Samsung The Wall MicroLED 4K TV at CES 2018 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 342 Old 01-08-2018, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DRN94 View Post
With this news I'm certain my next display will be a MicroLED, even if it's 3+ years off, I'm in no hurry. Can't believe I'll be jumping from my 2014 F8500 plasma all the way to MicroLED, skipping OLED altogether. Would have never guessed that would happen just a couple years ago when OLED looked like the endgame for TVs. Hopefully MicroLED will eventually be capable of 100% rec.2020 and 10,000 nits peak white. That is the dream
You could enjoy OLED and UHD HDR content for 4-5 years and microLED may still not be affordable in common sizes.
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post #62 of 342 Old 01-08-2018, 11:14 PM
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So this is a true LED TV.

That's why you don't use BS marketing terms: What do you do when the real thing comes along?
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post #63 of 342 Old 01-08-2018, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Aside from price, acoustics. In addition to not being able to put speakers behind the screen you will have a very large, highly reflective surface covering the front wall of the theater.
There exists simple solutions to both of those issues

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post #64 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 01:49 AM
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So this is a true LED TV.

That's why you don't use BS marketing terms: What do you do when the real thing comes along?
You have to augment the LED naming. As here, with MyCrow LED.

But I do expect that eventually we will be seeing "True-LED TV", and "Real-LED TV", and "Not that crappy olde LED-backlit LCD TV".
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post #65 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
There exists simple solutions to both of those issues

.
Mark me down as skeptical 🤨 on this one Nigel. Do I believe this setup can be made to sound “good”? Yes, Peter is well into those designs now. Do I believe it can sound as good as a well treated, optimized AT screen setup? No. I would also agree that “good” may be acceptable for many, given the superior HDR perfomance of flat screens. It’s all a matter of which trade offs suit your preferences. For me, the Duo is “good” enough on HDR to opt for the better sound.
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post #66 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Mark me down as skeptical on this one Nigel. Do I believe this setup can be made to sound “good”? Yes, Peter is well into those designs now. Do I believe it can sound as good as a well treated, optimized AT screen setup? No. I would also agree that “good” may be acceptable for many, given the superior HDR perfomance of flat screens. It’s all a matter of which trade offs suit your preferences. For me, the Duo is “good” enough on HDR to opt for the better sound.
No worries Brad!

It's a tough nut to crack that's for sure, but I already developed and built a solution for this over a year ago

I am actually personally extremely interested in this product and if pricing is not too crazy I will almost certainly install it into my media room. The other candidate for consideration is the 100" SONY ZD9/Z9D or a 100"+ size OLED TV if one appears sometime soon (unlikely).

That said, I am also in process of building a dedicated cinema here (I'm nuts about AV ) with acoustically transparent screen plus projector array, and suffice to say that the SIM2 HDR DUO is one of a very very short-list of potential candidates for the projector that I will be installing. So I am a huge fan of that product also.

But don't take my word for it! If you ever find yourself visiting England / London please come and visit and I will happily demo to you the audio system I've built that's a 13.4.11 audio system with absolutely zero compromise with respect to audio sound quality and which accomodates up to a 150" size non-accoustically transparent screen. Until then please by all means remain skeptical!

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post #67 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 06:43 AM
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Not sure if this was answered - is 146 the biggest screen possible or could it be bigger?
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post #68 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 06:59 AM
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Not sure if this was answered - is 146 the biggest screen possible or could it be bigger?
It's modular, so it can be any size you like which is made out of a combination of modules

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post #69 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DRN94 View Post
Dolby Vision is mastered up to 10,000 nits I believe, some content targets 1000, 2000, and 4000 as well. I want a TV that can faithfully reproduce all of these different peak white targets but to me full rec.2020 coverage is a must. I don't care if I have to wait 5-10 years before upgrading lol
I am curious that whenever full rec 2020 is achieved what perceptual difference will there actually be over full P3 to the human eye?

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post #70 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 08:49 AM
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The great thing is that this size is even available. What's the largest OLED that's been produced? Nothing that's really big enough for a home theater, I don't think, which to me is minimum 100".



I love that demo file they're showing on it I hope it shows up soon on http://4kmedia.org/tag/hdr/ !

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post #71 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
The big difference is that OLED has been patent encumbered for the only affordable way to produce them. That doesn’t seem to be the case with MicroLED, so we could see competition driving the prices down quickly vs what we’ve seen with OLED where LG Display the only game in town.
The problem with MicroLED right now is that there is no way to produce them affordably. Each display we have seen was a bespoke product built explicitly as a tech demo. Using standard pick and place technology to create a 4k tv with 24 million pixels would take 40 days to create one tv.

