SONY VPL-VW870ES VPL-VW995ES 4K Laser Projector | Anticipation Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1307Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 06:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,518
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2965 Post(s)
Liked: 2181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
How do we know Sony definitely won't enable the iris? There may be something coming from the competition that will level the playing field as it currently stands, and the 760 will need a little additional USP or performance advantage to stay relevant.... ?
Far be it for me to argue against it - I'd love to see it implemented on the 760, but I think if we all look rationally at it, it simply isn't going to happen. Sony are more likely to offer a 770ES next year with a dynamic iris to create an upgrade path.

The way they are probably looking at the market, they're offering the only native 4K laser projector at the price point. Now if JVC step up and stick a laser on their next X9xxx/RS6xx series with a native 4K chip, that would have potential to upset the apple-cart. But even then, I still suspect Sony would rather release a new model, than release free enhancements to an existing one. Its just business sense.
Wookii is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 06:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
christoffeldg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,375
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1310 Post(s)
Liked: 526
Well, look at what happened to the JVC X ranges. The X5/7/9 ranges have been the same thing with many updates that could've been done in firmware. With the competition having tested the market of projector owners to see what they can get away with, I can see why Sony would want to use a similar business model. If you bought an X9000 at release date back in 2016 (Not even that long ago!) for 9k and you wanted HDR from the projector, you're basically forced to upgrade AGAIN very soon after.

I'm wondering, have these JVC X range projectors had ANY firmware update whatsoever?

Honestly, that business model really does anger me quite a bit. It's really waiting it out, and hope they're going to come up with some "THIS IS REALLY THE FINAL VERSION I SWEAR" model, that doesn't stab you in the back after 6 months.
Archibald1 likes this.

Video: Sony VPL-VW760ES, Elite screen Aeon 135" Cinewhite + JVC X7900, Magicscreen Reference ALR 120"
Speakers: Bowers and Wilkins 802 D3 front, JBL 580, JBL 520c, JBL 550p
Amplifiers: Lyngdorf stereo TDAI 2170, Lyngdorf SDA 2400, Denon 4300H Home Theatre
Equipment: PC/PS4/Xbox One/Switch/Synology 2415+
christoffeldg is offline  
post #33 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 06:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,135
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1919 Post(s)
Liked: 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Far be it for me to argue against it - I'd love to see it implemented on the 760, but I think if we all look rationally at it, it simply isn't going to happen. Sony are more likely to offer a 770ES next year with a dynamic iris to create an upgrade path.
One would hope that any 770/780 in 18 months time would have far more in addition to offer than just an iris. So not doing it for the 760 now still isn't going to impinge on the upgrade path if you ask me.
They did it with the 520 when the 550 came out. It didn't stop people buying a 550 as the 520 was discontinued when the 550 appeared, but current owners weren't left with a bitter taste in their mouths thinking they had bought a quickly superseded dud. The only real world advantage the 550 had over the 520 was better HDMI interface, and as we all know, the supposed advantage of 4K 60hz HDR ended up being a massive white elephant as the onboard processing wasn't improved alongside the input interface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
The way they are probably looking at the market, they're offering the only native 4K laser projector at the price point. Now if JVC step up and stick a laser on their next X9xxx/RS6xx series with a native 4K chip, that would have potential to upset the apple-cart. But even then, I still suspect Sony would rather release a new model, than release free enhancements to an existing one. Its just business sense.
Don't agree entirely, there is still no reason for a company with Sony's general reputation to rest on their laurels with a half baked product, good as it may be in its current form.
To me it makes more business sense to keep the myriad of current owners happy that they are being supported, so they are more likely to upgrade to the same brand in future, rather than to jump to the good ship JVC or similar.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
Archibald1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 06:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,135
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1919 Post(s)
Liked: 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Honestly, that business model really does anger me quite a bit. It's really waiting it out, and hope they're going to come up with some "THIS IS REALLY THE FINAL VERSION I SWEAR" model, that doesn't stab you in the back after 6 months.
Same here.
If the 760 can perform better than it is with very little effort, I think it is the manufacturers duty to get that unit to operate to its maximum potential. Anything less is just trying to fuel an endless upgrade cycle and is criminal profiteering (in my view).

