Barco Loki Vs Sony 5000 Vs Balder Vs Vivitek - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 04:22 PM
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Earlier 5000 models were not as good as they are now. That is something a few of us have witnessed by ending up with newer models. Still there were differences more evident with early release models besides brightness. My newer 5000 definitely would own a 1100 in nearly every category...
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post #62 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Earlier 5000 models were not as good as they are now. That is something a few of us have witnessed by ending up with newer models. Still there were differences more evident with early release models besides brightness. My newer 5000 definitely would own a 1100 in nearly every category...
I didn't realize that earlier models were not as good.. At that price point, I would expect perfection and for Sony to just replace them!
The forum friend was not implying that 5000 does not beat 1100.. he simply said to me that besides the obvious brightness, the 5000 was not significantly better. He said his wife noticed it even less. He was a bit disapointed.. that's all i was trying to convey, as his thoughts.
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post #63 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post

Neil,

Thank you for the informative post. The mounting system you provided was incredible. Please PM me with the contact info as that will solve an issue in a few designs.
My pleasure. Some very nice posts subsequently which I hope have been useful to the OP.

All my details are on the website www.dt-screens.com. Please get in touch and I?ll dnmy best to help
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post #64 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Some very nice posts subsequently which I hope have been useful to the OP.
I am the OP and your post was quite useful. Thank you.
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post #65 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 05:55 PM
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Last comment from me... I have seen a good number of projectors/displays over the years but I have never seen one handle motion as good with 4K as the 5000. After its latest update that is.
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post #66 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
I am certainly not a projection expert by any means but my understanding is that the chips are the least significant factor. Optics and processing are the X Factors
Whenever people tell you things like that it is good to keep in mind that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

--Darin
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post #67 of 257 Old 09-23-2017, 07:51 PM
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4. The pixel shift is created using an optical actuator rather than by the two mirror positions found in the XPR chips.
Can you explain the 2 mirror positions that you claim with XPR? I have seen pictures that make it look like some mirrors on the UHD65 shift while others don't, but it seems like other evidence points to XPR projectors using an optical actuator instead, just like JVC's eShift. For example, I've read that with XPR projectors that allow a "silent mode" that turns off the pixel shifting, the projectors put out lower audible noise when put in this mode, as if an actuator had been turned off.

How would 2 mirror positions shift the pixels in screen by half a pixel? With a normal lens system just reflecting the light at a different angle wouldn't shift the on screen position of the pixel for that mirror.
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When you have more than 3x the peak light output of others it is also not too hard to come up with solutions to match the black level that the target room is capable of ...
If the room has all lights off and no light leaking in then the absolute black level it is capable of is no visible light, even if the room is white. No matter how much light there is for white there is no solution that can match how low the room can go, if you don't have enough on/off CR.

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post #68 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 02:50 AM
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Can you explain the 2 mirror positions that you claim with XPR? I have seen pictures that make it look like some mirrors on the UHD65 shift while others don't, but it seems like other evidence points to XPR projectors using an optical actuator instead, just like JVC's eShift. For example, I've read that with XPR projectors that allow a "silent mode" that turns off the pixel shifting, the projectors put out lower audible noise when put in this mode, as if an actuator had been turned off.

How would 2 mirror positions shift the pixels in screen by half a pixel? With a normal lens system just reflecting the light at a different angle wouldn't shift the on screen position of the pixel
It doesn?t. This was me misinterpreting the ?tip and roll? comments in my old notes on this subject.

This white paper from TI is really good and accurately describes the process and I have amended my point 4 to reflect this. This certainly explains the silent modes you mention as well.

http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/ssnb002/ssnb002.pdf

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post #69 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 03:02 AM
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It doesn?t. This was me misinterpreting the ?tip and roll? comments in my old notes on this subject.
Thanks. Given that, I'm not sure what this is referring to:
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I have just had a chance to read over the rest of this thread and it really does represent the absolute worst of forum experts!
Did other posters have the resolution wrong, or something else?

Thanks,
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post #70 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post
When you have more than 3x the peak light output of others it is also not too hard to come up with solutions to match the black level that the target room is capable of ...
If the room has all lights off and no light leaking in then the absolute black level it is capable of is no visible light, even if the room is white. No matter how much light there is for white there is no solution that can match how low the room can go, if you don't have enough on/off CR.

--Darin
In the example you give then I don?t think any projection technology yet delivers the contrast that the room is capable of, however I am not sure it reallly represents the reality of most home cinemas.