So I guarantee you that there will be several manufacturing techniques created. They will each have several components which will individually be patent encumbered. The big guys will investigate and attempt to sabotage the other manufacturing techniques by patenting a crucial step within their competitor's chosen method of production. There are already dozens of startups and other tech research firms which have vaporware patents that they will try and capitalize on when the big players begin their 10+ billion dollar expenditures to build their MicroLED dedicated fab plants.
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post #72 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 09:28 AM
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Non Sequitur

I'm amazed at the image quality from watching the video on my cell phone.
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post #73 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 09:58 AM
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The current 65" TCL is edge-lit, but they did announce a new 65" FALD today. Sony 900E/F or 930E are also worth looking at, as is an OLED if you can snag a 65" for under $2K.

The problem with LG's LCDs is they're all IPS, which is great if you want super-wide viewing angles, but bad if you want good black levels in a dark room. Go OLED or a nice VA panel with FALD and you'll be impressed.
Thanks for the feedback. I have been told that the 930E is a good set. Any news of the QLED? I have been very impressed with Samsung TV’s. As I posted I bought a D8000 back a few years and I have been impressed with the TV since I bought it. I also have a LN46B750 that is still going strong that we rotated to our bedroom, but man I still think that set look pretty good for a 2009. I am probably going to start looking around the Super Bowl for a good deal.

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post #74 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 10:15 AM
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This video shows the tiles, they are about the size of a cell phone screen. You can see the tiles at about 1:15 in the video.

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post #75 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 10:21 AM
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The great thing about micro tiles is you can arrange as CIA with no wasted tiles. For instance you can set tiles for 1.78 and add extra tiles to the 2.35 width area not the full height area. Has a price been disclosed?
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post #76 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Flaky View Post
The problem with MicroLED right now is that there is no way to produce them affordably. Each display we have seen was a bespoke product built explicitly as a tech demo. Using standard pick and place technology to create a 4k tv with 24 million pixels would take 40 days to create one tv.

So I guarantee you that there will be several manufacturing techniques created. They will each have several components which will individually be patent encumbered. The big guys will investigate and attempt to sabotage the other manufacturing techniques by patenting a crucial step within their competitor's chosen method of production. There are already dozens of startups and other tech research firms which have vaporware patents that they will try and capitalize on when the big players begin their 10+ billion dollar expenditures to build their MicroLED dedicated fab plants.
So the manufacturing techniques aren't already created ? I have to believe we will certainly see the prices plummet. I had 40" plasma that cost 5000USD. Those who have the money will simply have to have this even at the beginning it's simply too cool to not own if you can; this is in addition to the bigger the better that goes along with it.

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post #77 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Flaky View Post
The problem with MicroLED right now is that there is no way to produce them affordably. Each display we have seen was a bespoke product built explicitly as a tech demo. Using standard pick and place technology to create a 4k tv with 24 million pixels would take 40 days to create one tv.



So I guarantee you that there will be several manufacturing techniques created. They will each have several components which will individually be patent encumbered. The big guys will investigate and attempt to sabotage the other manufacturing techniques by patenting a crucial step within their competitor's chosen method of production. There are already dozens of startups and other tech research firms which have vaporware patents that they will try and capitalize on when the big players begin their 10+ billion dollar expenditures to build their MicroLED dedicated fab plants.


I read a report a few years back that the FTC was going to crack down on patent trolls. I thought I’d just look it up now. I found dozens of articles about the FTC proposal but nothing about the outcome. I’m guessing this was just a publicity stunt and nothing has changed. So long story short, I have a bad feeling your right.
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post #78 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 10:55 AM
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The great thing about micro tiles is you can arrange as CIA with no wasted tiles. For instance you can set tiles for 1.78 and add extra tiles to the 2.35 width area not the full height area. Has a price been disclosed?


Why can't they make just one big tile? I noticed on the wall that it was one giant screen consisting of a bunch of tiles. I find that to be very a very unattractive trait to microled. The contrast and peak brightness on the other hand is amazing!


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post #79 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 11:01 AM
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For this kind of money you could lift the house move in then set it back down.

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LOL. I live in a small town in Minnesota. My guess is that the first generation 'wall' will be more expensive than my house. Probably easier to buy it and then build a new house around it.
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post #80 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Trevor L View Post
This video shows the tiles, they are about the size of a cell phone screen. You can see the tiles at about 1:15 in the video.

https://youtu.be/imIrem-9hEc
I noticed also in the video they show 8K next to 4K. The 8K just looks brighter and in some of the videos I like the 4K better. Heck I don't even have 4K and don't have any plans to upgrade for a while.

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post #81 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 02:03 PM
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I am curious that whenever full rec 2020 is achieved what perceptual difference will there actually be over full P3 to the human eye?
Probably quite substantial. DCI-P3 is only around 77% of Rec.2020. As peak white levels increase color coverage and volume becomes even more important which is something all sets struggle with right now even QD backlights.
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post #82 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 02:13 PM
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You could enjoy OLED and UHD HDR content for 4-5 years and microLED may still not be affordable in common sizes.
OLEDs plummeted in price quicker than most expected. If Samsung is going to seriously commit themselves to MicroLED (which they have no choice but to if they wish to keep their market share) then expect MicroLED prices to come down very fast. They're not gonna drag their feet with this tech if the manufacturing limitations allow it.

