, it will be worth it (to me) to keep all formats.

As I know you have kept your MC12 for L7, the same reasons.

Steve
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post #12 of 46 Old 07-20-2017, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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So seems the general concensus is for stereo music their is nothing on the market as good as Logic7 and the newer DSP algorithms are actually getting worse for this purpose. Basic gist is I listen to alot of 2 channel music and want to use all my speakers when I do that and Logic7 gives a really natural sounding multi channel estimation of the stereo audio. I'm obviously not a purist and found a sweet spot with Lexicon and Logic 7 which I've used the last 15 years or so and while it still works for me I would have liked to move to an Atmos/DTS X/Auro 3d setup and been able to play my stereo music in an even more enveloping scenario.

Joy, looks like I need to stock up on used Lexicon Pre/Pros on Ebay

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post #13 of 46 Old 07-20-2017, 07:34 PM
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You might ask Floyd his thoughts over on the JBL Synthesis thread. He might have some alternatives for you.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #14 of 46 Old 07-21-2017, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
So seems the general concensus is for stereo music their is nothing on the market as good as Logic7 and the newer DSP algorithms are actually getting worse for this purpose. Basic gist is I listen to alot of 2 channel music and want to use all my speakers when I do that and Logic7 gives a really natural sounding multi channel estimation of the stereo audio. I'm obviously not a purist and found a sweet spot with Lexicon and Logic 7 which I've used the last 15 years or so and while it still works for me I would have liked to move to an Atmos/DTS X/Auro 3d setup and been able to play my stereo music in an even more enveloping scenario.

Joy, looks like I need to stock up on used Lexicon Pre/Pros on Ebay
You may want to evaluate Auromatic, of the 3 immersive upmixers, its the only one initially designed for music (as was Auro 3D). Music upmixing is definitely a matter of personal preference. I have not liked the 5.1/7.1 upmixers from Dolby or DTS as to my ears they compromise the precision of the front sound stage. At CEDIA I heard Auromatic upmix a 5.1 Santana bluray and compared it to Atmos, to my ears Auromatic was much better. I also got to hear an Auro3D 9.1 jazz recording which was the most immersive music recording I've heard. They did not upmix any 2 channel music at the CEDIA demo, so I can't comment on that.
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post #15 of 46 Old 07-21-2017, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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So what is the most viable Pre/Pro with Auromatic/Auro 3d?
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post #16 of 46 Old 07-21-2017, 12:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
They did not upmix any 2 channel music at the CEDIA demo, so I can't comment on that.
That is because I curated the demo and I have never owned 2 channel worth upmixing.

SACD and DVD-A 5.1 is glorious in Neural X, but i grew up being surrounded by musicians so i like the "in the middle of the soup" perspective.

And my apology to the original poster as I completely overlooked the small 2-channel part. Not Qualified to have responded in the 1st place, am afraid.
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post #17 of 46 Old 07-21-2017, 02:06 PM
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So what is the most viable Pre/Pro with Auromatic/Auro 3d?
Marantz/Denon, Datasat, Steinway Lyngdof, Storm, Trinnov. I believe there are some recent multi-channel units that may support it as well. The Emotiva RMC-1 will also support it when it becomes available.
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post #18 of 46 Old 07-22-2017, 10:43 AM
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post #19 of 46 Old 07-23-2017, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Id like to believe but after the MP20 Ill have to see it to believe it, but at least it's something. Id kill to get a consumer product with the QuantumLogic they were touting in 2011. Id love to take stereo and upmix it to something like Atmos with height channels
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post #20 of 46 Old 07-23-2017, 04:16 PM
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Id like to believe but after the MP20 Ill have to see it to believe it, but at least it's something. Id kill to get a consumer product with the QuantumLogic they were touting in 2011. Id love to take stereo and upmix it to something like Atmos with height channels
I'm sitting here as I type this listening to a 2-channel version of Steely Dan using DTS Neo X through my Datasat LS10 with a 5.1 Speaker setup. I used to have an MC12B and thought I could never be happy without Logic 7; boy was I wrong.

However, that being said, Lexicon does allow a lot of customization with their Logic7. If you are a tweaker, then maybe Logic7 is what you need.

Current Equipment: Datasat LS10 w/ Atmos and DIRAC. ATI 6005, AT527NC, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), SR3's sides, LR3's (rears), Seaton Submersive HP, Marantz VP15s1, 123" diag 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve screen, Oppo BDP-103, Palliser Flicks Theater Seating AC Power: Eaton whole-house surge protector at main panel, three dedicated 20 amp circuits, Surgex XR315 surge protector at equipment rack, Cyberpower 1400VA/900 watt, true sine wave UPS.
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post #21 of 46 Old 07-23-2017, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm sitting here as I type this listening to a 2-channel version of Steely Dan using DTS Neo X through my Datasat LS10 with a 5.1 Speaker setup. I used to have an MC12B and thought I could never be happy without Logic 7; boy was I wrong.

