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post #61 of 109 Old 12-21-2017, 08:49 PM
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Ken
Now I will have to sell one of my cars and do the stack. ..
On the brighter side , I will get to meet you again .
Let?s see ...
Too bad I cannot do a stack - no space in my hush box - this is killing me...

Mani - to get the most out of the stack I recommend you switch to a Stewart Snomatte 100..... that is the screen to have.
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post #62 of 109 Old 12-21-2017, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
Ken
Now I will have to sell one of my cars and do the stack. ..[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
On the brighter side , I will get to meet you again .
Let?s see ...[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Too bad I cannot do a stack - no space in my hush box - this is killing me...

Mani - to get the most out of the stack I recommend you switch to a Stewart Snomatte 100..... that is the screen to have.
Hi Ash

I would if I could , but I want widest possible screen . I have barely 20-24 in of space left from the edge of the screen frame to the side wall , so no place to keep LR speakers . LCR?s have to go behind the screen . So I am happy with current compromise . Screen excellence 4K Enlightor has extremely good uniformity and very wide viewing angle and best audio of any AT screen I have heard . If my room was 6 ft wider , I could do solid screen , but then again I may have gone with 19 ft wide AT screen [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

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post #63 of 109 Old 12-21-2017, 10:39 PM
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Hi Ash

I would if I could , but I want widest possible screen . I have barely 20-24 in of space left from the edge of the screen frame to the side wall , so no place to keep LR speakers . LCR?s have to go behind the screen . So I am happy with current compromise . Screen excellence 4K Enlightor has extremely good uniformity and very wide viewing angle and best audio of any AT screen I have heard . If my room was 6 ft wider , I could do solid screen , but then again I may have gone with 19 ft wide AT screen [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I meant a AT Screen for sure... Maybe a 19 foot wide AT Snomatte - Quality over quantity ...
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post #64 of 109 Old 12-22-2017, 09:24 AM
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Ken
Now I will have to sell one of my cars and do the stack. ..
On the brighter side , I will get to meet you again .
Let?s see ...
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post #65 of 109 Old 12-22-2017, 09:29 AM
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Looks like I'm soon to be taking a drive to Art's!!
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post #66 of 109 Old 12-22-2017, 10:02 AM
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Hi Ash

I would if I could , but I want widest possible screen . I have barely 20-24 in of space left from the edge of the screen frame to the side wall , so no place to keep LR speakers . LCR?s have to go behind the screen . So I am happy with current compromise . Screen excellence 4K Enlightor has extremely good uniformity and very wide viewing angle and best audio of any AT screen I have heard . If my room was 6 ft wider , I could do solid screen , but then again I may have gone with 19 ft wide AT screen [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


I had a EN4K screen before switching back to the Stewart ST100. Both are a great screen, but the difference between the two was substantial.

The EN4K screen is a great screen but the downside is a major loss of brightness.

When I compared ST100 Perf to the EN4K, the EN4K was 35% less bright.

Same screen size, EN4K gave me 16fL. ST100 Perf’d gave me 24fL.

Especially with the size screen you have already, you could greatly benefit from an ST100 perf.


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post #67 of 109 Old 12-22-2017, 10:10 AM
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Did you take a look at the V6 from AVS to ?

The Gain is only 0,85, but there are absolute no structure seen, if you try to sit close to screen as possible- like me- it is great
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post #68 of 109 Old 12-22-2017, 03:53 PM
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Hi Ash

I would if I could , but I want widest possible screen . I have barely 20-24 in of space left from the edge of the screen frame to the side wall , so no place to keep LR speakers . LCR?s have to go behind the screen . So I am happy with current compromise . Screen excellence 4K Enlightor has extremely good uniformity and very wide viewing angle and best audio of any AT screen I have heard . If my room was 6 ft wider , I could do solid screen , but then again I may have gone with 19 ft wide AT screen [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


I had a EN4K screen before switching back to the Stewart ST100. Both are a great screen, but the difference between the two was substantial.

The EN4K screen is a great screen but the downside is a major loss of brightness.

When I compared ST100 Perf to the EN4K, the EN4K was 35% less bright.

Same screen size, EN4K gave me 16fL. ST100 Perf?d gave me 24fL.

Especially with the size screen you have already, you could greatly benefit from an ST100 perf.


