Official Sony VW885ES / VW760ES Owner's Thread - Page 50 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 4534 Old 01-25-2018, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dmillionz View Post
My understanding is that 3D has it's own modes on the 885 and each of those modes can carry their own calibration values. 9 total for 3D. The same with HDR, 9 total (27 viewing modes total) Chad B calibrated my Bright Cinema as a Day viewing mode or a brighter version of Reference which is my Night viewing mode. Bright Cinema (3D) is my 3D mode and is only available when a 3D signal is received by the 885. So I use Bright Cinema for normal Daytime SDR viewing with perfect color, brightness, etc and Bright Cinema (3D) for 3D mode with perfect color, brightness, etc. Reference is calibrated to true reference and User is my 4K HDR mode. He also has enabled Input Lag Reduction for all calibrated modes which speeds Mode Switching/Handshaking up and even makes the image more crisp by disabling some of the additional image processing.
Yes, I understood there are modes for 3D... and that you can calibrate them..

My question was, should 3D be calibrated by putting the colorimeter thru the 3D glasses? Because it seems to me that the SOURCE material themselves are created with the 3D glasess in mind, with over saturated colors... and if you 'over saturate the colors' with the calibration thru the 3D glasses, then you get a double whammy...

If you get 2 copied of the same movie in 2D and 3D, you'll see what i mean by both having different colors...
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post #1472 of 4534 Old 01-25-2018, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Yes, I understood there are modes for 3D... and that you can calibrate them..

My question was, should 3D be calibrated by putting the colorimeter thru the 3D glasses? Because it seems to me that the SOURCE material themselves are created with the 3D glasess in mind, with over saturated colors... and if you 'over saturate the colors' with the calibration thru the 3D glasses, then you get a double whammy...

If you get 2 copied of the same movie in 2D and 3D, you'll see what i mean by both having different colors...
Ah I see. Well I can tell you this. I've sampled several 3D movies since the calibration and they all look outstanding. Colors, brightness, etc are perfect and look identical to the 2D versions. I'm not sure how he did it but he pulled it off. Best 3D I've ever seen. Has my wife wanting to watch 3D now and she couldn't stand wearing the glasses previously.

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post #1473 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
How much picture quality improvement does the Lumagen bring compared to the Sony's own settings? Is the Lumagen a set it and forget it or does getting the most out of it require tweaking with different sources or would the set (by pro calibration) and forget plan not be worth the investment of such a processor with the Sony vw885?
I think and have already written several times that Sonys HDR tone mapping is not very good. So it is quite easy to beat and improve that. Either by use of a Lumagen or by some Arve curves. This not different to any other projector: they all profit from a proper tone mapping and calibration adjusted to the individual setup (screen etc). The difference IMO (and I have seen most high end projectors in various setups) that the VW760 is already very impressive for most people when it is just installed without any tuning at all.

I read here a lot of comments and inputs from non-owners (unfortunatelly). As Roxy has written most of that information is unfortunatelly rather misleading and non informative. I agree on that statement. The reason for that is that in most cases there are typically no comparative data from other measurements provided. Remember those dB measurements letting people conclude that the VW760/885 is significantly loader than the other smaller 4K Sony or those contrast numbers of Kris Deering. No control measurements were provided from other projectors again for low % of ADL. The message people are led to conclude is that the VW760 provides milky blacks when feeding movie pictures with low % of ADL. How such data are properly done and presented is demonstrated by Anna & Flo (see http://projectiondream.com/en/category/general-en/ )

Coming back to the initial and cited question. I like very much the reports and comments of dmillionz. He had used the opportunity to engage Chad B. Reading this forum I understand that this guy seems to be a very experienced calibrator. I am not surprised that Chad B immediately used the Arve tool for Sony projectors. The reason for that I have written in my first sentence.

When this guy indicates something like "If the Lumagen provides a substantial improvement (I can't even imagine how) over what the 885 and he can deliver without it, it looks like he will be making a second trip here" then I take this as a very useful information. That comes from an experienced person who has seen and used the possible improvements by both options. Having said this: no method provides optimal results unless you know how to use it at its best.

