Panamorph DCR Paladin Owners Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 1035 Old 01-28-2018, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
If you are using V-Strecth on Sony , then something has to horizontally expand the image to fill the scope screen
Hopefully - Shawn Kelly will chime in to address this.
My uneducated guess is that it is horizontal expansion lens . Because I don?t see any user friendly option in Sony menu to incorporate vertical squeeze lens
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post #32 of 1035 Old 01-28-2018, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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post #33 of 1035 Old 01-28-2018, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a image 11 feet from the screen - I sit in the front row11 feet away.
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post #34 of 1035 Old 01-28-2018, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Here is a image 11 feet from the screen - I sit in the front row11 feet away.
Looks very good Ash... congrats
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post #35 of 1035 Old 01-28-2018, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Here is a image 11 feet from the screen - I sit in the front row11 feet away.
If you can post the zone panel alignment grid as well, it will help a lot for everyone considering A lens
On this pic ... don?t see much pincushioning at all
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post #36 of 1035 Old 01-28-2018, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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post #37 of 1035 Old 01-28-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
My uneducated guess is that it is horizontal expansion lens . Because I don?t see any user friendly option in Sony menu to incorporate vertical squeeze lens
It’s a vertical compression lens

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post #38 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Before I installed the DCR - for 2:40 (which is what I mostly watch) - the wasted pixels were on top and bottom of the screen - my screen stage is a black hole but my room is all kinds of colors and the soffit above and below is painted in gold and blue (See picture below) - this light would spill on the soffit and cause all kinds of havoc on my picture (I am guessing ANSI??) ...
With the DCR Palladin the picture is perfectly projected on my screen area only with very slight spill which is on my screen velvet and thus vanishing - this is giving a big boost of picture quality to my eyes...


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post #39 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 07:42 AM
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I think Sony's A lens menu options work the same whether it's VC or HE - with HE the 16:9 image in the middle of the screen has black bars above and below the scope image and the HE lens expands the width, The Sony will vertically stretch the image to remove the black bars and restore the geometry.

With a VC lens, you zoom the image to fit the width on the screen and the scope image fills the 2.40 screen, with black bars above and below the screen. When you add the VC lens, you compress the image and bring the black bars onto the screen and the image is now too thin, just like it was on with the HE lens. Using the Sony to vertically stretch the image to remove the black bars gives the same result as with the HE lens.

I'm not sure how the 16:9 sideways 'squish' would work if you keep the lens in place and use that to scale 16:9 movies to fit CIH without removing the lens, but I've a feeling it will work just the same. I prefer that method over removing an A lens for 16:9 as it keeps the pixel density and fL levels the same for both formats, and don't miss the loss of res that it entails. If most of your viewing is BD, you'll only be losing res for UHD 16:9 movies, so it's only going to be a very small amount of movies overall.
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post #40 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I think Sony's A lens menu options work the same whether it's VC or HE - with HE the 16:9 image in the middle of the screen has black bars above and below the scope image and the HE lens expands the width, The Sony will vertically stretch the image to remove the black bars and restore the geometry.

With a VC lens, you zoom the image to fit the width on the screen and the scope image fills the 2.40 screen, with black bars above and below the screen. When you add the VC lens, you compress the image and bring the black bars onto the screen and the image is now too thin, just like it was on with the HE lens. Using the Sony to vertically stretch the image to remove the black bars gives the same result as with the HE lens.

I'm not sure how the 16:9 sideways 'squish' would work if you keep the lens in place and use that to scale 16:9 movies to fit CIH without removing the lens, but I've a feeling it will work just the same. I prefer that method over removing an A lens for 16:9 as it keeps the pixel density and fL levels the same for both formats, and don't miss the loss of res that it entails. If most of your viewing is BD, you'll only be losing res for UHD 16:9 movies, so it's only going to be a very small amount of movies overall.
Correct. It is also why a VC lens requires a longer throw and can have less pincushion. With HE lens, you are required to fill the height, with VC you are required to fill the width.
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post #41 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 08:25 AM
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Wow, thanks very much Ash for the many kind words. Seeing your remarks was a great way to start a week!

Some general comments and answers to questions:

Pre-order Shipments: All pre-order units are still scheduled to ship no later than this Wednesday. FedEx will email tracking to the email address used for each order once it’s in their system.

Brightness Enhancement: 38% brightness enhancement should be achieved compared to zooming up a 3840 letterbox image. This includes a factor of about 1.14 from upconversion to 4096 multiplied by a factor of about 1.22- 1.23 or so from the anamorphic process. If you start with 4096 due to the projector already having that mode (ie in Ash’s case he started from “2.35:1 Zoom” at 4096 wide in the Sony) then only the anamorphic enhancement factor will apply (1.25x minus transmission losses).