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How is the audio?
One of my friend has perf Screen ( not Stewart) and there is substantial difference in the sound ( not just the volume) with and without the screen
If audio is great , I will definitely consider Stewart . I read sometime ago that Stewart was also coming out with microwave like EN4k as their flagship AT screen?
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post #69 of 109 Old 12-23-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I had a EN4K screen before switching back to the Stewart ST100. Both are a great screen, but the difference between the two was substantial.

The EN4K screen is a great screen but the downside is a major loss of brightness.

When I compared ST100 Perf to the EN4K, the EN4K was 35% less bright.

Same screen size, EN4K gave me 16fL. ST100 Perf’d gave me 24fL.

Especially with the size screen you have already, you could greatly benefit from an ST100 perf.


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I find that strange. Based on your readings, the EN4K would have a gain of .6 or less.

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post #70 of 109 Old 12-23-2017, 08:46 AM
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Coming soon: Sony VPL-VW5000ES stacked pair!

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Originally Posted by Ericglo;
I find that strange. Based on your readings, the EN4K would have a gain of .6 or less.


Compared to the ST100 perf’d material. And measured with a Minolta LS100. The EN4K measured a gain of 0.65. Which seems very close to many other reports of an actual gain of 0.7.

The new AVS V6 material measured a gain of 0.75.


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post #71 of 109 Old 12-23-2017, 08:48 AM
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Coming soon: Sony VPL-VW5000ES stacked pair!

None of the woven materials preformed anywhere near the brightness level of the Stewart perf’d screens.


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post #72 of 109 Old 12-23-2017, 09:05 AM
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I don?t think 0.65 sounds right
Ken measured 23fl on my EN4K , post calibration . It is 16 ft wide 2.37:1
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post #73 of 109 Old 12-23-2017, 09:19 AM
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I don?t think 0.65 sounds right
Ken measured 23fl on my EN4K , post calibration . It is 16 ft wide 2.37:1


I think they may have changed the fabric at some point. My EN4K screen would of been right at 5 years old.

I would say based on your fL, your screen would be closer to a .75 gain

It a very good fabric, and you certainly can’t see any visible screen structure, but there is certainly a visible light loss between the two.

I am traveling today, but will be home this evening. I have a notebook with a list of measurement for both my original EN4K and the ST100 and ST130 perf. I’ll share those #s when I get home.



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post #74 of 109 Old 12-23-2017, 09:32 AM
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I don?t think 0.65 sounds right
Ken measured 23fl on my EN4K , post calibration . It is 16 ft wide 2.37:1


For comparison, at Art’s house with a single unit at full power on a 16’ wide 1.2 gain screen, he had 36fL. And that’s without an A-lens.

So if he had a .75 gain screen he would have 23fL without the A-lens.

But I believe you use an A-lens? So that’s giving you an additional bump in light output. So I would say your net gain is certainly below .75 if that’s with the use of an A-lens.

I used a woven screen for many many years and was very happy with the performance, until I realized how much light I was giving up.


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post #75 of 109 Old 12-23-2017, 09:52 AM
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Would anyone know if there is software that can be used to align non-sony projector stack? I've been wanting to do this but been dissuaded by many that it's very difficult but I could sure use some more lumens. I use the centerstage xd material 160" wide 2.35:1 with isco IIIL lens but need more brightness and 2 projectors would be a significant difference. I'd love the JVC Z1 to be double stacked but for now I want a RS500/600 double stack. Any help appreciated.
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post #76 of 109 Old 12-24-2017, 06:20 PM
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I don?t think 0.65 sounds right
Ken measured 23fl on my EN4K , post calibration . It is 16 ft wide 2.37:1


I think they may have changed the fabric at some point. My EN4K screen would of been right at 5 years old.

I would say based on your fL, your screen would be closer to a .75 gain

It a very good fabric, and you certainly can?t see any visible screen structure, but there is certainly a visible light loss between the two.

I am traveling today, but will be home this evening. I have a notebook with a list of measurement for both my original EN4K and the ST100 and ST130 perf. I?ll share those #s when I get home.



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Couple of questions since you have owned both EN4K and snonatte100:
- can the Snomatte fabric be installed in the Screen Excellence reference frame rail so that I don?t need to change the whole frame and installation hardware and re aligning and centering the screen .
- can the Snomatte 100 fabric be bought from the dealer without the frame ?