Coming back to the VW760. A friend of mine has typically a lot of bad luck with projectors (with both Sony and JVC). He got his VW760 already swapped twice and is now with his third. Of course people in a German forum were asking him why he is still buying Sony (because he also reported lots of problems with a VW520 in the past). To me he said that he hates Sony but there is no good alternative for him when it comes to over all picture quality. In the forum he wrote:
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Ja, also ich kann euch sagen, wenn ich könnte, ich würde nach meinen Erfahrungen mit Sony sofort zu einer anderen Marke wechseln, ich habe zum Beispiel mit Panasonic immer sehr gute Erfahrungen gemacht. Aber....leider ist Sony mit seinen 4K Beamern ziemlich konkurrenzlos, also ich sehe weit und breit keine Alternative zum 760er. Nicht nur das native 4K, auch die superbe Bildaufbereitung von 1080P ist in meinen Augen konkurrenzlos.
Key message: he can not see any alternative to the VW760 for him on the market. The same applies to me having also owned other Sony and JVC in the past. This is actually the first projector that gives me the impression that the quality of material that I feed is limiting my cinematic experience rather than the projector itself. This does not mean that this projector is perfect but just how much I am pleased with the performance in my setup.
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Last edited by *Mori*; 01-26-2018 at 04:03 AM.
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post #1474 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dmillionz View Post
Ah I see. Well I can tell you this. I've sampled several 3D movies since the calibration and they all look outstanding. Colors, brightness, etc are perfect and look identical to the 2D versions. I'm not sure how he did it but he pulled it off. Best 3D I've ever seen. Has my wife wanting to watch 3D now and she couldn't stand wearing the glasses previously.
Ah ok cool... he prob knows about it already and enhanced it further... btw: I love 3D.. that's the deciding factor for me when purchasing a projector.. how well it does 3D.. and in this regard the JVCs fail miserably... (I am talking about their faux 4K machines)...
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post #1475 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
what other $25K projectors is the 885ES competing with, some 3-chip DLPs??
I was merely illustrating that cheaper projectors usually outsell more expensive ones for obvious reasons.

However, yes the 885 is competing in a different space to more affordable models and I agree it needs to be appraised in light of its peers, not more or less expensive models.

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post #1476 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
He got his VW760 already swapped twice and is now with his third.
Crikey! With such a backlog on new orders, how on earth has he managed to get through three already?

Is he the reason these are not in stock anywhere?

Using the right slant on the statistics, all these replacement units could be construed as sales......
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post #1477 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmillionz View Post
Let me know what @Chad B says about this. If the Lumagen provides a substantial improvement (I can't even imagine how) over what the 885 and he can deliver without it, it looks like he will be making a second trip here.

I'll keep you posted. But I strongly suspect from your observations post calibration that his position will be that the lumagen can provide an incremental improvement and not a 'wow' better.
I suspect while he was calibrating your projector he wasn't muttering to himself , boy, if I only had a Lumagen I could make this projector sing instead just hum
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post #1478 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Crikey! With such a backlog on new orders, how on earth has he managed to get through three already?

Is he the reason these are not in stock anywhere?

Using the right slant on the statistics, all these replacement units could be construed as sales......
This post reads very close to someone who used to post here before who is now stuck on the island of misfit toys forum.... Hmmmmm

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post #1479 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Crikey! With such a backlog on new orders, how on earth has he managed to get through three already?

Is he the reason these are not in stock anywhere?

Using the right slant on the statistics, all these replacement units could be construed as sales......
As far as I understand a replacement unit is here in Europe provided by Sony Prime support from the UK and their stocks. So despite of any backorders which might be open this is a different channel to maintain the service for broken units. I am pleased (and my friend as well) to note that Sony Prime Support indeed has some stocks reserved for existing customers. Sony Prime Support in Europe has been criticized quite a bit in the past (often well justified). In this case they did a fine job IMO.
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post #1480 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 05:28 AM
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As for sales.... There are exactly zero 285, 385 and 885s in stock. I am sure Mike and Craig both have access and can confirm. For actual numbers on the 885... They completely sold out their first batch. How many exactly I have asked and am waiting for that number. Early estimates say about 75 to 100. This is just US numbers. Either way I think with the popularity of the Sony models it is obvious people are wanting 4K more and more these days. With all the traffic in this Owner’s thread which is already on page 50 it is easy to say the 885 is a huge success. They are expecting a few in Feb. 3rd ish. And those that “know” get that Sony always keeps a few for emergency exchanges. I am sure someone will attempt to downplay the 885’s sales but honestly I don’t think the owners here care. I don’t think Sony or anyone expected it to take off like it has and they are thrilled!

