Barco Loki Vs Sony 5000 Vs Balder Vs Vivitek - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
According to those who met with them at Cedia TI isn't interested and thinks they're competitive as is. They're instead working on smaller XPR chips which will have even worse contrast performance and a way to overlay 4 images for perceived resolution increase instead of just two.
At least Panasonic who was the first to do DLP pixel shift with its Quad Pixel Drive, uses the 0.9" DMDs, on top of a four position shift.

There is also 0.33" DMD with built-in XPR to get 1080P.
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post #32 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 08:25 AM
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Barco Loki Vs Sony 5000 Vs Balder Vs Vivitek

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Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
I am certainly not a projection expert by any means but my understanding is that the chips are the least significant factor. Optics and processing are the X Factors

As for contrast, the optical engine is certainly important too, same is the lens and to a certain degree processing, but coping with the - in my opinion - quite extremely weak performance of these XPR DLP chips makes it practically impossible even for Barco to produce sufficient levels... Have anyone seen any designs that are actually able to produce anything but muddy grey blacks from the XPR chips (in any size and form)?


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post #33 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
...Until you try to display a UHD or 1080p test pattern with single pixel detail. Then the difference will become immediately obvious.
If this is accurate, I need to re-think the Barco Balder consideration.
As far as the prior discussion on the chips go: The purpose of me starting this thread was, with all due respect, hoping for less for the technical arguments. We all know in general, the Chip situation between DLP. LCD, Lcos etc..

I was hoping to hear from people who have seen both the Barco and Sony 5000. I am particularly interested in comments from current/prior owners of the Sony 1100/5000 or prior Barco models. I have positive opinion on the Sony 1100/5000 (not 880 because of its lens and yes, I am familiar with the contrast degradation issue of 1100 and do not wish to discuss it here). As I have stated in the preceding, the best picture i have EVER seen was from a Barco.
Irrespective of the list prices, the cost difference to me between the Barco Balder and the Sony 5000, seems to be $10,000.. So, this is a $10k question..
Some of the comments are making me nervous about the Barco Balder.
I wish someone like Art or EKKI had seen the Barco Balder.. I would simply take their word for it..
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post #34 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 10:43 AM
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I would vote for the 5000 all day. Oh wait, I did.

Especially after the latest firmware. Sony support hard to beat...
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post #35 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by audvid View Post
I wish someone like Art or EKKI had seen the Barco Balder.. I would simply take their word for it..
Sorry but taking someones word on such a purchase makes little sense. I'm sure there is a dealer out there willing to let you try out both if you are willing to buy.
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post #36 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ivanpino View Post
Sorry but taking someones word on such a purchase makes little sense. I'm sure there is a dealer out there willing to let you try out both if you are willing to buy.
I have been reading Art's posts for 15+ years. Ekki is an expert in all things Video.. I would trust their opinions, implicitly. There are several other fellow members on this forum, who are also very good. Usually, they talk less and when they talk, they know what they are talking about.

I don't want to go to a nearby dealer because if I am not going to buy from him. It would not be fair to him.
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post #37 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
I would vote for the 5000 all day. Oh wait, I did.

Especially after the latest firmware. Sony support hard to beat...
Have you seen the Barco Balder? Sony 5000 discount seems huge, compared to the Barco, considering Balder is almost half the list price of 5000. Someone offered the sony for only $10k above the discounted Barco Balder price but the 5000 is still above my budget.. Maybe I will just wait for a year.. I am in no rush.. I will see if my Wolf 1000 gets sold.. if not, I will use it for another year. Maybe you would have an amazing 5000 deal new/used for me at that time!
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post #38 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 01:24 PM
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I would vote for the 5000 as well. I imagine it will be my next step up from the 1100. I think the Barco will have excellent color and sharpness but I am not sure how the black floor would suit you. I would definitely take a look at the Balder if you can.
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post #39 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 01:30 PM
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Has anyone noticed any noise issues with the Barco image?
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post #40 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
...but I am not sure how the black floor would suit you. ...
Any particular reason for your comment? I assumed that, it being a laser, it would have excellent blacks and contrast - because light can be shut off as opposed to a lamp that blacks depend only on the DLP chip. Have you seen a Barco or a .9" chip with black floor issues?
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post #41 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by audvid View Post
I have been reading Art's posts for 15+ years. Ekki is an expert in all things Video.. I would trust their opinions, implicitly. There are several other fellow members on this forum, who are also very good. Usually, they talk less and when they talk, they know what they are talking about.

