SONY VW885ES / VW760ES : In Depth Review & Comparisons - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
It's a different unit. That other one has a slightly better lens.

Nothing wrong with your eyes sir!

Right ok, that looks like a huge variance in lens then. I know the images appear to have been taken from different distances, but if I crop and zoom the original images, the first one you took (page 3 of this thread) looked superb, like this:



And the second set look pretty terrible, like this:



There's loads of haloing and a lot of the seems to be missing their proper colouration. Does it look like this on all the other units?
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post #722 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Right ok, that looks like a huge variance in lens then. I know the images appear to have been taken from different distances, but if I crop and zoom the original images, the first one you took (page 3 of this thread) looked superb, like this:


I will try to check mine today spent 4 hours yesterday calibrating 3D Lut for HDR, and its not an easy thing at all. Will hook up that pattern today and take some photos

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post #723 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 01:43 AM
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I will try to check mine today spent 4 hours yesterday calibrating 3D Lut for HDR, and its not an easy thing at all. Will hook up that pattern today and take some photos
Thanks, as many data points as possible is useful. I think the original test pattern file has been posted above.

Regarding your 3D LUT, are you not running SDR2020 out of your Pro?
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post #724 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 01:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jon1199 View Post
Thank you.

I might try and load up the custom HDR presets as suggested previously via the German forums (Omardris / Duty-free) but I believe gamma settings options are still not available to choose? So i would need to turn off HDR but keep the colorspace as BT2020?
Correct

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post #725 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Thanks, as many data points as possible is useful. I think the original test pattern file has been posted above.



Regarding your 3D LUT, are you not running SDR2020 out of your Pro?


Yes I am, I have talked to Jim, Gordon and Steve all helped a lot, there are some nuances in regards how you taking profile for best results and then how you converting the lut choosing different math algorithms. I did several manipulations and some I didnt like at all, so today will continue with that and once I am happy will let you know if you want about the workflow.

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post #726 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hey Nigel,

What's with that blooming on all the text? Is it possible to get rid of that?
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Right ok, that looks like a huge variance in lens then. I know the images appear to have been taken from different distances, but if I crop and zoom the original images, the first one you took (page 3 of this thread) looked superb, like this:


And the second set look pretty terrible, like this:

There's loads of haloing and a lot of the seems to be missing their proper colouration. Does it look like this on all the other units?
Guys, if we are going to dig deep specifically comparing the lens performance of the different units including comparing colour performance and the like, as opposed to the lens uniformity of a singular unit in its own right (which is what was the purpose of that second set of images I posted) then I will need to eliminate the various differences that will affect the photographs for a true apples-with-apples comparison. I will need to ensure that all the projector units have the same settings, and the camera has the same settings, and also take the photos from the same distance and angles. Some what we have here is somewhat apples-with-oranges and not truly apples-with-apples.

With the second set of photos I had the projector outputing more light than the previous set of photos with different camera settings and now that you have blown up the images I can see there is some blooming that I believe is being caused by the camera because that is not present in the projected image. And this was/is not present in the first set of photos. There are some instances of slight streaking which I have made reference to before, which is what I thought you were/are referring to, but if you are referring to the blooming that is because I need to turn down the light output of the projector and/or adjust the camera settings accordingly. This is a great test pattern but as far as photographing it is concerned I have found extra care needs to be taken because you have super intense colour and luminance with pixel precision against a pure black background, so it's very easy to end up with some lens flare and blooming in the photos especially with laser projectors where it's more intense and/or the chroma wavelength is narrower.

Give me some time and I will setup and take some proper apples-with-apples comparison photos of this test pattern with multiple different units. Then you can properly scrutinize what are the differences in lens uniformity and focus. This exercise needs to be done under controlled conditions with the same settings for absolutely everything. Let me do that for you.

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post #727 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 04:56 AM - Thread Starter
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post #728 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 05:24 AM
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Arrow a couple of questions:

1. You said the fan noise ramps up, when you go above 80%. What is the light output that you can get, staying just below 80%?
2. Can the projector can do vertical stretch with max 18 Gbps HDMI signal?