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post #1481 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 05:59 AM
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Mori's comments make sense to me.

(If this is better handled in the Lumagen thread or elsewhere I am happy to do that.)

As I see it there are several choices for HDR on this pj (or, really, many other HDR pjs):

1) use the in-built curve(s),
2) use the limited capabilities in a BD player,
3) use the arve tool,
4) use something like HCFR's mapping to create a curve and then use Calibration Pro to reshape one of the in-built gamma curves, or
5) buy a Lumagen (which does its version of the arve or HCFR tools).

Given my screen ( ~1.0, 128" diagonal) I get about 95 nits max, black level 0.006 or so. My brain is telling me that an HDR curve is a curve is a curve so I must be missing something--

I have tried options 1 and 2, not for me; I wanted better so I built two curves (1k & 4k) using HCFR and they look pretty good. I use the metadata spreadsheet and @Javs work to pick one of those curves when I watch. Later, I would happily try the Oppo capability once it gets released.

I am willing to buy a Lumagen BUT, how might I get a better understanding of how the arve tool differs from HCFR differs from the Lumagen? What does the Lumagen do so much better than what the arve or HCFR tools do as well? Why isn't it that with x amount of light max, a black level of y, a set level for diffuse white and the particulars (right or wrong) for a given film that the curves should all be very similar? If the Lumagen built curves on the fly to match the movie's metadata that would be of great benefit and worth quite a lot to me but it doesn't do that does it?

Any help understanding this and then these choices would be appreciated. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I think and have already written several times that Sonys HDR tone mapping is not very good. So it is quite easy to beat and improve that. Either by use of a Lumagen or by some Arve curves. This not different to any other projector: they all profit from a proper tone mapping and calibration adjusted to the individual setup (screen etc). The difference IMO (and I have seen most high end projectors in various setups) that the VW760 is already very impressive for most people when it is just installed without any tuning at all.
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post #1482 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
As for sales.... There are exactly zero 285, 385 and 885s in stock. I am sure Mike and Craig both have access and can confirm. For actual numbers on the 885... They completely sold out their first batch. How many exactly I have asked and am waiting for that number. Early estimates say about 75 to 100. This is just US numbers. Either way I think with the popularity of the Sony models it is obvious people are wanting 4K more and more these days. With all the traffic in this Owner’s thread which is already on page 50 it is easy to say the 885 is a huge success. They are expecting a few in Feb. 3rd ish. And those that “know” get that Sony always keeps a few for emergency exchanges. I am sure someone will attempt to downplay the 885’s sales but honestly I don’t think the owners here care. I don’t think Sony or anyone expected it to take off like it has and they are thrilled!
Correct, you can check with any dealer with access and they can confirm that it will be March before the 885's really start to flow again from Sony.

The Sony 285, 385 and 885 projectors have been very successful. After seeing them at CEDIA, I told Sony that they had some winners on their hands and that I expected them to sell well.
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post #1483 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 06:24 AM
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I can tell you this. I had Tinkeritis from the day I got the 885. That was until Chris B calibrated this beast. He completely cured my ailment. Now I haven't touched it. Scared to actually. I don't want to screw up what he's accomplished with the unit and be in pain and misery until he could find time to return to reverse the damage. And it feels so good that it's so solid and visually impressive now that I can just turn it on and enjoy it without tinkering myself to death.
I think that will go for a lot of people on this forum. The reason why a calibration to the standards is a good idea is because the Blu Ray etc are mastered on a calibrated display, so when the Direct and/or the DOP sign it off, all the colours etc are as they want us to see it. If we want to see it as the director intended, then get your display calibrated to the standards (gamut, D65 greyscale, gamma, brightness, contrast) and you will see everything correctly and accurately (to the limits of the display of course).

Then, when you view a DVD/BD/UHD disk, you will know you are seeing it as it should be seen and don't have to tweak anything - just sit back and enjoy it.

If you don't get a display calibrated, you'll never know if what you are seeing is correct or not, and then will always be second guessing the director as to how the colours etc should look and no matter how much tweaking you do, it will never be right. Even setting the brightness and contrast using a test disk can make a big difference.

Most disks are mastered well so 99+% of the time you won't have to worry about tweaking. There are the occasional bad transfers but they're so few and far between it's not an issue.

