Hands-On Review: Sony VPL-VZ1000ES Ultra-Short Throw 4K HDR Home Theater Projector - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 61 Old 02-04-2018, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
price, lol, must be a joke of some sort. hah-ah-ha-aaaah..??

i mean how many will they sell... will it even make financial sense ? maybe someone can compute some numbers... i mean this is even more niche than a curved 80 in oled
It makes some sort of sense if you want something that behaves like a TV and is 100"+ (up to 120" if to give up a bit of brightness). It makes a bit less sense if you can accommodate a regular short throw ceiling-mount 4K laser-phosphor light source projector with an ALR screen, or if an 85" TV suits your needs.

The reality of high-end TVs is that each diagonal inch of screen real estate above 65" comes at a notable premium, which is how the price of a device like this becomes viable.

This projector is not for home theater enthusiasts, Sony has better options for that, namely the VPL-VW885ES if you are dropping $25G. And it's certainly not for someone who would be happy with a 77" OLED like the A1E. Yes, I am intentionally using the Sony products for this comparison, the point being that the company fields a plethora of consumer displays in order to appeal to a wide variety of niche market segments.

This projector is for someone who can afford to watch football on a giant screen that looks like a TV, but is bigger than anything their neighbor has. It's quite exceptional at performing that task.
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post #32 of 61 Old 02-04-2018, 10:26 AM
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Having it in my living room for the big game would be awesome, let alone having it for a couple of weeks to evaluate it. Enjoy.
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post #33 of 61 Old 02-04-2018, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
price, lol, must be a joke of some sort. hah-ah-ha-aaaah..??

i mean how many will they sell... will it even make financial sense ? maybe someone can compute some numbers... i mean this is even more niche than a curved 80 in oled
Sony almost certainly did an extensive analysis on the total available market at this price point before they started development. They've been selling TV's more expensive than this for a while (e.g. their $60k 100 inch LCD).

I can see this unit being attractive to high-end condo owners who can't build out a full home theater, don't want to spend $60k but are looking for the projection experience with a screen size larger than 80 inches. For that market, $25k isn't out of reach. They already spent $15k on a sofa.
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post #34 of 61 Old 02-04-2018, 05:36 PM
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And here's something nice to put it in, kinda slick!

https://www.salamanderdesigns.com/sony/

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post #35 of 61 Old 02-04-2018, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow. Best football experience of my life.
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post #36 of 61 Old 02-05-2018, 07:28 AM
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@imagic

First off, and more importantly, congrats on the win!

Second, you stated it was 2,500 Lumens. But, those brightness measurements you posted don't add up.

It seems you measured off the screen, correct? I calculate about half that for the spec'd brightness.
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post #37 of 61 Old 02-05-2018, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post
@imagic

First off, and more importantly, congrats on the win!

Second, you stated it was 2,500 Lumens. But, those brightness measurements you posted don't add up.

It seems you measured off the screen, correct? I calculate about half that for the spec'd brightness.
Revisiting measurements now... sticking with unity (1.0 gain) for these...

Short answer is what's in my review represents the most conservative number, and it's for calibrated SDR output. But... with an HDR test pattern, and also by feeding it SDR in different modes, I was able to get this projector quite a bit brighter. I mean... a lot brighter actually. 248 nits at unity gain, to be precise, in "Bright TV" mode (i.e. cool color temp) with HDR as the source.

On the SI ST screen the HDR output translates to about 150 nits peak, certainly better that I had indicated. I'll keep hammering away and see if I can find a way to get the maximum brightness out of this thing, but at least we're "in the ballpark" now.

Playing an HDR test pattern in Reference mode got me up to 195 nits (unity gain) and dropped back down to 162 nits (unity gain) in SDR.

SDR in Bright TV mode peaked at 192 nits (unity gain) and 176 nits (unity gain) in Bright Cinema modes, respectively.

I will update the review accordingly.