I was told yes on the second question by Sony. I am just wanting confirmation.
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post #729 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 05:29 AM
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@ARROW-AV
You are writing a lot of details about the VW760 and have studied it very intensively - However I have got a rather basic question for you:
Based on what you have seen so far would you buy this projector or not ? Did the VW760 disappoint, fulfill or exceed your exspectations ? Really curious
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post #730 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 06:29 AM
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Had my first encounter y-day. Few subjective musings I noticed during my 25 minutes, so basically 2 cents from me:

1. Lens quality
Looked at the built in test pattern, so nothing as good as what Arrow is doing, but still I have to say really good uniform sharpness compared to my 520ES. I spent a minute trying to examine the lens, looking at the projector from 20 cm distance and it looks abolutely the same on the 760ES as on my 520ES. The entire screen was sharp and in focus, only slightly less sharp in the extreme corners. I must go with the guess that they are saving the best lenses for the 760ES, a la X9 JVC series. Nothing to complain about here if this is representative of all the other specimens!

2. HDR Picture
Only watched scenes from Revenant, which to be honest is a little bit drab. Color wise, when there was blood in the river it stood out to me as the coloration was on an elevated level compared to previous SXRD HDR offerings. Wish I had had the time with more titles that would illustrate the color space more. Light wise, it was on Max Laser level and I had the feeling, that has been reported previously, that subjectively it unfortunately did not produce leaps and bounds above the 520ES in total light output. Maybe I need to point out that it is better, but filling a 130" scope screen like the one in the shop with 4k UHD HDR disc material is not an easy task. So pick your poison of a bit of Dynamic Range Conversion on a Panasonic player or some custom gamma curves if you feel inclined to improve on Sony's built in tone mapping unless you have the money to move up to a 5000ES!

3. Laser performance and Sound
As stated, we ran it in 100 Laser. I was a bit put down by reading 52 dB in this thread, but in all honesty it felt almost whisper quiet! Full force, and still hardly a breeze. Measurements is absolute, but I implore you to go and check it out in real life, because I could not hear it over the movie sound! Muted, you heard it but it did not bother me in any way. Subjectivly for me on a lower level than the Z1 in max laser which I saw in the same room. No doubt. Subjectively lower than my 520ES at home on high lamp. Did not try on 80 Laser, but if that is much lower then that's virtually imperceptible. Projector had been on for 7h uninterupted and it was hardly warm to the touch! Maybe 35C at it's warmest point, on top mid at the back. The laser drive has been constructed well indeed!

I long for one in my own room! Took a picture to console me while waiting!
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post #731 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peak View Post
Had my first encounter y-day. Few subjective musings I noticed during my 25 minutes, so basically 2 cents from me:

1. Lens quality
Looked at the built in test pattern, so nothing as good as what Arrow is doing, but still I have to say really good uniform sharpness compared to my 520ES. I spent a minute trying to examine the lens, looking at the projector from 20 cm distance and it looks abolutely the same on the 760ES as on my 520ES. The entire screen was sharp and in focus, only slightly less sharp in the extreme corners. I must go with the guess that they are saving the best lenses for the 760ES, a la X9 JVC series. Nothing to complain about here if this is representative of all the other specimens!

2. HDR Picture
Only watched scenes from Revenant, which to be honest is a little bit drab. Color wise, when there was blood in the river it stood out to me as the coloration was on an elevated level compared to previous SXRD HDR offerings. Wish I had had the time with more titles that would illustrate the color space more. Light wise, it was on Max Laser level and I had the feeling, that has been reported previously, that subjectively it unfortunately did not produce leaps and bounds above the 520ES in total light output. Maybe I need to point out that it is better, but filling a 130" scope screen like the one in the shop with 4k UHD HDR disc material is not an easy task. So pick your poison of a bit of Dynamic Range Conversion on a Panasonic player or some custom gamma curves if you feel inclined to improve on Sony's built in tone mapping unless you have the money to move up to a 5000ES!

3. Laser performance and Sound
As stated, we ran it in 100 Laser. I was a bit put down by reading 52 dB in this thread, but in all honesty it felt almost whisper quiet! Full force, and still hardly a breeze. Measurements is absolute, but I implore you to go and check it out in real life, because I could not hear it over the movie sound! Muted, you heard it but it did not bother me in any way. Subjectivly for me on a lower level than the Z1 in max laser which I saw in the same room. No doubt. Subjectively lower than my 520ES at home on high lamp. Did not try on 80 Laser, but if that is much lower then that's virtually imperceptible. Projector had been on for 7h uninterupted and it was hardly warm to the touch! Maybe 35C at it's warmest point, on top mid at the back. The laser drive has been constructed well indeed!