I would think that for those who can't do their own calibrations, the cost of a professional calibration should be a no brainer considering the cost of this pj - it's peanuts in comparison.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #1484 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 07:54 AM
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This post reads very close to someone who used to post here before who is now stuck on the island of misfit toys forum.... Hmmmmm
LOL. I have been told I sound like Paul Daniels too, but, I look nothing like him!
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post #1485 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
As far as I understand a replacement unit is here in Europe provided by Sony Prime support from the UK and their stocks. So despite of any backorders which might be open this is a different channel to maintain the service for broken units. I am pleased (and my friend as well) to note that Sony Prime Support indeed has some stocks reserved for existing customers. Sony Prime Support in Europe has been criticized quite a bit in the past (often well justified). In this case they did a fine job IMO.
Whilst it was a legit question I asked, it was mostly in jest!

I am glad that seems to be the case. I personally, have always had great service when it comes to repair or replacement from Prime Support.
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post #1486 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 08:00 AM
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As for sales.... I don’t think Sony or anyone expected it to take off like it has and they are thrilled!
Indeed that is most likely the case! I just hope that proper ongoing product support is part of that success.
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post #1487 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I think that will go for a lot of people on this forum. The reason why a calibration to the standards is a good idea is because the Blu Ray etc are mastered on a calibrated display, so when the Direct and/or the DOP sign it off, all the colours etc are as they want us to see it. If we want to see it as the director intended, then get your display calibrated to the standards (gamut, D65 greyscale, gamma, brightness, contrast) and you will see everything correctly and accurately (to the limits of the display of course).

Then, when you view a DVD/BD/UHD disk, you will know you are seeing it as it should be seen and don't have to tweak anything - just sit back and enjoy it.

If you don't get a display calibrated, you'll never know if what you are seeing is correct or not, and then will always be second guessing the director as to how the colours etc should look and no matter how much tweaking you do, it will never be right. Even setting the brightness and contrast using a test disk can make a big difference.

Most disks are mastered well so 99+% of the time you won't have to worry about tweaking. There are the occasional bad transfers but they're so few and far between it's not an issue.

I would think that for those who can't do their own calibrations, the cost of a professional calibration should be a no brainer considering the cost of this pj - it's peanuts in comparison.
I would love to hire a calibrator , unfortunately the nearest I can access is 2000KM away, I've personally learned the process myself for this very reason . Purchased the equipment and software including lumagen , i1Display Pro, Chromapure with autocal. Takes a lot of time but once you figure it out it's really not that difficult . That was all fine with the lamp based projectors now I have a blue laser , a tricky light source to calibrate . Information provided to me from some of the calibration software companies is conflicting and confusing. At first I thought impossible to do a blue laser calibration with the i1Display Pro, would have to buy a Klein K-10 or Jeti 1211 . Two of these companies have indicated a work around using the i1PRO2 Specro + a new i1D3 ,another says the i1D3 will suffice if absolute accuracy not required .


What are the other DIY calibrators doing? I'm sure not everyone is up for a new Klein or Jetti likely approaching the $10K mark new. In the mean time, I am in the market for a used Klein K-10 or Jeti should someone know of one . If I can work around
with something less get very close , that will suffice great. For me and many others that what to or as necessary have to do this themselves , a reasonable and affordable option is going to be very appealing.

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post #1488 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 08:14 AM
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Green Diffused Light on VW760ES

I bought a VW760ES a few weeks ago (arrived start of Jan from Sony's latest EU batch).

The first unit displayed a green glow (or diffused laser light) around the white of high contrast images. See picture. This glow would remain for 10-20 minutes after turning on and then just fade away. I contacted Sony support and they said that I needed to wait for the projector to warm up; I was very surprised by this comment (I previously has a VW300ES and that did not require a 15 minute warm-up period). I keep the projector in my living room which is 20C so was very surprised when they said that this was the solution. Are we really going back to the 1970's and having to warm up the TV before we're ready to watch it?

A few days later Sony got back in touch (after I spoke to my dealer) Sony offered a replacement, this has now arrived and has pretty much the same problem. With this the VW760ES image is OK when switched on but after a couple of minutes the green diffusion appears, then gets more severe, this time it is more pronounced than the first unit but only lasts about 5 minutes then fades out and everything seems OK. When the glow is there, watching a white scene (such as a snowy scene in a wildlife documentary) and my whole room turns green.

