SONY VPL-VW870ES VPL-VW995ES 4K Laser Projector | Anticipation Thread - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
This topic has been beaten to death now, so I am loathe to make a post on it, but I'm struggling to get my head around the dE variance as an argument for achieving a difference in on/off contrast between 10k:1 and 15k:1.

Although no one would probably be able to see much difference between the two, and they're both pretty low figures anyway in the scheme of things, from a purely mathematical perspective, are we really suggesting that a looser calibration to a max 3dE yields a 50% increase in peak brightness compared to a tighter calibration at 1dE? That makes no sense at all.

Or are we saying that having a less accurate calibration at 5IRE somehow lowers the black floor by 1/3rd? (Again, that makes little sense) - I've actually tried reducing the RGB levels at 5IRE previously, to see if I could reduce the black floor, and it had no effect!
What happens when you calibrate a SONY projector to perfect accuracy is that the white level reduces significantly as you calibrate to being more accurate than 2% dE but the black level essentially stays the same, resulting in lower ON/OFF contrast performance and hence measurement. This is why the ON/OFF contrast drops. Scientifically speaking, when referring to calibrated performance with projectors this usually refers to being accurately calibrated, and if you calibrate SONY projectors completely accurately then, as you have yourself measured, the native ON/OFF contrast is circa 10,000:1 or less. So the likes of @Kris Deering and @Mike Garrett who have reported as such are in fact correct. Meaning that if it's a SONY projector you need to deliberately calibrate the projector slightly imperfectly so as to avoid losing contrast in this regard. Both THX and ISF stipulate 2% dE as the threshold for calibration accuracy, so this is what all certified professional video calibrators will be calibrating to. Your calibration reports will in fact be rejected if your calibration accuracy is worse than this.

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post #752 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
What happens when you calibrate a SONY projector to perfect accuracy is that the white level reduces significantly as you calibrate to being more accurate than 2% dE but the black level essentially stays the same, resulting in lower ON/OFF contrast performance and hence measurement. This is why the ON/OFF contrast drops. Scientifically speaking, when referring to calibrated performance with projectors this usually refers to being accurately calibrated, and if you calibrate SONY projectors completely accurately then, as you have yourself measured, the native ON/OFF contrast is circa 10,000:1 or less. So the likes of @Kris Deering and @Mike Garrett who have reported as such are in fact correct. Meaning that if it's a SONY projector you need to deliberately calibrate the projector slightly imperfectly so as to avoid losing contrast in this regard. Both THX and ISF stipulate 2% dE as the threshold for calibration accuracy, so this is what all certified professional video calibrators will be calibrating to. Your calibration reports will in fact be rejected if your calibration accuracy is worse than this.

I’ll have to test this then Nigel, as I still find it very hard to believe that a dE3 might result in, say, 1800 lumens, but a comparable dE1 results in 1200 lumens?!
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post #753 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I’ll have to test this then Nigel, as I still find it very hard to believe that a dE3 might result in, say, 1800 lumens, but a comparable dE1 results in 1200 lumens?!
Good idea

Your unit is currently measuring circa 10,000:1 max native ON/OFF accurately calibrated to less than 1% dE. Try recalibrating for maximum luminance with 3% dE and see what effect that has on the max native ON/OFF


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post #754 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Good idea

Your unit is currently measuring circa 10,000:1 max native ON/OFF accurately calibrated to less than 1% dE. Try recalibrating for maximum luminance with 3% dE and see what effect that has on the max native ON/OFF

Any idea when you will be able to test the 870ES and JVC 8K, Nigel?

I'm looking forward to your observations of the real production models.
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post #755 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
This from Kris Deering’s on words from the 885ES review on Sound and Vision.

“Sony projectors I've tested, with a peak Delta E of 5. (Delta E of 3 or under is considered reference and imperceptible to the human eye.) Minor tweaks to the grayscale and gamma controls resulted in a peak Delta E of 3. Gamma averaged 2.42 with the projector set to 2.4 and Rec. 1886 as my target gamma in CalMAN.”...
I am glad you also quoted that review. I have zero issues with Kris' reviews, have frequently quoted him as an authoritative source and continue to do so. In fact when I first got wind of the calibration numbers from our "outside expert" of the projector in our bake-off, Kris' review was one I sent to the person on my staff.