I would still upgrade in the future if they update my current unit whilst it is still on sale as I would be happier and more loyal knowing that they do such things and it makes one more at ease maybe spending more down the line as you won't feel like you will be left behind in any way.

Contrast that with the bitter taste of spending 15k and then finding that it is forgotten within 8 months and the only way to get the best out of what you already have is to hack it, or you have to replace what you have with the next model with half a new feature they could have easily included on the old model.

How is that helping anything? So wasteful from a manufacturing perspective too.
Hopefully the mountain of plastic that is killing our world will force laws to come about that mean manufacturers HAVE to make what they churn out last as long as possible! You know like back when our Trinitron CRT TV lasted the best part of two decades with nothing superseding it except screen sizes.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
Archibald1 is offline  
post #35 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 06:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,518
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2965 Post(s)
Liked: 2181
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Well, look at what happened to the JVC X ranges. The X5/7/9 ranges have been the same thing with many updates that could've been done in firmware. With the competition having tested the market of projector owners to see what they can get away with, I can see why Sony would want to use a similar business model. If you bought an X9000 at release date back in 2016 (Not even that long ago!) for 9k and you wanted HDR from the projector, you're basically forced to upgrade AGAIN very soon after.

I'm wondering, have these JVC X range projectors had ANY firmware update whatsoever?

Honestly, that business model really does anger me quite a bit. It's really waiting it out, and hope they're going to come up with some "THIS IS REALLY THE FINAL VERSION I SWEAR" model, that doesn't stab you in the back after 6 months.
I must admit, I don't like the strategy either, but its been used in the electronics industry for a very long time now, and to an extent its our own fault ('our' as in consumers). We all crane after, and eagerly await, the latest and greatest new 'thing' (just look at this thread already), so in a competitive situation, manufacturers are driven to release new models with an ever increasing frequency just to stay relevant, in the press, and on the buyers radar.

Sales quantities don't necessarily increase with it, and so the R&D budget doesn't increase with it either, so the manufacturers are then forced to squeeze a greater and greater number of models out of the same platform/generation. Before you know it, they actually plan for that scenario, and phase in changes and improvements with each new model that they've had in the pipeline since day one, or developed shortly after release and could easily apply to the current model.

Its a shame for sure, but its widely done. The PC component industry has been doing it for a lot longer, and has it down to a fine art.
Wookii is offline  
post #36 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 07:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,135
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1919 Post(s)
Liked: 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Its a shame for sure, but its widely done. The PC component industry has been doing it for a lot longer, and has it down to a fine art.
But PCs are by definition hackable and customisable which projectors don't tend to be. Or at least no one seems to be willing to try.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
Archibald1 is offline  
post #37 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 07:26 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,198
Mentioned: 238 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12302 Post(s)
Liked: 9919
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
By that logic, the 550 should not produce a higher contrast image than the 760, but it does. They have a lower model in the 550 that outperforms the model above by some margin, therefore it doesn't make sense. The laser engine alone might be deemed by them to be the major step up but if the picture produced is inferior contrast wise then again, we are at the mercy of the marketing suits. Also, the laser in the 760 is essentially just a more stable light source that allows a moderately higher colour volume.

The dual laser, higher lumens and better lens are the USP and step up for the new model, and the current one could and should be boosted a little software wise to widen the gap between the 550 and itself and with all the new features on the new model, the 760 won't eat into that market anyway due to the cost difference.
They will sell fewer 870's than 760's, so why not boost the 760 a bit to allow it to reach its full potential? It still will not affect the market the new model will be in as it still won't close the performance gap enough to do so. People who can afford the new model will not want the 760 as it will still be a lower performing model than the new one. But by the same token, owners of the 760 will rejoice in Sony giving them a nice little boost to get the machine working as it can and should do.

JVC have apparently sold way more Z1's than they ever thought. Imagine the backlash if they had taken the line of 'well it is selling great so nothing needs fixing'.
They have stepped up and applied numerous performance tweaks and enhancements to that model. Good on them!!

Also, the 760 has sold well because it was the only 'affordable' native laser 4K model around at the time and also due to the unusually moderate cost in the UK (amazing in itself!).
Saying it is selling well because its performance is good enough, is not correct. There was simply no alternative if you wanted 4K motionflow and decent lumens.