I don't want to go to a nearby dealer because if I am not going to buy from him. It would not be fair to him.
What about Darinp or Kris Deering?


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Has anyone noticed any noise issues with the Barco image?
I did see noise in the DPI faux k pjs, but I can't be sure if it was the pj or the source.

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post #42 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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What about Darinp or Kris Deering?
I just didn't recall all the names.. there are a few more too.. I will remember when I seen their screen names..
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post #43 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 04:50 PM
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I think Kris has close to the same size screen as you do. You might want to read his review of the JVC in Sound and Vision.

I have never been a big fan of the perf screens, but unto each their own. At Cedia, I was impressed with the new V6 screen, Seymour's Neo, and DT screen. You could call Mike Garrett or Craig Peer for samples.
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post #44 of 257 Old 09-22-2017, 05:44 PM
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Just my opinion, I currently have a barco unit with the .9 WQXGA chip. In my opinion the black level is excellent for a DLP unit. In theory the Laser should be better. I imagine for fade to black scenes it will be a lot better. However, I have not seen the laser implementation from Barco on the Loki or Balder. I would just say to see the black floor in person if possible. I think really either unit would be great. Barco in my opinion knows how to maximize their units. Even with the DLP black the shadow detail is outstanding from my experience which helps a lot in terms of picture quality in low app scenes. From my view if I was going sight unseen I think the Sony is not a very risky proposition. I think it has received universal praise.I think it does most things really well. Black level is kind of subjective I would err on the cautious side sight unseen.
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post #45 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all of your inputs. Based on your comments, I think I will hold off on the Barco Balder, for now. The "lipstick and a lot of makeup on a pig" comment hit home. If TI is not cooperating, Barco cannot overcome that.. I will wait to see more of the evaluations, after more of Balder projectors are in use and our fellow forum members comment on them.
Unfortunately, the Sony 5000 is not in my budget.. Hence I have to hold off for a year.
Thanks again, for the comments. They have been very useful to me.
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Did you ever give a budget?

Have you seen the JVC or does it not have enough lumens?

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post #47 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Did you ever give a budget?

Have you seen the JVC or does it not have enough lumens?
I wanted to stay in the $35,000 list price before discounts, budget. As I wrote earlier, the difference between the Barco Balder ($35k) and the Sony 5000 ($60k) seems to be "only" $10,000 (at least, as offered to me). At this point, I don't want to spend the $10k more on the 5000 but it does seem, thanks to the posts here, seems to be far superior to the Balder. I did not know about the low native contrast of the DLP chips and thanks to those of you, who have educated me on that, accordingly.

Btw, with reference to the 5 to 7 year old Barcos (the ones with 3 kw lamps) - one of which I saw, and it was amazing - what was the native contrast for those older chips? As I wrote in the preceding, that Barco was just amazing. Cineramax offered one of those to me, at a very fair price.. but I just don't have a projection room and I don't want to deal with a 1.5kw or 3 kw heat and electrical wiring needs.

I think 3000 lumens should be sufficient for my 150" wide 1.3 gain perf screen (I am not changing the screen).
Some of have praised the jvc x1.. I have not checked the deals on that nor have I seen it.. if One of you know of an amazing deal, please let me know via PM.. not sure but I might think about it..

I know I will catch a lot of heat for this.. but I am not exactly a fan of JVC. I bought the first Dila intro - $18,000 in 1998 for their G10, bought it sight unseen! Different times.. but not very good.. Very low contrast..

Subsequently, circa 2007, many here was raving about the JVC RS20 being "finally the CRT replacement" with amazing contrast, never before seen in a digital! Contrast it had but the picture was very low quality. A much cheaper sony had a superior picture (in my opinion). Twice bitten - for ever shy.. I am a bit leery about JVC.. Always, I have liked the picture of a Sony Lcos (I owned a Qualia for may years and loved it!)

I think I will wait for a year.. before switching.. or until I sell my Wolf 1000i.

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post #48 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 09:29 AM
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I get it about JVC. You still owe it to yourself to at least look into them. Call Mike Garrett or Craig Peer for a deal on the JVC. I think they had a b-stock for a really good price.
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post #49 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 12:42 PM
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I have just had a chance to read over the rest of this thread and it really does represent the absolute worst of forum experts! Just posting the same information with more and more negativity does not render the point any more accurate! When making such damning claims would it not make sense to spend a couple of minutes checking if you were talking utter nonsense (or burning off a supportive partner) or not?

