Official Sony VW885ES / VW760ES Owner's Thread - Page 131 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3901 of 4728 Old 01-10-2019, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by silver700 View Post
Really? Interesting. Any particular reason or reasons for this?
If you are already prepared to spend 23k (AUD) to buy the 760ES in Australia, the additional 8k for the 870ES is a relatively easy upsell.

If you already have the 760ES, be prepared to take a blood bath on the resale - 12k if you are lucky, then pay another 20k for the 870ES, it's not quite good value.

Also for Australians, I would just wait out for the replacement to the JVC Z1. The Z1 was AUD$38k IIRC and if the replacement is going to cost the same with better native contrast panels along with the auto tone mapping and chipset improvements, it might be an even more compelling upgrade.
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post #3902 of 4728 Old 01-10-2019, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
If you are already prepared to spend 23k (AUD) to buy the 760ES in Australia, the additional 8k for the 870ES is a relatively easy upsell.
Speak for yourself. $23k was a lot of money to spend, I wouldn’t have considered the next one up as that would have meant no money to spend on the screen, Atmos speakers and install. For me it was more looking at the 760 and the next model down.
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post #3903 of 4728 Old 01-10-2019, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by silver700 View Post
But i wonder what the consensus would be if you DIDN'T already own the 760 and had to choose between the 870 or the 760 AND you could get the 870 for 6-7k more. What would one do then.
If I didn't have a 760 and I was shopping, I would need to see them next to each other. I suspect that it would still be an easy sale for the 760, as the difference between them simply isn't worth the extra cash to me.

However, if one simply wants the top model with all available features and no mucking about (notwithstanding the 5000 of course), then one would just go with the 870 and have done with it.

However personally, not being the kind to just chuck money at something that may not be great on the *value* side of things, I would need to do some due diligence and hopefully see them in the same environment and equally calibrated.

I am not a 'buy the top model simply *because*' type of person. I do like some value for money to come into it.
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post #3904 of 4728 Old 01-10-2019, 06:33 AM
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The 995 is a fantastic projector, I like it much better than my previous 885. The picture is way better, it´s very easy to see. Worth every Penny to me.
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post #3905 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
If I didn't have a 760 and I was shopping, I would need to see them next to each other. I suspect that it would still be an easy sale for the 760, as the difference between them simply isn't worth the extra cash to me.

However, if one simply wants the top model with all available features and no mucking about (notwithstanding the 5000 of course), then one would just go with the 870 and have done with it.

However personally, not being the kind to just chuck money at something that may not be great on the *value* side of things, I would need to do some due diligence and hopefully see them in the same environment and equally calibrated.

I am not a 'buy the top model simply *because*' type of person. I do like some value for money to come into it.
Enjoy yours for the next 3 years... then shop for something way better for lower price... the moment JVC decides to do away with their 4k lamp based projectors and go all out lasers, both Sony and JVCs would be competing (although I wouldn't hold my breath as JVC were years late into the 4K game, they might also be years late into the laser game)... and don't rule out other brands as well... Benq is a good contender... i think we are at a cusp of 'lamp being obsolete', and HDMI 2.1 and DCIP3... so, for me, after I sold my 500ES Im going to ride out the next 2 years with a cheaper projector.... i would hate to spend something like $20K only to find everything becomes obsolete in 2 years...
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post #3906 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Oh ok, I missed the point where you had it in HDR mode, I thought you had the Panny 820? If so you should be outputting as SDR2020 to avoid Sony’s broken HDR gamma curve, and also so as to not overlay two different tone mapping curves. If you’re doing that it’s probabaly why you have to crank the brightness up so high.
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@Wookii beat me to it...I don't understand how you do this leaving HDR On with respect to doubling up the curves and Sony's is so dark at either setting...it is why I was hoping we would get an update to their curves even though I don't use them.
I do not get these arguments for SDR2020 at all. When you run HDR Optimizer in the Pany on an OLED, you still use the manufacturers built in tone mapper on that TV set. In that setting you will get two tone mappings as well. For any non dynamic HDR playback, you will either 1. live with static 2. use the TV sets dynamic HDR function or 3. Buy a Pany and use that HDR Optimizer feature. In both 2. & 3. you will end up with what you call "doubled curves" and HDR Optimizer is not a function built exclusively for projector use.

I for one find the result of UB9000 HDR Optimizer with VW760 HDR ON result extremely similar to my old UB900 picture with custom curves or for that matter my OLED setup with dynamic HDR in the set and an old UHD player. It's just that it's now fire and forget in my projector setup and most importantly it's disc independent!
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post #3907 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 02:11 AM
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I too use HDR optimizer and leave the Panasonic go output HDR from discs.

