Panamorph DCR Paladin Owners Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 1038 Old 03-07-2018, 08:49 PM
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Shawn,
I have a small amount of barrel distortion about a 1/2” on my screen probably due to my being close to the minimum distance ratio 1.41:1. Is there a way using Sony’s calibration software to remove the slight edge overhang? I’m using the 885.

Thanks
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post #62 of 1038 Old 03-08-2018, 07:31 AM
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Yes. The calibration software includes a version of "Panel Alignment" which allows zonal modification of all three colors - so effectively you can morph a test pattern at the edges to correct for edge distortion. I admit that very few do this since masking even 1/2" with the border seems to make any apparent distortion in actual images virtually invisible but it's one more option in your toolbox if you're at the lower end of the throw ratio range. If you need the software send me an email.
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post #63 of 1038 Old 03-08-2018, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know if it me but I find a marked improvement in picture quality when I watch 1080P on the Sony 5000ES using the DCR. I know I am getting added brightness but I feel the picture quality is better/sharper...
I was watching Santana concert 'Corazon' on my K Escape player which I watched a few times before and found the picture to be more vivid - noticed much more of the elements of the picture such as smoke - trombone players in the back etc...
If other users can comment on this I will appreciate.
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post #64 of 1038 Old 03-09-2018, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Kelly View Post
Wow, thanks very much Ash for the many kind words. Seeing your remarks was a great way to start a week!

Some general comments and answers to questions:

Pre-order Shipments: All pre-order units are still scheduled to ship no later than this Wednesday. FedEx will email tracking to the email address used for each order once it’s in their system.

Brightness Enhancement: 38% brightness enhancement should be achieved compared to zooming up a 3840 letterbox image. This includes a factor of about 1.14 from upconversion to 4096 multiplied by a factor of about 1.22- 1.23 or so from the anamorphic process. If you start with 4096 due to the projector already having that mode (ie in Ash’s case he started from “2.35:1 Zoom” at 4096 wide in the Sony) then only the anamorphic enhancement factor will apply (1.25x minus transmission losses).

Horizontal Expansion (Mani): The full width of the 4096 image is all produced by the projector zoom lens itself. That’s part of the setup – first zoom the image out to fill the width. This of course makes the height of the projector image scan onto the wall above and below the screen but then the Paladin vertically compresses this all down to fit into the screen.

Increased Clarity: Ultimately this has always been the goal of anamorphic theater beyond the brightness enhancement but is completely dependent on the maintained clarity through the lens and the quality of upconversion processing. A deficiency in either can compromise the benefits but while we’re proud of the clarity the Paladin provides we’re actually pretty excited about how the algorithms (and processing horsepower) are evolving to take advantage of the extra 2.5+ million pixels (from 3840 letterbox). It is a complex blend of art and science to take full advantage of those pixels but the fact is that they are now there and now provide at least the potential for that much more detail whether real or artificially generated or some combination thereof. Kudos to Sony. It was seeing the processing on the new VPL-VW885ES that inspired the creation of the DCR lens.
I can second everything Shawn says I got the DCR lens a few weeks ago and the clarity of the picture an brightness is like actually like going to the movies. The picture is extremely bright and I don't need the room as dark as I needed with my previous panamorph lens and JVC X-9 projector. The SOny projector works great in conjunction with the DCR lens. The Sony does all the work just push the button and with vertical stretch you get a full screen no black bars. For 16/9 you can use squeeze mode or normal mode up to you.

One thing I learned was about blanking. When the installer set up the projector he used the Sony blanking feature to prevent overscan but that wastes pixels. When I had the ISF tech calibrate my projector he said you should avoid using blanking. Instead he set up the screen with blanking at a minimum basically 1 or 2 compared to 10 or 12.
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post #65 of 1038 Old 03-15-2018, 10:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
I don't know if it me but I find a marked improvement in picture quality when I watch 1080P on the Sony 5000ES using the DCR. I know I am getting added brightness but I feel the picture quality is better/sharper...
I was watching Santana concert 'Corazon' on my K Escape player which I watched a few times before and found the picture to be more vivid - noticed much more of the elements of the picture such as smoke - trombone players in the back etc...
If other users can comment on this I will appreciate.
The human perceptual system is more sensitive to high frequency details the brighter those details are (it's harder to read under moonlight), similar to how turning up the volume on your stereo makes the audio quality seem better. This is why blind speaker tests need to be level-matched.

