Official Sony VW885ES / VW760ES Owner's Thread - Page 167 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4981 of 5640 Old 09-19-2019, 03:58 PM
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Official Sony VW885ES / VW760ES Owner's Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
I also agree that because of all this and because of what JVC is offering in their units Sony is at a competitive disadvantage and will likely bring some form of DTM down the road.

What JVC is offering for there customer is fantastic ( Still won’t trade laser for bulb ) but I cannot see Sony offering DTM in any of there current models at all. I’m hoping companies like Panasonic will offer DTM in there UB9000 player via firmware but in reality they will more likely release a new player with DTM on board but then again maybe not either. Ive emailed Sony and mentioned it to them ( They knew anyway ) but I guess it’s alway good to hear it from a customer.



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post #4982 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 01:57 AM
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After one day with this projector I thought I'd share my initial impressions as so many new owners have done earlier in the thread. My basis for comparison is my previous projector, a VW260/285ES.

Pros:
* Well, it's a lot brighter, isn't it. And that extra brightness really can be put to some good uses: HDR and 3D benefit expecially, but games also take on a far more vibrant, rich and solid-looking quality than my previous projector
* Image stability is also very noticeble. I wasn't sensitive to lamp microflicker, but I do notice when it's not there
* 3D is astonishing once properly tweaked – Avatar is still the gold standard and I've never seen it looking like that. Absolutely mesmerising
* It does really very well indeed with HDR. It's very noticeable running HDR versus SDR where it all felt pretty much the same with my previous projector. Nice not to have to fall back on external mapping of any kind. I know some of you swear by it, but I'm genuinely happy with the internal HDR curves right now – at least until its calibrated
* This thing does colour like nothing I've ever seen in a projector. Absolutely eye-melting colour reproduction (albeit a lot of red push at the mo as not yet calibrated)
* Decent enough blacks in MOST situations
* It's quiet enough I don't notice it so long as there are other sounds in the room

Cons:
* I know there was a lot of back and forth in this thread and the other regarding its black performance in near-dark scenes and I totally concur with @Bandyka on this. Perceived contrast in low light scenes is pretty awful. Just try watching a dark show like Sabrina or Carnival Row and this PJ does not do well at all. Obviously, the new firmware is looking to address precisely this, so I will leave that there
* The OOTB colours are quite a long way off. Like, I'm an amateur/enthusiast with an amateur's eye and yet I can see how far off it is

Other than that, looking forward to the weekend. The Mrs and I are going to watch the Hobbit trilogy in 3D – she hasn't seen it. So a bit of a marathon. I've no doubt this will be my projector for the next five years or so. Roll on the firmware!
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post #4983 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Why is it called SDR/BT2020 then?
Surely it doesn't matter where the tone mapping is done, as soon as SDR comes into it anywhere along the line then it is 100nit mapping all the way, which is not HDR. Removing the flag (on the Oppo results in BT709 being selected if I am not mistaken) and that is just a colour space too.
HDRs effectiveness is measured in nits. 10000 of which would mean no tone mapping of any sort required. So whilst tone mapping say a 4000 nit source into 100nits can be very effective (especially for projectors) it cannot in all good faith be called HDR. It is more, 'HDR effect'.
I mean, technically any tone mapping at all is not really HDR.
It was released to sell TVs and they are now playing catch up with the spec, which of course manufacturers love, as it means they can keep selling TVs with the same HDR sticker but with more brightness as tech progresses.
HDR tonemapping doesn't need to be to 100nits. SDR in this case means just that the gamma expected in display is standard/straight 2.4. With Lumagen or MadVR you tell the processor your exact max nits, be it 50, 200 or 500, then the processor maps the sources larger range to exactly that range dynamically depending on the scene.

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post #4984 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDesigns View Post
HDR tonemapping doesn't need to be to 100nits. SDR in this case means just that the gamma expected in display is standard/straight 2.4. With Lumagen or MadVR you tell the processor your exact max nits, be it 50, 200 or 500, then the processor maps the sources larger range to exactly that range dynamically depending on the scene.

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No of course it doesn't.

However when a signal is converted to SDR, then by definition it is 100nit (or lower for really bad displays) and aggressive mapping must be used.

It must take a lot of grunt to map 4000nits down to 50 if necessary and not make the image look like it is all shot in the dark!

HDR is based on range of brightness first and foremost, which is why projectors (especially) need to get brighter first and foremost, but also this needs coupling with better and more granular light control.
Without the brightness, the extra volume of colours is hard to accurately display.