Tell me about it!
The difference however being, that graphics cards can be (and are) readily modded/hacked by the enthusiast fraternity. People can subsequently alter the BIOS/UEFI and activate features after purchase if they are prepared to take the risk.
The same cannot be said for AV kit where you are entirely at the mercy of manufacturers for any improvements and updates.

Also Quadro cards have optimised pipelines for CAD etc, which is also why the new Volta architecture has not come to Gaming as it is heavily optimised at the hardware level for AI and data centres and suchlike.
Pascal is still where it is at for gaming.



Only 18 more sleeps!
Not when you look at the marketing contrast specs.
885: ∞: 1 dynamic contrast range
675: 350000:1 dynamic contrast range

That is what most people are going to look at.

On my RS4500 I was perfectly fine with it's contrast performance, vs my RS600. Natively I was getting 24,000:1 on the RS4500. Around 80,000:1 with dynamic dimming and full fade to black. I don't think a laser projector has to beat the lamp based numbers (though I wish it would), I think it just has to provide a better overall experience. So lower native than the lamp based, but with a good dimming system and full fade to black can do it. So if Sony can improve the dimming system, it will just make a good projector even better.
Archibald1 likes this.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #38 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 07:34 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,198
Mentioned: 238 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12302 Post(s)
Liked: 9919
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
No it's not about criticism on the VW885ES.

I am just against using too many mechnical components, these are susceptible to wear and tear, and also of course need speed to perform well, which causes noise. I find laser dimming a far more elegant solution for this kind of thing. Of course, having a manual aperature is a good idea, I just don't understand why you would want a dynamic one.
Yep, I would rather have a manual iris. That way you could use a higher laser power and get better native contrast. Though I would like to see the laser dimming system offer a higher dynamic contrast ratio. Sony could always offer two settings, one a little more aggressive, for those that want it.
Archibald1 likes this.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #39 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 07:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,135
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1919 Post(s)
Liked: 1055
@Mike Garrett

I agree, enable the manual iris (doesn't have to be dynamic) and update/optimise the laser dimming algorithm. That would be enough and both are most likely easily doable and would be most welcome.

Then bring on the new models for our delectation.

In fact if they do improve the current 760, then as the new features would help it keep more of its value on the pre-loved market, we would be even more likely to upgrade even once the improvements are in place!

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
Archibald1 is offline  
post #40 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 10:01 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,295
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2557 Post(s)
Liked: 2236
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Well, look at what happened to the JVC X ranges. The X5/7/9 ranges have been the same thing with many updates that could've been done in firmware. With the competition having tested the market of projector owners to see what they can get away with, I can see why Sony would want to use a similar business model. If you bought an X9000 at release date back in 2016 (Not even that long ago!) for 9k and you wanted HDR from the projector, you're basically forced to upgrade AGAIN very soon after.

I'm wondering, have these JVC X range projectors had ANY firmware update whatsoever?

Honestly, that business model really does anger me quite a bit. It's really waiting it out, and hope they're going to come up with some "THIS IS REALLY THE FINAL VERSION I SWEAR" model, that doesn't stab you in the back after 6 months.
Just the nature of technology and business. Even OLEDs are seeing notable year to year improvements in various areas (more nits, better tone mapping, calibration abilities, etc.) Regarding the JVCs, there are some relatively easy workarounds to essentially make a 2016 model like a 2018 with the help of an HDFury product for HDR/Arve curves and auto iris ability on HDR (or easier yet, one could go with the Panasonic 820). The difference between eshift 4 and 5 is not noteworthy. No JVC owner with a 2016 should be sweating over not having a 2018 model.
Archibald1 likes this.
DavidHir is online now  
post #41 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 10:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
christoffeldg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,375
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1310 Post(s)
Liked: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Well, look at what happened to the JVC X ranges. The X5/7/9 ranges have been the same thing with many updates that could've been done in firmware. With the competition having tested the market of projector owners to see what they can get away with, I can see why Sony would want to use a similar business model. If you bought an X9000 at release date back in 2016 (Not even that long ago!) for 9k and you wanted HDR from the projector, you're basically forced to upgrade AGAIN very soon after.

I'm wondering, have these JVC X range projectors had ANY firmware update whatsoever?