Has anyone else experienced this issue? Is this really what we should expect from this high-end projector or I have had bad luck twice in a row? I am concerned that this problem will get worse over the lifetime of the unit.
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post #1489 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 08:15 AM
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Just to add a little context to the questions about Lumagen. I have owned many Lumagen products over the past 10 years, and their level of service is second to none. I got my first Radiance Pro in early 2016. I used it for a while and then removed it as I was having hdmi issues. These issues weren’t the fault of the Lumagen, but more the lack of any cables like we have now, that can handle 4K sources over a long distance. This was way before you could even buy the Celerity 18GHz Fiber.

I sold my last Radiance Pro around the beginning of 2017 which only had the 9ghz cards. I just recently bought a brand new Pro with all 18GHz cards.

The software has developed by leaps and bounds over the past two years. I’m getting solid HDMI switching of all 4K sources over a 100’ Fiber cable. All the equipment for my house is located in one central equipment room. From there all video is distributed over a mixture of Rui-Pro or Monoprice 18GHz Fiber cables that run to each of the 8 TVs or 2 projectors installed. The lengths of these Fiber cables I’m using range from 50’ to 150’

But the best feature of the Lumagen is the new “HDR Intensity Mapping” software, which continues to evolve and only get better. I have tried custom curves on both my JVC and Sony projectors. I have tried the features built into UHD Blu-ray players. I own both the Panasonic and oppo. Nothing compares to the Lumagen. I never found a custom curve which was truly “one size fits all” and this is where the Lumagen excels over everything else.

Currently Lumagen has two separate groups of adjustments. One group for under 2500 nit and one group for over 2500 nit. This crossover point is adjustable as well. And these settings are independent for each source as well. This way the Pro can tailor the curve to best fit content regardless if it is was mastered on a 1000 nit or 4000 nit display. Then they adjust each of these groups, not just based on the “Max nit level” but now also look at the MaxCLL and adjust each of the above setting to better match this metadata. This is a much better way making calculations as Max Nit level is really meaningless. It doesn’t matter if content was mastered on a 4000 nit display when the MaxCLL is 500.

But after talking with Jim Peterson this week, this is only going to get better. Unfortunately even the MaxCLL metadata for content can often be wrong. This is something @Javs has been point out in his thread “HDR UHD Waveform”.

So Lumagen is now working on a dynamic process which will actually look at the content in real time and make dynamic calculations for MaxCLL to correct for this sometimes wrong or totally missing data.

They will also be adding HLG and HDR10+ compatibility. Currently I have to route my DirecTV 4K receiver around the Lumagen, because of HLG broadcast, but soon we will be able to use “HDR Intensity Mapping” on that content as well.

For anyone wondering how much of an improvement the Radiance Pro is over a custom curve, just ask Manni. He has worked for the past year or longer on custom curves and even worked with HDFury to create special software and macros which could control JVC projectors and trigger different modes for different content. He has done more work with custom curves than probably anyone else, and once he saw comparisons that Kris Deering showed him between what the Custom curves could offer vs the Lumagen, he pretty much instantly threw in the towel and said he was done messing with custom curves.

The Lumagen offers a fully automated approach where all of this processing and analyzing is happening behind the scenes. Once it’s setup properly, you shouldn’t have to worry if you are missing shadow detail or clipping highlights, and have the peace of mind that you are getting the very best HDR image available.

And as good as the current implementation is we are still at the mercy of existing metadata. But once the Lumagen software is dynamically calculating correct metadata for every title, there won’t be anything that compares.



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post #1490 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Hamsterlegs View Post
I bought a VW760ES a few weeks ago (arrived start of Jan from Sony's latest EU batch).

The first unit displayed a green glow (or diffused laser light) around the white of high contrast images. See picture. This glow would remain for 10-20 minutes after turning on and then just fade away. I contacted Sony support and they said that I needed to wait for the projector to warm up; I was very surprised by this comment (I previously has a VW300ES and that did not require a 15 minute warm-up period). I keep the projector in my living room which is 20C so was very surprised when they said that this was the solution. Are we really going back to the 1970's and having to warm up the TV before we're ready to watch it?

A few days later Sony got back in touch (after I spoke to my dealer) Sony offered a replacement, this has now arrived and has pretty much the same problem. With this the VW760ES image is OK when switched on but after a couple of minutes the green diffusion appears, then gets more severe, this time it is more pronounced than the first unit but only lasts about 5 minutes then fades out and everything seems OK. When the glow is there, watching a white scene (such as a snowy scene in a wildlife documentary) and my whole room turns green.