More lumens, better picture seems to be the answer here. Within reason of course.
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post #66 of 1038 Old 03-15-2018, 11:01 AM
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SET UP QUESTION:

On set up, the the throw get longer or shorter? If I have a 25ft throw to a 14' screen - how does that effect things and will I still be in a sweet zoom range for the Sony 5000?

Show me the calculations, please..

Thanks!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #67 of 1038 Old 03-15-2018, 11:53 AM
 
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One should note that, sensitivity to changes in intensity at any given point varies. We are more sensitive to rapid changes in contrast in our peripheral vision, but more sensitive to spatial frequency in the middle of the fovea. These are not contradictory, since increased sensitivity to smaller deltas in luminance is not necessarily the same as sensitivity to localized changes in intensity (detail), those are mutually orthogonal if not independent.

Meaning, we are for example more sensitive to luma changes in low light conditions, thus requiring displays and content with more bits dedicated to encoding or reproducing darker zones and less bits in brighter zones, to avoid banding. Minimum perceived differences are what PQ - perceptual quantizer HDR standards are based on such measurements, where step sizes for perceivable differences in intensity get larger the higher nits you are trying to show.

It took me a while to reconcile those two facts: sensitivity to the magnitude of intensity changes vs sensitivity to localized but smaller changes seem to be mutually independent and in fact an inverse relationship exists, where one is very high the other is very low and vice versa. This is why one can more easily see RBE on DLP projectors from the corner of your eye, but you only see detail from the middle and that detail extends to blacker areas. The darker the area the more easily you perceive smaller and smaller deltas as they approach black. It seems weird or contradictory but it's true. Fascinating stuff.
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post #68 of 1038 Old 03-15-2018, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
SET UP QUESTION:

On set up, the the throw get longer or shorter? If I have a 25ft throw to a 14' screen - how does that effect things and will I still be in a sweet zoom range for the Sony 5000?

Show me the calculations, please..

Thanks!
That is pretty much my set up 14 foot wide 2:40 Screen (Shawn Kelly recommends 2:40 AR for the DCR) 26 Feet distance... no distortion with this throw and screen size.
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post #69 of 1038 Old 03-16-2018, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
That is pretty much my set up 14 foot wide 2:40 Screen (Shawn Kelly recommends 2:40 AR for the DCR) 26 Feet distance... no distortion with this throw and screen size.

When Shawn Kelly is talking about 2:40 Screen, isnt that tecnically 2:39 physical format for the screen ?

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post #70 of 1038 Old 03-16-2018, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
That is pretty much my set up 14 foot wide 2:40 Screen (Shawn Kelly recommends 2:40 AR for the DCR) 26 Feet distance... no distortion with this throw and screen size.
Good to know. Thanks Ash!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #71 of 1038 Old 03-16-2018, 07:18 AM
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When Shawn Kelly is talking about 2:40 Screen, isnt that tecnically 2:39 physical format for the screen ?
The industry standard for UltraWide movie creation is just over 2.39:1 since 1971 but in reality the industry rounds to 2.4:1 which is not only easier to remember but also makes it easier to determine screen sizing because it's also a 5 (H) x 12 (W) x 13 (D) triangle. You'll mostly see 2.4:1 on the back of the Bluray container although the exact aspect ratio will likely have some variation.

The Paladin lenses are also somewhat adjustable in aspect ratio so all together we recommend 2.4:1 for a best fit for the most popular movies.

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post #72 of 1038 Old 03-16-2018, 10:09 PM
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I don't have the Radiance Pro yet to properly scale scope movies with my RS4500, but just using the Paladin DCR with the anamorphic mode in the RS4500 tonight to mount the lens and kind of check it out, I already have to say that this is the best anamorphic lens I've tried in my 15+ years of home theater ! Even at my short throw of around the minimum 1.41, it's sharp all the way to the edges. Amazing ! Can't wait to use the Radiance Pro for even more resolution, lumens and proper scaling. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 sure looked amazing tonight though ! Already impressed just doing a mock up test run !

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post #73 of 1038 Old 03-17-2018, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony processing is tops... if one chooses to not use the Lumagen Pro - with the DCR and Sony Aspect control and my AVR switching - you get the best of both worlds.
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post #74 of 1038 Old 03-20-2018, 02:26 AM
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Question

Have any of you guys noticed a need to play with your masks with the lens in place? Any loss of a few pixels top or bottom (or barrel distortion, fringing at the edges necessitating a minor change in picture dimensions / aspect ratio whereby you needed to reprogram your masks?