Honestly, that business model really does anger me quite a bit. It's really waiting it out, and hope they're going to come up with some "THIS IS REALLY THE FINAL VERSION I SWEAR" model, that doesn't stab you in the back after 6 months.
Just the nature of technology and business. Even OLEDs are seeing notable year to year improvements in various areas (more nits, better tone mapping, calibration abilities, etc.) Regarding the JVCs, there are some relatively easy workarounds to essentially make a 2016 model like a 2018 with the help of an HDFury product for HDR/Arve curves and auto iris ability on HDR (or easier yet, one could go with the Panasonic 820). The difference between eshift 4 and 5 is not noteworthy. No JVC owner with a 2016 should be sweating over not having a 2018 model.
The game mode however... . Impossible to improve that in the original.

Video: Sony VPL-VW760ES, Elite screen Aeon 135" Cinewhite + JVC X7900, Magicscreen Reference ALR 120"
Speakers: Bowers and Wilkins 802 D3 front, JBL 580, JBL 520c, JBL 550p
Amplifiers: Lyngdorf stereo TDAI 2170, Lyngdorf SDA 2400, Denon 4300H Home Theatre
Equipment: PC/PS4/Xbox One/Switch/Synology 2415+
christoffeldg is offline  
post #42 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
We're Nuts About AV
 
ARROW-AV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,363
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4002 Post(s)
Liked: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
The Dual Laser point is a surprise - though I will still wait for Nigel to get full confirmation that it is actually Red/Blue, rather than just 2 x blue modules, my gut suspects the latter.

The rest of it is not really a surprise though; they needed to fill the gap between the 5000ES and the 760ES, so what better to do than to take the 760ES, add the better lens from the 5000ES, double up the laser modules to provide more light output, and add a DI so that the RS4500 does not have any obvious paper advantage.
You could be right; however, many of the SONY projectors with the Z-Phosphor laser light source, as per the SONY 885/760ES, in fact already incorporate multiple blue laser diodes. And as it happens the JVC RS4500/Z1 contains 48. This is why I think that "dual laser" might refer to something other than simply doubling the number of blue laser diodes
.
ARROW-AV is offline  
post #43 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 12:07 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,295
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2557 Post(s)
Liked: 2236
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
The game mode however... . Impossible to improve that in the original.
I don't game so I was not even thinking about that, but yes, that is a biggie for gamers.
DavidHir is online now  
post #44 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
We're Nuts About AV
 
ARROW-AV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,363
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4002 Post(s)
Liked: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Not when you look at the marketing contrast specs.
885: ∞: 1 dynamic contrast range
675: 350000:1 dynamic contrast range

That is what most people are going to look at.
We can expect precisely the same "∞: 1" to be featuring in the technical information for the new SONY 870/???ES next to "contrast" which is why I'm packing my equipment and will be endeavouring to take some proper measurements whilst at IFA and/or CEDIA to find out what is the actual peak ON/OFF contrast performance with video content

Lygren likes this.
ARROW-AV is offline  
post #45 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 03:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 7,984
Mentioned: 479 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6891 Post(s)
Liked: 6579
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
We can expect precisely the same "∞: 1" to be featuring in the technical information for the new SONY 870/???ES next to "contrast" which is why I'm packing my equipment and will be endeavouring to take some proper measurements whilst at IFA and/or CEDIA to find out what is the actual peak ON/OFF contrast performance with video content

I doubt you will be able to do that, and if so, will the conditions in the room really be optimal to even take a reliable reading?

Also the same for JVC if they have a new laser, will they really tell you the native contrast specs? Both manufactureres will probably just say its infinity!

My feeling is we wont know true contrast of either model until late in the year... which is infuriating!

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is online now  
post #46 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 06:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,014
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5039 Post(s)
Liked: 3276
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
No it's not about criticism on the VW885ES.