I long for one in my own room! Took a picture to console me while waiting!
Why would you compare sound level of JVC on high with sound level of 760 on high? That is apples to oranges since we are talking a pretty big difference (over 40%) in light output.
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post #732 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 07:28 AM
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@Peak
Nice report
@Mike
I guess Peak wanted to give the readers an indication of what would be the worst case (which is @ 100 laser and that's what he actually was judging):
Lower than a VW520 on high lamp ( I agree. These are much loader)
Lower than Z1 in max level (I agree as well)
@All
It might be argued that the noise level of a VW760 can not properly judged when in the same room a Z1 in max laser is present. No wonder Peak could hardly hear the VW760
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post #733 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Why would you compare sound level of JVC on high with sound level of 760 on high? That is apples to oranges since we are talking a pretty big difference (over 40%) in light output.
How is that not apples to apples? Max sound level on max laser?

I did not want to be part of a brand fight, but to be honest, if you want to have UHD Premium level DCI color space coverage I don't think there is a 40% brightness difference between those two specific alternatives, is there?
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post #734 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Well the grayscale is somewhat out of whack, and as you know that affects the gamma profile.

Either way, it's clearly worth calibrating this projector and folks really should either do this or have someone do it for them if they are to obtain the best performance from the projector.

That said, if/when I have time I will figure out what are the best out-of-the-box settings to yield the best out-of-the-box performance so folks can at least get the projector up and running to the best of its ability out-of-the-box. Although that will have to wait until I receive delivery of my Klein 10-A colorimeter because I need to machine-gun measurements in order to complete that task, which I can't do with a spectro because it takes ages per reading.

Nigel,
Have you come up with the "Out of the box" settings for the starting point?
Hope to have my 885es very soon.
Thanks
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post #735 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Peak View Post
How is that not apples to apples? Max sound level on max laser?

I did not want to be part of a brand fight, but to be honest, if you want to have UHD Premium level DCI color space coverage I don't think there is a 40% brightness difference between those two specific alternatives, is there?
Z1 max laser versus 885es max laser is indeed 40% difference. ~3000 lumens ~2000 lumens is more like 50% if my 6th grade math is still any good. Closer comparison of fan noise compared to light output would be Z1 in medium laser and 885es in max laser.

IMO the fan noise when you read about them both on paper versus real life for both projectors, most likely (haven't seen an 885es), I think is exaggerated. I know for me when I got my Z1 I was expecting high laser to be dreadful, but I didn't really care b/c I knew I wasn't going to need it for my setup. Then I tried it out of curiosity and was pleasantly surprised at how unobtrusive it actually was. Now when it's in high laser and there is no sound the fan is noticeable, but when there is a movie on you don't hear it at all and it doesn't drown out any surround sound IMO either (at least in my HT where the projector is about 3 feet above second row middle seat.)

IMO I wouldn't let any noise measurements you hear about the 885es be cause for concern.
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post #736 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 07:51 AM
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I will have an update regarding this soon...

And SONY has indeed responded, and it's all good.

Any update?
What did Sony have to say?
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post #737 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 08:33 AM
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Z1 max laser versus 885es max laser is indeed 40% difference. ~3000 lumens ~2000 lumens is more like 50% if my 6th grade math is still any good. Closer comparison of fan noise compared to light output would be Z1 in medium laser and 885es in max laser.

IMO the fan noise when you read about them both on paper versus real life for both projectors, most likely (haven't seen an 885es), I think is exaggerated. I know for me when I got my Z1 I was expecting high laser to be dreadful, but I didn't really care b/c I knew I wasn't going to need it for my setup. Then I tried it out of curiosity and was pleasantly surprised at how unobtrusive it actually was. Now when it's in high laser and there is no sound the fan is noticeable, but when there is a movie on you don't hear it at all and it doesn't drown out any surround sound IMO either (at least in my HT where the projector is about 3 feet above second row middle seat.)

IMO I wouldn't let any noise measurements you hear about the 885es be cause for concern.
You think it's exaggerated? LOL, are you not the one grilling me for not seeing a RS4500 making assumptions ? I go by reviews and customer feedback look at the norm , it's quite simple . In this case both Peak and Mori viewed both same time . You cannot get more conclusive evidence than that including it is based on observations only just done, NOT old information . What is tolerable or acceptable one thing , but in comparison one is audibly much less in volume , it's arguably one of the most common faults discussed about that projector . In high laser it make more noise than others . VW5000 makes noise and heat too, they just know what it is and deal with it , simple .

