Sony VPL-VW885ES: First Look & Review - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 105 Old 12-29-2017, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Your revised post gives me a headache. I'm not doing any math, BTW. The readings from the meter don't require any additional calculations.
Allow me to elaborate using a totally different review and projector as an example...

CNET, discussing the Epson 5020UB in the context of its LG Hecto review (because this topic is surprisingly difficult to Google), which is spec'd at 2400 lumens. CNET notes "Interestingly however, LG's specification is not better than what we measured from the Epson 5020UB ($2,600), a traditional long-throw projector we lauded in a recent review. It hit an insane 274 nits on our 120-inch Stewart StudioTek 130 G3 screen."

So please note, that's a 2400-lumen projector, the 5020UB. And 274 nits on a 120" StudioTek 130, for a 2400-nit projector, translates to (drumroll please) around 220 nits for a 2000-nit projector. And if you believe projectorreviews.com, this 885ES is actually a 2100-lumen projector. And if that's the case, my reading is within extremely tight tolerances in terms of accuracy. 235 lumens at that screen size, give or take a few % because I've stopped paying attention to aspect ratio, lol.



(tl;dr... yeah, I know)
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post #62 of 105 Old 12-29-2017, 07:37 PM
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It sounds like “nit picking”...
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post #63 of 105 Old 12-29-2017, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
It sounds like “nit picking”...
For even more fun, you can convert nits to foot-lamberts and discover that, yeah, 235 nits equals 68 foot-lamberts. And more math fun indicates that... if you take away 5% of 68 (the difference between 2100 and 2000 lumens) you end up with 65 foot-lamberts. Which, in the context of... " there is NO WAY this PJ produces a picture above 65nits on a 120" studiotek 130" is an amusingly coincidental bit of numerology.

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post #64 of 105 Old 12-29-2017, 08:37 PM
 
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This projector seems like a gift from heaven.

Does anyone on AVS know if there's any progress being made on the green laser front?

That seems to be the missing ingredient to reach 100% P3 and higher rec 2020 percentages.
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post #65 of 105 Old 12-30-2017, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
This projector seems like a gift from heaven.

Does anyone on AVS know if there's any progress being made on the green laser front?

That seems to be the missing ingredient to reach 100% P3 and higher rec 2020 percentages.
Yes, I do

Firstly, for those who are not already in the know, any and all existing and this new SONY VW885/760ES home theater/cinema laser projectors are not full RGB laser projectors. They make use of a singular Blue Laser Diode only for the light source and both the Red and Green components of the RGB spectrum are synthesized via firing the Blue Laser via a Yellow Phosphor panel.

Secondly, all pre-existing professional RGB laser projectors have not to date historically been true RGB laser projectors either, in that whilst both Blue and Red Laser Diodes have been used for the Blue and Red components of the RGB spectrum, the Green compenent has been synthesized via usage of an infra-red laser coupled with a wavelength frequency converter that shifts the red 'light' into the green frequency spectrum.

However, this recently has evolved. Because for the first time a viable Green laser diode has been developed, which is already featuring in at least two upcoming new professional RGB laser projectors, which will be the very first true RGB laser projectors; namely a brand new Sony RGB laser projector with the highest native contrast next to the Dolby Cinema Projector, and Christie's new compact CP4325 RGB laser projector, both of which will be utilizing the new true green laser diode.

I personally saw the prototypes for both these projectors at CinemaCon 2017 and you can read more details here:

NEW SONY 4K HDR NEXT-GENERATION RGB LASER CINEMA PROJECTOR AT CINEMACON 2017

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post #66 of 105 Old 12-30-2017, 06:25 AM
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I had the same question when I read your review but then realized when I adjusted for the difference in gain between your screen and mine your number was right on what I was showing.

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Huh? You sure you're not thinking foot-lamberts? Even the 285ES got double that on my screen.

As noted in the review, I'm using Colorimetry Research CR-100 and CR-250 meters. Highly accurate.
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post #67 of 105 Old 12-30-2017, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakyguy666 View Post
See previous post--revised with clarifications. Your math is simply WRONG.


Umm no. Your math is wrong.

75 nit on a 140” diagonal 16:9 ST130 screen would only be 914 lumens.