I am just against using too many mechnical components, these are susceptible to wear and tear, and also of course need speed to perform well, which causes noise. I find laser dimming a far more elegant solution for this kind of thing. Of course, having a manual aperature is a good idea, I just don't understand why you would want a dynamic one.
So that we can actually get some actual *blacks* out of the projector.
coxy2416 likes this.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #47 of 1478 Old 08-13-2018, 06:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,014
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5039 Post(s)
Liked: 3276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Don't agree entirely, there is still no reason for a company with Sony's general reputation to rest on their laurels with a half baked product, good as it may be in its current form.
To me it makes more business sense to keep the myriad of current owners happy that they are being supported, so they are more likely to upgrade to the same brand in future, rather than to jump to the good ship JVC or similar.
I find it odd how people call this a 'half baked product' when in the 885 owners thread you cant even slightly mention something along these lines without everyone getting all up in arms over it and pointing out how the blacks are "super deep black". Personally, I think the 885ES is probably a good projector. I wish I had one for gaming. I didn't buy it and got the 675ES because I wanted better blacks and heard that the dynamic dimming just didn't do a good enough job. Still, people seem pretty happy with the projector. If you go into the owners thread, everyone there is ecstatic and has no complaints.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #48 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 12:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,014
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5039 Post(s)
Liked: 3276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Not when you look at the marketing contrast specs.
885: ∞: 1 dynamic contrast range
675: 350000:1 dynamic contrast range

That is what most people are going to look at.

On my RS4500 I was perfectly fine with it's contrast performance, vs my RS600. Natively I was getting 24,000:1 on the RS4500. Around 80,000:1 with dynamic dimming and full fade to black. I don't think a laser projector has to beat the lamp based numbers (though I wish it would), I think it just has to provide a better overall experience. So lower native than the lamp based, but with a good dimming system and full fade to black can do it. So if Sony can improve the dimming system, it will just make a good projector even better.
I dunno. Once I see a grey star field, I'm pretty much just out. I don't think the RS4500 can do that well there yet and I think it's probably worse than my 675ES on that.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #49 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 01:04 AM
Senior Member
 
*Mori*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 239 Post(s)
Liked: 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I dunno. Once I see a grey star field, I'm pretty much just out. I don't think the RS4500 can do that well there yet and I think it's probably worse than my 675ES on that.
Starfield: at around 9:30 in that YT video you will get an impression of how good or how bad it might be:

According to Christian Obermeyer the black floor of the VW760/885 is not better but also not worse than that of the VW550/VW675 (I assume when comparing the same brightness (ADL)).
P.S. I also quite like the way they set up HDR when you look at some scenes of The Revenant in that YT clip. I might comment in the VW760 owner thread about that.
*Mori* is offline  
post #50 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 01:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,014
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5039 Post(s)
Liked: 3276
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Starfield: at around 9:30 in that YT video you will get an impression of how good or how bad it might be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyFTK6JDcKU

According to Christian Obermeyer the black floor of the VW760/885 is not better but also not worse than that of the VW550/VW675 (I assume when comparing the same brightness (ADL)).
P.S. I also quite like the way they set up HDR when you look at some scenes of The Revenant in that YT clip. I might comment in the VW760 owner thread about that.
Thanks for that clip. It's so hard to tell unless they do side-by-side with say an RS6xx or side-by-side with a few different projectors. It's interesting that he thinks the black floor is not worse than the 675ES. It's not the same opinion of some others. For me, the 675ES black floor is also not good enough, which is why I also have the RS640

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #51 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 02:00 AM
Senior Member
 
*Mori*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 216
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 239 Post(s)
Liked: 316
I think when you are not happy for black floor with the VW675 then you won't be happy with the VW760 and most likely also not with the VW870 (or whatever the anticipated new Sony laser beamer may be named). For me, I realize it could be better but it is good enough to make a star field realistic for me. I am aware that some JVC can do that better but it's about the only thing they can do better
Woof Woof likes this.
*Mori* is offline  
post #52 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 02:11 AM - Thread Starter
We're Nuts About AV
 
ARROW-AV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,363
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4002 Post(s)
Liked: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Starfield: at around 9:30 in that YT video you will get an impression of how good or how bad it might be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyFTK6JDcKU

According to Christian Obermeyer the black floor of the VW760/885 is not better but also not worse than that of the VW550/VW675 (I assume when comparing the same brightness (ADL)).
P.S. I also quite like the way they set up HDR when you look at some scenes of The Revenant in that YT clip. I might comment in the VW760 owner thread about that.
Mori, with the utmost respect, how about posting some actual accurate objective measurements for once?

Firstly, I recommend against people attempting to judge the black levels performance with respect to a projector via a YOUTUBE video both in its own right and comparatively, and especially if you are viewing it on your phone or whatever. Do I need to scientifically explain why?