First outside the extreme enthusiast niche no one has a completely black room with matt surfaces that totally eliminate reflection. Thus during normal viewing there is always some reflected light that raises the black level. This is ANSI rather than on/off of course but ties into...

Second, I have only very rarely visited home cinemas where there is a total absence of light at any time. You do find that most of the population likes a little lighting in their cinema when it is in use. Things like stair lighting, cup holder lights, the Led keypad on the wall, ceiling wash lights etc etc. Some people even love their bright blue ?bias lights? around the screen!!!

What?s my point? I personally see little benefit to arguing these theoretical points as they do not often have any impact in the real world. If the only buying point was the ultimate black level to be found in the velvet lined room of the client (and these room certainly exist) they would be best served by taking a lamp based jvc.

For the rest of the market though the discussion can be very different. When you have a little light to start with that ansi number becomes very important to keep depth in the Image. A lamp based JVC on the typical 12-15ft screens I see in the cinemas I visit is a pretty limp affair. Deep, often crushed, blacks and a flat and 2d feel to the Image. The opening bank robbery scene from the dark knight is still a favourite that people like to show and for me it illustrates the effect very clearly.

On a similar note I had the opportunity to often see the Sony vw1100 side by side / split screen against the Barco Orion as it hang in the showroom of one of my dealers. I remember the initial demos with the Elysium space scenes and as the small ship moved out of the star field to the Elysium you could see the background black noticeabley lighten. It started off a bit darker than Orion (which has a mechanical lens iris) but ended up lighter which in the end seemed much more distracting.

The point I am making is that by always only focusing on the black level we risk forgetting the real world where in the majority of cases, the room itself does remain a limiting factor. In these cases the peak light is very welcome, then we can use all the mechanical options to decrease black (Balder and below have variable lens iris), the laser illumination can be programmed in 1% increments down to about 50% and then if we have to external light filtration is still an option.

Thus you can match what the real world target is for the room.

As a final note, the larger Barco DLP models without Iris (Loki and above) are really not the lowest black level but have huge light output for larger screens. The smaller models (Balder and below) can be matched well to most situations. In all cases ANSI remains high at 600+ and often more.

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post #71 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post
Second, I have only very rarely visited home cinemas where there is a total absence of light at any time. You do find that most of the population likes a little lighting in their cinema when it is in use. Things like stair lighting, cup holder lights, the Led keypad on the wall, ceiling wash lights etc etc. Some people even love their bright blue ?bias lights? around the screen!!!

What?s my point? I personally see little benefit to arguing these theoretical points as they do not often have any impact in the real world. If the only buying point was the ultimate black level to be found in the velvet lined room of the client (and these room certainly exist) they would be best served by taking a lamp based jvc.
So your argument is basically that because commercial theaters are legally required to give a flawed presentation and because most people building a "home theater" (really just a projector in a room) at home have no idea what they're doing that DLP projectors are good enough? There's a ringing endorsement if I've ever heard one.
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post #72 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 06:07 AM
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The optical tricks are part of the Residential range, compared to the F-90/F-70, Lygren. The residential range's on-off contrast is specified to be clearly higher than the commercial range.

The 0.9" DMD should have better contrast compared to the new 0.67" DMD for 'Affordable UHD Consumer projectors'.
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post #73 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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.. I have only very rarely visited home cinemas where there is a total absence of light at any time.,.
Here is a picture of my theater. It does have partly white carpet, which I realize would reflect back to the screen - first 11 ft is black carpet. Everything else is (hopefully) contrast ready. Given this, would you say that the Balder is a good choice for my room? I am not challenging your comments. I am only trying to figure out whether the Balder is the best option for me.. So far, for me, this discussion has made that inconclusive. Btw, when is the upgraded color wheel coming for the Balder? You had mentioned it in your prior post.

Another question: As I wrote in the preceding, the absolute best picture i have ever seen was from a Barco (about 5 to 7 years ago) at a post production facility on a 20 ft wide screen.. The colors were stunning. the whites were brilliant.. never ever have I seen a picture like that.. now my question to you is.. what type of dmd chips were used at that time and what was the contrast ratio of that chip? Just curious.. those type of commercial chips have higher contrast? I would expect that, seven years later, current gen .9" chip in barco would even be better, yes?
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post #74 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 07:02 AM
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The optical tricks are part of the Residential range, compared to the F-90/F-70, Lygren. The residential range's on-off contrast is specified to be clearly higher than the commercial range.