The video quality looks a lot like my Sony ZD9/Oppo203 in Dolby Vision mode playing Black Panther.
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post #3908 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 05:13 AM
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Hey all!
After having read so many positive things about the UB820, particularly when paired with this projector, I decided to pick one up even though I have an Oppo 205 that I'm very pleased with.
I hooked it up last night and did some quick tests of my own, playing with the HDR optimizer and HDR vs SDR/BT2020 and finally compared a few scenes with the Oppo.
Unfortunately, I really could not see much difference. Maybe some minor improvements in shadow detail but that was pretty much it. Certainly nothing revolutionary.

Now, like I said these were just my preliminary findings after some quick testing. I'm sure I can get better results after spending some more time tweaking and trying out different setups.
To do that, I would very much appreciate if some of you with the UB820/es885 combo could share your preferred settings on both the player and projector.
Oh, and also some recommendation for good UHD movies w/ time-stamps for testing.

Thanks
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post #3909 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Peak View Post
I do not get these arguments for SDR2020 at all.
I am not advocating BT2020/SDR. I was questioning laying a player-led HDR 2390 tone map on top of the Sony in-built HDR tonemap (Auto/Reference/HDR10). I understand a potential benefit but was thinking that the Sony in-built curves were so bad that the benefit would be lost. The other question was the inability to correct the in-built curves to what they should be even if this is a better system. At least for me the standard gamma curves are pretty far off what they should be (gamma point levels and R/G/B balance) so I am assuming the HDR curves to be off as well. I'll look into picking up a 820 to try this. There is the separate question of BT2020/SDR and if this was used then touching up the in-built 2.4 (or whatever in-built gamma is used) may be beneficial.
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post #3910 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Peak View Post
I do not get these arguments for SDR2020 at all.
To confirm further what jqmn has posted above, I'm not talking about tone mapping HDR to SDR luminance levels (SDR2020 is admittedly a confusing term) but simply tone mapping in the source device (be the Panny 820, or Lumagen Pro in my case) and outputting without HDR flags. The display device then doesn't see this as a HDR signal, and can apply a standard 2.4 power gamma for the source device to tone map into. The overall luminance levels are the same as if you sent out the HDR signal.

The problem with overlaying two different tone mapping curves is you introduce a lot more unpredictability into the results, and you have no way of accurately calibrating. By outputting as described above, you can calibrate the display to a very accurate 2.4 power gamma with good RGB balance, so that the source tone map is accurately represented on screen.

Its more long winded, and involves the use of the proper tools, but the result will be more accurate and more faithful to the source material, and ultimately will result in better picture quality.
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post #3911 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Peak View Post
I do not get these arguments for SDR2020 at all. When you run HDR Optimizer in the Pany on an OLED, you still use the manufacturers built in tone mapper on that TV set. In that setting you will get two tone mappings as well. For any non dynamic HDR playback, you will either 1. live with static 2. use the TV sets dynamic HDR function or 3. Buy a Pany and use that HDR Optimizer feature. In both 2. & 3. you will end up with what you call "doubled curves" and HDR Optimizer is not a function built exclusively for projector use.

I for one find the result of UB9000 HDR Optimizer with VW760 HDR ON result extremely similar to my old UB900 picture with custom curves or for that matter my OLED setup with dynamic HDR in the set and an old UHD player. It's just that it's now fire and forget in my projector setup and most importantly it's disc independent!
And that is a very important point for me. Fire and forget and disc independent. I find it works exceptionally well and no need to muck about with conversions.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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Last edited by Archibald1; 01-11-2019 at 07:00 AM.
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post #3912 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
I am not advocating BT2020/SDR. I was questioning laying a player-led HDR 2390 tone map on top of the Sony in-built HDR tonemap (Auto/Reference/HDR10). I understand a potential benefit but was thinking that the Sony in-built curves were so bad that the benefit would be lost. The other question was the inability to correct the in-built curves to what they should be even if this is a better system. At least for me the standard gamma curves are pretty far off what they should be (gamma point levels and R/G/B balance) so I am assuming the HDR curves to be off as well. I'll look into picking up a 820 to try this. There is the separate question of BT2020/SDR and if this was used then touching up the in-built 2.4 (or whatever in-built gamma is used) may be beneficial.
In my case I have to say that my PQ/EOTF curve has been calibrated and that may have something to do with it how I find it to watch.