I'm not sure why this is being argued actually, irregardless of what is said here , the same information is available from any search on google, reviews and customer reports.
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post #738 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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As stated, we ran it in 100 Laser. I was a bit put down by reading 52 dB in this thread, but in all honesty it felt almost whisper quiet! Full force, and still hardly a breeze. Measurements is absolute, but I implore you to go and check it out in real life, because I could not hear it over the movie sound!
@Peak try taking a measurement using an accurate SPL meter. I think you will be surprised at the reading

Am I the only one who is scratching their head at people interpreting a measurement of 52 dB as being loud?

Has anyone actually taken the time to measure typical background noise levels in your home?

I just don't get it... 52 dB isn't actually very loud!

So is it just me, or does anyone else get this?

Does everyone else think 52 dB is loud?
.
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post #739 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 08:42 AM
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You think it's exaggerated? LOL, are you not the one grilling me for not seeing a RS4500 making assumptions ? I go by reviews and customer feedback look at the norm , it's quite simple . In this case both Peak and Mori viewed both same time . You cannot get more conclusive evidence than that including it is based on observations only just done, NOT old information . What is tolerable or acceptable one thing , but in comparison one is audibly much less in volume , it's arguably one of the most common faults discussed about that projector . In high laser it make more noise than others . VW5000 makes noise and heat too, they just know what it is and deal with it , simple .

I'm not sure why this is being argued actually, irregardless of what is said here , the same information is available from any search on google, reviews and customer reports.
Cool your jets buddy. Where did I say the Z1 wasn't louder in max laser than the 885es in max laser in that post? Please enlighten me. Where do you see an argument by me in regards to fan noise? You are so quick to be defensive when a JVC owner makes any comments in this thread.

All I said was that if you want to compare fan noise at comparable light output the Z1 should be in mid laser not high laser and that is not an argument. By exaggeration, I mean for whatever reason what people see in writing (ie 52db of Sony) it seems worse on paper than what you actually hear and it applies to the Z1 too. Maybe a poor choice of words by me using exaggeration but for you to think I was arguing that theZ1 is not louder than 885es is proof that whenever a JVC owner (especially RS4500 Z1) make a comment you assume we are trying to speak poorly about the 885es and that is not true at all. Time to grow up.

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post #740 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 08:44 AM
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@Peak try taking a measurement using an accurate SPL meter. I think you will be surprised at the reading



Am I the only one who is scratching their head at people interpreting a measurement of 52 dB as being loud?



Has anyone actually taken the time to measure typical background noise levels in your home?



I just don't get it... 52 dB isn't actually very loud!



So is it just me, or does anyone else get this?



Does everyone else think 52 dB is loud?

.


it will directly depend on your room geometry, materials used in walls in relate to reflections, and projector location and viewer.

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post #741 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 08:51 AM
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Isn’t the fan noise on a RS4500 really dependent on the environment vs. the laser setting? With proper ventilation, seems like it could run cooler and be quieter. I’ve read some folks have improved the noise. Does the Sony work the same or is the fan based on the brightness setting? SJ
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post #742 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@Peak try taking a measurement using an accurate SPL meter. I think you will be surprised at the reading

Am I the only one who is scratching their head at people interpreting a measurement of 52 dB as being loud?

Has anyone actually taken the time to measure typical background noise levels in your home?

I just don't get it... 52 dB isn't actually very loud!

So is it just me, or does anyone else get this?

Does everyone else think 52 dB is loud?
.
I think it is the way you are measuring it. I'm no expert on this, but most projectors measure around 30db - see the specs. The Sony's are usually around 24-26 db. Anything in the high 30's and beyond is considered "loud". Maybe it is the distance you are measuring from? I don't know what the standard is. But just seeing 52db makes it look atrocious compared to most.