The 0.9" DMD should have better contrast compared to the new 0.67" DMD for 'Affordable UHD Consumer projectors'.
Thanks for the info donaldk. We were told we were using the Barco BALDER at ISE 2017 (Alcons booth), but in reality it was a F-70 with a "video" color wheel - perhaps that can explain why it looked quite flat contrast wise if there is indeed a difference in the optical engine on Balder / F-70? Or perhaps you are referring to the lens only in terms of optical tricks? Not sure what lens we used in such regards, but black levels were certainly not impressive at that occation either. I do not believe the unit we were using had any form of active iris either, @ceenhad - is this the case for the current full featured "BALDER"? For the record, what is the listed on/off for the BALDER and the LOKI - Barco does not seem to list that information on the webpages...?

As for the overall requirement of blacks, I certainly agree that some setups are less critical than others in such regards, but there is still a lower limit of what can be accepted even for rooms that are more "design" than "performance" (batcave). I believe the LOKI as per now is beyond what can be accepted in such regards, sorry to say, but the BALDER - if indeed it does have a functional iris + an optical engine "tweak" that I have not seen, migh be within acceptable levels. Perhaps I should ask Barco to ship me one for testing at my facilities, if we (DreamScreen / ScreenAcoustics that is) are indeed to be part of the next ISE show alongside Alcons we need to try to improve on the presentation quality - it´s certainly in everyones interest... As Alcons does not take the video material presented into consideration but mainly focuses on audio, the unit needs to be able to showcase all types of content - also quite dark ones - with an acceptable quality.

Also, posterization was an issue with the setup we used both at ISE and CEDIA 2017. Basically, the Barco display whatever it receives 1:1 it seems, no 8->10bit internal interplation and I could not find anywhere to activate such a function if it does exist... As we used an Oppo player as source, and it seemingly did not do any interpolation either (although output was set to 10 or 12 bits), we ended up with huge issues in such regards. I´d say Barco should implement an internal interpolation upscale and have it turned on by default like is the case for most residential type of projectors these days, or else it would certainly be in Barcos (and mine being the "projectionist" in this case) clear interest to combine these projectors with a source that does this job externally (Kaleidescape for example), although I am not saying it´s Barco´s fault or responsability that this specific issue did occur - we just need to make sure it does not happen again...
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post #75 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 02:21 PM
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When you have a little light to start with that ansi number becomes very important to keep depth in the Image.
I disagree. When you add constant light sources the on/off CR still matters a lot, it is just the system on/off CR that matters, and high resolution MTF. Maintaining high system on/off CR depends a lot on having a high light output from the projector to fight that ambient light.

If these "real rooms" you are talking about have light covered surfaces then the system ANSI CR is likely to be much lower than the projector's ANSI CR and when you go to dark scenes the black floor from the system on/off CR is likely to be very relevant.

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post #76 of 257 Old 09-24-2017, 02:56 PM
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I was told, that it was the pre-production Loki that you guys had, so F-90 not the F-70. Barco aparantly had several Loki's and a Wodan lamp based 3 DMD at Storm Audio, at least that's what I was told as their room was small, and always had a line waiting outside.

Barco Residential says it enhances colour performance and re-engineers the contrast. I have no contact with the designer, so don't know how they do it. I believe Peter had some contact with Barco's lead designer perhaps he and Neil can chime in as how they do it. The Loki was specified with 6000:1. The F-90 13 is specified at Contrast ratio1800:1 sequential - 50000:1 dynamic contrast
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post #77 of 257 Old 09-25-2017, 05:08 AM
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I was told, that it was the pre-production Loki that you guys had, so F-90 not the F-70. Barco aparantly had several Loki's and a Wodan lamp based 3 DMD at Storm Audio, at least that's what I was told as their room was small, and always had a line waiting outside.

Barco Residential says it enhances colour performance and re-engineers the contrast. I have no contact with the designer, so don't know how they do it. I believe Peter had some contact with Barco's lead designer perhaps he and Neil can chime in as how they do it. The Loki was specified with 6000:1. The F-90 13 is specified at Contrast ratio1800:1 sequential - 50000:1 dynamic contrast
OK, got it. I´m confident it is possible to output higher quality pictures from both BALDER and LOKI going forward, and if all goes according to plan I might be able to get a BALDER up to our showroom so that we can properly calibrate, tweak and review the unit without the stress of a show hanging over our heads. Again, the platform has a LOT of positive sides to it, and if native contrast is indeed 6000:1, and the iris is also active on the BALDER, this might in reality be a very nice unit. The upcoming updated color wheel will also be able to even excess P3.