I think both methods have their pros and cons but the HDR method is a lot less 'labour intensive' to get to an extremely pleasing picture.

Also there is only so much fiddling I want to do these days before I actually sit down and enjoy watching the thing! Once the picture is pleasing, just watch some movies!

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Last edited by Archibald1; 01-11-2019 at 06:58 AM.
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post #3913 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 07:09 AM
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In my case I have to say that my PQ/EOTF curve has been calibrated and that may have something to do with it how I find it to watch.

I think both methods have their pros and cons but the HDR method is a lot less 'labour intensive' to get to an extremely pleasing picture.

Also there is only so much fiddling I want to do these days before I actually sit down and enjoy watching the thing! Once the picture is pleasing, just watch some movies!
I support the set it and forget it mentality if it works. It sounds like you aren't using the Sony in-built HDR function but a custom curve. Can you be more specific or do you have the details on that curve and your process beginning to end? Thanks.
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post #3914 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 07:22 AM
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I support the set it and forget it mentality if it works. It sounds like you aren't using the Sony in-built HDR function but a custom curve. Can you be more specific or do you have the details on that curve and your process beginning to end? Thanks.
My calibrator calibrated the EOTF curve using his gear. That is what is used and I leave HDR on AUTO on the projector. That is it.

I also had gamma 2.4 calibrated for SDR and that too is most pleasing. The main difference is that on HDR content the brightness control is set much higher on the projector.

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post #3915 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 07:31 AM
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Agree. Happy with mine. Not going to bother with any upgrades. 🙂
I would find it hard to justify going from 885 to 995. 885 throws a very nice image. Yes 995 throws a little better image, but hard to justify coming from 885. Now if you were coming from a 1000 or 1100, then I would certainly consider the 995.
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post #3916 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 07:33 AM
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My calibrator calibrated the EOTF curve using his gear. That is what is used and I leave HDR on AUTO on the projector. That is it.
This is the piece I don't understand . The Sony in-built HDR curves are not exposed thru either Image Director or Calibration Pro so I am not sure how he did that.
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post #3917 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 07:49 AM
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This is the piece I don't understand . The Sony in-built HDR curves are not exposed thru either Image Director or Calibration Pro so I am not sure how he did that.
I don't know, but he used something called Calman(?)

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post #3918 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 07:55 AM
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I don't know, but he used something called Calman(?)
That is a calibration software package that has some integration capability with JVC; don't think it has that for Sony (not listed as a supported projector brand). Based on what you say this was used to do your Rec709/SDR/2.4 work and adjust the Sony in-built BT2020 color space preset but not the HDR pieces.
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post #3919 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
That is a calibration software package that has some integration capability with JVC; don't think it has that for Sony (not listed as a supported projector brand). Based on what you say this was used to do your Rec709/SDR/2.4 work and adjust the Sony in-built BT2020 color space preset but not the HDR pieces.
The print out specifically has HDR (inside a rainbow coloured circle) on the branding and the EOTF curve was altered.
That is all I know.

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And that is a very important point for me. Fire and forget and disc independent. I find it works exceptionally well and no need to muck about with conversions.
So you use the Panasonic in HDR/2020 with HDR-Optimiser „on“ and the VW760 in HDR mode.
Do you also use the Contrast Enhance of the Sony, and if so, what setting of the CE do you use?
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post #3921 of 4728 Old 01-11-2019, 01:50 PM
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So you use the Panasonic in HDR/2020 with HDR-Optimiser „on“ and the VW760 in HDR mode.
Do you also use the Contrast Enhance of the Sony, and if so, what setting of the CE do you use?
Contrast Enhancer set to medium or maximum depending on the film.
I am trying to make it look as good to the eye as possible from my seat, without pixel peeping and constantly fiddling.

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post #3922 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 06:10 AM
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I want to contribute positives to this thread, but I’m struggling with the 885.

First, it makes a loud buzzing sound (like an old, cheap DLP projector) - much, much louder than my 385 - and I haven’t been able to sit through an entire movie because it’s so distracting. I dread having to engage Sony support, but I suspect that’s the next step.

Second, I haven’t found image settings that are satisfying. I’d hoped to take advantage of the Lumagen and copied the configuration posted by @SoulOfUniverse , as he has a similar stack to mine, but the resulting image was washed out. I must have done something wrong; so I undid those settings and have been trying to find a good combination that’s bright but with blacks that aren’t too gray.

There have been a few recommended settings over the last couple of pages in this thread that I’ll try today.

The reality is I need to find a great calibrator that’s willing to travel to my neck of the woods.