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post #4985 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
That is what I was doing wrong!

Seriously though, there are a couple of versions of how to update doing the rounds, so it pays to gen up so there are no surprises.

The way that worked for me was:

Grab a cuppa and something to read.
Power off at mains. Wait for light to go out.
Insert USB stick with firmware on it.
Power on
Blinking of lights ensues.
Have a read of magazine or whatever whilst enjoying one's beverage.
Wait until you hear the units power relay click to power the unit down and only then remove the USB stick.
Then power back up (can take a little longer than normal) and marvel in the new functions!

Don't take those instructions as gospel by the way, it is just how I remember it!
Wait, you already have the new firmware?

I thought it'll be released in end of Sept
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post #4986 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
What JVC is offering for there customer is fantastic ( Still won’t trade laser for bulb ) but I cannot see Sony offering DTM in any of there current models at all. I’m hoping companies like Panasonic will offer DTM in there UB9000 player via firmware but in reality they will more likely release a new player with DTM on board but then again maybe not either. Ive emailed Sony and mentioned it to them ( They knew anyway ) but I guess it’s alway good to hear it from a customer.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I am with you there. No going back from a stable light source such as this once you have had it.

There is no technical reason for Sony not to offer DTM I feel, or indeed Panasonic for that matter, who could doubtless add DTM pretty easily to their 2nd Gen HCX processor via a firmware update.

That would work and also put them into a (seemingly growing) number of firms that are looking to be looking after customers that spend inordinate amounts of cash on entertainment gear rather than force an upgrade path. Nice.

That upgrade path is one that inevitably just leads to lots of unwanted gear at the bottom of the market (after people have sold on their old units and in turn their buyers have sold on their old units etc, etc, until you get to the really old stuff no one wants that goes to the tip with all the environmental problems associated with that.

Supporting kit for longer makes sense for everyone.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #4987 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Howdle View Post
After one day with this projector I thought I'd share my initial impressions as so many new owners have done earlier in the thread. My basis for comparison is my previous projector, a VW260/285ES.

Pros:
* Well, it's a lot brighter, isn't it. And that extra brightness really can be put to some good uses: HDR and 3D benefit expecially, but games also take on a far more vibrant, rich and solid-looking quality than my previous projector
* Image stability is also very noticeble. I wasn't sensitive to lamp microflicker, but I do notice when it's not there
* 3D is astonishing once properly tweaked – Avatar is still the gold standard and I've never seen it looking like that. Absolutely mesmerising
* It does really very well indeed with HDR. It's very noticeable running HDR versus SDR where it all felt pretty much the same with my previous projector. Nice not to have to fall back on external mapping of any kind. I know some of you swear by it, but I'm genuinely happy with the internal HDR curves right now – at least until its calibrated
* This thing does colour like nothing I've ever seen in a projector. Absolutely eye-melting colour reproduction (albeit a lot of red push at the mo as not yet calibrated)
* Decent enough blacks in MOST situations
* It's quiet enough I don't notice it so long as there are other sounds in the room

Cons:
* I know there was a lot of back and forth in this thread and the other regarding its black performance in near-dark scenes and I totally concur with @Bandyka on this. Perceived contrast in low light scenes is pretty awful. Just try watching a dark show like Sabrina or Carnival Row and this PJ does not do well at all. Obviously, the new firmware is looking to address precisely this, so I will leave that there
* The OOTB colours are quite a long way off. Like, I'm an amateur/enthusiast with an amateur's eye and yet I can see how far off it is

Other than that, looking forward to the weekend. The Mrs and I are going to watch the Hobbit trilogy in 3D – she hasn't seen it. So a bit of a marathon. I've no doubt this will be my projector for the next five years or so. Roll on the firmware!
As far as OOTB colours go, some are way better than others, but this is why calibration is so key for these things.

After the firmware, it will look spectacular (more so).

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post #4988 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:24 AM
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Yes, I can't imagine them bringing DTM to the current units. Activating the iris and DFO in this unit probably was the result of more marketing meetings all the way to the top than they have had in years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
What JVC is offering for there customer is fantastic ( Still won’t trade laser for bulb ) but I cannot see Sony offering DTM in any of there current models at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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post #4989 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Wait, you already have the new firmware?

I thought it'll be released in end of Sept
I wish.

But only 10 days to go mind!

