Dolby wants to restrict Dolby tracks to only the Dolby Surround upmixer - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 26 Old 05-30-2018, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Dolby wants to restrict Dolby tracks to only the Dolby Surround upmixer

Looks like Dolby wants to restrict the ways you can upmix Dolby tracks (2.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc.). They want to restrict it in the way that you can ONLY use the Dolby Surround upmixer on Dolby tracks instead of also Neural:X and Auro-Matic (like it is now).

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post #2 of 26 Old 05-31-2018, 08:46 AM
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This isn't good news. Hopefully it doesn't happen. I like choices too.
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post #3 of 26 Old 05-31-2018, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
This isn't good news. Hopefully it doesn't happen. I like choices too.

Can you work around this by decoding to PCM in the player? I think that would bypass any upmixer restrictions.




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post #4 of 26 Old 05-31-2018, 10:45 AM
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Muddyfunsters! Dolby Vision not making enough headway then or something?
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post #5 of 26 Old 05-31-2018, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post
Can you work around this by decoding to PCM in the player? I think that would bypass any upmixer restrictions.




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Depends on the AVR/Processor.
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post #6 of 26 Old 06-01-2018, 08:35 AM
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The Apple TV currently provides ONLY PCM for my ripped movies so I can use any up-mixer I want to use. Even if Dolby does this, someone will create a “ work around”!
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post #7 of 26 Old 06-01-2018, 01:16 PM
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My Theta Digital Casablanca IVa has an "Upmix" mode which automatically upmixes Dolby to Dolby and DTS to DTS; and you can in the settings menu set whether other non Dolby/DTS formats are upmized to Dolby or DTS modes. So this isn't an issue for me. Plus, for us "audiophiles", I would think that if you convert Dolby Digital to DTS, or vice-versa, that sure you get the upmixed channels, but you would also get more conversion of the base channels which could well lead to some perceivable sonic degradation!

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post #8 of 26 Old 06-02-2018, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
My Theta Digital Casablanca IVa has an "Upmix" mode which automatically upmixes Dolby to Dolby and DTS to DTS; and you can in the settings menu set whether other non Dolby/DTS formats are upmized to Dolby or DTS modes. So this isn't an issue for me. Plus, for us "audiophiles", I would think that if you convert Dolby Digital to DTS, or vice-versa, that sure you get the upmixed channels, but you would also get more conversion of the base channels which could well lead to some perceivable sonic degradation!

I can do that in my Trinnov as well and Datasat also. But the question is will Dolby insist that Theta, Trinnov, et all disable that capability?
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post #9 of 26 Old 06-02-2018, 04:44 AM
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This doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Basically Dolby is saying that if you have a device that decodes a dolby input, you can only upmix it using dolby atmos not a competing upmixer. This works out great for me as I find the dolby upmixer to be the best anyway.

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post #10 of 26 Old 06-02-2018, 06:22 AM
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When I use a 5.1 channel movie, I have simple desires:

1. The upmix needs to sound good (better than the 5.1 version) - you don't want dialogue to be less intelligible than before. You basically want a little more "fill" between front and rear speakers and some upper speaker ambiance. That's all you can really get anyway since these systems can't make new discreet channels,

2. It needs to upmix automatically (I am not pushing more buttons). To this end I prefer that the "auto" selection of upmix is based on my predefined preference. Auto-selection is CRITICAL to the end user experience because otherwise these modes just won't be used. Having an extra button for anything will leave 90% of consumers in the dust. I pretty much NEVER care about the upmix of a movie so much that I am going to flip through upmix options and see what is "Best". Many people don't even know they have an upmix option or if its being used. The average consumer just wants to hear stuff from the ceiling and they don't want to pick a mode.

3. I would hope to use as many speakers as are installed. (in my case that's around 17 channels). It just "feels" better to know that you aren't wasting all those channels most of the time and no matter where you are in the room, you have immersion. it's annoying that for whatever reason atmos does not use the wide speakers that I have installed...
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-02-2018, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
I would hope to use as many speakers as are installed.

Me too!!! Which, for me, dictates what up mixer I will use for movies. For music, Auro, even not using all of the speakers, is the better choice so that is my up-mixer default.