So, I would not rule out the BALDER or LOKI after all, even in comparison the the VW5000, but they should be reviewed more properly setup than we were able to accommodate at this particular event.
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post #78 of 257 Old 09-25-2017, 05:20 AM
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Uhm I would expect things like irises to be part of the key measures to get to the Residential 6000:1 from the base models/platforms sub 2000:1, not something on top.

Hope the Balder shows up well ahead of the show, would be nice to see you guys demoing not trouble shooting the Trinnov, Alcons, Barco, Oppo and so on set-up.
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Uhm I would expect things like irises to be part of the key measures to get to the Residential 6000:1 from the base models/platforms sub 2000:1, not something on top.

Hope the Balder shows up well ahead of the show, would be nice to see you guys demoing not trouble shooting the Trinnov, Alcons, Barco, Oppo and so on set-up.
Yeah, we REALLY need to start learning from previous experiences now - redundancy & pre-testing / setup seems to be key components in lowering our stress levels and giving the audience the best possible experience going forward...
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post #80 of 257 Old 09-25-2017, 10:10 AM
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OK, got it. I´m confident it is possible to output higher quality pictures from both BALDER and LOKI going forward, and if all goes according to plan I might be able to get a BALDER up to our showroom so that we can properly calibrate, tweak and review the unit without the stress of a show hanging over our heads. Again, the platform has a LOT of positive sides to it, and if native contrast is indeed 6000:1, and the iris is also active on the BALDER, this might in reality be a very nice unit. The upcoming updated color wheel will also be able to even excess P3.

So, I would not rule out the BALDER or LOKI after all, even in comparison the the VW5000, but they should be reviewed more properly setup than we were able to accommodate at this particular event.
This post sums up much more succinctly the points I was making in my last post. Ideally viewing in the environment where the projector will be used will ensure that the model that has the best performance blend is chosen.
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post #81 of 257 Old 12-21-2017, 04:43 PM
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I saw that the lumens in the balderCS has been higher than before it was 3500 for the T v and now 4000 lumens

Is that mean that they made the P3 update for the projector or something else

I am planing to move to balder CS very soon


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post #82 of 257 Old 12-23-2017, 11:54 AM
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Requesting update.. Has anyone compared the Barco Balder Vs the Sony 5000, recently?
I have not heard anything about the vivitek.
Should I wait till CES 2018, before I decide?
I might have to buy one, sooner than later.
Sony 880 is my ideal budget.. but I can get a good deal on Balder and that would be still in my price range.. The sony 5000 is a bit out of my league but I guess I could consider it, if it is far superior to the Balder.
Any of you selling your sony 5000?
Thanks
I would check out CES. From what I hear is coming, might fit your need.
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post #83 of 257 Old 01-02-2018, 03:26 AM
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Hi audvid - did you manage to experience any demos ? Did you make a decision ?
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post #84 of 257 Old 01-02-2018, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi audvid - did you manage to experience any demos ? Did you make a decision ?
I didn't see a demo yet. I think I will wait for now.
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post #85 of 257 Old 01-03-2018, 04:55 PM
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I didn't realize that earlier models were not as good.. At that price point, I would expect perfection and for Sony to just replace them!
The forum friend was not implying that 5000 does not beat 1100.. he simply said to me that besides the obvious brightness, the 5000 was not significantly better. He said his wife noticed it even less. He was a bit disapointed.. that's all i was trying to convey, as his thoughts.
I'm revisiting an older post. Can someone elaborate more on "earlier models not being as good as the newer models?" What differences have been noticed specifically? I got mine in Nov. 2016 - is that considered a newer or an older model? The one thing about 5000 that has always bothered me, relative to the 1100ES, is the sensitivity to grain/older blu-ray discs, etc.
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post #86 of 257 Old 01-18-2018, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post


I saw that the lumens in the balderCS has been higher than before it was 3500 for the T v and now 4000 lumens

Is that mean that they made the P3 update for the projector or something else

I am planing to move to balder CS very soon


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Gents- I’m joining the discussion bit late. I bought the Barco Balder CinemaScope several months ago. Apparently I got the first one in the US. Was interesting story- we had a rush order on it (because our home builder had our house in a parade of homes show) and Daniel Nilsson with Barco personally flew out on a red eye flight and then drove couple hours to deliver the lens on time for the home show! Pretty impressive dedication.

My initial takes- this thing is very bright! I have a 162” wide screen. The Barco really lights up the screen without any issue. Projector is about 26 feet from screen. In speaking with Adam Pelz (Erskine Group), there is a new color wheel and update that will improve HDR and color gamut so I’ll update later. This was mentioned previously above.