For reference, one of my companies are the residential distributor for Barco in the UK and my other company, Display Technologies, supplied the mirror mount brackets used by Barco at CEDIA as well as screens used in their European demonstration facilities.

I want to clarify a few simple issues of fact.

1. The Barco Loki and Balder use 0.9? DMDs with a physical pixel count of 2560 x 1600.

2. The new Barco Medea uses a 0.64? DMD with physical pixel count of 2560 x 1600.

3. All models in these ranges have the same identical Barco Pulse electronics platform which includes the Barco SSP video processor. This creates an output canvas of 5120 x 3200 which is then written to the DMD.

4. The pixel shift is created using an optical actuator per TI method (note point 4 corrected on feedback from others)

There is a really good and open white paper on this which can be downloaded here

One of the coolest things about the shared platform is that the many enhancements that Barco are adding, based on partner feedback, are available on all models on release.

There is one big physical option coming soon which is the new DCI colour wheel which will enable all models to exceed DCI P3 (current media room wheel is 92% of P3) with the loss of just 18% light. This means even the little Medea is going to offer around 4000 lumens whilst exceeding P3 which is pretty cool IMO.

Other items include a new mode which up-samples 24fps content to 144fps for playback and which looked great to me on the beta FW I tested on a Loki only yesterday. Frame interpolation has apparently been a big request and is also coming fairly soon. There are loads of other great things also.

Black level is absolutely an important parameter but it is not the only parameter. In every other respect I believe that Barco is or has clearly demonstrated that they can be top of the heap. When you have more than 3x the peak light output of others it is also not too hard to come up with solutions to match the black level that the target room is capable of and I am pleased to be supported by such a professional company that values the viewing experience of their customers and which has always been extremely responsive in ensuring that they deliver as expected.

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post #50 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 01:17 PM
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I have just had a chance to read over the rest of this thread and it really does represent the absolute worst of forum experts! Just posting the same information with more and more negativity does not render the point any more accurate! When making such damning claims would it not make sense to spend a couple of minutes checking if you were talking utter nonsense (or burning off a supportive partner) or not?

For reference, one of my companies are the residential distributor for Barco in the UK and my other company, Display Technologies, supplied the mirror mount brackets used by Barco at CEDIA as well as screens used in their European demonstration facilities.

I want to clarify a few simple issues of fact.

1. The Barco Loki and Balder use 0.9” DMDs with a physical pixel count of 2560 x 1600.

2. The new Barco Medea uses a 0.64” DMD with physical pixel count of 2560 x 1600.

3. All models in these ranges have the same identical Barco Pulse electronics platform which includes the Barco SSP video processor. This creates an output canvas of 5120 x 3200 which is then written to the DMD.

4. The pixel shift is created using an optical actuator rather than by the two mirror positions found in the XPR chips.

There is a really good and open white paper on this which can be downloaded here

One of the coolest things about the shared platform is that the many enhancements that Barco are adding, based on partner feedback, are available on all models on release.

There is one big physical option coming soon which is the new DCI colour wheel which will enable all models to exceed DCI P3 (current media room wheel is 92% of P3) with the loss of just 18% light. This means even the little Medea is going to offer around 4000 lumens whilst exceeding P3 which is pretty cool IMO.

Other items include a new mode which up-samples 24fps content to 144fps for playback and which looked great to me on the beta FW I tested on a Loki only yesterday. Frame interpolation has apparently been a big request and is also coming fairly soon. There are loads of other great things also.