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post #38 of 61 Old 02-05-2018, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Revisiting measurements now... sticking with unity (1.0 gain) for these...

Short answer is what's in my review represents the most conservative number, and it's for calibrated SDR output. But... with an HDR test pattern, and also by feeding it SDR in different modes, I was able to get this projector quite a bit brighter. I mean... a lot brighter actually. 248 nits at unity gain, to be precise, in "Bright TV" mode (i.e. cool color temp) with HDR as the source.

On the SI ST screen the HDR output translates to about 150 nits peak, certainly better that I had indicated. I'll keep hammering away and see if I can find a way to get the maximum brightness out of this thing, but at least we're "in the ballpark" now.

Playing an HDR test pattern in Reference mode got me up to 195 nits (unity gain) and dropped back down to 162 nits (unity gain) in SDR.

SDR in Bright TV mode peaked at 192 nits (unity gain) and 176 nits (unity gain) in Bright Cinema modes, respectively.

I will update the review accordingly.
Hmmm... those numbers still seem about 15% lower than what it should be at a claimed 2,500 lumens.

And while admittedly I'm not subject matter expert, it should not make a difference if it's SDR or HDR output/test pattern with 100% IRE white field.

Using that 1.0 gain white patch of material, you should be getting ~85 FtL's and 290 Nits.

2,500 Lumens / 29.6 sq ft (surface area of a 100" 16:9 screen) = 85 FtL * 3.43 (1 FtL = ~3.43 Nits) = ~290 Nits.

Then obviously times those numbers by .6 (gain off the SI screen... if it truly is .6 gain) to get 51 FtL's and 174 Nits off the ALR screen.


I would expect more accurate numbers posted from Sony on a high end/$$$ machine like this for calibrated brightness and not "Torch Mode" numbers.
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post #39 of 61 Old 02-05-2018, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post
Hmmm... those numbers still seem about 15% lower than what it should be at a claimed 2,500 lumens.

And while admittedly I'm not subject matter expert, it should not make a difference if it's SDR or HDR output/test pattern with 100% IRE white field.

Using that 1.0 gain white patch of material, you should be getting ~85 FtL's and 290 Nits.

2,500 Lumens / 29.6 sq ft (surface area of a 100" 16:9 screen) = 85 FtL * 3.43 (1 FtL = ~3.43 Nits) = ~290 Nits.

Then obviously times those numbers by .6 (gain off the SI screen... if it truly is .6 gain) to get 51 FtL's and 174 Nits off the ALR screen.

I would expect more accurate numbers posted from Sony on a high end/$$$ machine like this for calibrated brightness and not "Torch Mode" numbers.
Well, for one thing it's a Sony with a 4K sensor, so some of the light output is being "thrown away" when using it with 1:1 pixels for true 16x9 3840 x 2160. If you instead output 4096 x 2160 you'll harvest a bit more light (7% more). So you'd be looking for 270 nits at unity gain for 16x9.

Not sure if it matters, there's about 700 hours on the laser at this point. Would it drop a couple of percentage points in output from it's new, out-of-box peak? I don't have experience to speak of.

Anyhow, at this point I can't spare the time to drill down any further. I'm sure I could get a could more nits out of it and am happy to have eked out a reading within 10% of specifications. The last few % are probably hiding in the details. I appreciate your comments and the new measurements that resulted.

As for the drop in peak luminance for SDR vs. HDR, that behavior is consistent with what I've seen from most TVs, although not necessarily projectors.

Well, sadly the big game is over and I have to go write about other stuff.

This projector is a different value proposition than a home theater projector and should be checked out in person as the raw numbers don't do it justice, especially if you are used to viewing it through the lens of a calibrated home theater. Its behavior in different picture modes is (actually) fairly consistent with how TVs behave, fwiw. It is repeatable and consistent.
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post #40 of 61 Old 02-05-2018, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analog8 View Post
Sony almost certainly did an extensive analysis on the total available market at this price point before they started development. They've been selling TV's more expensive than this for a while (e.g. their $60k 100 inch LCD).