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Even as you said, if you can have a projector calibrated with 16k:1 and dE of 2 or the same projector calibrated with 8k:1 and dE of 1, I don’t know who would choose the latter...
Since you are referencing measurements from my bake-off I can tell you that we are in fact using the 16K:1 calibration and have been informed now that my old chief engineer from my prior post-production company has come on-board that we can likely do 10% better with service menu tweaks.

I have of course fired our "outside expert" who did not seem to understand that the purpose of calibrating the device was to get it compliant with standards while optimizing performance, not to achieve white-point calibration far below HVS perception while significantly degrading performance.
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post #756 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Any idea when you will be able to test the 870ES and JVC 8K, Nigel?

I'm looking forward to your observations of the real production models.
I am currently scheduled to receive delivery of all of the new JVCs (RS3000/NX9, RS2000/NX7, and RS1000/NX5) as well as the new SONY 695/570ES and SONY 295/270ES in approximately 4 weeks' time. I should hopefully be receiving delivery of the SONY 995/870ES circa 3 weeks after that. Where, in both instances this is slightly before general release. However, take these timeframes with a pinch of salt because it is not unheard of for the shipping dates for both JVC and SONY projectors to slip a bit. I will receive more definitive ETAs from JVC and SONY closer to the time

I took the precaution of carrying out the annual recalibration and recertification of my meters ahead of time this year, so I won't be finding myself in the frustrating position of having new model projectors being delivered, whilst my meters are stuck in UK customs awaiting clearance, which is precisely what happened last year with respect to the SONY 885/760ES... Never again!

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post #757 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I am currently scheduled to receive delivery of all of the new JVCs (RS3000/NX9, RS2000/NX7, and RS1000/NX5) as well as the new SONY 695/570ES and SONY 295/270ES in approximately 4 weeks' time. I should hopefully be receiving delivery of the SONY 995/870ES circa 3 weeks after that. Where, in both instances this is slightly before general release. However, take these timeframes with a pinch of salt because it is not unheard of for the shipping dates for both JVC and SONY projectors to slip a bit. I will receive more definitive ETAs from JVC and SONY closer to the time



I took the precaution of carrying out the annual recalibration and recertification of my meters ahead of time this year, so I won't be finding myself in the frustrating position of having new model projectors being delivered, whilst my meters are stuck in UK customs awaiting clearance, which is precisely what happened last year with respect to the SONY 885/760ES... Never again!





Nigel, are you going to be posting actual detailed reviews of each?

I have seen you mention in the past that you were doing detailed reviews of the RS4500 and the 885ES. Did you ever release those? Do you post them on AVS or somewhere else?

Also, Alan had mentioned to me a couple months back that you were doing a detailed review of the Sim2 Duo HDR system. I would love to read it, but haven’t seen you mention it. Is there another site where you are posting these at?

Thanks
Chris


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post #758 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
This topic has been beaten to death now, so I am loathe to make a post on it, but I'm struggling to get my head around the dE variance as an argument for achieving a difference in on/off contrast between 10k:1 and 15k:1.

Although no one would probably be able to see much difference between the two, and they're both pretty low figures anyway in the scheme of things, from a purely mathematical perspective, are we really suggesting that a looser calibration to a max 3dE yields a 50% increase in peak brightness compared to a tighter calibration at 1dE? That makes no sense at all.

Or are we saying that having a less accurate calibration at 5IRE somehow lowers the black floor by 1/3rd? (Again, that makes little sense) - I've actually tried reducing the RGB levels at 5IRE previously, to see if I could reduce the black floor, and it had no effect!
It is not only the report from the Sony Pro field engineers. After @ccool96 post I looked over Kris Deering's review. He also noted the significant impact that calibration can have on the on/off contrast performance of the Sony.

Care should be taken, however, when setting grayscale and gamma, as you could unintentionally lower the overall contrast performance if you take away light to get the best possible grayscale. I saw contrast measurements drop by as much as 50 percent when I wasn't carefully monitoring the effect of these settings.

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...qov055PRpMq.99
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post #759 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Nigel, are you going to be posting actual detailed reviews of each?
Yes, I will be

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I have seen you mention in the past that you were doing detailed reviews of the RS4500 and the 885ES. Did you ever release those? Do you post them on AVS or somewhere else?
I already published a review of the RS4500/Z1 when it first was launched in February 2017. I also already carried out an in-depth review and evaluation of the SONY 885/760ES which encompasses an entire thread on this forum.