He said he could get 135 nits from a 140” diagonal 16:9 ST130. That’s 1760 lumens.

His math is correct.






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post #68 of 105 Old 12-30-2017, 12:26 PM
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any fan noise ?

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post #69 of 105 Old 12-30-2017, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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any fan noise ?
Sony says 24 dB. I never heard it.

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post #70 of 105 Old 12-30-2017, 03:59 PM
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I am pretty happy with my 285 poor man's version of these pricey items.
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post #71 of 105 Old 12-30-2017, 08:45 PM
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Better than IMAX film?

Mark,
In the review, regarding Dunkirk, you said, "In scene after scene, it delivered fidelity that I preferred to the film-based IMAX presentation I saw in theaters." Really? Are you talking about an IMAX 15/70mm presentation, where you would be watching the same film format in which something like 80 percent of Dunkirk was shot? Where the screen ratio is 1.43:1 and therefore almost twice as tall as 2.39:1 widescreen. I saw Dunkirk in IMAX 15/70 during the first run, and then saw it in IMAX Laser on a 1.43:1 screen during the recent re-release, and even that was a big letdown compared to the 70mm. I cannot begin to imagine a universe where I would prefer a digital projector in any home theater to 70mm IMAX.
-Matt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manrod View Post
Mark,
In the review, regarding Dunkirk, you said, "In scene after scene, it delivered fidelity that I preferred to the film-based IMAX presentation I saw in theaters." Really? Are you talking about an IMAX 15/70mm presentation, where you would be watching the same film format in which something like 80 percent of Dunkirk was shot? Where the screen ratio is 1.43:1 and therefore almost twice as tall as 2.39:1 widescreen. I saw Dunkirk in IMAX 15/70 during the first run, and then saw it in IMAX Laser on a 1.43:1 screen during the recent re-release, and even that was a big letdown compared to the 70mm. I cannot begin to imagine a universe where I would prefer a digital projector in any home theater to 70mm IMAX.
-Matt
I agree with Mark with Dunkirk, the large frame scenes on the 885 is the first time I got the big theater fidelity feel in my home theater, he explains it as what my experience was also.
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post #73 of 105 Old 12-31-2017, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
any fan noise ?
Yes, even at laser low. But you only notice when the source is quiet, for example on an Xbox menu.
I can do measurements of mine if you like?
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post #74 of 105 Old 12-31-2017, 01:30 AM
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"CalMan calibration software and a Colorimetry Research CR-100 colorimeter and a CR-250 spectrophotometer kit"

Well, I will be the first to say it, those are junk for calibrating a projected image, and more so for a laser/phosphor image. Should have used a Photo Research SpectraScan Spectroradiometer PR-655 with there Tru8 Matrix Calibration running on SpectraWin 2 software can measure the effect of metamerism on a rec2020/laser device. They are the only ones! All the production houses use them for calibration and so does Christie, Barco, NEC, Digital Projection, Sony, LG, Samsung, Optoma, BenQ, Epson, Viewsonic, InFocus, Panasonic, Acer, JVC, etc, etc.

All of the non-RGB laser projectors use dichroic mirror's(for the tech heads https://www.rp-photonics.com/dichroic_mirrors.html ) for each color before being sent to the Prism. The problem is that Green, Red, Blue can actually display in TWO to FOUR wavelengths giving a false reading thanks to the low-pass and high-pass filters. A correct calibration tool will take only the "Correct" wavelength, by "Correct" I mean the true color the human eye can perceive, giving "true" readings for real-world calibration results. Don't go sub-par on laser calibration. Leave the Colorimetry Research for panel displays.

Bill (the laser guy) Beck and Jean-Philippe Jacquemin, both of Barco, have talked at lengths about this, most notably back in February.
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And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #75 of 105 Old 12-31-2017, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manrod View Post
Mark,
In the review, regarding Dunkirk, you said, "In scene after scene, it delivered fidelity that I preferred to the film-based IMAX presentation I saw in theaters." Really? Are you talking about an IMAX 15/70mm presentation, where you would be watching the same film format in which something like 80 percent of Dunkirk was shot? Where the screen ratio is 1.43:1 and therefore almost twice as tall as 2.39:1 widescreen. I saw Dunkirk in IMAX 15/70 during the first run, and then saw it in IMAX Laser on a 1.43:1 screen during the recent re-release, and even that was a big letdown compared to the 70mm. I cannot begin to imagine a universe where I would prefer a digital projector in any home theater to 70mm IMAX.
-Matt
I posted this elsewhere on here,