I’m considering a Stewart screen with drop down vertical masks that only allow for 1.78 or 2.35 aspects - rather than a Vistascope with variable masking (and tweaking aspect ratios). So I’m wondering if aspects will still be true with the lens in place as there’s no tweaking the masks with this screen.

ALSO, can the Sony 5000 crop 1.85 to fill a 1.78 space? I’m not planning on a Lumagen (yet).

Thanks!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #75 of 1038 Old 03-20-2018, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Question

Have any of you guys noticed a need to play with your masks with the lens in place? Any loss of a few pixels top or bottom (or barrel distortion, fringing at the edges necessitating a minor change in picture dimensions / aspect ratio whereby you needed to reprogram your masks?

I’m considering a Stewart screen with drop down vertical masks that only allow for 1.78 or 2.35 aspects - rather than a Vistascope with variable masking (and tweaking aspect ratios). So I’m wondering if aspects will still be true with the lens in place as there’s no tweaking the masks with this screen.

ALSO, can the Sony 5000 crop 1.85 to fill a 1.78 space? I’m not planning on a Lumagen (yet).

Thanks!
I have found no need to play with the vertical masks - i might be losing/gaining picture width but it is so minuscule that I don't notice it.

I can attest that if I walk up to the screen a foot away - I can see slight fringing on the last box and certainly on the perimeter all around but if I step back say 4 to 5 feet my old eyes cannot see any fringing.

There is minor minor minor barrel distortion in the internal pattern but it is like splitting hair - cannot see it in the movies.

Interesting .... planning a screen to work around the DCR fixed lens - you are a brave person - what happens when two yers later a projector shows up which is 10,000 lumens and can do AR control/processing?

The screen is the longest lasting piece of the Theater IMHO - even the screen material can be changed.

About blanking - I had my first annoying experience with he DCR last week watching 'Shape Of Water' which is a 2:35 movie expanded to 2:40 - the subtitles when the characters speak Russian were cut into half .... (half on the screen and half on the black velvet)... no way around it...

Shawn could answer on the Sony's capability to crop.

My two cents - the picture with the DCR is awesome - brightness improved most importantly I love the resolution bump and the ease of use.... if one wants perfect internal patterns and uses a magnifying glass you will find issues even at perfect throw like mine.

Lumagen - I don't and will not be using the Lumagen - will steer away from the pack on this one.
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post #76 of 1038 Old 03-24-2018, 10:26 PM
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I have found no need to play with the vertical masks - i might be losing/gaining picture width but it is so minuscule that I don't notice it.

I can attest that if I walk up to the screen a foot away - I can see slight fringing on the last box and certainly on the perimeter all around but if I step back say 4 to 5 feet my old eyes cannot see any fringing.

There is minor minor minor barrel distortion in the internal pattern but it is like splitting hair - cannot see it in the movies.

Interesting .... planning a screen to work around the DCR fixed lens - you are a brave person - what happens when two yers later a projector shows up which is 10,000 lumens and can do AR control/processing?

The screen is the longest lasting piece of the Theater IMHO - even the screen material can be changed.

About blanking - I had my first annoying experience with he DCR last week watching 'Shape Of Water' which is a 2:35 movie expanded to 2:40 - the subtitles when the characters speak Russian were cut into half .... (half on the screen and half on the black velvet)... no way around it...

Shawn could answer on the Sony's capability to crop.

My two cents - the picture with the DCR is awesome - brightness improved most importantly I love the resolution bump and the ease of use.... if one wants perfect internal patterns and uses a magnifying glass you will find issues even at perfect throw like mine.

Lumagen - I don't and will not be using the Lumagen - will steer away from the pack on this one.
The picture with my RS4500 and the DCR lens is amazing even at my short throw of 1.41:1 with this lens. We watched Passengers tonight with the DCR lens - about 44 foot lamberts on my screen - incredible detail I don't recall seeing before. Best A lens hands down I've ever had by a large margin ! My three guests ( regulars who came over this afternoon for the lens / no lens demo ) said keep the lens! They aren't even vidiophiles !
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post #77 of 1038 Old 03-24-2018, 11:03 PM
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Panamorph DCR Paladin Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer;
The picture with my RS4500 and the DCR lens is amazing even at my short throw of 1.41:1 with this lens. We watched Passengers tonight with the DCR lens - about 44 foot lamberts on my screen - incredible detail I don't recall seeing before. Best A lens hands down I've ever had by a large margin ! My three guests ( regulars who came over this afternoon for the lens / no lens demo ) said keep the lens! They aren't even vidiophiles !