That being said, I'm completely happy with my 2013/14 sets. I'll be skipping this temporary prototype phase of "HDR" and take all the money saved and be ready to drop big bucks when a 10,000+ nits, full rec.2020 display is finally achieved. I prefer going from perfect 1080p SDR displays to perfect 4K/8K HDR displays, don't see much point in spoiling that jump with any of these "medium dynamic range" TVs coming out right now.
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post #83 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 03:29 PM
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Cool

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No worries Brad!


That said, I am also in process of building a dedicated cinema here (I'm nuts about AV ) with acoustically transparent screen plus projector array, and suffice to say that the SIM2 HDR DUO is one of a very very short-list of potential candidates for the projector that I will be installing. So I am a huge fan of that product also.

Nigel, you should bring a 5000ES to Alan's lab and do a compare with the DUO. Could be fun
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post #84 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 05:57 PM
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I had 40" plasma that cost 5000USD.
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post #85 of 342 Old 01-09-2018, 07:52 PM
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Why can't they make just one big tile? I noticed on the wall that it was one giant screen consisting of a bunch of tiles. I find that to be very a very unattractive trait to microled. The contrast and peak brightness on the other hand is amazing!


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From what I’ve read, in most of these systems the amount of ‘black space’ is much larger than the amount of actual surface LED material. As long as an interlocking mechanism that holds them close enough, tight enough, and in a perfect plane with each other can be developed it’s unlikely you’d see the divisions between tiles when it was on.

Of course, there is the potential for variations in brightness between tiles to make the stile structure more visible, but that could be solved through tight QC, or perhaps a camera/light-sensor based calibration system that normalizes all of the tiles to each other.

You could even have redundant LED trios within each tile with a fault detection system to automatically shut off bad or stuck pixels in favor of a neighboring backup. They could also use secondary pixels to do what should be an imperceptible pixel shift in order to prevent burn-in and extend the life of the display.

Another neat possibility would be separating the tiles from the controlling hardware, so you have a separate box that your HDMI cables plug into, which then plugs into the ‘master’ tile and controls everything via electrical leads in the tile connecting mechanism. When HDMI standards change and new features become available it would be as simple as just replacing the controller box without having to replace the whole display.

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post #86 of 342 Old 01-10-2018, 12:18 AM
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Exclamation

How about the new Sony X1 Ultimate 8K LED Display?..

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post #87 of 342 Old 01-10-2018, 12:24 AM
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This video shows the tiles, they are about the size of a cell phone screen. You can see the tiles at about 1:15 in the video.
Hey, Trevor. I'm not saying you're wrong... but I think you are. I believe what you're referring to in the video is simply a cell-phone screen being used as a light source. If you continue to watch, as the camera shifts angles ~1:35, that "cell-tile" slides off to the right.

And, oh, look! There it is again, at the 2:56 mark, over on the 8K screen! An Unidentified Illuminated Object! They never mentioned that display being tiled too. And then at 3:02 it slides over onto the 4K display.


More interesting though was the setup with dual microscopes at 1:05, showing conventional round LEDs, vs. the structure of MicroLEDs. As was suggested here, there is still (comparatively) a lot of space between the LED elements, at least from the horizontal space shown between the vertical strips. Vertically though, they're pretty tight rectangular triads.

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post #88 of 342 Old 01-10-2018, 05:15 AM
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Hey, Trevor. I'm not saying you're wrong... but I think you are. I believe what you're referring to in the video is simply a cell-phone screen being used as a light source. If you continue to watch, as the camera shifts angles ~1:35, that "cell-tile" slides off to the right.

And, oh, look! There it is again, at the 2:56 mark, over on the 8K screen! An Unidentified Illuminated Object! They never mentioned that display being tiled too. And then at 3:02 it slides over onto the 4K display.


More interesting though was the setup with dual microscopes at 1:05, showing conventional round LEDs, vs. the structure of MicroLEDs. As was suggested here, there is still (comparatively) a lot of space between the LED elements, at least from the horizontal space shown between the vertical strips. Vertically though, they're pretty tight rectangular triads.
No he is right. Pause the video at 1:16 and you can clearly see the tiles when there is no image on the screen. They are maybe 3" horizontal x 6" vertical

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post #89 of 342 Old 01-10-2018, 05:20 AM
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No he is right. Pause the video at 1:16 and you can clearly see the tiles when there is no image on the screen. They are maybe 3" horizontal x 6" vertical


Just found this too on here https://www.microled-info.com/here-s...ro-led-tv-wall : "Reports from CES suggest that each tile is about 3-inch in size"

However in that video you can clearly see the seams when there is no image on the display.

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post #90 of 342 Old 01-10-2018, 05:27 AM
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Those with money to burn can already buy similar screens:

Problems: pixels die, and new replacement tiles (pixel<tile<cabinet<screen) need to be calibrated to match the old ones. Not only can’t tiles from different production batches be mixed; pixel colors shift after burning hundreds of hours.
Oh and it’s heavy...

But very cool and super bright
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