Has anyone else experienced this issue? Is this really what we should expect from this high-end projector or I have had bad luck twice in a row? I am concerned that this problem will get worse over the lifetime of the unit.
Sorry, that is unacceptable.
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post #1491 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 08:33 AM
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I would love to hire a calibrator , unfortunately the nearest I can access is 2000KM away, I've personally learned the process myself for this very reason . Purchased the equipment and software including lumagen , i1Display Pro, Chromapure with autocal. Takes a lot of time but once you figure it out it's really not that difficult . That was all fine with the lamp based projectors now I have a blue laser , a tricky light source to calibrate . Information provided to me from some of the calibration software companies is conflicting and confusing. At first I thought impossible to do a blue laser calibration with the i1Display Pro, would have to buy a Klein K-10 or Jeti 1211 . Two of these companies have indicated a work around using the i1PRO2 Specro + a new i1D3 ,another says the i1D3 will suffice if absolute accuracy not required .


What are the other DIY calibrators doing? I'm sure not everyone is up for a new Klein or Jetti likely approaching the $10K mark new. In the mean time, I am in the market for a used Klein K-10 or Jeti should someone know of one . If I can work around
with something less get very close , that will suffice great. For me and many others that what to or as necessary have to do this themselves , a reasonable and affordable option is going to be very appealing.
I bolded the direction I went. Works great, and it was nice since I already had both.
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post #1492 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 08:33 AM
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Sorry, that is unacceptable.
Definitely agree. Exchange again.
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post #1493 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 08:58 AM
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I think and have already written several times that Sonys HDR tone mapping is not very good. So it is quite easy to beat and improve that. Either by use of a Lumagen or by some Arve curves. This not different to any other projector: they all profit from a proper tone mapping and calibration adjusted to the individual setup (screen etc). The difference IMO (and I have seen most high end projectors in various setups) that the VW760 is already very impressive for most people when it is just installed without any tuning at all.

I read here a lot of comments and inputs from non-owners (unfortunatelly). As Roxy has written most of that information is unfortunatelly rather misleading and non informative. I agree on that statement. The reason for that is that in most cases there are typically no comparative data from other measurements provided. Remember those dB measurements letting people conclude that the VW760/885 is significantly loader than the other smaller 4K Sony or those contrast numbers of Kris Deering. No control measurements were provided from other projectors again for low % of ADL. The message people are led to conclude is that the VW760 provides milky blacks when feeding movie pictures with low % of ADL. How such data are properly done and presented is demonstrated by Anna & Flo (see http://projectiondream.com/en/category/general-en/ )

Coming back to the initial and cited question. I like very much the reports and comments of dmillionz. He had used the opportunity to engage Chad B. Reading this forum I understand that this guy seems to be a very experienced calibrator. I am not surprised that Chad B immediately used the Arve tool for Sony projectors. The reason for that I have written in my first sentence.

When this guy indicates something like "If the Lumagen provides a substantial improvement (I can't even imagine how) over what the 885 and he can deliver without it, it looks like he will be making a second trip here" then I take this as a very useful information. That comes from an experienced person who has seen and used the possible improvements by both options. Having said this: no method provides optimal results unless you know how to use it at its best.

Coming back to the VW760. A friend of mine has typically a lot of bad luck with projectors (with both Sony and JVC). He got his VW760 already swapped twice and is now with his third. Of course people in a German forum were asking him why he is still buying Sony (because he also reported lots of problems with a VW520 in the past). To me he said that he hates Sony but there is no good alternative for him when it comes to over all picture quality. In the forum he wrote:
Key message: he can not see any alternative to the VW760 for him on the market. The same applies to me having also owned other Sony and JVC in the past. This is actually the first projector that gives me the impression that the quality of material that I feed is limiting my cinematic experience rather than the projector itself. This does not mean that this projector is perfect but just how much I am pleased with the performance in my setup.
Agree completely that default HDR tone mapping with most projectors are poor. They have gotten much better than the starting line of a year or two ago, but they are still a ways from what can be achieved with the Arve tool or something like the Lumagen. JVC gives you a better implementation in that it has a completely different picture mode that is automatically selected with the input signal and control over the gamma curve (not just the clip points). But that is more of a usability thing than actual picture quality.