Craig,

Are you getting any noticeable geometric distortion? I have almost the exact same throw distance with my 5000 stack.

Since I can’t use lens memory with the stack, I might would consider getting 2 of these lenses to pick up the additional resolution and brightness.

But only if the geometric distortion is basically non existent. I would also have to find out if this would work with my stack, since both projector use a slight amount horizontal lens shift since each unit is just to the left and right of the dead center.

That would take me from 70fL to around 90fL on my 17’ wide Vistascope. And allow me to use the full 4096x2160 chip resolution.


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post #78 of 1038 Old 03-25-2018, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

About blanking - I had my first annoying experience with he DCR last week watching 'Shape Of Water' which is a 2:35 movie expanded to 2:40 - the subtitles when the characters speak Russian were cut into half .... (half on the screen and half on the black velvet)... no way around it...

Shawn could answer on the Sony's capability to crop.
What is the work around here? Or does the Sony have the ability to reposition subtitles like the Oppo BD players do?

This would certainly be an issue with any anamorphic lens but can the projector compensate? Or a Lumagen?

Thanks.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #79 of 1038 Old 03-25-2018, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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That would take me from 70fL to around 90fL on my 17’ wide Vistascope. And allow me to use the full 4096x2160 chip resolution.


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DAYYUMM Chris - 90FTL - I wanted to name my theater 'Dolby Vision' - that would do it (although you are already there with 70FTL).

I would recommend that you don't dwell on the distortion of the DCR and not focus on the patterns - because we don't watch patterns on a daily basis .... In fact I plan to shut down the improvements for a year or so after Adam's and my Video Calibrators visits - want to sit back and enjoy the movies.

And focus back on my other hobby - 'flying'..

If I spent enough time (and my video calibration will be here in April) to touch up the installation of the DCR I can get to 99.99% perfect patterns (from 99.50% today) but is it worth the trouble - anomalies can also happen due to construction and screen install etc as you know - construction is not a perfect pattern.

You and I know God knows how many anomalies your Lumagen is already introducing in your picture .... or the Sony Processing for that matter..

I hate to act like a broken record - but the resolution bump is far more important than the brightness bump - I can now see all the gran in Mad Max Fury road - and the ease of use 'which is very important to me' - watched Interstellar last week without having to deal with shifting AR which Nolan likes.

I think Shawn Kelly offers the lens with a re stocking fee - you could install the two and if you don't like them - can send them back.

I would be very interested to know your observation on the resolution improvement - something Craig is already reporting.
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post #80 of 1038 Old 03-25-2018, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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What is the work around here? Or does the Sony have the ability to reposition subtitles like the Oppo BD players do?

This would certainly be an issue with any anamorphic lens but can the projector compensate? Or a Lumagen?

Thanks.
Because you zoom the Sony in a place and then install the DCR - I am guessing if there is a way to recall another zoom memory on the one time you need to watch subtitles, that can be accomplished - but am sure Shawn Kelly can chime in..
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post #81 of 1038 Old 03-25-2018, 09:51 AM
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Subtitles with anamorphic 2.4:1 cinemas

First – the big picture. If the subtitles are in the Javascript on a BD (ie a "soft subtitle") then certainly players like the Oppo can reposition them. If they are actually in the content (ie a "hard subtitle") then they can't be moved. If a hard subtitle is called for and the director intends for 2.4:1 presentation then they will always be in the 2.4:1 frame and therefore fully visible in an anamorphic cinema - almost universally the case. On the other hand, if any part of such a hard subtitle is in the black bars outside a letterbox frame then the director intended the movie to be presented in a smaller aspect ratio anyway. Some good examples are Christopher Nolan movies where he intentionally framed 2.4:1 segments to be shown with black bars in an otherwise smaller aspect ratio. In any case, it is an extremely rare occurrence to find movies with the primary content made in the 2.4:1 aspect ratio then forced to be shown at a smaller ratio just to fit the subtitles in.