Right now I’ve noticed a few things (that apparently will improve) - some HDR movies have a bit of washed out picture, purples and dark blues (think Vikings and Giants uniforms) can be overly exuberant sometimes, Lumagen and Barco had hard time playing well together, and black level is just ok. I don’t always notice the HDR and color issue, which new color wheel should address. And Adam mentioned they’ve had more time fine tuning Balders and black level should improve too.

I’m happy with my purchase and would do again. I’ll update the discussion when we’ve updated Balder.


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post #87 of 257 Old 01-19-2018, 09:39 AM
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In room black levels will be an issue in residential sized rooms. The problem comes from the requirement to get full advantage of HDR, we need significantly more lumens from the projector. Once we get brighter images, the screens do exactly what they are designed to do ... reflect that light back into the room. Much of that light gets reflected back to the screen adversely affecting in room contrast. In light colored rooms, this matter is exacerbated. While one manufacturer is aware and looking at options, in the meantime careful selection of screen material is important to obtain correct half gain angles and ambient light rejection values.
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post #88 of 257 Old 01-19-2018, 10:08 AM
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Barco Loki Vs Sony 5000 Vs Balder Vs Vivitek

I have owned a handful of Barco 3 chip DLP units, and they were all built very well, but the contrast was well below average.

The Balder is a terrible projector choice for any cinema, residential or commercial, large or small.

It’s a single chip DLP which will inherently make the image unwatchable, unless you like rainbows. And the “rainbows” (color separation) is always more visible on brighter projectors.

I don’t know how anyone could spec a single chip DLP for any cinema room, especially a high end room.

Also the unit will have abysmally low contrast, which will only be exasperated by the high brightness. Nothing about the image will be remotely close to “HDR”.

I hate to knock anyone’s purchase and the only thing that matters is that “You” are happy with it. I just don’t begin to understand the thought process in selecting this unit. A 160” wide screens isn’t that big this day in time, and there are other units that would give you a far superior picture.

Not sure how much the Balder cost but maybe this projector was selected because of a limited projector budget.





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Last edited by ccool96; 01-19-2018 at 10:14 AM.
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post #89 of 257 Old 01-19-2018, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I have owned a handful of Barco 3 chip DLP units, and they were all built very well, but the contrast was well below average.

The Balder is a terrible projector choice for any cinema, residential or commercial, large or small.

It’s a single chip DLP which will inherently make the image unwatchable, unless you like rainbows. And the “rainbows” (color separation) is always more visible on brighter projectors.

I don’t know how anyone could spec a single chip DLP for any cinema room, especially a high end room.

Also the unit will have abysmally low contrast, which will only be exasperated by the high brightness. Nothing about the image will be remotely close to “HDR”.

I hate to knock anyone’s purchase and the only thing that matters is that “You” are happy with it. I just don’t begin to understand the thought process in selecting this unit. A 160” wide screens isn’t that big this day in time, and there are other units that would give you a far superior picture.

Not sure how much the Balder cost but maybe this projector was selected because of a limited projector budget.



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Wow. Having installed and calibrated a Barco Thor, a Loki, two Balder CS, and several Orion CS over the years, I can assure you that neither the clients nor myself experienced abysmal, exasperating or unwatchable.
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post #90 of 257 Old 01-19-2018, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Gents- I’m joining the discussion bit late. I bought the Barco Balder CinemaScope several months ago. Apparently I got the first one in the US. Was interesting story- we had a rush order on it (because our home builder had our house in a parade of homes show) and Daniel Nilsson with Barco personally flew out on a red eye flight and then drove couple hours to deliver the lens on time for the home show! Pretty impressive dedication.

My initial takes- this thing is very bright! I have a 162” wide screen. The Barco really lights up the screen without any issue. Projector is about 26 feet from screen. In speaking with Adam Pelz (Erskine Group), there is a new color wheel and update that will improve HDR and color gamut so I’ll update later. This was mentioned previously above.

Right now I’ve noticed a few things (that apparently will improve) - some HDR movies have a bit of washed out picture, purples and dark blues (think Vikings and Giants uniforms) can be overly exuberant sometimes, Lumagen and Barco had hard time playing well together, and black level is just ok. I don’t always notice the HDR and color issue, which new color wheel should address. And Adam mentioned they’ve had more time fine tuning Balders and black level should improve too.

I’m happy with my purchase and would do again. I’ll update the discussion when we’ve updated Balder.


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I made the order and should receive my unit in few days I hope i get the new version and now i talk with my dealer to update the cables so i can get the best from the beast


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