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post #3923 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 06:22 AM
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I want to contribute positives to this thread, but I’m struggling with the 885.



First, it makes a loud buzzing sound (like an old, cheap DLP projector) - much, much louder than my 385 - and I haven’t been able to sit through an entire movie because it’s so distracting. I dread having to engage Sony support, but I suspect that’s the next step.



Second, I haven’t found image settings that are satisfying. I’d hoped to take advantage of the Lumagen and copied the configuration posted by @SoulOfUniverse , as he has a similar stack to mine, but the resulting image was washed out. I must have done something wrong; so I undid those settings and have been trying to find a good combination that’s bright but with blacks that aren’t too gray.



There have been a few recommended settings over the last couple of pages in this thread that I’ll try today.



The reality is I need to find a great calibrator that’s willing to travel to my neck of the woods.


As for noise, if you set the laser below 80 it should be okay. If not there must be a problem. My 760 is in the same league as my old 320.

As for blacks, as a quick fix, try playing with gamma settings and just find the right spot for you and your setup. Then find a good calibrator or do it yourself.
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post #3924 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Speakender View Post
I want to contribute positives to this thread, but I’m struggling with the 885.

First, it makes a loud buzzing sound (like an old, cheap DLP projector) - much, much louder than my 385 - and I haven’t been able to sit through an entire movie because it’s so distracting. I dread having to engage Sony support, but I suspect that’s the next step.

Second, I haven’t found image settings that are satisfying. I’d hoped to take advantage of the Lumagen and copied the configuration posted by @SoulOfUniverse , as he has a similar stack to mine, but the resulting image was washed out. I must have done something wrong; so I undid those settings and have been trying to find a good combination that’s bright but with blacks that aren’t too gray.

There have been a few recommended settings over the last couple of pages in this thread that I’ll try today.

The reality is I need to find a great calibrator that’s willing to travel to my neck of the woods.
Have you checked settings for dynamic range? It should be limited for videosignals 16-235?
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post #3925 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 08:15 AM
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Have you checked settings for dynamic range? It should be limited for videosignals 16-235?
Should Dynamic Range be set to Limited for both SDR and HDR sources or only for SDR sources (e.g., when the Lumagen’s tone mapping capabilities are being used for HDR content)?

Separately, the only MotionFlow options I have are Impulse and Off; not sure why other options aren’t listed. Any ideas?

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post #3926 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 08:47 AM
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Should Dynamic Range be set to Limited for both SDR and HDR sources or only for SDR sources (e.g., when the Lumagen’s tone mapping capabilities are being used for HDR content)?



Separately, the only MotionFlow options I have are Impulse and Off; not sure why other options aren’t listed. Any ideas?


At 4096x2160p, that’s the only available options. Below all options should be available.
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post #3927 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 08:49 AM
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I want to contribute positives to this thread, but I’m struggling with the 885.

First, it makes a loud buzzing sound (like an old, cheap DLP projector) - much, much louder than my 385 - and I haven’t been able to sit through an entire movie because it’s so distracting. I dread having to engage Sony support, but I suspect that’s the next step.

Second, I haven’t found image settings that are satisfying. I’d hoped to take advantage of the Lumagen and copied the configuration posted by @SoulOfUniverse , as he has a similar stack to mine, but the resulting image was washed out. I must have done something wrong; so I undid those settings and have been trying to find a good combination that’s bright but with blacks that aren’t too gray.

There have been a few recommended settings over the last couple of pages in this thread that I’ll try today.

The reality is I need to find a great calibrator that’s willing to travel to my neck of the woods.
Sounds like a bad phosphor wheel. Get the unit changed/repaired ASAP. Best to do that before the expense of a calibration.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
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post #3928 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 09:58 AM
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Should Dynamic Range be set to Limited for both SDR and HDR sources?
Yes
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post #3929 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 12:03 PM
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Also for Australians, I would just wait out for the replacement to the JVC Z1. The Z1 was AUD$38k IIRC and if the replacement is going to cost the same with better native contrast panels along with the auto tone mapping and chipset improvements, it might be an even more compelling upgrade.
The "Z2" had an "estimated" price tag of around AUD$80K !!
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post #3930 of 4728 Old 01-12-2019, 02:27 PM
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The "Z2" had an "estimated" price tag of around AUD$80K !!

So they will keep the Z1 as is? Maybe there is a higher end model above the Z1 but the Z2 I was alluding to would be a direct replacement for the Z1. Maybe like the way the N7 is to the NX9
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