I had intended on carrying out and publishing a direct comparison between the JVC RS4500/Z1 and the SONY 885/760ES, however I unfortunately was diagnosed with a heart problem that needed surgery, which is the reason I stopped posting on here for about 6 months. The good news is that the surgery was a complete success, but it meant that some of what I had planned, this included, didn't happen. However, I am going to be including this as part of my upcoming direct comparisons.

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Also, Alan had mentioned to me a couple months back that you were doing a detailed review of the Sim2 Duo HDR system. I would love to read it, but haven’t seen you mention it.
This is pretty much finished and is awaiting fact checking by SIM2. Further to this, I am going to be shortly visiting the shiny brand new SIM2 factory in Italy to carry out one item of final due dilligence. So this will be published imminently.

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post #760 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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It is not only the report from the Sony Pro field engineers. After @ccool96 post I looked over Kris Deering's review. He also noted the significant impact that calibration can have on the on/off contrast performance of the Sony.

Care should be taken, however, when setting grayscale and gamma, as you could unintentionally lower the overall contrast performance if you take away light to get the best possible grayscale. I saw contrast measurements drop by as much as 50 percent when I wasn't carefully monitoring the effect of these settings.

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...qov055PRpMq.99
Yup. Absolutely no question that the phenomenon exists and that as a result you don't want to be calibrating SONY projectors to D65 with higher accuracy than 2% (or 3% ) dE


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post #761 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 01:28 PM
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Yup. Absolutely no question that the phenomenon exists and that as a result you don't want to be calibrating SONY projectors to D65 with higher accuracy than 2% (or 3% ) dE

Interesting, this is the first I have heard this.
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post #762 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 01:54 PM
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Question

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes, I will be


I already published a review of the RS4500/Z1 when it first was launched in February 2017.


Nigel,


Would you mind posting a direct link to your JVC RS4500 review as I have not seen it


Thanks,
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post #763 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting, this is the first I have heard this.
Really? I have made a number of posts regarding this phenomenon previously. But I can't claim credit for being the only one to have observed this. @Kris Deering raised this in his review of the SONY 885/760ES: https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ojector-review

Also worth mentioning is the fact that when the laser level is adjusted with any of SONY's laser projectors, so this includes all of the SONY 885/760ES, 995/870ES, and 5000ES, this alters the gamma and grayscale. So ideally you want to establish what laser level settings you are going to be using with respect to HDR and SDR content and then carry out the respective calibrations for those with the laser level set to those settings, because if you calibrate using one laser level setting and then change it afterwards this will throw the grayscale and gamma and hence the calibration out of whack.


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Nigel,

Would you mind posting a direct link to your JVC RS4500 review as I have not seen it

Thanks,
Terry
Unfortunately, I can't do that because it's on my website and I can't post a direct link to that because that will be deemed as promoting my business which is against AVSForum rules. So I have sent you an email with the link

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post #764 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Really? I have made a number of posts regarding this phenomenon previously. But I can't claim credit for being the only one to have observed this. @Kris Deering raised this in his review of the SONY 885/760ES: https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ojector-review

Also worth mentioning is the fact that when the laser level is adjusted with any of SONY's laser projectors, so this includes all of the SONY 885/760ES, 995/870ES, and 5000ES, this alters the gamma and grayscale. So ideally you want to establish what laser level settings you are going to be using with respect to HDR and SDR content and then carry out the respective calibrations for those with the laser level set to those settings, because if you calibrate using one laser level setting and then change it afterwards this will throw the grayscale and gamma and hence the calibration out of whack.



Unfortunately, I can't do that because it's on my website and I can't post a direct link to that because that will be deemed as promoting my business which is against AVSForum rules. So I have sent you an email with the link

Nigel,


I did look at all your Threads on here and did not see it now I know why.