Either way, NO, the SONY VW760/885 most certainly does NOT measure the same peak contrast performance as the VW550/VW675. That's a blatant falsehood.

Given both projectors use the same native 4K SXRD panel, which has the same native ON/OFF contrast performance, but the VW550/VW675 utlizes a dynamic iris whilst the VW760/885 has none (probably because SONY was/is withholding that for the new SONY 870/???ES projector) and so only features comparatively weak dynamic laser dimming as its only method of boosting ON/OFF contrast, regarding which even SONY themselves have stated "some people may not notice much of a change", how is that even possible exactly?

The peak ON/OFF contrast for the SONY 760/885ES, with the dynamic laser dimming activated, measures circa 23,000:1.

SONY's published peak ON/OFF contrast for the SONY VW550/VW675, with the dynamic iris activated, is 350,000:1.


Last edited by ARROW-AV; 08-14-2018 at 10:39 AM.
ARROW-AV is offline  
post #53 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
We're Nuts About AV
 
ARROW-AV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,363
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4002 Post(s)
Liked: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
It's interesting that he thinks the black floor is not worse than the 675ES. It's not the same opinion as almost absolutely every other professional reviewer and/or every other AV professional, who has taken proper accurate measurements.
I just fixed that for you

Let me put it this way, if that were the case, then the dynamic iris doesn't really do anything, in which case we can expect the contrast performance of the new SONY 870/???ES to measure no better than as compared with the SONY 760/885ES... something which I consider to be very highly improbable indeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I dunno. Once I see a grey star field, I'm pretty much just out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
For me, the 675ES black floor is also not good enough, which is why I also have the RS640
Makes sense. If the black levels (with low APL content) of the 675ES are not good enough for you then I can see why you have the JVC RS640, given with 160,000:1 native ON/OFF and up to 1,600,000:1 peak ON/OFF contrast it has the highest ON/OFF contrast performance of any home cinema/theater projector currently available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't think the RS4500 can do that well there yet and I think it's probably worse than my 675ES on that.
Correct. The JVC RS4500/Z1 measures circa 8,000 - 9,000:1 native ON/OFF contrast; and with peak ON/OFF, via the combination of both very good dynamic laser dimming in conjunction with its mechanical iris, measuring circa 150,000:1

markmon1 likes this.

Last edited by ARROW-AV; 08-14-2018 at 10:37 AM.
ARROW-AV is offline  
post #54 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 03:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 7,984
Mentioned: 479 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6891 Post(s)
Liked: 6579
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Makes sense. If the black levels (with low APL content) of the 675ES are not good enough for you then I can see why you have the JVC RS640, given with 160,000:1 native ON/OFF and up to 1,600,000:1 peak ON/OFF contrast it has the highest ON/OFF contrast performance of any home cinema/theater projector currently available.
Hell, even the JVC X9500 black levels are not good enough for me sometimes... If my eye can make out the black floor there is room for improvement!

Also starfields can be a bit of a trick, especially star wars which I think he used in the video, I dont think they are proper black. We know the SDR version of Intersellar is, but ive seen tons of starfield scenes in films which also have that 'atmosphere' pollution effect raising the black floor. So to do it, you have to be scientific. If that youtube reviewer saw the same thing, he could have easily been viewing a raised black floor scene, simple as that.
markmon1, ARROW-AV and Archibald1 like this.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is online now  
post #55 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
We're Nuts About AV
 
ARROW-AV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,363
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4002 Post(s)
Liked: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hell, even the JVC X9500 black levels are not good enough for me sometimes... If my eye can make out the black floor there is room for improvement!

Also starfields can be a bit of a trick, especially star wars which I think he used in the video, I dont think they are proper black. We know the SDR version of Intersellar is, but ive seen tons of starfield scenes in films which also have that 'atmosphere' pollution effect raising the black floor. So to do it, you have to be scientific. If that youtube reviewer saw the same thing, he could have easily been viewing a raised black floor scene, simple as that.
Amen to that! Just curious, what peak ON/OFF contrast do you measure with respect to actual typical usage with your JVC X9500?

Good point regarding the starfields.
.
ARROW-AV is offline  
post #56 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 04:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 7,984
Mentioned: 479 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6891 Post(s)
Liked: 6579
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Amen to that! Just curious, what peak ON/OFF contrast do you measure with respect to actual typical usage with your JVC X9500?

