Official Sony VW885ES / VW760ES Owner's Thread - Page 39 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1141 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I was referring to the Oblivion interrogation scene, not The Revenant, plus I don't have to the UHD version anyway. I think if you want to see how a particular scene should look, just turn off the dynamic laser option so you can see what it should look like natively.

With the oblivion scene, Cruise's face initially looks like the contrast is turned up too high, and is then adjusted back down as the dynamic contrast (laser/iris) catches up. The Sony did a better job with no visible compensation when compared in split screen with the Epson and JVC, but that could be because it has a smaller multiplier compared to the others, so the margin for error is smaller perhaps, I don't really know.



It was done at my dealers with all projectors being compared in split screen configuration (swapping between any combination of the pjs being demo'd) so it was very easy to see the differences in things like contrast and dynamic contrast ability, and not that difficult to remember which was better.
OK, so it's cruises face not Morgan Freeman sitting in the dark at the start , that is where I thought the reference was , then he lights a cigar . In fact what you are referring to is the next sequence where Jack ( Tom Cruise) is sitting in the chair . Actually time stamps would help as well . I have both the 4K and 1080 versions, will look at both see how they actually stack up .

You are saying the VW760 did this scene OK then without the visible pumping/adjusttment , that in fact all the projectors rendered a little different each time ? I'll check mine tonight see what it does. Going to have a look at the scene from the Revanent too , I have the 4K and 2K versions .

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post #1142 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Wookii in fact did see this same time as Bandyka , he bought one , as he said, " I liked it so much, I bought it."
You've quoted that a couple of times now Roxie, so I feel compelled to add some context. Yes, Bandyka and I did view both projectors at the same time, and we both came to largely the same conclusion that the Z1 offered a lower black floor.

Because I bought the projector and Bandyka did not does not mean one of us was right, and the other wrong, it simply means that we both weighted the various aspects of image quality differently. I'd personally come to the end of the line with e-shift projectors, and wanted in on the native 4K and laser party, so I was willing to accept (and work with) the lower black floor and contrast performance. Bandyka weighted black floor and contrast performance slightly higher than me, which determined his buying decision.

None of those factors though detract from the fact that the black floor and contrast performance on this projector are a lot less than ideal, it doesn't do anyone any favours to try and gloss over that fact, least of all us owners. However I'm personally willing to live with that deficit for a few years (I rarely own a projector for more than 3 years) given a) the price point, and b) the other aspects of image quality and operational improvements over my RS600.

The film I watched last night was a perfect example of both the strengths and deficits of this projector. I watched a Cure For Wellness (a good film, despite its slightly OTT ending) - yet another blu-ray that the 760 rendered with superb apparent resolution and fine detail; it rivalled some 4K discs. However when it got to the end sequence in the caves/catacombs there were some extended very low APL scenes with almost no bright elements, and they looked very washed out and disappointing.

It would be nice to think that Sony might improve the dynamic dimming - that would very much help the issue in scenes such as the one above - but given the reports that the dynamic dimming is not significantly different on the 5000ES, I'm not holding out much hope.
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post #1143 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Peak View Post
This is my situation in a nutshell! But I went bigscreen years ago. In reality I have run with underdimensioned projectors on my 142" 1.0 gain screen with a roughly 16-17 feet throw, and only caught up on SDR with the 760ES! Calculator gives me around 19 fL with laser set to about 80. Now it's the hunt for better HDR, but I would not want to downgrade screen for more fL, because size is absolutely also a part of the overall experience! But I certainly do not need an iris to dim down.
Shows how much brighter this projector really is , my VW675 and RS600 would not have the lumens to do even SDR on a screen that size . In order to make HDR work even on my 133" 1.6 gain screen with the RS600 and VW675 I had to add
the anamorphic lens , even then without the Lumagen HDR tone mapping it was not best, the Lumagen put HDR at a different level immediately .

If I do 140" I will probably go ST130 or similar as a compromise , add the anamorphic lens and that will give ample of headroom. I could do this with 1.0 gain but prefer to maintain the headroom . I generally seem to find 20fl comfortable
for my viewing preference, exactly why I had to remove the anamorphic lens and move the projector back 4feet to make it acceptable on the 133" 1.6 gain scope screen I have now . With the adjustments I have made already from the first OOTB experience
there is a huge improvement . As you said no iris necessary, I don't expect a functioning iris anyway , updates as they happen will be welcome to fix the obvious issues at hand.

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post #1144 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
OK, so it's cruises face not Morgan Freeman sitting in the dark at the start , that is where I thought the reference was , then he lights a cigar . In fact what you are referring to is the next sequence where Jack ( Tom Cruise) is sitting in the chair . Actually time stamps would help as well . I have both the 4K and 1080 versions, will look at both see how they actually stack up .