Not sure why anyone would have a problem with the measurements for near black contrast. It wasn't meant as a knock against the projector, it was pretty clear I was showing that the dynamic dimming was ineffective. I even showed how they related to the projectiondream measurements that you mention. This was to uncover a problem that people were already talking about and how the dimming was doing NOTHING for contrast performance except with full black. Sorry if my wanting to point out an obvious design issue (that could be resolved) so that people are aware ruffled feathers. Given how great Sony's dynamic contrast implementation on the rest of their line has been for ages now, I'm really surprised that people are even remotely happy with this one in that respect. Talk around it all you want, but it is broken plain and simple. I have ZERO doubt that the contrast performance of the 675 and 385 would be superior with every usage case except a full blackout (as this one can do full black with the laser off).


I have absolutely ZERO issue at all with the enthusiasm of the owner's on this board. I think it is great that so many like the projector, it throws a great image. My issue comes when issues are ignored or denied despite clear evidence to the contrary. Or, worse even, misinformation is passed. This serves no one.
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post #1494 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 09:00 AM
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Ah ok cool... he prob knows about it already and enhanced it further... btw: I love 3D.. that's the deciding factor for me when purchasing a projector.. how well it does 3D.. and in this regard the JVCs fail miserably... (I am talking about their faux 4K machines)...
Sounds like you haven't looked at a JVC for 3D in awhile. Most of the 3D enthusiasts that use the newer models say it is the closest thing they've seen to DLP performance on the market. Ghosting is all but a thing of the past and the increases in brightness starting with the HDR models has given enough brightness for use on my screen sizes with little issue.

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post #1495 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 09:00 AM
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This is helpful to me; thank-you for your response. While I still don't understand how this differs from doing tone mapping in HCFR (while today I have one curve for 1k and one for 4k I could build one for over and under 2.5k as well (or whatever)) I do understand that not having to build a curve myself and move it into the pj makes things a lot easier.

I really like your comment that down the road it will do what I was wondering about, on-the-fly curve generation; sort of a dynamic metadata curve whether or not the meta data is static or dynamic (or just plain wrong). Did you get a handle on timing/cost of this or at least a this year/next year kind of indication?

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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post

Currently Lumagen has two separate groups of adjustments. One group for under 2500 nit and one group for over 2500 nit. This crossover point is adjustable as well. And these settings are independent for each source as well. This way the Pro can tailor the curve to best fit content regardless if it is was mastered on a 1000 nit or 4000 nit display. Then they adjust each of these groups, not just based on the “Max nit level” but now also look at the MaxCLL and adjust each of the above setting to better match this metadata. This is a much better way making calculations as Max Nit level is really meaningless. It doesn’t matter if content was mastered on a 4000 nit display when the MaxCLL is 500.

But after talking with Jim Peterson this week, this is only going to get better. Unfortunately even the MaxCLL metadata for content can often be wrong. This is something @Javs has been point out in his thread “HDR UHD Waveform”.

So Lumagen is now working on a dynamic process which will actually look at the content in real time and make dynamic calculations for MaxCLL to correct for this sometimes wrong or totally missing data.

They will also be adding HLG and HDR10+ compatibility. Currently I have to route my DirecTV 4K receiver around the Lumagen, because of HLG broadcast, but soon we will be able to use “HDR Intensity Mapping” on that content as well.

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post #1496 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 09:06 AM
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As for sales.... There are exactly zero 285, 385 and 885s in stock. I am sure Mike and Craig both have access and can confirm. For actual numbers on the 885... They completely sold out their first batch. How many exactly I have asked and am waiting for that number. Early estimates say about 75 to 100. This is just US numbers. Either way I think with the popularity of the Sony models it is obvious people are wanting 4K more and more these days. With all the traffic in this Owner’s thread which is already on page 50 it is easy to say the 885 is a huge success. They are expecting a few in Feb. 3rd ish. And those that “know” get that Sony always keeps a few for emergency exchanges. I am sure someone will attempt to downplay the 885’s sales but honestly I don’t think the owners here care. I don’t think Sony or anyone expected it to take off like it has and they are thrilled!
Sure, the Sony 4K projectors have been popular - especially the VW285. The 385, less so, and the VW675 might as well be dead and buried. But to Kris's point, their being out of stock does not equal millions sold. They could be out of stock due to production problems and not making very many. Only Sony's bean counters know for sure. I'd bet Epson sells 10X as many HC4000's and 5040UB's than all Sony 4k projectors combined, just based on price.
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post #1497 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 09:12 AM
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This is helpful to me; thank-you for your response. While I still don't understand how this differs from doing tone mapping in HCFR (while today I have one curve for 1k and one for 4k I could build one for over and under 2.5k as well (or whatever)) I do understand that not having to build a curve myself and move it into the pj makes things a lot easier.