However, that being said, Lexicon does allow a lot of customization with their Logic7. If you are a tweaker, then maybe Logic7 is what you need.
Yea I'm a tweaker but once I hit a sweet spot I'll leave it alone. I don't really trust DSP's on default it would be a pleasant surprise for any DSP to sound good to me right out of the box.

Good to hear though someone with experience listening to Logic7 happy with another DSP happy with something else so maybe there is hope.
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post #22 of 46 Old 07-23-2017, 04:52 PM
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Yea I'm a tweaker but once I hit a sweet spot I'll leave it alone. I don't really trust DSP's on default it would be a pleasant surprise for any DSP to sound good to me right out of the box.

Good to hear though someone with experience listening to Logic7 happy with another DSP happy with something else so maybe there is hope.
I feel your pain though. I went through a similar search process back in 2013 when I started having issues with my MC12. After owning nothing but Lexicon SSP's since my first (DC-1) in 1999 I was reluctant to leave the brand behind. But, time marched on and I wanted to stay up with current technologies.

Lexicon's MusicLogic7 is what converted me from a 2-channel snob into a multi-channel music fan. There's nothing like being in the center of the music!

Current Equipment: Datasat LS10 w/ Atmos and DIRAC. ATI 6005, AT527NC, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), SR3's sides, LR3's (rears), Seaton Submersive HP, Marantz VP15s1, 123" diag 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve screen, Oppo BDP-103, Palliser Flicks Theater Seating AC Power: Eaton whole-house surge protector at main panel, three dedicated 20 amp circuits, Surgex XR315 surge protector at equipment rack, Cyberpower 1400VA/900 watt, true sine wave UPS.
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post #23 of 46 Old 08-11-2017, 12:18 PM
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Wow that sucks, you'd figure we'd get better as time goes on, Really sucks how Logic7 and Lexicon were buried by HK
That's because there is little to no general interest in surround upmixers tailored specifically for music. Almost nobody seems to upmix music.

This mostly because the type of people who listen to music on expensive systems claim to be "purists" or whatever and choose not to use it.

Dolby slapped on a center spread option for their newest upmixer but no dedicated mode for music. That should tell you something.

DTS:X Neural:X is just.... awful for music.

PL2x is still the best for music if you can get it, that is.
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post #24 of 46 Old 08-11-2017, 10:07 PM
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Not designed for consumer sound systems, but for around $10K you can integrate quantum logic into an existing multichannel system. Haven't had the pleasure of hearing quantum logic in a home setting, so I can't speak to how it compares to logic7, which I love. But it isn't impossible to do.
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post #25 of 46 Old 08-16-2017, 06:49 PM
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So it sounds like currently there is nothing that really matches the quality of Logic 7 for muic that was present on Lexicon pre/pro's

Really a shame
Not to worry about the shame.. There is a MUCH better receiver! The Datasat LS10!
Prelude: I have owned several Lexicon products, over past 20 years - the first Dc1, Dc2, mc1, Mc12. DC2 was junk. Rest were good, for their time period.
I tried an Integra (years ago) and recently the Emotiva.. They had lots of bells and whistles.. lots of features, codecs.. but not the pure high end audio quality of MC 12, which I have used for probably 10 years.... Until I bought the Datasat LS10. Some prior MC12 owners were quite happy with Emotiva.. But at least on MC12 owner and forum member here suggested to me that the Datasat would be superior, even for Dolby Digital.. Thanks to him, I got the LS10.. It is an amazing processor.. Far superior to any I have ever heard and far superior to the MC12!
If your budget is limited, just get the most basic Datasat LS10 and you will be very pleased. There are a couple of forum members here, with whom I can put you in touch with, who will get you a discounted datasat. Even without the Atoms, the Dirac etc.. the LS10 is quite superior to the MC12.. You will hear the superior quality, even before you set it up.. And it comes with parametric equalizer.. which is quite useful.