You are saying the VW760 did this scene OK then without the visible pumping/adjusttment , that in fact all the projectors rendered a little different each time ? I'll check mine tonight see what it does. Going to have a look at the scene from the Revanent too , I have the 4K and 2K versions .
The scene in Oblivion is almost a torture test for dynamic systems. As it bounces between MF in the dark and Tom Cruise in the light, it is a big change in average picture level. Some dynamic systems will show some clipping for the briefest of moments when it flashes to Tom Cruise in the chair. Some are not sensitive to it and it goes unnoticed. Since the 885ES does not appear to be doing ANY gamma manipulation with its laser dimming (which is why it is ineffective at helping actual contrast other than full black) there are absolutely no artifacts with this scene. But by the same token it doesn't help when the camera is panned on MF, giving a higher black level due to the lower native contrast.

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post #1145 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Actually, it shouldn't increase contrast, but as I understand it should at least keep contrast stable.

The problem is that the laser light engine isn't lowering the black floor when you decrease the laser level. Meaning you're reducing contrast because your bottom range stays while you're shaving your top range off. With a filter, you shave the top and bottom, meaning your contrast value stays equal.
Nice and clearly put.

Just speculating here, but could it be that the lens puts a limit on the available contrast? (Despite having high resolution, as it's possible for lenses, depending on e.g. their coatings, or composition and number of elements, to be able to resolve high-contrast details while exhibiting overall contrast reduction - e.g. through so-called "veiling glare".)

I would expect such an effect (if any) to be most pronounced with higher lamp powers that flood the lens and its elements with the most light, but maybe there's some threshold effect involved. Anyway if the lens really were the issue, then stopping it down via the iris should help.
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post #1146 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
You've quoted that a couple of times now Roxie, so I feel compelled to add some context. Yes, Bandyka and I did view both projectors at the same time, and we both came to largely the same conclusion that the Z1 offered a lower black floor.

Because I bought the projector and Bandyka did not does not mean one of us was right, and the other wrong, it simply means that we both weighted the various aspects of image quality differently. I'd personally come to the end of the line with e-shift projectors, and wanted in on the native 4K and laser party, so I was willing to accept (and work with) the lower black floor and contrast performance. Bandyka weighted black floor and contrast performance slightly higher than me, which determined his buying decision.

None of those factors though detract from the fact that the black floor and contrast performance on this projector are a lot less than ideal, it doesn't do anyone any favours to try and gloss over that fact, least of all us owners. However I'm personally willing to live with that deficit for a few years (I rarely own a projector for more than 3 years) given a) the price point, and b) the other aspects of image quality and operational improvements over my RS600.

The film I watched last night was a perfect example of both the strengths and deficits of this projector. I watched a Cure For Wellness (a good film, despite its slightly OTT ending) - yet another blu-ray that the 760 rendered with superb apparent resolution and fine detail; it rivalled some 4K discs. However when it got to the end sequence in the caves/catacombs there were some extended very low APL scenes with almost no bright elements, and they looked very washed out and disappointing.

It would be nice to think that Sony might improve the dynamic dimming - that would very much help the issue in scenes such as the one above - but given the reports that the dynamic dimming is not significantly different on the 5000ES, I'm not holding out much hope.
I'm really not sure you are saying anything different, in fact what your are saying actually supports what I have said. I never suggested or indicated someone was right or wrong, just pointed out you both saw this and ytou did in
fact purchase after seeing both a/b same time . There is more to the image than contrast , you simply confirmed that. That said , I do feel your screen choice is not ideal for this projector and it for this reason you have to consider
a secondary alternative, the ND the filter. I have a similar issue with a higher gain screen I made adjustments to throw and removed the anamorphic lens , it made a substantial difference.

In the past it was quite the opposite with any projector I owned in that contrast decreased with brightness , contrast increased with a longer throw. I had to make a choice then as to best contrast or best brightness, there was always a
compromise , most chose larger screen, shorter throw and less contrast . JVC in the early days did not have the brightness to compete with Sony but they did have a contrast advantage, people simply bought what suited their preference
and needs. To me nothing has changed , in fact the VW885 actually is better in that you get both the maximum brightness and most contrast , wasn't that always the goal ? For the VW885 all you have to do is choose a larger screen
to compliment it's strengths . Running the VW885 on a small screen or high gain material and expecting it to perform best is not realistic. If I moved my RS600 or the VW675 back to where my VW885 is now at 19feet without
a anamorphic lens I would indeed have best contrast but a very dim image. We didn't expect the projector then to compensate for this, why should we expect the VW885 to operate best out of the ideal range it was obviously designed for ?
Wouldn't' it be better just to buy a VW675, the VW385 or VW285, on a smaller screen they would likely perform better anyway.

That said I'm curious to try a filter, it may be a good alternative for me down the road as opposed to a dual screen that I originally considered . The idea of a filter to improve contrast for SDR on a higher gain screen is a perfect compromise
to a second screen that I had already considered . This is what networking is actually supposed to be about, the discussion has given me some ideas to process before moving into my new theater. I want a dual masking screen that becomes
a difficult consideration with two screens, a high quality filter may be the best and by far the cheapest solution yet.