To that end, I don't want Dolby, or anyone else, telling me what I can or can not use for an up-mixer!!
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post #12 of 26 Old 06-02-2018, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Me too!!! Which, for me, dictates what up mixer I will use for movies. For music, Auro, even not using all of the speakers, is the better choice so that is my up-mixer default.

To that end, I don't want Dolby, or anyone else, telling me what I can or can not use for an up-mixer!!
Yeah after watching that video I just re-tried DSU with center channel spread on some music and auro3d just does better. It still feels like the stereo part is intact without too much random spread. It is a good increase in ambience without distraction. DSU does have some nice features such as loudness management which would be nice to have on auro-3d as well.

It is frustrating to have various features and not being able to mix and match them a bit more.

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post #13 of 26 Old 06-02-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
Yeah after watching that video I just re-tried DSU with center channel spread on some music and auro3d just does better. It still feels like the stereo part is intact without too much random spread. It is a good increase in ambience without distraction. DSU does have some nice features such as loudness management which would be nice to have on auro-3d as well.

It is frustrating to have various features and not being able to mix and match them a bit more.
If you are not already doing so with AuroMatic for music, make all speakers large except L & R. If not, then the bass from L&R gets sent to all speakers and it really does not sound correct. Set high pass filters on the other speakers or make the target curve on them such that it accomplishes the same thing. Let me know what you think after doing so.

Actually, there is a capability/slider (Strength) in Auro that does increase or decrease the volume of all of the non L+R speakers.



In my room, between 9 and 11 works the best, depending on the music. In a larger room, you may need to go higher. I set it to max and then reduce it until I can not hear the effect at all. Then I toggle the Bypass selector and the entire image collapses to the front of the room. Lastly, I set the AuroMatic Preset to "Small" otherwise it seems to make hard center images a bit larger than they should be, for example, voices. This last hint came from Adam and I really like what it did.
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post #14 of 26 Old 06-03-2018, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
If you are not already doing so with AuroMatic for music, make all speakers large except L & R. If not, then the bass from L&R gets sent to all speakers and it really does not sound correct. Set high pass filters on the other speakers or make the target curve on them such that it accomplishes the same thing. Let me know what you think after doing so.

Actually, there is a capability/slider (Strength) in Auro that does increase or decrease the volume of all of the non L+R speakers.



In my room, between 9 and 11 works the best, depending on the music. In a larger room, you may need to go higher. I set it to max and then reduce it until I can not hear the effect at all. Then I toggle the Bypass selector and the entire image collapses to the front of the room. Lastly, I set the AuroMatic Preset to "Small" otherwise it seems to make hard center images a bit larger than they should be, for example, voices. This last hint came from Adam and I really like what it did.
I think I understood all that except the making speakers "large" part. What constitutes large here, a full range signal?

my main left and right are already set to a a crossover point above 100hz since they are specialty horns and really function more like satellites. I think that should do the trick already with the rest of my surround speakers currently set to 80hz or so. What should crossover point be on the center channel - also around 80hz?

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post #15 of 26 Old 06-03-2018, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
I think I understood all that except the making speakers "large" part. What constitutes large here, a full range signal?

my main left and right are already set to a a crossover point above 100hz since they are specialty horns and really function more like satellites. I think that should do the trick already with the rest of my surround speakers currently set to 80hz or so. What should crossover point be on the center channel - also around 80hz?
You want no bass management for those speakers so if they are set to large, there should be no bass management applied (at least that is the way it worked on my RS20i but Adam set that up on my Altitude 16).

Given the center channel is to be set to large as well, there should be no crossover frequency.

Th objective is to insure no speakers but the L+R have bass management applied.
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post #16 of 26 Old 06-03-2018, 03:53 PM
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You want no bass management for those speakers so if they are set to large, there should be no bass management applied (at least that is the way it worked on my RS20i but Adam set that up on my Altitude 16).

Given the center channel is to be set to large as well, there should be no crossover frequency.

Th objective is to insure no speakers but the L+R have bass management applied.
ok so pretty much an entire preset is required just for auro3d to function correctly.