Horizontal Expansion (Mani): The full width of the 4096 image is all produced by the projector zoom lens itself. That’s part of the setup – first zoom the image out to fill the width. This of course makes the height of the projector image scan onto the wall above and below the screen but then the Paladin vertically compresses this all down to fit into the screen.

Increased Clarity: Ultimately this has always been the goal of anamorphic theater beyond the brightness enhancement but is completely dependent on the maintained clarity through the lens and the quality of upconversion processing. A deficiency in either can compromise the benefits but while we’re proud of the clarity the Paladin provides we’re actually pretty excited about how the algorithms (and processing horsepower) are evolving to take advantage of the extra 2.5+ million pixels (from 3840 letterbox). It is a complex blend of art and science to take full advantage of those pixels but the fact is that they are now there and now provide at least the potential for that much more detail whether real or artificially generated or some combination thereof. Kudos to Sony. It was seeing the processing on the new VPL-VW885ES that inspired the creation of the DCR lens.
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post #42 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Correct. It is also why a VC lens requires a longer throw and can have less pincushion. With HE lens, you are required to fill the height, with VC you are required to fill the width.
Aren't you more likely to get barrel distortion with a VC lens than pincushion?

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post #43 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Kelly View Post
Wow, thanks very much Ash for the many kind words. Seeing your remarks was a great way to start a week! [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Some general comments and answers to questions:

Pre-order Shipments: All pre-order units are still scheduled to ship no later than this Wednesday. FedEx will email tracking to the email address used for each order once it?s in their system.

Brightness Enhancement: 38% brightness enhancement should be achieved compared to zooming up a 3840 letterbox image. This includes a factor of about 1.14 from upconversion to 4096 multiplied by a factor of about 1.22- 1.23 or so from the anamorphic process. If you start with 4096 due to the projector already having that mode (ie in Ash?s case he started from ?2.35:1 Zoom? at 4096 wide in the Sony) then only the anamorphic enhancement factor will apply (1.25x minus transmission losses).

Horizontal Expansion (Mani): The full width of the 4096 image is all produced by the projector zoom lens itself. That?s part of the setup ? first zoom the image out to fill the width. This of course makes the height of the projector image scan onto the wall above and below the screen but then the Paladin vertically compresses this all down to fit into the screen.

Increased Clarity: Ultimately this has always been the goal of anamorphic theater beyond the brightness enhancement but is completely dependent on the maintained clarity through the lens and the quality of upconversion processing. A deficiency in either can compromise the benefits but while we?re proud of the clarity the Paladin provides we?re actually pretty excited about how the algorithms (and processing horsepower) are evolving to take advantage of the extra 2.5+ million pixels (from 3840 letterbox). It is a complex blend of art and science to take full advantage of those pixels but the fact is that they are now there and now provide at least the potential for that much more detail whether real or artificially generated or some combination thereof. Kudos to Sony. It was seeing the processing on the new VPL-VW885ES that inspired the creation of the DCR lens.
Thanks .... . I was not aware of the zooming part as setup . Makes sense now
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post #44 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 10:00 AM
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Just a note on Ash's distortion and chromatic aberration observations. Both these are dependent on throw ratio. At 1.8:1 they are indeed very difficult to see even on test patterns but down to a throw ratio of 1.4:1 they will increase slightly. At 1.4:1 throw ratio the chromatic aberration (ie color separation) on a test pattern can be seen at the top and bottom of the image from about 2/3 screen width from the screen. It is still very sharp though and naturally at normal viewing distances it's invisible but panel alignment is an option to totally eliminate it at closer inspection. The residual edge distortion (and yes, it is barrel shaped) at the minimum 1.4:1 ratio can require a border up to about 0.005 times the screen diagonal to fully mask. It's still very difficult to see in actual images once masked by the screen border but especially if you're watching 16:9 with black bars left and right without masking you may want to use the advanced Sony software for dialing out the distortion. Again, the higher the throw ratio the less visual these things are even in test patterns and most people don't bother with the fine tuning at any throw ratio, but the options are there if desired.

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post #45 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Correct. It is also why a VC lens requires a longer throw and can have less pincushion. With HE lens, you are required to fill the height, with VC you are required to fill the width.
So it seems that one would typically get more light output with a HE vs a VC Lens.

Is there a reason Panamorph went this route? Are 4K projectors typically mounted further back and/or the room usually deeper?

Edit: I see that Shawn from Panamorph is in here so I should tag him to to pose the question to...