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post #4990 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I am with you there. No going back from a stable light source such as this once you have had it.



There is no technical reason for Sony not to offer DTM I feel, or indeed Panasonic for that matter, who could doubtless add DTM pretty easily to their 2nd Gen HCX processor via a firmware update.




I hope they would but I just cannot see it happening. I’m happy to be wrong in this one
As me and you discussed Months ago it takes a bit of time to set up these player with the right source Eg panasonic you wont look back.


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post #4991 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
I hope they would but I just cannot see it happening. I’m happy to be wrong in this one
As me and you discussed Months ago it takes a bit of time to set up these player with the right source Eg panasonic you wont look back.


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I am remaining hopeful.

Remember that not so long ago, Sony said they were NOT going to activate the iris in the 760...…. Let alone some of the other stuff that is being added that NO-ONE expected.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #4992 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I wish.



But only 10 days to go mind!


I’m sure once you guys will get the update you will all be happy with it.


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post #4993 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I am remaining hopeful.



Remember that not so long ago, Sony said they were NOT going to activate the iris in the 760...…. Let alone some of the other stuff that is being added that NO-ONE expected.



I’m hoping but I won’t hold my breath. Who knows maybe next year. Maybe will should ask to Sony to work with Madvr or even lumagen for there DTM. Now I’m dreaming


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post #4994 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:36 AM
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If you haven't fixed gamma yet from OOTB you are missing what the unit can do, especially at the bottom and lower mid tones. Until we see what the new f/w does we won't know but it is highly likely it will still not be close to JVC. Hopefully they have tweaked from what they initially rolled out in the 995; probably not. Even then once you get just north of that the unit excels.

709 color is usually pretty good OOTB but can be made closer with tweaking and perfect with a processor. 2020 is another can of worms altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Howdle View Post

Cons:
* I know there was a lot of back and forth in this thread and the other regarding its black performance in near-dark scenes and I totally concur with @Bandyka on this. Perceived contrast in low light scenes is pretty awful. Just try watching a dark show like Sabrina or Carnival Row and this PJ does not do well at all. Obviously, the new firmware is looking to address precisely this, so I will leave that there
* The OOTB colours are quite a long way off. Like, I'm an amateur/enthusiast with an amateur's eye and yet I can see how far off it is

Other than that, looking forward to the weekend. The Mrs and I are going to watch the Hobbit trilogy in 3D – she hasn't seen it. So a bit of a marathon. I've no doubt this will be my projector for the next five years or so. Roll on the firmware!
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post #4995 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
I’m hoping but I won’t hold my breath. Who knows maybe next year. Maybe will should ask to Sony to work with Madvr or even lumagen for there DTM. Now I’m dreaming


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I said I was remaining hopeful. Sony, after all, have the resources and nous to get it done.

What you just proposed however, is probably utter fantasy! LOL.

Mind you …. Headline: 'Sony buys MadVR'…. cool!
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post #4996 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
If you haven't fixed gamma yet from OOTB you are missing what the unit can do, especially at the bottom and lower mid tones. Until we see what the new f/w does we won't know but it is highly likely it will still not be close to JVC. Hopefully they have tweaked from what they initially rolled out in the 995; probably not. Even then once you get just north of that the unit excels.

709 color is usually pretty good OOTB but can be made closer with tweaking and perfect with a processor. 2020 is another can of worms altogether.
Yeah, I have a really good calibrator booked for after the firmware – weekend of Oct 6th. I'm sure I don't have optimal settings properly dialed in yet, but as I say, near-universally dark scenes with one of two bright points of light (pretty much every scene in Carnival Row) look bad right now.

VISION: Sony VPL-VW760ES, 133" 1.9:1 screen | AMPLIFICATION: Denon AVC-X8500H, 7.5.6; two subs, plus Earthquake XJ-300ST and 3xADS Maximus Shakers | DEVICES: Oppo 203 UHD BD player, Apple TV 4K, Gaming PC w/i7700k CPU, NVIDIA RTX 2080ti | SPEAKERS: 6xSVS Prime Bookshelf, 2xSVS PB-2000 subs, SVS Prime Centre, 6xSVS Prime Elevation

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post #4997 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 05:02 AM
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Make sure your guy shows you the before and after for 2.2 and 2.4 and I think you will be shocked just how bad OOTB is and you will smile when it is fixed. Keep in mind that drift will happen and if you muck around with changing brightness and contrast gamma will not carry very well to those new levels from what he did. If he doesn't have familiarity with this unit....The controls are somewhat interactive and sensitive to whether you do high to low or low to high; I find mixing the patches in terms of brightness gets a better gamma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Howdle View Post
Yeah, I have a really good calibrator booked for after the firmware – weekend of Oct 6th. I'm sure I don't have setting properly dialed in yet, but as I say, near-universally dark scenes with one of two bright points of light (pretty much every scene in Carnival Row) look bad right now.
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What's OOTB?