I like Nolan's movies, but they are a PITA on initial setup for the exhibition. With Dunkirk, the active image is 3996x1818 (2.2:1) within a 3996x2160 (1.85:1) container. The film plays in a FLAT presentation. Everything is wrong with that setup.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #76 of 105 Old 12-31-2017, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manrod View Post
Mark,
In the review, regarding Dunkirk, you said, "In scene after scene, it delivered fidelity that I preferred to the film-based IMAX presentation I saw in theaters." Really? Are you talking about an IMAX 15/70mm presentation, where you would be watching the same film format in which something like 80 percent of Dunkirk was shot? Where the screen ratio is 1.43:1 and therefore almost twice as tall as 2.39:1 widescreen. I saw Dunkirk in IMAX 15/70 during the first run, and then saw it in IMAX Laser on a 1.43:1 screen during the recent re-release, and even that was a big letdown compared to the 70mm. I cannot begin to imagine a universe where I would prefer a digital projector in any home theater to 70mm IMAX.
-Matt
Well, to my eyes the flaws involved with projecting film were obvious, from the dim screen to the vignetting to the flecks of pesky dust that sometimes appeared. The extra visual information allowed for by the 1.43:1 aspect ratio was not "make or break" stuff when it comes to being sucked into the movie.

So, basically, I'm OK with the crop. It fills the screen in my home theater (true, 1.43:1 would look kind of puny on that screen ) and crucially the end result looks pristine, which is a key ingredient in achieving suspension of disbelief IMO.

Obviously Nolan framed the movie so it makes sense when cropped for a widescreen presentation. IMO the IMAX film presentation was at once a gift to film geeks and a good PR stunt.

Anyhow, the tongue-in-cheek answer is that I prefer UHD digital home theater to 70mm IMAX because of the following factors:

- Cost of Tickets
- Better Popcorn
- Availability of Content
- Cleaner Bathrooms

Nolan has a love of "real" film. Good for him. I do not... zero nostalgia for that medium. Too bad film-based IMAX is stuck with a squarish/rectangular aspect ratio that is basically like watching pre-HD era TV. Of course those few theaters that can handle IMAX on film are anachronisms at this point. I happen to have one near me, and it's true that Dunkirk motivated me to go there, but as I sat in that theater I was thinking "this is the last time I'm going to bother with this."

I don't go to digital IMAX screenings, so I can't speak to how that compared.

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post #77 of 105 Old 12-31-2017, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Sony says 24 dB. I never heard it.

At 80% and mounted just behind my head second row I don't know it's there until I want to . I notice the fan on my Lumagen Pro kick in from time to time or the sound of
air moving through my HRV system, never the projector. In dead silence and without one other device running you know it's there but as the reviews all conclude, it's whisper
quiet.
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post #78 of 105 Old 12-31-2017, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Well, to my eyes the flaws involved with projecting film were obvious, from the dim screen to the vignetting to the flecks of pesky dust that sometimes appeared. The extra visual information allowed for by the 1.43:1 aspect ratio was not "make or break" stuff when it comes to being sucked into the movie.

So, basically, I'm OK with the crop. It fills the screen in my home theater (true, 1.43:1 would look kind of puny on that screen ) and crucially the end result looks pristine, which is a key ingredient in achieving suspension of disbelief IMO.

Obviously Nolan framed the movie so it makes sense when cropped for a widescreen presentation. IMO the IMAX film presentation was at once a gift to film geeks and a good PR stunt.

Anyhow, the tongue-in-cheek answer is that I prefer UHD digital home theater to 70mm IMAX because of the following factors:

- Cost of Tickets
- Better Popcorn
- Availability of Content
- Cleaner Bathrooms

Nolan has a love of "real" film. Good for him. I do not... zero nostalgia for that medium. Too bad film-based IMAX is stuck with a squarish/rectangular aspect ratio that is basically like watching pre-HD era TV. Of course those few theaters that can handle IMAX on film are anachronisms at this point. I happen to have one near me, and it's true that Dunkirk motivated me to go there, but as I sat in that theater I was thinking "this is the last time I'm going to bother with this."