Black level is absolutely an important parameter but it is not the only parameter. In every other respect I believe that Barco is or has clearly demonstrated that they can be top of the heap. When you have more than 3x the peak light output of others it is also not too hard to come up with solutions to match the black level that the target room is capable of and I am pleased to be supported by such a professional company that values the viewing experience of their customers and which has always been extremely responsive in ensuring that they deliver as expected.
...agreed on all; if only black levels could be somewhat improved (perhaps via a optical contrast "hack" like the ones made by Alan Gouger for the other Barco´s might help a little at least - but still it might not be sufficient I´m afraid...), this Barco platform is certainly very attractive and the point made in regards to P3 tracking (and you are confirming here + even possibilty of exceeding using another wheel...) is certainly a very important one, especially perhaps for screening / editing / grading purposes where tracking of blacks might really be that important... Still; as of right now the limited black levels are simply making out to much of a limitation for the more regular "residential" use in my honest opinion, wish it was otherwise as I have no intention of trying to "burn" Barco (not sure if you were referring to me?) being one of their partners at various shows, but honesty always goes a long way if it is indeed based on actualities... It is what it is, but given that Barco can figure out a way of improving this one issue they might have a very very competitive contendor moving forward - and right now these units might be very well suited for editing / grading studios already... Just think of what this platform, given it´s light output and color tracking - could have achieved if Barco was able to add an extra contrast DMD ala Dolby Vision --- too bad Barco did not think of grabbing that patent before Dolby did!!
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post #51 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 01:37 PM
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I think a lot of people would love to go back to DLP that have switched. It does everything well except for on/off cr. Unfortunately for a lot of people the lack of on/off cr is to much of an impediment to overcome.

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Just think of what this platform, given it´s light output and color tracking - could have achieved if Barco was able to add an extra contrast DMD ala Dolby Vision --- too bad Barco did not think of grabbing that patent before Dolby did!!
TI has mentioned dual DMDs. I wasn't aware that was patent protected. Even if it is, I believe there are other ways to achieve dual modulation. Rod Sterling talked about it on HTGeeks back in Jan. If Barco would have went this route with the Thor, then it would have everything including high on/off cr.
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I think a lot of people would love to go back to DLP that have switched. It does everything well except for on/off cr. Unfortunately for a lot of people the lack of on/off cr is to much of an impediment to overcome.



TI has mentioned dual DMDs. I wasn't aware that was patent protected. Even if it is, I believe there are other ways to achieve dual modulation. Rod Sterling talked about it on HTGeeks back in Jan. If Barco would have went this route with the Thor, then it would have everything including high on/off cr.
Not sure how general Dolby´s patent is though; but if this is possible to implement it would potentially be grounds for a total and complete renaissance for DLP in segments where on/off is in demand... Still, if DLP could overcome the Dolby patent, so could the D-ILA, SXRD and LCD guys I guess, but DLP still has some very vital arguments other than on/off like panel response, ANSI and also via the color wheel - P3 native tracking @ blue phosphor laser.... Let´s cross fingers, the projection market really needs some serious innovation brought forward in these TV/ panels taking over times!

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post #53 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 01:50 PM
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As Rod mentioned, this tech has been around for awhile. The two major downsides are cost and light output. He mentioned halving of the light output. For something like the Thor, I don't think that would be a major issue. The other problem is cost. I am not sure how much cost it would add to a projection system. Rod mentioned this being used in the sim market. Not sure which manufacturers use it though.
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As Rod mentioned, this tech has been around for awhile. The two major downsides are cost and light output. He mentioned halving of the light output. For something like the Thor, I don't think that would be a major issue. The other problem is cost. I am not sure how much cost it would add to a projection system. Rod mentioned this being used in the sim market. Not sure which manufacturers use it though.
I´d GLADLY take 4500 lumens instead of 9000 for the LOKI provided they´d be able to deliver 1000 x 1000 = 1.000.000:1 on/off - which is the theoretical effect of adding a second DMD.....
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post #55 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 02:15 PM
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Agreed. One thing I have noticed is that it seems like you don't need as many lumens with higher native contrast to achieve a nice picture.
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post #56 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post
I have just had a chance to read over the rest of this thread and it really does represent the absolute worst of forum experts! Just posting the same information with more and more negativity does not render the point any more accurate! When making such damning claims would it not make sense to spend a couple of minutes checking if you were talking utter nonsense (or burning off a supportive partner) or not?

For reference, one of my companies are the residential distributor for Barco in the UK and my other company, Display Technologies, supplied the mirror mount brackets used by Barco at CEDIA as well as screens used in their European demonstration facilities.

I want to clarify a few simple issues of fact.

1. The Barco Loki and Balder use 0.9” DMDs with a physical pixel count of 2560 x 1600.

2. The new Barco Medea uses a 0.64” DMD with physical pixel count of 2560 x 1600.

3. All models in these ranges have the same identical Barco Pulse electronics platform which includes the Barco SSP video processor. This creates an output canvas of 5120 x 3200 which is then written to the DMD.