Are you guys all trying to be millennials?
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post #4999 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 05:19 AM
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What's OOTB?

Are you guys all trying to be millennials?
Out of the box!
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post #5000 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 05:25 AM
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Yes, I can't imagine them bringing DTM to the current units. Activating the iris and DFO in this unit probably was the result of more marketing meetings all the way to the top than they have had in years.
I can picture that!
However, with JVC bringing such a 'show stopping' feature to the firmware upgrade party, I think those meetings would have been fairly swift!

Sony asking people to stump up for DTM, when JVC have managed to get it working gratis, well that is something that may backfire, unless it is a spectacularly good implementation of course.

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post #5001 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 05:26 AM
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What's OOTB?

Are you guys all trying to be millennials?
Generation X-Force here my friend, and proud of it!

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post #5002 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 05:28 AM
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Make sure your guy shows you the before and after for 2.2 and 2.4 and I think you will be shocked just how bad OOTB is and you will smile when it is fixed. Keep in mind that drift will happen and if you muck around with changing brightness and contrast gamma will not carry very well to those new levels from what he did. If he doesn't have familiarity with this unit....The controls are somewhat interactive and sensitive to whether you do high to low or low to high; I find mixing the patches in terms of brightness gets a better gamma.
That alone lends itself to the fact that I think Sony EXPECTS units like this to be professionally calibrated.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #5003 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 05:30 AM
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Generation X-Force here my friend, and proud of it!
Gen-X you mean? Me too...
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post #5004 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 05:46 AM
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Gen-X you mean? Me too...
Well, I like my version better, but yes.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #5005 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 06:06 AM
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Well, I like my version better, but yes.
Just verifying..hehe

We all got the X-gene... the best superheroes of any timeline...
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post #5006 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 06:14 AM
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Just verifying..hehe

We all got the X-gene... the best superheroes of any timeline...
Let's be honest, Millennials shouldn't be able to afford this. Too busy buying avacados and such (joke)
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VISION: Sony VPL-VW760ES, 133" 1.9:1 screen | AMPLIFICATION: Denon AVC-X8500H, 7.5.6; two subs, plus Earthquake XJ-300ST and 3xADS Maximus Shakers | DEVICES: Oppo 203 UHD BD player, Apple TV 4K, Gaming PC w/i7700k CPU, NVIDIA RTX 2080ti | SPEAKERS: 6xSVS Prime Bookshelf, 2xSVS PB-2000 subs, SVS Prime Centre, 6xSVS Prime Elevation

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post #5007 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 08:21 AM
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Let's be honest, Millennials shouldn't be able to afford this. Too busy buying avacados and such (joke)
Most are getting triggered over the color of avocados...
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post #5008 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 08:48 AM
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Here's something: Does anyone here us the 'Clear White' control on their 760/885? I tried it at high this morning on some HDR material (Star Trek Discovery on Netflix), and flicked between on and off – and I like it. It gives white elements in the picture more punch and so subtly increases perceived contrast to my eye. What are your thoughts, all?

Edit: I changed my mind. Makes skin tones look weird.
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VISION: Sony VPL-VW760ES, 133" 1.9:1 screen | AMPLIFICATION: Denon AVC-X8500H, 7.5.6; two subs, plus Earthquake XJ-300ST and 3xADS Maximus Shakers | DEVICES: Oppo 203 UHD BD player, Apple TV 4K, Gaming PC w/i7700k CPU, NVIDIA RTX 2080ti | SPEAKERS: 6xSVS Prime Bookshelf, 2xSVS PB-2000 subs, SVS Prime Centre, 6xSVS Prime Elevation

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post #5009 of 5640 Old 09-20-2019, 06:29 PM
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Mind you …. Headline: 'Sony buys MadVR'…. cool!

That will make my day



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post #5010 of 5640 Old 09-21-2019, 01:07 PM
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I heard rumors that the new firmware will enable proper laser dimming for those smokey black scenes. Has this been officially confirmed?
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