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post #17 of 26 Old 06-03-2018, 06:06 PM
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ok so pretty much an entire preset is required just for auro3d to function correctly.
Correct!
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post #18 of 26 Old 06-04-2018, 12:45 PM
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Tangential to the topic, but I have to comment on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
The upmix needs to sound good (better than the 5.1 version) - you don't want dialogue to be less intelligible than before. You basically want a little more "fill" between front and rear speakers and some upper speaker ambiance. That's all you can really get anyway since these systems can't make new discreet channels...

Maybe not, but it can sure sound like they can.

I recently watched Straight Outta Compton with the DTS:X Neural X upmixing, and the helicopter fly-around in the opening sequence was close to as good use of the heights that I've heard.

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post #19 of 26 Old 06-04-2018, 04:27 PM
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Tangential to the topic, but I have to comment on this.




Maybe not, but it can sure sound like they can.

I recently watched Straight Outta Compton with the DTS:X Neural X upmixing, and the helicopter fly-around in the opening sequence was close to as good use of the heights that I've heard.
I too am a DTS Neural : X fan.
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post #20 of 26 Old 06-06-2018, 06:22 AM
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I too am a DTS Neural : X fan.
each of the upmixers seem to be decent for some situations and for movies I don't feel that strongly about any one of them being too good or bad. Once the upmix is in effect, there is general fill coming in from everywhere and really I just stop paying attention if I'm honest with my self. I am not usually being a nitpicking "audiophile" when it comes to the soundfield.

I think the biggest issue for me is which one I like more for music. This is where it seems like auro3d seems to get the best and most consistent results without being distracting or making the sound workse.
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post #21 of 26 Old 06-06-2018, 08:18 AM
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each of the upmixers seem to be decent for some situations and for movies I don't feel that strongly about any one of them being too good or bad. Once the upmix is in effect, there is general fill coming in from everywhere and really I just stop paying attention if I'm honest with my self. I am not usually being a nitpicking "audiophile" when it comes to the soundfield.

I think the biggest issue for me is which one I like more for music. This is where it seems like auro3d seems to get the best and most consistent results without being distracting or making the sound workse.
That makes sense. I pretty much never listen to music in my home theater though, unless it's part of a movie sound track in a musical. The times I have sat down and listened to music in my theater, I've used the source direct setting.
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post #22 of 26 Old 06-06-2018, 11:20 AM
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For my 2 channel in my audio/home theater room most vocal stuff I listen in 2 channel only with my Theta Casablanca IVA SSP, but most jazz stuff now I am listening in DTS Neural X but with the center speaker turned "Off" so that the front end is close to identical to the stereo front end, and with other speakers giving the effect of more ambience and being there at the live concert!

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post #23 of 26 Old 06-06-2018, 01:12 PM
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I hope this does not happen, With Lexicon back in the game they have the best up mixer in the business with Logic7 and I'd want to use Logic7 on any audio coming in and out of my system

The new version of Logic7 in the MC-10 will take stereo and multi channel and upmix to 12 channels and do real time frequency steering on them.
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post #24 of 26 Old 06-07-2018, 08:48 AM
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I too am a DTS Neural : X fan.

Another big point in its favor is the ability to use Wides, which are not available with DSU.

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post #25 of 26 Old 06-07-2018, 08:55 AM
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Another big point in its favor is the ability to use Wides, which are not available with DSU.
I like my wide speakers. My theater is wide - and they help provide a great front sound stage.
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post #26 of 26 Old 06-07-2018, 09:34 AM
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OK,
I am doing my best to try and understand this. A lot of my BR are DTS-MA. Is it the new rule that I can not use the DSU on a disk like this and I would use the DTS:X upmixer? And if I had a TRUHD movie like the new Tomb Raider that is a Blu Ray, and I waned the upixer then I have to use the DSU? If it's Atmos or DTS:X to begin with then I am guessing this could be a non issue. It's all getting to confusing for me now.

Let me ask it this way. Interstellar 4k is mixed with a DTS-MA audio track. Is the new rule that I can only use the DTS:X up-mixer on it and not the DSU one? Well, if that's what it means then I guess I will just have to get used to it. I don't see a problem with that because that's what I was going to do anyway.

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