Good point regarding the starfields.
.
I am getting 100k:1 at -12 on the iris which is where I use it for SDR. For HDR at -0 I get about 44k:1.

I was talking about the dynamic iris too! I never have that off, so take those numbers and double or quardruple them I suppose.

A laser AND dynamic iris in combination with dynamic dimming would be incredible.
markmon1, ARROW-AV and Archibald1 like this.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is online now  
post #57 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
We're Nuts About AV
 
ARROW-AV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,363
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4002 Post(s)
Liked: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I doubt you will be able to do that, and if so, will the conditions in the room really be optimal to even take a reliable reading?

Also the same for JVC if they have a new laser, will they really tell you the native contrast specs? Both manufactureres will probably just say its infinity!

My feeling is we wont know true contrast of either model until late in the year... which is infuriating!
It's OK... I should be able to pull it off because I am going to be attending IFA and CEDIA dressed as a NINJA:

markmon1 and Javs like this.
ARROW-AV is offline  
post #58 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 04:24 AM - Thread Starter
We're Nuts About AV
 
ARROW-AV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,363
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4002 Post(s)
Liked: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I am getting 100k:1 at -12 on the iris which is where I use it for SDR. For HDR at -0 I get about 44k:1.

I was talking about the dynamic iris too! I never have that off, so take those numbers and double or quadruple them I suppose.
Nice!

Didn't you measure circa 500,000:1 ON/OFF with the dynamic iris with your setup? I thought I read you posting something along those lines fairly recently...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
A laser AND dynamic iris in combination with dynamic dimming would be incredible.
Absolutely agree! That's just one of the reasons why I am excited about this new SONY 870/???ES projector... if it transpires that the reports are accurate and it is indeed laser with a dynamic iris in combination with dynamic dimming, then that should deliver a very significant step up in performance
.

Last edited by ARROW-AV; 08-14-2018 at 04:29 AM.
ARROW-AV is offline  
post #59 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 04:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,135
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1919 Post(s)
Liked: 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I find it odd how people call this a 'half baked product' when in the 885 owners thread you cant even slightly mention something along these lines without everyone getting all up in arms over it and pointing out how the blacks are "super deep black". Personally, I think the 885ES is probably a good projector. I wish I had one for gaming. I didn't buy it and got the 675ES because I wanted better blacks and heard that the dynamic dimming just didn't do a good enough job. Still, people seem pretty happy with the projector. If you go into the owners thread, everyone there is ecstatic and has no complaints.
Maybe I should have said 7/8 baked product.

The point I was making is that any product that is released that doesn't make full use of the hardware installed is under baked. The dynamic dimming does do something but it could use improvement and the iris is already there and powered only not at the behest of the user.

A couple of tweaks would make a good projector truly great.

I have always been honest in my assessment of the 760 on the owners thread, can't speak for anyone else.
It is definitely the best all round projector I have yet owned but also the most expensive.
I guess that is what puts a bee in my bonnet more than anything else. The cost is far in excess of any of my previous projectors and yet support seems to be more of an afterthought than any of them.
I will say that I am disappointed with the performance of a product that cost as much as a decent automobile, re its original promise vs the actual potential contained within it.
I think it is the duty of a manufacturer to make all of their products perform to their maximum.

Ultimately I know Sony don't care if I never buy another of their products because as far as they are concerned, if you have the money and want one you will buy it and they won't give a monkeys if I only spend 3k on any future projector and it isn't one of theirs.
And with other native 4k machines supposedly on the way soon, that will be more likely to happen.

I will be looking with much interest at the new model coming but think it is highly likely that it will be pitched outside my willingness to justify the cost. We shall see.
Woof Woof likes this.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.

Last edited by Archibald1; 08-15-2018 at 02:08 AM.
Archibald1 is offline  
post #60 of 1478 Old 08-14-2018, 04:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,135
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1919 Post(s)
Liked: 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
It's OK... I should be able to pull it off because I am going to be attending IFA and CEDIA dressed as a NINJA:

Awesome! They won't even know you are there!
ARROW-AV likes this.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
Archibald1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Tags
870 , laser , projector , Sony , vw870es

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off