4. The pixel shift is created using an optical actuator rather than by the two mirror positions found in the XPR chips.

There is a really good and open white paper on this which can be downloaded here

One of the coolest things about the shared platform is that the many enhancements that Barco are adding, based on partner feedback, are available on all models on release.

There is one big physical option coming soon which is the new DCI colour wheel which will enable all models to exceed DCI P3 (current media room wheel is 92% of P3) with the loss of just 18% light. This means even the little Medea is going to offer around 4000 lumens whilst exceeding P3 which is pretty cool IMO.

Other items include a new mode which up-samples 24fps content to 144fps for playback and which looked great to me on the beta FW I tested on a Loki only yesterday. Frame interpolation has apparently been a big request and is also coming fairly soon. There are loads of other great things also.

Black level is absolutely an important parameter but it is not the only parameter. In every other respect I believe that Barco is or has clearly demonstrated that they can be top of the heap. When you have more than 3x the peak light output of others it is also not too hard to come up with solutions to match the black level that the target room is capable of and I am pleased to be supported by such a professional company that values the viewing experience of their customers and which has always been extremely responsive in ensuring that they deliver as expected.
Neil,

Thank you for the informative post. The mounting system you provided was incredible. Please PM me with the contact info as that will solve an issue in a few designs.
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I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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post #57 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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The Loki has a .9" chip (not native 4K). If the Medea has a .6x" chip it's the same one that's in the low end faux-k DLPs that you can buy for $2k. TI isn't making a special .6x" for the 1000 projectors Barco is going to sell each year. If a high end .6x" XPR chip existed others would be using it.
Considering the post of ceenhad, are you sure about the preceding comments you made? It seems that Barco uses a different chip - I assume, available to others also - or perhaps for the Professional medium venue..
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post #58 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I have just had a chance to read over the rest of this thread and it really does represent the absolute worst of forum experts! Just posting the same information with more and more negativity does not render the point any more accurate! When making such damning claims would it not make sense to spend a couple of minutes checking if you were talking utter nonsense (or burning off a supportive partner) or not?.
Very good points. I am glad you wrote this. It becomes difficult on the forum, to differentiate faux experts and real ones. Some times, it is the the faux experts, who seem to assert themselves more.

In your opinion, what is the native contrast of this .9" chip and the realistic contrast of the Balder?
Is there any validity to the concerns of some, that DMD chips inherrently have lower contrast in the 1000:1 range, as compared to 10000:1 of Sony Lcos? It would be a valid concern that if DMDs have low contrast, no matter what Barco does, the native contrast or lack thereof, would be evident. Do you have any real world measurements and comments on this please? Again, I am actually a fan of Barco.. These questions are for my information only and it is not about dmd vs sony vs jvc
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Last edited by audvid; 09-23-2017 at 04:18 PM.
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post #59 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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There is one big physical option coming soon which is the new DCI colour wheel which will enable all models to exceed DCI P3 (current media room wheel is 92% of P3) with the loss of just 18% light.
Do you know when the units with this new DCI colour wheel are expected to ship? Would this colour wheel be retroactively fitted to 1st gen Balders?
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post #60 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Black level is absolutely an important parameter but it is not the only parameter. In every other respect I believe that Barco is or has clearly demonstrated that they can be top of the heap. When you have more than 3x the peak light output of others it is also not too hard to come up with solutions to match the black level that the target room is capable of and I am pleased to be supported by such a professional company that values the viewing experience of their customers and which has always been extremely responsive in ensuring that they deliver as expected.
Thank you for your very informative post.
I admit that, despite owning home theater for 21 years, I am not exactly an expert on Video. I defer to real experts here, for my purchase decisions.
With all due respect and considering that you are probably favorable to Barco products, I would appreciate your comments about the Barco Balder Vs the Sony 5000. I am not trying to start a flaming war.. Just seeking an informative and your personal opinion. Sight unseen, I was a bit more partial to Barco for its amazing colors (I didn't know about lower contrast) - I am very favourable to the Sony 5000 for the naturalness of the picture but another forum mate here told me that the difference between his 1100 and 5000 did exist but was not significant - except obviously for the substantial brightness. He almost sounded like he was not as impressed, given the cost difference (he didn't overtly say that!).
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Last edited by audvid; 09-23-2017 at 04:21 PM.
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