I can see this unit being attractive to high-end condo owners who can't build out a full home theater, don't want to spend $60k but are looking for the projection experience with a screen size larger than 80 inches. For that market, $25k isn't out of reach. They already spent $15k on a sofa.
I am hoping the price on this will drop this year since the new model is out!
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post #41 of 61 Old 02-05-2018, 04:18 PM
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I am hoping the price on this will drop this year since the new model is out!
The $50k model from the year before is still available for $50k, so I wouldn't get my hopes too high.
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post #42 of 61 Old 02-05-2018, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bmaga123 View Post
I am hoping the price on this will drop this year since the new model is out!
The $50k model from the year before is still available for $50k, so I wouldn't get my hopes too high. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]
That doesn't make any sense since the 25k model is superior. With all these other much more affordable UST projectors coming out you would think Sony would become more competitive soon!
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post #43 of 61 Old 02-07-2018, 03:30 PM
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That doesn't make any sense since the 25k model is superior. With all these other much more affordable UST projectors coming out you would think Sony would become more competitive soon!
according to sony website last years 50k laser is twice as bright in terms of light output(5,000 lumens vs. 2,500)
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post #44 of 61 Old 02-14-2018, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by analog8 View Post
I can see this unit being attractive to high-end condo owners who can't build out a full home theater, don't want to spend $60k but are looking for the projection experience with a screen size larger than 80 inches. For that market, $25k isn't out of reach. They already spent $15k on a sofa.
Or for that matter many homeowners who want a projection sized screen without the hassle.

For example, if I wanted to put a projector in my family room it would be about $10K for the projector, another $2K for the screen... and about $10K for remodeling work to run power and HDMI cables to a point on the ceiling, and to mount a hush box with ducting to outside so I don't have to listen to a fan above my head.

Suddenly the price for the UST setup doesn't seem that bad.
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post #45 of 61 Old 02-17-2018, 06:15 PM
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I went to Best Buy and saw it in action, I must say I was more impressed than I thought I would. This beast is awesome!
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post #46 of 61 Old 05-30-2018, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
So here's the gig. I have a VPL-VZ1000ES on-hand, paired with a 100" Screen Innovations Short Throw screen. I've installed it in my living room, right in front of my TV, to see what it's like to use it in that context.

Review is ready, click here...


Sorry, slightly off topic, but how did you mount the 100" screen in front of your TV?
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post #47 of 61 Old 05-31-2018, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, slightly off topic, but how did you mount the 100" screen in front of your TV?
I rigged my own stand

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post #48 of 61 Old 06-05-2018, 05:32 AM
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Did I miss the price of the screen? I'm guessing the price is probably high than a lot of flat panel TV's. ..

Dave
Well the 100" Sony ZD9 costs $60,000 ...
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post #49 of 61 Old 01-11-2019, 01:12 PM
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No upgrade in that space from Sony during CES. IT clearly seems that giant TV (and MicroLED) are the future, not UST. Which probably leaves us with no great and affordable options before 2-3 years.
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post #50 of 61 Old 01-11-2019, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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No upgrade in that space from Sony during CES. IT clearly seems that giant TV (and MicroLED) are the future, not UST. Which probably leaves us with no great and affordable options before 2-3 years.
But Sony always does its projector updates at CEDIA, not CES. Nothing new about that. Sony projector sales are going up, not down. I'd expect to see more action in the UST segment, I think it's just getting started.