Thanks
Mani
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post #77 of 109 Old 03-15-2018, 01:32 PM
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Would anyone know if there is software that can be used to align non-sony projector stack?
Excellent question! Has anyone tried stacking a couple of sub $10k projectors? I'd imagine it might be easier with 2 full-4k Sonys than with JVC pixel shifters. The idea of better HDR performance is just so tempting!!
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post #78 of 109 Old 03-16-2018, 05:52 AM
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I have think about a Stack of 2 x VW 1100 to, but after talk to lot of experts Oli Klohs/ Ekki from Cine4home and a german user ,
he already has this stack working, but ONLY for 3D,
I came to the conclusion to leave it and stick with one VW 1100 + ISCO 1.25 and ITM from Lumagen, it brings a huge HDR impact !!!

P.S. So I have to change the lamp.....more often...
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post #79 of 109 Old 03-16-2018, 08:04 AM
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P.S. So I have to change the lamp.....more often...

And this is an option. With my DLPs I'd change lamps at between 350 and 500 hours so I'd have enough light. The bad news was that I'd sit there knowing that it really was dimmer than the last time I watched it...every single time I turned it on. Not a great big deal but a bit of a downer.


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post #80 of 109 Old 03-18-2018, 10:12 AM
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Excellent question! Has anyone tried stacking a couple of sub $10k projectors? I'd imagine it might be easier with 2 full-4k Sonys than with JVC pixel shifters. The idea of better HDR performance is just so tempting!!
I don't believe I have read about anyone doing it other than Art and Chris with their 5000s. The Sony solution has been out for a couple of years, so I am sure it is possible with their 4k line up.


As for other brands, you would need an external solution. There are products available like VNSS Geobox.

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post #81 of 109 Old 03-19-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Compared to the ST100 perf’d material. And measured with a Minolta LS100. The EN4K measured a gain of 0.65. Which seems very close to many other reports of an actual gain of 0.7.

The new AVS V6 material measured a gain of 0.75.


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Thanks ccool, my V6 from the early send out in Norway is exactly 0.81 GAIN I double check it.
This means that the "newer" V6 is darker.
Do you have a source for 0.75 ?
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Is an image comparison available for single vs stacked 5000s - in 1080p mode vs UHD SDR vs UHD HDR? Just to get a visual sense of how the stack stacks up against a single 5000? I'm content with my single 5000 in 1080p 2D and 3D modes, but not so much w/UHD HDR. Even post calibration using Lumagen Pro, the difference between good old 1080p SDR and UHD HDR isn't quite as striking (it's more on the subtle side but Lucy UHD HDR was striking of course) as I'd have expected. A well done 1080p SDR to me looks almost as good as an average (most) UHD HDR material. Am using ST100 (13.5 ft wide).
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post #83 of 109 Old 03-19-2018, 01:01 PM
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Is an image comparison available for single vs stacked 5000s - in 1080p mode vs UHD SDR vs UHD HDR? Just to get a visual sense of how the stack stacks up against a single 5000? I'm content with my single 5000 in 1080p 2D and 3D modes, but not so much w/UHD HDR. Even post calibration using Lumagen Pro, the difference between good old 1080p SDR and UHD HDR isn't quite as striking (it's more on the subtle side but Lucy UHD HDR was striking of course) as I'd have expected. A well done 1080p SDR to me looks almost as good as an average (most) UHD HDR material. Am using ST100 (13.5 ft wide).

As I said in my thread about my 5000 stack ,you just have to see it. I felt as you regarding HDR and a single 5000 compared to SDR it looked different but not better. Now the difference is considerable and obvious with HDR material.