PS: My comments are about general home theater use.. I don't know anything about pure audio/music perfomance of the Datasat Vs MC12.
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post #26 of 46 Old 08-19-2017, 05:45 PM
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Not to worry about the shame.. There is a MUCH better receiver! The Datasat LS10!
Prelude: I have owned several Lexicon products, over past 20 years - the first Dc1, Dc2, mc1, Mc12. DC2 was junk. Rest were good, for their time period.
I tried an Integra (years ago) and recently the Emotiva.. They had lots of bells and whistles.. lots of features, codecs.. but not the pure high end audio quality of MC 12, which I have used for probably 10 years.... Until I bought the Datasat LS10. Some prior MC12 owners were quite happy with Emotiva.. But at least on MC12 owner and forum member here suggested to me that the Datasat would be superior, even for Dolby Digital.. Thanks to him, I got the LS10.. It is an amazing processor.. Far superior to any I have ever heard and far superior to the MC12!
If your budget is limited, just get the most basic Datasat LS10 and you will be very pleased. There are a couple of forum members here, with whom I can put you in touch with, who will get you a discounted datasat. Even without the Atoms, the Dirac etc.. the LS10 is quite superior to the MC12.. You will hear the superior quality, even before you set it up.. And it comes with parametric equalizer.. which is quite useful.

PS: My comments are about general home theater use.. I don't know anything about pure audio/music perfomance of the Datasat Vs MC12.
Dear Swanlee, If you search for INVOLVE AUDIO SURROUND MASTER, you will discover the answer to your LOGIC 7 heartache. This small Australian company has produced a no frills magic box that is superior to the various LEXICON implementations. They went back to SANSUI’s VARIOMATRIX, and have via software produced a stunning multi-channel sound field that will kill you when you hear it. The device is no frills only, but I promise it will alleviate the pain you now are feeling.
I still utilize, on occasion, the side channel outputs from one of my Lexicon units, but front and rear outputs are all SURROUND MASTER. I’m fully into DOLBY ATMOS for films and some classical pieces, but if you want to be discretely surrounded there is no other choice today. I believe it is still under $500.
I hope you rediscover bliss.
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post #27 of 46 Old 01-09-2019, 08:55 AM
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So now that these Lexicon pre/processors are cheap should I get one?

Swanlee et al:
Now that these Lexicon pre/processors are cheap should I get one in order to try Lexicon Logic 7 and the other sound modes on this processor?
I have a Naim 272 pre streamer/DAC/preamp, Naim 150x 50w power amp, Naim Ariva 2.5 way speakers.
I would get this mainly to listen to 2 channel streamed music from Tidal but in a 4 or more speaker set up. Also my Samsung Smart TV sound is wired into my Naim system.
So would I play this Lexicon pre/pro into my Naim power amp? But the Naim amp only has 2 speaker outputs!? And if the Lexicon MC-12 is a preamp, how come it has all these speaker outputs? Shouldn't they come from the power amp? (I know nothing about surround sound and HT!). How could an MC-12 fit with a Naim system?

AND

And if I bought 2 inexpensive 2nd hand rear speakers and/or a centre channel speaker to listen to the MC-12 thru what should they be?
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post #28 of 46 Old 01-09-2019, 08:56 AM
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Swanlee et al:
Now that these Lexicon pre/processors are cheap should I get one in order to try Lexicon Logic 7 and the other sound modes on this processor?
I have a Naim 272 pre streamer/DAC/preamp, Naim 150x 50w power amp, Naim Ariva 2.5 way speakers.
I would get this mainly to listen to 2 channel streamed music from Tidal but in a 4 or more speaker set up. Also my Samsung Smart TV sound is wired into my Naim system.
So would I play this Lexicon pre/pro into my Naim power amp? But the Naim amp only has 2 speaker outputs!? And if the Lexicon MC-12 is a preamp, how come it has all these speaker outputs? Shouldn't they come from the power amp? (I know nothing about surround sound and HT!). How could an MC-12 fit with a Naim system?

AND

And if I bought 2 inexpensive 2nd hand rear speakers and/or a centre channel speaker to listen to the MC-12 thru what should they be?
And - has anyone tried the INVOLVE AUDIO SURROUND MASTER - and is it really as good as or better than a Lexicon MC-12 or similar?
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post #29 of 46 Old 01-09-2019, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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And - has anyone tried the INVOLVE AUDIO SURROUND MASTER - and is it really as good as or better than a Lexicon MC-12 or similar?
While interesting I'm leary about buying a separate box for these types of things also since it would be locked down to one source and only analog outputs.
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post #30 of 46 Old 01-09-2019, 10:58 AM
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So if I did buy a Lexicon processor now, how could I wire it up to a Naim 272 streamer and Naim power amp so that the Naim still drives the front speakers and the Lexicon MC-12 drives the other 3 speakers? thanks
Jim

Last edited by HiFidactyl; 01-15-2019 at 01:19 AM.
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