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post #51 of 61 Old 01-11-2019, 01:31 PM
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But Sony always does its projector updates at CEDIA, not CES. Nothing new about that. Sony projector sales are going up, not down. I'd expect to see more action in the UST segment, I think it's just getting started.
Well at least the VPL-VZ1000ES was unveiled during CES 2017 and the vaporware LSPX-A1 unveiled during CES 2018. It's going to be hard justifying $25k for a 100-120" UST fairly "soon" when TV start reaching gigantic sizes.
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post #52 of 61 Old 01-11-2019, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Well at least the VPL-VZ1000ES was unveiled during CES 2017 and the vaporware LSPX-A1 unveiled during CES 2018. It's going to be hard justifying $25k for a 100-120" UST fairly "soon" when TV start reaching gigantic sizes.
Depends on where you want to put it... A TV that size is really hard to handle.

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post #53 of 61 Old 01-11-2019, 03:36 PM
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Depends on where you want to put it... A TV that size is really hard to handle.
Yes that's true too. I guess I was mostly talking about my use case where my living room has a high ceiling and a large wall so I'd ideally like a ~100" (ideally 120") screen on the wall, and was crossing my fingers to see a successor to the VPL-VZ1000ES during CES.
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post #54 of 61 Old 01-13-2019, 06:34 AM
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How do the black levels on this compare with an OLED?


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post #55 of 61 Old 04-27-2019, 03:42 PM
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I'll defer to imagic for the OLED comparison as I never owned one, but I'd say a OLED crushes this projector during the day for black and contrast is probably better too. Both are probably close in complete dark, though I've been told HDR is always better on a TV than a projector so the OLED is likely still better.

After a lot of waiting for new UST projectors, I realized that there wouldn't be a magical product that would be 4K with good contrast at a decent price for a while. Given that... I went all in with an open-box version of the Sony VPL-VZ1000ES at Best Buy.
While still very expensive overall, I got it for a significant discount, got the Salamanders Designs cabinet for free and 10% off on the screen. To optimize $$$, I also got a credit card from Best Buy to get 10% cash back which, was not negligible at all given the purchase.

Needless to say, I'm thrilled with the projector! I went for a 110" screen and it just destroys my 10 year-old 46" LED TV (could have gotten a 120" but it would have been a bit of a stretch plus de cabinet would have been a bit too for off the wall for my liking).
I have a lot of light during the day, especially with a large window very close to the projector, so dark scenes are very washed out during the day with the curtains opened, but it looks great when closed or with a more moderate amount of lights. For other use cases when the scenes are bright (sports, TV, most games), the quality is amazing regardless of the amount of light getting in. And of course, in the dark it looks great no matter what. Watching Game of Thrones on this is a real treat!

I'm attaching a couple of photos in various light conditions so that you can get an idea.

I kept my previous TV for almost 10 years, I'm hoping to keep this one for the next 5-10 years, until MicroLED solutions like The Wall becomes a reality for consumers for a decent price.
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post #56 of 61 Old 04-28-2019, 10:02 AM
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I'll defer to imagic for the OLED comparison as I never owned one, but I'd say a OLED crushes this projector during the day for black and contrast is probably better too. Both are probably close in complete dark, though I've been told HDR is always better on a TV than a projector so the OLED is likely still better.

After a lot of waiting for new UST projectors, I realized that there wouldn't be a magical product that would be 4K with good contrast at a decent price for a while. Given that... I went all in with an open-box version of the Sony VPL-VZ1000ES at Best Buy.
While still very expensive overall, I got it for a significant discount, got the Salamanders Designs cabinet for free and 10% off on the screen. To optimize $$$, I also got a credit card from Best Buy to get 10% cash back which, was not negligible at all given the purchase.

Needless to say, I'm thrilled with the purchase! I went for a 110" screen and it just destroys my 10 year-old 46" LED TV (could have gotten a 120" but it would have been a bit of a stretch plus de cabinet would have been a bit too for off the wall for my liking).
I have a lot of light during the day, especially with a large window very close to the projector, so dark scenes are very washed out during the day with the curtains opened, but it looks great when closed or with a more moderate amount of lights. For other uses cases when the scenes are bright (sports, TV, most games), the quality is amazing regardless of the amount of light getting in. And of course, in the dark it looks great no matter what. Watching Game of Thrones on this is a real treat!