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post #743 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
@Peak
Nice report
@Mike
I guess Peak wanted to give the readers an indication of what would be the worst case (which is @ 100 laser and that's what he actually was judging):
Lower than a VW520 on high lamp ( I agree. These are much loader)
Lower than Z1 in max level (I agree as well)
@All
It might be argued that the noise level of a VW760 can not properly judged when in the same room a Z1 in max laser is present. No wonder Peak could hardly hear the VW760
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Isn’t the fan noise on a RS4500 really dependent on the environment vs. the laser setting? With proper ventilation, seems like it could run cooler and be quieter. I’ve read some folks have improved the noise. Does the Sony work the same or is the fan based on the brightness setting? SJ
Fan usually increases as the heat load increases. If it didn't, then at some point it would have to shut down.
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post #744 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Isn’t the fan noise on a RS4500 really dependent on the environment vs. the laser setting? With proper ventilation, seems like it could run cooler and be quieter. I’ve read some folks have improved the noise. Does the Sony work the same or is the fan based on the brightness setting? SJ
Fan usually increases as the heat load increases. If it didn't, then at some point it would have to shut down.
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post #745 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Isn’t the fan noise on a RS4500 really dependent on the environment vs. the laser setting? With proper ventilation, seems like it could run cooler and be quieter. I’ve read some folks have improved the noise. Does the Sony work the same or is the fan based on the brightness setting? SJ
If Roxie will permit me talking about the RS4500. Yes if the rear of the RS4500 is close to a wall it will sound louder b/c the majority of the noise is from the rear intake. Mine is 5 foot from the back wall so there isn't any reverberation back towards the seating area. Before the first firmware update the unit would kick into turbo quickly if the ambient temps got too warm, they improved upon this threshold I believe with that first firmware. I never operated my unit on original firmware so I don't have experience with it. I keep my room at 72 degrees and the fan noise stayed at constant pitch the few times I actually used high laser to watch a film. I only used high laser to experiment with the fan noise during a movie and added brightness to see if I desired it and I have found for my HT that medium is plenty bright for my tastes.

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post #746 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glabelle17 View Post
I think it is the way you are measuring it. I'm no expert on this, but most projectors measure around 30db - see the specs. The Sony's are usually around 24-26 db. Anything in the high 30's and beyond is considered "loud". Maybe it is the distance you are measuring from? I don't know what the standard is. But just seeing 52db makes it look atrocious compared to most.
You have to bear in mind that manufacturers will quote a figure that is the lowest the projector will produce, not the highest. They will also probably A-weight it which produces a lower figure. They will also measure from 3 metres, not 1 metre, which will also make it lower. There is probably no projector out there that can achieve 25dB at one meter C-weighted on max output.

As Nigel said, if most people were to measure a standard room in their own house, they would probably be quite surprised by the level of the general noise floor.
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post #747 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by baseball0618 View Post
Cool your jets buddy. Where did I say the Z1 was louder in max laser than the 885es in max laser in that post? Please enlighten me. Where do you see an argument by me in regards to fan noise? You are so quick to be defensive when a JVC owner make any comments in this thread.

All I said was that if you want to compare fan noise at comparable light output the Z1 should be in mid laser not high laser and that is not an argument. By exaggeration, I mean for whatever reason what people see in writing (ie 52db of Sony) it seems worse on paper that what you actually hear and it applies to the Z1 too. Maybe a poor choice of words by me using exaggeration but for you to think I was arguing that Z1 is not louder than 885es is proof that whenever a JVC owner (especially RS4500 Z1) make a comment you assume we are trying to speak poorly about the 885es and that is not true at all. Time to grow up.
Cool your jets, what a joke.

I don't actually really want to discuss the RS4500 to be honest, it's why I'm here in this thread. The RS4500 is a solid projector, I have many friends with these , they are super pleased . I would have been too I'm sure If I had gone that way
but for many reasons I chose not to go that way.

Plenty of comparisons going on in the RS4500 thread all the time, I guarantee some of the discussion is not always accurate and certainly contentious . I'm pretty sure I don't see a group of Sony owners over thee are
arguing these contentious remarks , I just find that very interesting .

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post #748 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
You have to bear in mind that manufacturers will quote a figure that is the lowest the projector will produce, not the highest. They will also probably A-weight it which produces a lower figure. They will also measure from 3 metres, not 1 metre, which will also make it lower. There is probably no projector out there that can achieve 25dB at one meter C-weighted on max output.

As Nigel said, if most people were to measure a standard room in their own house, they would probably be quite surprised by the level of the general noise floor.
Here's a thread on how to measure it. I still haven't found the definitive, industry standard procedure. Some reviews give the figure based on high lamp and eco mode. Still 30db and below is considered good.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...n-s-noise.html

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post #749 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Fan usually increases as the heat load increases. If it didn't, then at some point it would have to shut down.
@Peak had his running 7 hours straight

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post #750 of 1972 Old 12-07-2017, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BOBCAT View Post
Nigel,
Have you come up with the "Out of the box" settings for the starting point?
Hope to have my 885es very soon.
Thanks
Well assuming that FedEX deliver my Klein T-10A tomorrow, as scheduled, I will be able to post my preferred settings on here very soon

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Originally Posted by BOBCAT View Post
Any update?
What did Sony have to say?
I will be able to provide an detailed update regarding this soon as well.

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