I'm not glossing over anything , I'm seeing the same contrast anomaly issues as others but at the same time I am also seeing the tremendous strengths. The sharpness of the image, the color , motion , the brightness, low noise and compact
size , depending on where you live , for others the price all factor in beyond the one discussion now . This image this projector throws just makes some of the other areas less significant, overall what it does is better than what I have seen
from the other projectors, contrast needs to be addressed no doubt about it. It happened with EVERY other projector so far, it will improve with this one .
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post #1147 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 07:58 AM
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Wanted to share some experience I had last night with the 885ES. As some have already noted, the default HDR performance isn't quite stellar. Acceptable, but better results can be achieved by loading in a new curve via Arve or using something like the Lumagen Pro's Intensity mapping. But some are intimidated by the Arve tools and the Lumagen is pretty expensive. Last night I got the chance to play with the latest (non public) beta firmware for the Oppo UHD players. Oppo has been working on an updated tone mapping capabilities that I find very similar to Lumagen's intensity mapping. In the HDR menu you would select HDR OFF but retain 2020 color. With your projector calibrated to a 2.4 gamma the Oppo would then do the tone map for you. You can select what peak brightness you are going for (similar to the Lumagen) and then Oppo provides four options for how they do the tone map and what each emphasizes (highlights, shadow details, both, upper end preservation). It works REALLY well compared to the projectors HDR and solves a lot of the issues I hear people complain about when it comes to HDR playback on a projector (dimmer image, lack of shadow detail, etc). So those with an Oppo should keep an eye out for this feature. I'm sure it will hit public beta soon and then eventual normal release as well. This HDR mapping and the update they did earlier that gave lots of options for those with scope screen setups have really added a TON of value for their players.

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post #1148 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
You've quoted that a couple of times now Roxie, so I feel compelled to add some context. Yes, Bandyka and I did view both projectors at the same time, and we both came to largely the same conclusion that the Z1 offered a lower black floor.

Because I bought the projector and Bandyka did not does not mean one of us was right, and the other wrong, it simply means that we both weighted the various aspects of image quality differently. I'd personally come to the end of the line with e-shift projectors, and wanted in on the native 4K and laser party, so I was willing to accept (and work with) the lower black floor and contrast performance. Bandyka weighted black floor and contrast performance slightly higher than me, which determined his buying decision.

None of those factors though detract from the fact that the black floor and contrast performance on this projector are a lot less than ideal, it doesn't do anyone any favours to try and gloss over that fact, least of all us owners. However I'm personally willing to live with that deficit for a few years (I rarely own a projector for more than 3 years) given a) the price point, and b) the other aspects of image quality and operational improvements over my RS600.

The film I watched last night was a perfect example of both the strengths and deficits of this projector. I watched a Cure For Wellness (a good film, despite its slightly OTT ending) - yet another blu-ray that the 760 rendered with superb apparent resolution and fine detail; it rivalled some 4K discs. However when it got to the end sequence in the caves/catacombs there were some extended very low APL scenes with almost no bright elements, and they looked very washed out and disappointing.

It would be nice to think that Sony might improve the dynamic dimming - that would very much help the issue in scenes such as the one above - but given the reports that the dynamic dimming is not significantly different on the 5000ES, I'm not holding out much hope.
Well said, that is an open mind and honest feedback. I could have picked one up but given if I am not entirely happy with a PJ I usually move on in a very short time so this would have been an expensive trial run. I figured I wait another cycle and hope for the best. I still envy you though that you can watch native 4K and stunning HDR but I am not exactly watching a Benq either .
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post #1149 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
In the past it was quite the opposite with any projector I owned in that contrast decreased with brightness , contrast increased with a longer throw. I had to make a choice then as to best contrast or best brightness, there was always a
compromise , most chose larger screen, shorter throw and less contrast . JVC in the early days did not have the brightness to compete with Sony but they did have a contrast advantage, people simply bought what suited their preference
and needs. To me nothing has changed , in fact the VW885 actually is better in that you get both the maximum brightness and most contrast , wasn't that always the goal ? For the VW885 all you have to do is choose a larger screen
to compliment it's strengths . Running the VW885 on a small screen or high gain material and expecting it to perform best is not realistic. If I moved my RS600 or the VW675 back to where my VW885 is now at 19feet without
a anamorphic lens I would indeed have best contrast but a very dim image. We didn't expect the projector then to compensate for this, why should we expect the VW885 to operate best out of the ideal range it was obviously designed for ?
Wouldn't' it be better just to buy a VW675, the VW385 or VW285, on a smaller screen they would likely perform better anyway.

That said I'm curious to try a filter, it may be a good alternative for me down the road as opposed to a dual screen that I originally considered . The idea of a filter to improve contrast for SDR on a higher gain screen is a perfect compromise
to a second screen that I had already considered . This is what networking is actually supposed to be about, the discussion has given me some ideas to process before moving into my new theater. I want a dual masking screen that becomes
a difficult consideration with two screens, a high quality filter may be the best and by far the cheapest solution yet.

I'm not glossing over anything , I'm seeing the same contrast anomaly issues as others but at the same time I am also seeing the tremendous strengths. The sharpness of the image, the color , motion , the brightness, low noise and compact
size , depending on where you live , for others the price all factor in beyond the one discussion now . This image this projector throws just makes some of the other areas less significant, overall what it does is better than what I have seen
from the other projectors, contrast needs to be addressed no doubt about it. It happened with EVERY other projector so far, it will improve with this one .