I really like your comment that down the road it will do what I was wondering about, on-the-fly curve generation; sort of a dynamic metadata curve whether or not the meta data is static or dynamic (or just plain wrong). Did you get a handle on timing/cost of this or at least a this year/next year kind of indication?
I haven't tried HCFR. I know that no matter how much work is done with an Arve curve, it can't match the performance I'm seeing from the Radiance. You lose EVERY TIME with shadow detail and overall image contrast.


Also, the Lumagen is already doing dynamic curves. As Chris mentioned, it has settings for above and below a certain threshold but that is not the extent of it. It looks at the MaxCLL and adapts its curve to that number. So despite having settings for titles less than say 2000, it actually modulates those settings on a title by title basis. So different settings are used for a title with a MaxCLL of 300 than one of 900, despite the menus being setup the same for both. But the Lumagen is at the mercy of the reported values, which aren't always correct or even filled in (it uses a variety of workarounds to still provide the best image possible). They are working on real time frame by frame analysis for the best of all worlds and no more reliance on metadata. Don't know the ETA on that.

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post #1498 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 09:13 AM
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Sure, the Sony 4K projectors have been popular - especially the VW285. The 385, less so, and the VW675 might as well be dead and buried. But to Kris's point, their being out of stock does not equal millions sold. They could be out of stock due to production problems and not making very many. Only Sony's bean counters know for sure. I'd bet Epson sells 10X as many HC4000's and 5040UB's than all Sony 4k projectors combined, just based on price.
I don’t think anyone is implying “Millions” sold. And as someone who sells Sony you sure seem very quick to point out that being sold out doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing? Oh wait that was someone else’s point. You know Mike’s reply back was definitely better than yours. Being sold out is a very good thing. Definitely better than having a bunch sitting in a warehouse somewhere. Being sold out equals good. You can’t twist that into a negative.

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post #1499 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 09:15 AM
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I bought a VW760ES a few weeks ago (arrived start of Jan from Sony's latest EU batch).

The first unit displayed a green glow (or diffused laser light) around the white of high contrast images. See picture. This glow would remain for 10-20 minutes after turning on and then just fade away. I contacted Sony support and they said that I needed to wait for the projector to warm up; I was very surprised by this comment (I previously has a VW300ES and that did not require a 15 minute warm-up period). I keep the projector in my living room which is 20C so was very surprised when they said that this was the solution. Are we really going back to the 1970's and having to warm up the TV before we're ready to watch it?

A few days later Sony got back in touch (after I spoke to my dealer) Sony offered a replacement, this has now arrived and has pretty much the same problem. With this the VW760ES image is OK when switched on but after a couple of minutes the green diffusion appears, then gets more severe, this time it is more pronounced than the first unit but only lasts about 5 minutes then fades out and everything seems OK. When the glow is there, watching a white scene (such as a snowy scene in a wildlife documentary) and my whole room turns green.

Has anyone else experienced this issue? Is this really what we should expect from this high-end projector or I have had bad luck twice in a row? I am concerned that this problem will get worse over the lifetime of the unit.
Holy crap!
Did this/these units not get QC'd before going out of the door of the factory?
Oh dear! That sort of thing lends itself massively to my quip (or it was at the time) that they will be throwing these things together to meet demand.... Not good. Not good at all!

If it was me I would rather wait a few months and get a fully formed one in pristine order than have to deal with an image like that.

Has anyone else suffered this as well?

That is rubbish anyway, but for the price of this unit, every single one, should be gone over with a fine toothed comb before shipping.

Sony are not doing well at the moment are they?

They should sack their profit chasing CEO and get back to making superb, fully formed and supported electronics and look after those that buy them.

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post #1500 of 4534 Old 01-26-2018, 09:28 AM
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They could be out of stock due to production problems and not making very many. Only Sony's bean counters know for sure.
That is distinctly possible, especially after the image shown above! I mean it is not even as if it was just a one off! The same guy received another doing the same!
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