I'm attaching a couple of photos in various light conditions so that you can get an idea.

I kept my previous TV for almost 10 years, I'm hoping to keep this one for the next 5-10 years, until MicroLED solutions like The Wall becomes a reality for consumers for a decent price.
Good photos there! A couple of questions spring to mind after viewing the photos.

In the darkened room photo is that blue ambient light coming from behind the screen, or is it just an effect of taking the photo in low light?

What are the orb-shaped speakers? Is it a stereo setup, or is there a hidden center channel in the cabinet below the screen?

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post #57 of 61 Old 04-28-2019, 01:48 PM
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good photos there! A couple of questions spring to mind after viewing the photos.

In the darkened room photo is that blue ambient light coming from behind the screen, or is it just an effect of taking the photo in low light?
There is indeed a light strip behind the screen. My place is full of Philips Hue lights, so I wanted something similar behind the screen too.

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what are the orb-shaped speakers? Is it a stereo setup, or is there a hidden center channel in the cabinet below the screen?
These are the Phantom from Devialet. They're wireless stereo speakers that sound amazing. My neighbor often texts me when I play and there's a scene where the bass goes crazy (like during a shooting in Red Dead Redemption 2 ).
If you're curious:
I had read a lot about them, but this is the review that convinced to pull the trigger after keeping them in my cart for over a week without daring to click "confirm".

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how long have you been addicted to kellogg's special k?
Haha not that long actually, but I do like the dried strawberries in them.
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post #58 of 61 Old 04-28-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubur View Post
There is indeed a light strip behind the screen. My place is full of Philips Hue lights, so I wanted something similar behind the screen too.



These are the Phantom from Devialet. They're wireless stereo speakers that sound amazing. My neighbor often texts me when I play and there's a scene where the bass goes crazy (like during a shooting in Red Dead Redemption 2 ).
If you're curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6ERMA_5xE
I had read a lot about them, but this is the review that convinced to pull the trigger after keeping them in my cart for over a week without daring to click "confirm".



Haha not that long actually, but I do like the dried strawberries in them.
Good video, and the guy is funny, too. As for the speaker, it reminds me of a character in the old HALO game called 343 Guilty Spark. And, hey, did you know that dried strawberries can be addictive? There's an SA support group if you need it.

Philips Hue is pretty cool. At home we use an LED strip which is all "white light". Can't remember if it 5K color temp. or 6.5K color temp. Anyway, the idea is that with the white light around the screen your eyes can continue to see full range color for an extended period. That's in contrast to watching the bright picture in a darkened room which causes your eyes to damp down both color and brightness to some extent.
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post #59 of 61 Old 05-08-2019, 05:18 AM
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General question to all the users :

Is it possible to get a bigger picture than 120" for example 175-180" WIDE ?
And what would this do to the picture brightness etc.?

Best Regards dirk
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post #60 of 61 Old 05-08-2019, 12:36 PM
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Yes, But ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk44 View Post
General question to all the users :

Is it possible to get a bigger picture than 120" for example 175-180" WIDE ?
And what would this do to the picture brightness etc.?

Best Regards dirk
You may need an actual movie theater 4K projector to achieve a really good result, and a perfectly matched screen to go with it.

A projector emits a certain maximum amount of light. When that light is spread over, say, an 80-inch screen it can definitely achieve a nice, bright image. Expand that to a larger screen and you still have the same total amount of light, but now it's spread over a larger area so it won't look as bright. Expand that again to go beyond the usual recommended maximum of 120-inch screen and you can see that the image on a 175-180 inch screen would be obviously less bright. Thus, a professional grade projector and screen may be required.

By the way, screen size is usually based on the diagonal corner-to-corner measurement, not the actual WIDTH of the screen.
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