Off the mark a bit here. You shouldn't have to buy a screen to work around the compromises of the projector. Achieving the peak contrast ratio of this projector at its highest brightness isn't that hard in the projection world today. Most projectors over $5K can easily reach 15K:1, though only so many can go as bright as this projector. The problem with the design is that for a lot of people this projector provides more light than they need, so rather than being able to take advantage of it with a manual iris, Sony left nothing to help other than dimming the image. A few years ago JVC debuted a new bulb with their line that nearly doubled the light output. JVC owners were ecstatic because it allowed them to be more aggressive with their manual iris and achieve the same light output they had before thereby giving them even more overall contrast. But with this design the only thing the added light gives (if you don't need it) is compromise.


An ND filter will NOT help contrast. If anything it would hurt it due to reflection back into the lens. The only thing an ND filter can do is drop the overall level of light, but it does it on both ends so you get a lower black floor at the same time. So black will get better, but overall contrast will stay the same. Depending on the color shift of the filter, you could lose contrast still depending on what would need to be adjusted as far as RGB trims. If you end up having to drop green to compensate for any deficiencies, you'll lose even more of your upper end. This is what I was talking about earlier when I said that you have to be careful when calibrating this projector or you could lose contrast from the adjustments.
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post #1150 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
. . . That said , I do feel your screen choice is not ideal for this projector and it for this reason you have to consider a secondary alternative, the ND the filter. . . . Running the VW885 on a small screen or high gain material and expecting it to perform best is not realistic.
I'd have to disagree on that, I think a high gain screen combined with the ND filter makes the most of this projector; it enables me to get the same or lower black floor than I would achieve on a unity gain screen and slightly more on/off contrast, whilst also getting a significantly brighter image for HDR. If I switched to a unity gain screen I'd be at close to 30FtL for HDR, which for me is going too low, I'd rather to keep it at 64FtL.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer to have a unity gain screen, and having read all the positive reports on the ST100, I'd love to have that material up instead, but until these projectors get up to around 3500 lumens calibrated and 50,000+:1 on/off contrast (even if that's just dynamically) I'm not going to make that move.

I'd also prefer not to have to mess around with the ND filter, and if the iris had been working I possibly wouldn't have had to, but then I've never owned a projector that didn't require some work arounds in order to optimise it.
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post #1151 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:13 AM
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Nice and clearly put.

Just speculating here, but could it be that the lens puts a limit on the available contrast? (Despite having high resolution, as it's possible for lenses, depending on e.g. their coatings, or composition and number of elements, to be able to resolve high-contrast details while exhibiting overall contrast reduction - e.g. through so-called "veiling glare".)

I would expect such an effect (if any) to be most pronounced with higher lamp powers that flood the lens and its elements with the most light, but maybe there's some threshold effect involved. Anyway if the lens really were the issue, then stopping it down via the iris should help.
The lens isn't the limiting factor, it is the native contrast of the SXRD chip. It is in line with all the previous SXRD chips as far as native contrast, but those all had both manual and dynamic apertures. This does not. So no way to increase contrast if you have a surplus of light and no benefit of the dynamic system other than pure black. I have almost no doubt in my mind that unless you need the extra lumens this projector affords that a 385ES would provide more overall contrast than the 885ES on a lot of screens. Other than maxed out with no aperture used, you would be gaining contrast if you had any overhead at all and the dynamic iris system would give you more contrast through the range (other than full black) than the 885ES would. This already bears out looking at the numbers projectiondream.com gave with the 500ES when they measured the different ADL's that I did earlier with the 885ES and you compare them directly.
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post #1152 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:15 AM
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I'd have to disagree on that, I think a high gain screen combined with the ND filter makes the most of this projector; it enables me to get the same or lower black floor than I would achieve on a unity gain screen and slightly more on/off contrast, whilst also getting a significantly brighter image for HDR. If I switched to a unity gain screen I'd be at close to 30FtL for HDR, which for me is going too low, I'd rather to keep it at 64FtL.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer to have a unity gain screen, and having read all the positive reports on the ST100, I'd love to have that material up instead, but until these projectors get up to around 3500 lumens calibrated and 50,000+:1 on/off contrast (even if that's just dynamically) I'm not going to make that move.

I'd also prefer not to have to mess around with the ND filter, and if the iris had been working I possibly wouldn't have had to, but then I've never owned a projector that didn't require some work arounds in order to optimise it.
Agree, you're in the PERFECT position to have a projector that has this kind of brightness but with a manual aperture. You'd be able to maximize contrast and still have a LOT of light to work with. The fact that some don't understand this is a perfect example of NOT understanding the compromises of the design. Would be a HUGE benefit for you if Sony actually enables the iris on this one.

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post #1153 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:21 AM
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An ND filter will NOT help contrast. If anything it would hurt it due to reflection back into the lens.
Agreed, I went for a large filter purposely so it can be angled at 45 degree in front of the lens. I was quite surprised with how much light gets reflected back!