I don't go to digital IMAX screenings, so I can't speak to how that compared.
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post #79 of 105 Old 01-01-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
any fan noise ?
Operating noise level measured at 3m with Laser Level set to 80 or below (average across 5 units) = 27.2 dB

Laser Level set to maximum = 42.1 dB

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post #80 of 105 Old 01-01-2018, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Operating noise level measured at 3m with Laser Level set to 80 or below (average across 5 units) = 27.2 dB

Laser Level set to maximum = 42.1 dB

Huge difference for what is essentially a 10% brightness difference.
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Huge difference for what is essentially a 10% brightness difference.
More like less than an 8% brightness difference

The light output is only reduced by circa 15% when you reduce the laser level to 60, by 30% to 30, and by 45% to 0 (=minimum)

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post #82 of 105 Old 01-01-2018, 01:50 PM
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Can anyone put those fan noise descriptions into the context of a 1080p JVC projector? How does it compare in low/high lamp modes and with e-shift buzzer engaged.
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post #83 of 105 Old 01-01-2018, 11:38 PM
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I'm sure it's lovely, but at $25k a precious few can afford it. I appreciate the review, but a projector like this just isn't attainable for 99.9999% of HT enthusiasts.
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post #84 of 105 Old 01-02-2018, 04:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhectorg View Post
I'm sure it's lovely, but at $25k a precious few can afford it. I appreciate the review, but a projector like this just isn't attainable for 99.9999% of HT enthusiasts.
By your math there are only 323 people in the U.S. that can afford this projector. It's not that expensive, the big shots have even pricier gear to pick from.

For what it's worth, the VPL-VW285ES comes surprisingly close in performance, for a much milder price.

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post #85 of 105 Old 01-02-2018, 08:10 AM
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I'm sure it's lovely, but at $25k a precious few can afford it. I appreciate the review, but a projector like this just isn't attainable for 99.9999% of HT enthusiasts.
Well, .0001 percent of the world populous has purchased everything available in the model for the first couple rounds manufactured, many have to wait months to get one at this point . As far as MSRP pricing goes
you may find different pricing for all the brands if you are prepared to shop around. Not sure you always pay dealer MSRP for your car when that time comes, I think you understand how this works.

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post #86 of 105 Old 01-02-2018, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
By your math there are only 323 people in the U.S. that can afford this projector. It's not that expensive, the big shots have even pricier gear to pick from.

For what it's worth, the VPL-VW285ES comes surprisingly close in performance, for a much milder price.
Compared to a boat or private plane ( either of which can run anywhere from $200K and up ), a VW885 is a bargain. And there are a lot more than 323 people in the US that own private planes and boats, judging from the number of boats in boat harbors !

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post #87 of 105 Old 01-02-2018, 04:26 PM
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I'm posting this here from Lumagen Radiance Pro and Sony VW5000ES threads as you may have some insight into the below question and perhaps if appropriate could contact Sony regarding whether they could revise firmware to have a "Pixel Perfect" pass through mode for use with the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
For those of us with the VW5000ES laser projector or another Sony laser projector, or the JVC top line laser projector (which all have 4096 X 2160 panels) and the Lumagen Radiance Pro:

For "regular" HD sources (1080i and 720p at 59.54 Hz; and blu rays 1080p 23.94 Hz), is it better to set the Radiance Pro to output 4096 X 2160 (the full panel of the VW5000ES) vs 3840 X 2160 (the consumer standard for 4k broadcast and 4K Ultra blu ray discs)?

Using 4096 X 2160 will utilize the full VW5000ES panel and thus somewhat more light output from the projector; whereas using 3840 X 2160, at least for 1080i and 1080p sources, is an exact doubling of the HD frame rate.
______________________

I emailed Jim Peterson of Lumagen and here's his illuminating response:

4096x2160 is not the correct aspect ratio for 16:9 if you are a 16:9 screen and in fact 4096x2160 will not fit correctly on a 16:9 screen. If you have a 2.35 screen then show 16:9 in a pillar box, or do NLS, then 4096 wide can be fine and there should be a bit more light.