@Shawn Kelly

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post #46 of 1035 Old 01-29-2018, 04:01 PM
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VC provides more light output than HE and is one of the reasons we've developed the Paladins over the past few years. For the same screen size and throw distance VC means you zoom out a lot more with the projector zoom lens so the projector itself puts out more light - around 10% more than HE. The other reason is that VC with integrated astigmatism correction provides much higher sharpness than HE to a large degree because the image is angularly smaller in the vertical vs. horizontal direction.
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post #47 of 1035 Old 01-30-2018, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Aren't you more likely to get barrel distortion with a VC lens than pincushion?
Yes, thanks for the correction. Been a while since I have messed with a vertical compression lens. Last one was the Panamorph FVX200.
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post #48 of 1035 Old 02-01-2018, 11:07 AM
 
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Was looking forward to my shipped DCR for delivery today after a week long travel, got home and missed FedEx by 2 mins (sign on door), will be on travel tomorrow and won't be able to manually pick mine up until Monday sometime..

Pissed...
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post #49 of 1035 Old 02-04-2018, 01:55 AM
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Dear all,

I'am very happy with the DCR Palladin. However, I'am little bit unsure if I have correctly mounted the lens to my Sony VPL885.

My question is now do the lens look correctly mounted on the pictures below?

Thank you very much for your help and sorry for this stupid question.
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post #50 of 1035 Old 02-04-2018, 06:45 AM
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That certainly looks correct to me, assuming your projector is shooting up toward the screen in that configuration or you will be flipping the entire assembly for ceiling mount. Ultimately the height and tilt of the DCR will depend on the vertical projector position and where the beam comes out of the projector.

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post #51 of 1035 Old 02-04-2018, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Kelly View Post
That certainly looks correct to me, assuming your projector is shooting up toward the screen in that configuration or you will be flipping the entire assembly for ceiling mount. Ultimately the height and tilt of the DCR will depend on the vertical projector position and where the beam comes out of the projector.
thank you very much!
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post #52 of 1035 Old 02-07-2018, 12:22 PM
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Is it not practical for this lens to slide out of the way? I'd like full resolution for 16x9 mode when I'm doing computing work.
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post #53 of 1035 Old 02-08-2018, 07:24 AM
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Hi Pultzar,

If your work requires 1:1 pixel mapping then the projector's "normal" mode will show this with the lens in place but with a 25% visible horizontal stretch.

If your work requires seeing 16:9 in that original aspect ratio but you are ok with the resolution downconverted from 3840 to 3072 with full 2160 vertical resolution then the system will do that as well.

If you want the option of both original 16:9 aspect ratio and 1:1 pixel mapping (ie full 3840x2160) then removing the lens means you would need to zoom down and shift the resulting image to fit the screen height. We no longer make the transports because demand went almost to zero when projectors started including 16:9 modes with a fixed lens. However, if you can easily reach the projector/lens then, once it has been fully set up with the settings locked, it only takes about 60 seconds to take off or put back on. You could also then program the lens memory settings to have the projector reformat automatically while you're changing the lens. It's not fully automated but it does offer the option if you need it.

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post #54 of 1035 Old 02-24-2018, 04:02 PM
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I recently acquired the Panamorph DCR lens to go with a Lumagen Radiance Pro and a Sony VW 5000. The process to install the lens is not hard to do yourself. You need to install the lens attachment plate to the projector, mount the DCR lens to the lens bracket and then get the lens to pass the image from the projector through the lens. I did a short word document to show how I installed the plate, which I can provide on request. Getting the lens attached to the lens bracket and properly positioned is a bit more time consuming than the plate, but well explained by the Panamorph instructions. I think you can do both of these tasks in no more than an hour and a half working deliberately.

The Lumagen Pro will output 4096x2160, which the DCR lens is optimized for. Setting up the Pro to work with the DCR lens is very straight forward. I did up another word document to explain the exact steps I used, which I can also provide upon request.

I found the use of the DCR lens as very positive. The Lumagen does a great job of scaling everything to 4096x2160. Using this mode, while watching a 2.39 movie, gives you 2.5 million more pixels than the same movie letterboxed and zoomed at UHD. I find the picture a bit more detailed, not just brighter, as a result.

What is very obvious is the increase in light output for 2.39 movies. This is a big improvement over zooming that anyone can see. About two thirds of the movies I watch each year are 2.39. I find the picture improvement from watching 2.39 movies with the lens than without indispensable.

One last item is how well the lens works with the Lumagen aspect ratio control. Once setup correctly, you just hit a button to access 1.78, 1.85 and 2.40 quickly. No projector moving the lens to do the same thing. The picture is equally bright in every aspect ratio selected, which looks correct and is great for calibration.