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The only thing an ND filter can do is drop the overall level of light, but it does it on both ends so you get a lower black floor at the same time. So black will get better, but overall contrast will stay the same.
That was the main reason for using one, plus a slight added benefit is that the contrast ratio is slightly higher at the top end of the laser range than the bottom.

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Depending on the color shift of the filter, you could lose contrast still depending on what would need to be adjusted as far as RGB trims. If you end up having to drop green to compensate for any deficiencies, you'll lose even more of your upper end. This is what I was talking about earlier when I said that you have to be careful when calibrating this projector or you could lose contrast from the adjustments.
This is not an issue with the higher quality filters from Formatt and Lee that I mentioned previously, they do not cause a colour shift.

All that said though, this is a band aid for a lack of an iris, but I guess it's no different to using an A lens to maximise peak luminance, or a HD Fury to bypass HDR gamma defaults, both of which I've had to do in the past.
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post #1154 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:30 AM
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The lens isn't the limiting factor...
Thanks, that was enlightening (no pun intended).
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post #1155 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:32 AM
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I'd have to disagree on that, I think a high gain screen combined with the ND filter makes the most of this projector; it enables me to get the same or lower black floor than I would achieve on a unity gain screen and slightly more on/off contrast, whilst also getting a significantly brighter image for HDR. If I switched to a unity gain screen I'd be at close to 30FtL for HDR, which for me is going too low, I'd rather to keep it at 64FtL.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer to have a unity gain screen, and having read all the positive reports on the ST100, I'd love to have that material up instead, but until these projectors get up to around 3500 lumens calibrated and 50,000+:1 on/off contrast (even if that's just dynamically) I'm not going to make that move.

I'd also prefer not to have to mess around with the ND filter, and if the iris had been working I possibly wouldn't have had to, but then I've never owned a projector that didn't require some work arounds in order to optimise it.
Actually , you are correct in that light , for HDR the 2.5HP makes sense with filter for SDR. What I meant is without some adjustments your screen not the ideal combo for SDR as the laser will be turned so low, will drop the contrast accordingly. In fact what you are doing makes a lot of sense, I just didn't want the average unsuspecting person to think a filter is needed for a non high gain screen application .

I think the filter is going to be a terrific alternative for my solution as well , instead of a dual screen option, which, now that I have considered is a much
easier, cheaper and likely better compromise. Filters are actually cheap, compared to screens that can be a major investment. Really appreciate this option,
prior to this thread I never gave this any thought .
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post #1156 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 08:46 AM
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[QUOTE=Kris Deering;55462490]Off the mark a bit here. You shouldn't have to buy a screen to work around the compromises of the projector. Achieving the peak contrast ratio of this projector at its highest brightness isn't that hard in the projection world today. Most projectors over $5K can easily reach 15K:1, though only so many can go as bright as this projector. The problem with the design is that for a lot of people this projector provides more light than they need, so rather than being able to take advantage of it with a manual iris, Sony left nothing to help other than dimming the image. A few years ago JVC debuted a new bulb with their line that nearly doubled the light output. JVC owners were ecstatic because it allowed them to be more aggressive with their manual iris and achieve the same light output they had before thereby giving them even more overall contrast. But with this design the only thing the added light gives (if you don't need it) is compromise.



Actually ,I totally disagree. I wouldn't buy a panel van to drive to work alone and then expect it to yield the same efficiency as a compact car. Product are made to work in a given range, outside that range there will be compromises . Any salesmen that recommends a panel van to their customer when a econobox is a perfect fit, cheaper, and absolutely more efficient is doing the customer a disservice . Expecting the panel van to operate efficiently is unrealistic .

The compromise you refer to sounds like every new design coming . The focus is on increased detail it would seem , and all manufacturers are headed in the same direction. Sharpness, detail , motion and color are improving, native contrast is not the priority any longer, I wonder why ?

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[quote=roxiedog13;55462810]
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Off the mark a bit here. You shouldn't have to buy a screen to work around the compromises of the projector. Achieving the peak contrast ratio of this projector at its highest brightness isn't that hard in the projection world today. Most projectors over $5K can easily reach 15K:1, though only so many can go as bright as this projector. The problem with the design is that for a lot of people this projector provides more light than they need, so rather than being able to take advantage of it with a manual iris, Sony left nothing to help other than dimming the image. A few years ago JVC debuted a new bulb with their line that nearly doubled the light output. JVC owners were ecstatic because it allowed them to be more aggressive with their manual iris and achieve the same light output they had before thereby giving them even more overall contrast. But with this design the only thing the added light gives (if you don't need it) is compromise.



Actually ,I totally disagree. I wouldn't buy a panel van to drive to work alone and then expect it to yield the same efficiency as a compact car. Product are made to work in a given range, outside that range there will be compromises . Any salesmen that recommends a panel van to their customer when a econobox is a perfect fit, cheaper, and absolutely more efficient is doing the customer a disservice . Expecting the panel van to operate efficiently is unrealistic .