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post #84 of 109 Old 03-20-2018, 08:44 AM
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Thanks ccool, my V6 from the early send out in Norway is exactly 0.81 GAIN I double check it.
This means that the "newer" V6 is darker.
Do you have a source for 0.75 ?
Just did a re-measurement since it was brought up, and as for gain difference the "new" one (that AVScience carries) measures out a couple of % higher than the initial production due to slight adjustments, so I´d say a fair assessment of the "gain" of our current V6 is about 0.82-0.85 (but who´s counting, right...? ), not sure how you are able to get 0.75 off of it, but the again, accurate light measurements might be quite tricky. We are using a K-10A, profiled by a PR670 / CS in a highly controlled environment when we do our gain measurements, but we are basing the "gain" values on the Studiotek 100 - and a D65 calibrated light source - being the 1.0 reference and as such it might be a different reference on either the 1.0 fabric OR the incoming light that makes out some of the difference. Measuring gain off of 10k kelvin light, for example, might not give you the correct value from a D65 tuned fabric (although it should not make out that much of a difference up and until you try calibrating the colour shift off of the 10k fabric that is...). Still, "D65 gain" is really not an industry standard figure, so basically all measurements might be "right", but in my opinion the D65 gain is certainly what is the most interesting figure provided you do use a D65 calibrated projector that is...
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post #85 of 109 Old 03-20-2018, 09:11 AM
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Gain is referenced to magnesium carbonate IIRC so the material should be referenced to that or a known equivalent for accurate results.

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post #86 of 109 Old 03-20-2018, 09:27 AM
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Gain is referenced to magnesium carbonate IIRC so the material should be referenced to that or a known equivalent for accurate results.


Well, I have never been one for accepting outdated standards, principles and ideas in general - especially when they provide inaccurate benchmarks for people to base their investments... Still, you are certainly 100% accurate in that standard being referenced by a number of manufacturers, problem is, except for Stewart, most of them seem to inflate their specs beyond any reason, don’t ask me how they get away with that, but I’d say that inflated gain is more of an industry standard than not... Our measurements, made out by a pro THX / ISF calibrator simply has a more logical approach, but by all means, we do not have all the answers on this aspect but at least we do try to give people figures they can actually use to base their screen size etc calculations on...


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Is the reference considered outdated or is that just your own opinion?

I thought that if you wanted accurate results, and judging by the equipment you are using it looks that way, I thought you might want to measure against the known reference rather than something else. Then you could present accurate results for all materials tested.

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post #88 of 109 Old 03-20-2018, 09:51 AM
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Is the reference considered outdated or is that just your own opinion?

I thought that if you wanted accurate results, and judging by the equipment you are using it looks that way, I thought you might want to measure against the known reference rather than something else. Then you could present accurate results for all materials tested.
Well, I´d say potentially both, i.e. methodology and objectivity has some serious flaws... I guess this is not highly relevant in this thread though, but I have already had some very fruitful discussions with the CEO of Colorimetry Research regarding a neutral gain measurement protocol performed by a neutral 3. party such as themselves, but so far we have not had the time or resources to pull any further results off of these discussions other than agreeing that both methodology and objectivity is highly challenging as of now...

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Is the reference considered outdated or is that just your own opinion?

I thought that if you wanted accurate results, and judging by the equipment you are using it looks that way, I thought you might want to measure against the known reference rather than something else. Then you could present accurate results for all materials tested.
...as for benchmarking vs. a known reference, we are using Stewart Studiotek 100 as that 1.0 reference, and as much as we would like to base our measures on the magnesium carbonate IIRC, problem is as stated above, very few of our competitors do... When benchmarking vs. - for example - a huge player in the market that states 1.0 gain on their AT fabric, we found it to have 0,75 instead, and this particular player is referring to that magnesium carbonate standard as basis of their measurements. So; again, I have no issues or problems with standards, and we are not trying to "pick the fitting figure", and also if you see comparisons made by others you can also see we do end up in the 0.8 gain (as is our spec) area in most cases.

Still, I guess this is a discussion that would probably suit another thread better than the VW5000 stacked one, although real vs. listed gain is indeed an important element in terms of being able to plan out actual light reflection in these kinds of installations I guess...

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post #90 of 109 Old 03-20-2018, 10:47 AM
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Who cares what other people are doing if what they are doing is wrong or dishonest anyway?

Doing relative measures is fine if you just want to find the one with the most gain within your criteria, but you still don't know what the actual gain is. If you want to publish accurate figures why not follow the correct methods if its within your power to do so?

Just because someone dishonestly states they are following the correct methodology but are not, does not make that method bogus. At least if you do it, it's done right and the results are correct and accurate.

Was just trying to help so that you didn't have to guess at gain, you'd know it for sure.
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