Now where the question of a subtitle work-around comes in is this: The Shape of Water is actually a 1.85:1 movie. Like all 1.85:1 movies we can either watch them complete and with the proper aspect ratio in a 2.4:1 cinema with black filling in on the left and right OR we can have our system fully fill our 2.4:1 screen, still with the proper aspect ratio, while cropping off the top and bottom - 10% each with the Paladin DCR and appropriate anamorphic processing. In many cases we may prefer that cropping since it seems like a minor loss of image content to get the best immersive experience. But if those subtitles are hard then they’ll get cut off and we won’t know what is being said. In such cases the only way to see the entire image in the proper aspect ratio is to go back to watching it at full 1.85:1 in the center of the screen with black on the sides.

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post #82 of 1038 Old 03-25-2018, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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LOL - looks like I watched the entire movie 'Shape Of water' in 2:40 stretched not knowing it is a 1:85 - but look at the bright side - it looked damn good as I only lost 10% of the image but got to watch it in 14 foot wide glory.
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post #83 of 1038 Old 03-25-2018, 11:00 AM
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LOL - looks like I watched the entire movie 'Shape Of water' in 2:40 stretched not knowing it is a 1:85 - but look at the bright side - it looked damn good as I only lost 10% of the image but got to watch it in 14 foot wide glory.
I was going to point that out, but decided not to go there.
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post #84 of 1038 Old 03-25-2018, 11:04 AM
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Craig,

Are you getting any noticeable geometric distortion? I have almost the exact same throw distance with my 5000 stack.

Since I can’t use lens memory with the stack, I might would consider getting 2 of these lenses to pick up the additional resolution and brightness.

But only if the geometric distortion is basically non existent. I would also have to find out if this would work with my stack, since both projector use a slight amount horizontal lens shift since each unit is just to the left and right of the dead center.

That would take me from 70fL to around 90fL on my 17’ wide Vistascope. And allow me to use the full 4096x2160 chip resolution.


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I'm not, which is quite the trick at my short throw. I'm betting I could get even less barrel distortion at the very edges ( which is minimal now ) if I further refined my mounting position.
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post #85 of 1038 Old 03-25-2018, 07:20 PM
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Wondering if with the factory mounting options from Panamorph, does the the XMU kit for example allow for manual sliding when you want to remove it from the light path for 16:9 material? If not do we just use Lumagen's handy looking input modes http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0004_AnamorphicLens.pdf. Craig's got me excited having just ordered my lumagen and seeing his feedback on this unit.
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post #86 of 1038 Old 03-26-2018, 09:30 AM
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Because you zoom the Sony in a place and then install the DCR - I am guessing if there is a way to recall another zoom memory on the one time you need to watch subtitles, that can be accomplished - but am sure Shawn Kelly can chime in..
You can't use zoom memory at all. Doing so, would mean the projector does not return to the exact same spot and now your image will be off, going through the A-lens.
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post #87 of 1038 Old 03-26-2018, 11:17 AM
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I can say that while the DCR lens isn't supposed to improve projector contrast, my demo day " focus group " thought using the lens improved perceived contrast. No doubt due to the increase in brightness.

This screen shot would have been really hard to take without the added brightness -

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Last edited by Craig Peer; 03-26-2018 at 12:11 PM.
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post #88 of 1038 Old 03-26-2018, 03:32 PM
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Ya the brighter image may be described as higher contrast. In the contrast department all this lens can do is reduce ANSI, hopefully not by a perceivable amount!
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post #89 of 1038 Old 03-27-2018, 06:00 AM
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The picture with my RS4500 and the DCR lens is amazing even at my short throw of 1.41:1 with this lens. We watched Passengers tonight with the DCR lens - about 44 foot lamberts on my screen - incredible detail I don't recall seeing before. Best A lens hands down I've ever had by a large margin ! My three guests ( regulars who came over this afternoon for the lens / no lens demo ) said keep the lens! They aren't even vidiophiles !

You guys love to spend my money! I think I'm game on this now. I need to take my RS4500 down to put a different extension pole on my mount. How long does it take to get an XM2 shipped? I could at least prep for it. My additional speakers are higher in the queue for my funds though, so I'll probably delay the lens purchase for a bit.
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post #90 of 1038 Old 03-27-2018, 08:24 AM
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You guys love to spend my money! I think I'm game on this now. I need to take my RS4500 down to put a different extension pole on my mount. How long does it take to get an XM2 shipped? I could at least prep for it. My additional speakers are higher in the queue for my funds though, so I'll probably delay the lens purchase for a bit.
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