The compromise you refer to sounds like every new design coming . The focus is on increased detail it would seem , and all manufacturers are headed in the same direction. Sharpness, detail , motion and color are improving, native contrast is not the priority any longer, I wonder why ?
We'll agree to disagree than. I think your whole statement is a testament to your lack of understanding image science, which you've shown again and again and again. But by all means, enjoy.

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[quote=Kris Deering;55462832]
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We'll agree to disagree than. I think your whole statement is a testament to your lack of understanding image science, which you've shown again and again and again. But by all means, enjoy.
I will enjoy and so will thousands of other very happy individuals, isn't that what it's all about.

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[quote=roxiedog13;55462810]
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Off the mark a bit here. You shouldn't have to buy a screen to work around the compromises of the projector. Achieving the peak contrast ratio of this projector at its highest brightness isn't that hard in the projection world today. Most projectors over $5K can easily reach 15K:1, though only so many can go as bright as this projector. The problem with the design is that for a lot of people this projector provides more light than they need, so rather than being able to take advantage of it with a manual iris, Sony left nothing to help other than dimming the image. A few years ago JVC debuted a new bulb with their line that nearly doubled the light output. JVC owners were ecstatic because it allowed them to be more aggressive with their manual iris and achieve the same light output they had before thereby giving them even more overall contrast. But with this design the only thing the added light gives (if you don't need it) is compromise.



Actually ,I totally disagree. I wouldn't buy a panel van to drive to work alone and then expect it to yield the same efficiency as a compact car. Product are made to work in a given range, outside that range there will be compromises . Any salesmen that recommends a panel van to their customer when a econobox is a perfect fit, cheaper, and absolutely more efficient is doing the customer a disservice . Expecting the panel van to operate efficiently is unrealistic .

The compromise you refer to sounds like every new design coming . The focus is on increased detail it would seem , and all manufacturers are headed in the same direction. Sharpness, detail , motion and color are improving, native contrast is not the priority any longer, I wonder why ?[/U][/I][/B]
This is the furthest from the truth. It is however the largest obstacle w/ front projection that is proven even more difficult as you increase brightness.

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[quote=baseball0618;55463166]
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This is the furthest from the truth. It is however the largest obstacle w/ front projection that is proven even more difficult as you increase brightness.
Well then, I think we have agreed on something . Since the brightest image on the Sony VW885 produces the most contrast you acknowledge this is in fact the most desired outcome . Like I said
they did it right .

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[quote=roxiedog13;55463396]
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Well then, I think we have agreed on something . Since the brightest image on the Sony VW885 produces the most contrast you acknowledge this is in fact the most desired outcome . Like I said
they did it right .
You sir are an enigma! No you implied that contrast isn't a priority any longer for manufacturers and I said you are unequivocally wrong!
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post #1162 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 10:08 AM
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[quote=roxiedog13;55463396]
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Well then, I think we have agreed on something . Since the brightest image on the Sony VW885 produces the most contrast you acknowledge this is in fact the most desired outcome . Like I said
they did it right .
No, they didn't. Native contrast on a projector stays the same across the range. This projector does not. And it doesn't have the benefit of increasing contrast if you don't want to run it full bore like the rest of the Sony/JVC models. So again, your utter lack of understanding how imaging systems works continues to show. If you understood it, you would be singing a different tune right now, especially if you are considering a ND filter. But please, continue to dig the hole.

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post #1163 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 10:16 AM
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Official Sony VW885ES / VW760ES Owner's Thread

@Kris Deering **Sorry for edits - wasn't posting correctly**

I am often in agreement with you on most things but I totally disagree with you on this position.

I swear this whole thread is like people are living in LaLaLand. I just can’t help but scratch my head at some of the things being said here.

You out of all people should understand that screen selection is just as important as projector selection. You wouldn’t pair a 5000ES with a 100” 2.4 gain screen and then say the projector is “defective” because it puts out too much light. That’s just nonsense. Nor is the RS4500 defective because it couldn’t even properly light up a 13’ wide negative gain AT screen.

Screen selection has ALWAYS been important and can absolutely effect the overall performance of the system. This will remain the case until we finally replace projectors with LED tiles or whatever else.

Personally I don’t know how anyone could watch a 2.4 gain screen. I guess it’s because they don’t know what a reference screen, like the ST100 looks like. The difference is night and day. I would not only consider that screen a compromise for SDR but I would also consider that screen a compromise with HDR, because of all the horrible side effects of a screen like that.

I get that many people are use to fairly dim units. Personally, I don’t understand how anyone can enjoy 14fL for SDR content. 20-25fL should be the absolute minimum target for Home Theater in my opinion. You are the one who pointed out we aren’t just trying to match the pitiful performance of “cinema projectors”

You have made multiple comments that 5000ES owner’s are either too lazy or incompetent to take detailed measurements on their projector. I don’t know why you keep repeating this. There has been plenty of measurements taken. I have taken plenty and I know Ken Whitcomb has as well, along with LJG (Lon Goldstein), and others.