Note that for 4k 2.35 (or 2.4, etc.) consumer movies filling the 4096 means you must scale. Scaling will reduce the resolution slightly verses no scaling (we have the best scaling and have less “softening” but there is always some with any scaler). So if the projector can do pixel for pixel without scaling then 3840 wide can have a very slightly better image.

NOTE: The Sony VW5000ES does not appear capable of pixel-for-pixel output. It does zone based RGB convergence the apparently cannot be disabled (unlike the new models like the 885 which where this can be disabled in the service menu). To see this effect put up the Radiance Pro every other pixel patterns. However, because of this “always on scaling” in the VW5000ES you might find 4096 wide looks as good as 3840 wide since it lacks a pixel perfect mode.
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Reading the VW5000ES manual, I was hoping that the Motion Flow "Cinema" setting might do pixel perfect. But it states that it maintains the original frame rate, nothing about pixel perfect. Anyone know if by chance any of the Motion Flow or other settings in the VW5000 menu allow for "pixel perfect" as well as original frame rate without any further video processing or scaling (probably not)?

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post #88 of 105 Old 01-02-2018, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
I'm posting this here from Lumagen Radiance Pro and Sony VW5000ES threads as you may have some insight into the below question and perhaps if appropriate could contact Sony regarding whether they could revise firmware to have a "Pixel Perfect" pass through mode for use with the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

__________________


______________________

I emailed Jim Peterson of Lumagen and here's his illuminating response:

4096x2160 is not the correct aspect ratio for 16:9 if you are a 16:9 screen and in fact 4096x2160 will not fit correctly on a 16:9 screen. If you have a 2.35 screen then show 16:9 in a pillar box, or do NLS, then 4096 wide can be fine and there should be a bit more light.

Note that for 4k 2.35 (or 2.4, etc.) consumer movies filling the 4096 means you must scale. Scaling will reduce the resolution slightly verses no scaling (we have the best scaling and have less “softening” but there is always some with any scaler). So if the projector can do pixel for pixel without scaling then 3840 wide can have a very slightly better image.

NOTE: The Sony VW5000ES does not appear capable of pixel-for-pixel output. It does zone based RGB convergence the apparently cannot be disabled (unlike the new models like the 885 which where this can be disabled in the service menu). To see this effect put up the Radiance Pro every other pixel patterns. However, because of this “always on scaling” in the VW5000ES you might find 4096 wide looks as good as 3840 wide since it lacks a pixel perfect mode.
_______________

Reading the VW5000ES manual, I was hoping that the Motion Flow "Cinema" setting might do pixel perfect. But it states that it maintains the original frame rate, nothing about pixel perfect. Anyone know if by chance any of the Motion Flow or other settings in the VW5000 menu allow for "pixel perfect" as well as original frame rate without any further video processing or scaling (probably not)?
I would definitely be avoiding any scaling that is not a perfect multiplier in any case, you are just going to get softness in return and degradation to the image.

1080p is exactly 2x less than UHD resolution in both directions for eg and thus 1080p to 2160p up-scaling can be incredibly sharp and worthwhile. By scaling 3840 to 4096 you are degrading the image for sure, when you spent all that money for the ultimate in picture quality only to hinder it in the final display chain its a bit of a paradox IMO.

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The Dark Knight 4K disc on this projector is up there with Dunkirk.. the second I’m looking at from the Nolan box set on this unit.. The best investment I’ve made in my AV tenure. Resolved my desire to plan for home IMAX PT install.
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post #90 of 105 Old 01-02-2018, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
any fan noise ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Sony says 24 dB. I never heard it.
In my seating position (6ft in front of projector and 5ft below it) it is 33dbA and 41dbC - this is at laser 80, so yes quieter than my old runco which was 40 and 50 IIRC but not silent. For reference my runco was 35dbA and 45dbC in the same seating position. This was watching Mad Max fwiw.

Lowering laser 70 seemed to shave about 1db off both figures.

So from my perspective most defintely noticable and nowhere near 24db (maybe it hit that when it turned the laser off on a fade to black) - the fan does speed up and slow down noticably. Note if i have sound going on a movie i don't hear it except in quiet scenes.

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A projector, some seats, a screen, oh a receiver and some speakers i guess, and a few consoles, an AT-AT, and a Millenium Falcon i need to unbox and have a display table made...
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