The end result of this is a great picture quality no matter the aspect ratio of what I play.
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post #55 of 1035 Old 02-28-2018, 01:10 PM
 
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Red Dawn (remake) is the first 1080p Blu-ray I'm watching through my DCR and I'm NEVER removing this lens off my 885es...

Love it.
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post #56 of 1035 Old 03-02-2018, 04:03 AM
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Seems I've missed the early bird discount for the DCR by a few weeks...
Anybody here who wants to sell the Paladin DCR again?
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post #57 of 1035 Old 03-06-2018, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post
Hi Ash

That pattern is to see the distortions . Ken recommended not to use the zone panel alignment ( just do the basic center point panel alignment ) . Just play with throw distance , angle of the A lens , distance between Sony lens and A lens and if Panamorph has any other adjustment , to minimize distortions
I disagree I had my Sony 885ES calibrated by a certified ISF tech. He used the screen grid to not only align the panels but the focus. He must have aligned over 40 points and it made a great difference in picture quality. However you have to know what you are doing or you can really screw things up
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post #58 of 1035 Old 03-06-2018, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mwiebelhaus View Post
I recently acquired the Panamorph DCR lens to go with a Lumagen Radiance Pro and a Sony VW 5000. The process to install the lens is not hard to do yourself. You need to install the lens attachment plate to the projector, mount the DCR lens to the lens bracket and then get the lens to pass the image from the projector through the lens. I did a short word document to show how I installed the plate, which I can provide on request. Getting the lens attached to the lens bracket and properly positioned is a bit more time consuming than the plate, but well explained by the Panamorph instructions. I think you can do both of these tasks in no more than an hour and a half working deliberately.

The Lumagen Pro will output 4096x2160, which the DCR lens is optimized for. Setting up the Pro to work with the DCR lens is very straight forward. I did up another word document to explain the exact steps I used, which I can also provide upon request.

I found the use of the DCR lens as very positive. The Lumagen does a great job of scaling everything to 4096x2160. Using this mode, while watching a 2.39 movie, gives you 2.5 million more pixels than the same movie letterboxed and zoomed at UHD. I find the picture a bit more detailed, not just brighter, as a result.

What is very obvious is the increase in light output for 2.39 movies. This is a big improvement over zooming that anyone can see. About two thirds of the movies I watch each year are 2.39. I find the picture improvement from watching 2.39 movies with the lens than without indispensable.

One last item is how well the lens works with the Lumagen aspect ratio control. Once setup correctly, you just hit a button to access 1.78, 1.85 and 2.40 quickly. No projector moving the lens to do the same thing. The picture is equally bright in every aspect ratio selected, which looks correct and is great for calibration.

The end result of this is a great picture quality no matter the aspect ratio of what I play.
I just had the DCR lens installed on my Sony 885ES, What a great lens. I had a panamorph lens on a sled on my JVC With the DCR lens in place the picture is much brighter and sharper and easier to use. No need to use a sled the Sony does all the work. I am glad I got the discount otherwise I would be using the smaller lens. The fixed lens is much better.
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post #59 of 1035 Old 03-07-2018, 04:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Kelly View Post
For the same screen size and throw distance VC means you zoom out a lot more with the projector zoom lens so the projector itself puts out more light - around 10% more than HE.
I'm curious about this comment. I may be remembering incorrectly, but every projector calculator I've tried for various projectors, shows the opposite is true. Namely, that you'd get the most lumens out of a projector, at any given size at its maximum zoom. Meaning as close to the screen as possible and projecting the biggest image at that distance that it can. Is that not correct?

If so, then even if a VC lens is better than an HE lens in terms of light restoration for Scope content on a 16:9 projector, you are going to lose out on some lumens vs an HE lens since you'd always use max zoom on that type of lens.

I always assumed that a VC lens would be perfect for a projector whose throw ratio would place it at the precise distance from the screen, such that for your screen size, you are at max zoom. That a lot of variables to consider, but what I calculated at my home is that I'd need a 1.6 throw ratio projector or thereabouts with max zoom.
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post #60 of 1035 Old 03-07-2018, 07:02 PM
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Saying things another way - the larger the image produced by the projector itself from a given throw distance, the more light that comes out of the projector. For HE the projector itself puts out a smaller image - one that just fills the height - so that the HE lens now expands the image to fill the UltraWide screen. For VC the projector itself puts out a larger image - one that fills the width - so that the VC lens now compresses the image to fill the UltraWide screen. So with VC the projector itself puts out a larger image and therefore more light than with HE.

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