Thanks,
Terry

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https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...st-2018-a.html
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post #765 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 03:11 PM
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Also, Alan had mentioned to me a couple months back that you were doing a detailed review of the Sim2 Duo HDR system. I would love to read it, but haven’t seen you mention it. Is there another site where you are posting these at?
Smart readers would put 2 and 2 together here. I see a cat scratching to get out of a bag
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post #766 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 03:35 PM
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Just to be clear... The reason why the SONY 5000ES in the JBL Synthesis Theater at CEDIA looked rubbish had nothing to do with @Kris Deering 's setup and calibration of the projector, but because a port glass was installed AFTER he completed his calibration that right royally screwed up the image. Futhermore, the projector unit itself was malfunctioning as well, for example only half of the GUI menu was being displayed for some weird reason.

@Kris Deering was asked to calibrate the projector accurately and that is precisely what he did and did a fantastic job of doing so. It's not his fault that SONY projectors can't be calibrated to perfect accuracy without incurring a significant drop in native ON/OFF contrast performance. Other manufacturers of projectors don't have this issue. So if you have a problem with this then I suggest you take it up with SONY. Either way, IMO your suggestion that @Kris Deering 'did not set it up properly' is out of order.

And for what it's worth, as I have already stated, both THX and ISF, who are responsible for not only training but certifying professional video calibrators worldwide, stipulate 2% dE tolerance for calibration accuracy, not 3% or 4%.

This is nonsense!

I was responding to reports of the poor performance of the VW5000es at the CEDIA Harmon Theater. I had no idea that @Kris Deering did that setup! I asked one of my guys to check it out since I was considering a Synthesis system for my new theater. He reported that the PQ was very poor and glanced at a few posts on AVS which seemed to agree.

I would not have gone on record suggesting that Kris Deering offer Sony calibration services ala WM Phelps if I thought he did not know what he was doing.
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post #767 of 1465 Old 09-13-2018, 04:02 PM
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Greetings all,
I feel it is an exciting time for us HT buffs as both Sony and moreover JVC took a big step this year and decided to assemble their best lens in a projector which is not their flagship, I do believe that the lens quality factor along with the other known merits of each brand will result in unprecedented picture quality as some of the reports from both CEDIA and IFA imply.
I intend to make an upgrade this time as JVC NX-9 and Sony 870 are my main candidates.
I have a short throw distance - projector to screen circa 10', which enables to open 100'' scope ratio full zoom.

Since the upcoming VPL-VW870ES is relatively smaller than the VPL-VW5000ES and they carry the same ARC-F lens, the thought of purchasing the 870 with a zoom lens seems quite intriguing, as for the same 10' throw distance I could choose between 125''-160'' image of scope ratio, now that is a big leap I reckon and could be overwhelming as far as cinematic experience.
Exciting as this could be I'd rather have quality over quantity, thus I'll take the right to reserve judgment till reviews and comparisons to the JVC NX-9 by Nigel and Kris deering come to light.


If indeed Sony's VPL-VW870ES becomes an option,

Does the zoom lens namely the -VPLL-Z7008 is also an ARC-F 18 elements lens that carry all qualities as the bundled VPLL-Z7013?
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post #768 of 1465 Old 09-14-2018, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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This is nonsense!

I was responding to reports of the poor performance of the VW5000es at the CEDIA Harmon Theater. I had no idea that @Kris Deering did that setup! I asked one of my guys to check it out since I was considering a Synthesis system for my new theater. He reported that the PQ was very poor and glanced at a few posts on AVS which seemed to agree.

I would not have gone on record suggesting that Kris Deering offer Sony calibration services ala WM Phelps if I thought he did not know what he was doing
Well OK then Either way, that's why the SONY 5000ES in the JBL booth didn't look very good at CEDIA. A port glass was installed after the projector had been setup and calibrated and it also transpired that the particular unit was malfunctioning as well. So unfortunately that particular SONY 5000ES was not looking anything like as good as it should do for these reasons.

On the other hand, the SONY 5000ES in the ALCONS demo, which was using the DreamScreen Ultraweave V6 PRO material, was in my opinion the best looking SONY 5000ES at CEDIA.

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post #769 of 1465 Old 09-14-2018, 02:10 AM
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Well OK then Either way, that's why the SONY 5000ES in the JBL booth didn't look very good at CEDIA. A port glass was installed after the projector had been setup and calibrated and it also transpired that the particular unit was malfunctioning as well. So unfortunately that particular SONY 5000ES was not looking anything like as good as it should do for these reasons.