Not only that, but when you said you couldn’t get a 5000ES for review, I personally offered to pay for one and have it shipped to you, so you could do a review on it. Unfortunately S&V declined the offer, and you didn’t have any interest in reviewing the unit independently at the time.

None of the 5000ES owners, at least the ones I know personally, are using dynamic dimming. They don’t want the side effects that come from gamma manipulations, light fluctuations, etc, that come from dynamic tricks. They all pretty much gained a 5x native Contrast Increase from 3-chip DLP, which was the only option prior, so we are satisfied with step up.

We would all welcome better units. We all want brighter and higher contrast units. We want closer to full rec2020. We want them cool and quiet. But we have to work with what we currently have available.

The JVC RS4500 had massive problems on release. It was one of the most disappointing units I had ever bought “Initially”. I was as loud as a 3-chip DLP, with a fraction of the light output. And for people who need a lot of light, the fact remains the native contrast of the JVC chips are 1/3 less than the native contrast of the Sony’s chip. Neither company has been able to make higher contrast native 4K chips.

The RS4500s “Dynamic Dimming” was completely unusable on initial release. It was always adjusting a frame or two to late or something and you would get a quick flash of light between scene changes or at the wrong time. Both units I had, have massive focus drift, and this still haven’t been resolved. I shouldn’t have to touch up the unit every couple days or each week. But the good news is things have improved. But there are still guys like Mark_H who still don’t use or like the dynamic manipulations of the image.

This is one reason I really like my RS600. I get a lot of native contrast and don’t have to use the dynamic iris. I can’t stand it on either of the JVC units, when things like Netflix menus are so dim, you can barely even see them and there is significant color shift. The Netflix white spinning wheel is suppose to be bright white and not a super dull/dim yellow.

Again, I don’t think the 885 is perfect. But I don’t think either of my 5000s are perfect. Nor do I think the RS4500 is perfect. But everyone who bought the 885 knew it didn’t have a manual or adjustable iris. And I still don’t believe one is ever coming to the 885.

I do fully believe they could work on the dynamic laser dimming and release future firmware updates. I wouldn’t solely base the “development” of this for the 885 off the 5000ES.

The 5000ES is built off a commercial chassis, and I don’t think there was ever a huge focus on this, as Sony is the only company to date to offer such high native contrast on such high brightness units. At least I don’t know of any other units that do 4000+ lumens at 15-17k:1 native Contrast.

I’m also not surprised to hear you went back to an E-shift JVC, as you were one of the few people who didn’t just say the RS4500 is perfect and the best at everything. You gave it both praise and critique. It also seemed like you were never completely happy with the step down in native contrast between the two units.

The 20% contrast loss between 0 power and 100 power on the 885 is just not that big of a deal, and not something anyone is going to notice. It would be nice if they could possibly dim the laser down “more” for those who have small high-gain screens, so they can target a lower fL if so desired.

But I think the best solution Sony can provide moving forward is giving some more “dimming range” on the laser, and then working on what is essentially a non-functioning dynamic dimming system. Both of these things could be addressed via firmware and I do believe Sony is likely to do so.

Last edited by ccool96; 01-09-2018 at 02:17 PM.
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post #1164 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 10:18 AM
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The fact that Sony didn't implement a manual iris on this unit is an epic fail IMO. Believe what you want but there is a reason that Sony did not enable the manual iris on this unit and in about 6 months time or whenever CEDIA is you will know why b/c the 1100ES big brother laser will be announced and it will have a manual iris aperture as well as upgraded optics and another 10-20k minimum price increase.
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post #1165 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 10:22 AM
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Wanted to share some experience I had last night with the 885ES. As some have already noted, the default HDR performance isn't quite stellar. Acceptable, but better results can be achieved by loading in a new curve via Arve or using something like the Lumagen Pro's Intensity mapping. But some are intimidated by the Arve tools and the Lumagen is pretty expensive. Last night I got the chance to play with the latest (non public) beta firmware for the Oppo UHD players. Oppo has been working on an updated tone mapping capabilities that I find very similar to Lumagen's intensity mapping. In the HDR menu you would select HDR OFF but retain 2020 color. With your projector calibrated to a 2.4 gamma the Oppo would then do the tone map for you. You can select what peak brightness you are going for (similar to the Lumagen) and then Oppo provides four options for how they do the tone map and what each emphasizes (highlights, shadow details, both, upper end preservation). It works REALLY well compared to the projectors HDR and solves a lot of the issues I hear people complain about when it comes to HDR playback on a projector (dimmer image, lack of shadow detail, etc). So those with an Oppo should keep an eye out for this feature. I'm sure it will hit public beta soon and then eventual normal release as well. This HDR mapping and the update they did earlier that gave lots of options for those with scope screen setups have really added a TON of value for their players.
Thanks for this info about the Oppo 203, sounds like a great feature but, I have issues with the scope screen feature. It doesn't appear to work correctly. It looks like it shifts the red pixels in one direction if that makes sense. Apparently you are not seeing this though, it is very obvious. Someone else noticed this as well and told Oppo about it. I wonder if it has something to do with the E-Shift machines. I know this is not the place to discuss though.
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post #1166 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 10:34 AM
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Actually ,I totally disagree. I wouldn't buy a panel van to drive to work alone and then expect it to yield the same efficiency as a compact car. Product are made to work in a given range, outside that range there will be compromises . Any salesmen that recommends a panel van to their customer when a econobox is a perfect fit, cheaper, and absolutely more efficient is doing the customer a disservice . Expecting the panel van to operate efficiently is unrealistic .

The compromise you refer to sounds like every new design coming . The focus is on increased detail it would seem , and all manufacturers are headed in the same direction. Sharpness, detail , motion and color are improving, native contrast is not the priority any longer, I wonder why ?
Are you honestly arguing that because of the type of projector this Sony is that they shouldn't have a menu item that allows the user to pick the position of the iris in the lens?

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post #1167 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 10:57 AM
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The fact that Sony didn't implement a manual iris on this unit is an epic fail IMO. Believe what you want but there is a reason that Sony did not enable the manual iris on this unit and in about 6 months time or whenever CEDIA is you will know why b/c the 1100ES big brother laser will be announced and it will have a manual iris aperture as well as upgraded optics and another 10-20k minimum price increase.
Speaking of epic fail , just popped into the RS4500 thread , I see you had to replace your RS4500 with issues , I believe you still have issues . When I fired up my VW885 last night to check a scene I didn't have to wait 40 minutes for the lens
focus to stabilize as I read in the RS4500 thread, nor do I see , the motion jutter I see going on in conversations . You see that's what owners threads are for , resolving issues the RS4500 has plenty of its own , apparently .

But you see, since I am not one to troll , I stay out of the day to day conversations in other threads for issues you have to deal with over there. I'm not that insecure but what I do have is a certain amount of respect obviously lacking here from the influx
of comments in the VW885 owners thread .

You think the lack of iris is an epic fail. Well , I'll just remind you that this epic fail has outsold anything in class by a massive margin . Maybe , just maybe, others in the world are onto something but by all means I'm sure you know best. Good luck with
that and good luck with your RS4500 , so far it seems luck is just not on your side .

And lastly for clarification I think contrast is very very important and it's a priority, but as I said 4K and detail of resolution appears to be the buzz for models this year . Saying I believe contrast not a priority in general is not what I intended but good on you for trying to twist my point .

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post #1168 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
Are you honestly arguing that because of the type of projector this Sony is that they shouldn't have a menu item that allows the user to pick the position of the iris in the lens?

--Darin
I made no reference to the iris , have no idea what you are talking about . Had nothing to do with my point . As an owner I would certainly not mind having the iris . The VW5000 doesn't have the iris nor
was it ever indicated it would be functional on the VW885 . The projector does an incredible job as , I'm being realistic and looking forward to firmware updates to improve , not a functioning iris . Like
others I see how well it does as is , look forward to improvements that will improve the laser dimming as did all other laser projectors.

Dedicated Theater: Sony VPL VW5000 , Panamorph DCR & ISCO III L Anamorphic Lens, Draper TecVision XT1800X Screen, 2.40:1 134" diagonal curved , Denon AVR-X8500 , 9.2.6 Atmos, Panasonic UB900, Oppo 203, Lumagen Pro 4440 , (3) Paradigm CI Elite E7-L+C+R fronts, , (2) CI Pro P80-IW Rear, (2) Paradigm SA-ADP In-wall Surround, (6) SIG-1.5R-30 v.3 In-Ceiling, Subwoofers: (2) SVS SB-16 Ultra , (1) SVS PC13-Ultra .
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post #1169 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 11:15 AM
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Kris-- Thanks for pointing this out/sharing. Since I have been wondering whether to buy a Lumagen or not your comments are very timely; I am certainly willing to wait and see what this feature brings. I also think this is an indication of a manufacturer that is really busting it to continuously improve their product in the middle of a life cycle and as a result keep/attract customers. After this much time with HDR in its products I don't think it would have been too hard for Sony to expose their HDR mapping, at least to some extent, to allow better tuning to match the user's environment. When I first heard Sony wasn't going to update Projector Calibration Pro I was dismayed. We should be thankful to Oppo, Zoyd, others and people like you for the efforts and the benefits we all get from the work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
So those with an Oppo should keep an eye out for this feature. I'm sure it will hit public beta soon and then eventual normal release as well. This HDR mapping and the update they did earlier that gave lots of options for those with scope screen setups have really added a TON of value for their players.
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post #1170 of 5512 Old 01-09-2018, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
You think the lack of iris is an epic fail. Well , I'll just remind you that this epic fail has outsold anything in class by a massive margin.
This might be the most ridiculous defense of a company not including a user option for something where the hardware support seems to already be in the product that I have ever seen.

Anybody except roxiedog (and maybe some people who work for Sony) think this is a good argument to make on the avscience forum to try to squash discussions about how the manufacturer should enable a feature that many users would find useful?

I know it is against the rules to actually get paid by a company to post and not admit it, but it never ceases to amaze me to see how many people will post pretty much what they would if they were getting paid to do so, even though they aren't getting a penny.

--Darin
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