On the other hand, the SONY 5000ES in the ALCONS demo, which was using the DreamScreen Ultraweave V6 PRO material, was in my opinion the best looking SONY 5000ES at CEDIA.

It does seem as if some of the VW5000´s Sony brought to CEDIA this time was indeed a bit "beat up". We had our first unit replaced, but that was a actually a service unit and was supposed to be their display unit, so that was not per Sonys intention. The second unit, the one we used throughout the show, was quite OK though, but the one we used at ISE did "feel" better, but it might just as well been the content we threw at it this time that was the cause. Basic settings when we received the unit were, however, quite off, for example, the Smooth Gradiation was set to maximum and HDR level to 60 when we received the unit, which would result in both smearing (smooth gradiation) and very low HDR light output. I guess most VW5000´s were properly adjusted though, but if someone would happen to just install one using the default settings it would hardly be a good match for HDR at least...

HDR is indeed a very complicated "monster", and when running SDR / HDR clips extracted from just about any type of source material I have to admit I found it quite challenging even to optimise "on the fly". While one clip, such as LaLaLand, posterised like hell and burned out at >80 HDR "contrast", clips like Ready Player One looked completely dim at 80 and did not burn out much at 100 HDR contrast either. Smooth gradiation in 4K does not work at all, so it should never be used on HDR content with the Sonys. If the JBL booth were running, like we did, a variety of clips, and no "live tuning" as such, I guess they would have quite a hard time reproducing convincing results...

Hopefully HDR processing will be improved moving forward, and perhaps the VW995 is better in such regards too, I have just spend a couple of hours today with a JVC RS440 / X5900 and the Panny UB820, and a number of clips that worked fine on the Sony 1000ES using regular HDR -> SDR conversion appears either too dark and over saturated (in HDR default), or way too desaturated in SDR conversion mode. Lucy in 4K HDR, for example, looks fantastic using the Sony UHD player (in SDR conversion mode that is), while not working at all at just about any setting using the Panny. Oblivion, in 4K HDR, looks great on the Panny, even in HDR mode and some tone mapping adjustments applied to it, while appearing desaturated on the Sony... It´s basically a "jungle", and it makes little sense when even quite the hard core AV enthusiasts (aka nerd) like I would consider myself (and my colleges, don´t tell em´... ) is not able to get consistent results having the very latest and most advanced gear at hand...

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post #770 of 1465 Old 09-14-2018, 03:17 AM
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Greetings all,
I feel it is an exciting time for us HT buffs as both Sony and moreover JVC took a big step this year and decided to assemble their best lens in a projector which is not their flagship, I do believe that the lens quality factor along with the other known merits of each brand will result in unprecedented picture quality as some of the reports from both CEDIA and IFA imply.
I intend to make an upgrade this time as JVC NX-9 and Sony 870 are my main candidates.
I have a short throw distance - projector to screen circa 10', which enables to open 100'' scope ratio full zoom.

Since the upcoming VPL-VW870ES is relatively smaller than the VPL-VW5000ES and they carry the same ARC-F lens, the thought of purchasing the 870 with a zoom lens seems quite intriguing, as for the same 10' throw distance I could choose between 125''-160'' image of scope ratio, now that is a big leap I reckon and could be overwhelming as far as cinematic experience.
Exciting as this could be I'd rather have quality over quantity, thus I'll take the right to reserve judgment till reviews and comparisons to the JVC NX-9 by Nigel and Kris deering come to light.


If indeed Sony's VPL-VW870ES becomes an option,

Does the zoom lens namely the -VPLL-Z7008 is also an ARC-F 18 elements lens that carry all qualities as the bundled VPLL-Z7013?
I am in the same boat as you, with the same PJ candidates ( JVC NX-9 or Sony 870 ES). I will be using an 129" AT wide scope screen (gain 0.95) with or without Panamorph lens.
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post #771 of 1465 Old 09-14-2018, 06:25 AM
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Also worth mentioning is the fact that when the laser level is adjusted with any of SONY's laser projectors, so this includes all of the SONY 885/760ES, 995/870ES, and 5000ES, this alters the gamma and grayscale. So ideally you want to establish what laser level settings you are going to be using with respect to HDR and SDR content and then carry out the respective calibrations for those with the laser level set to those settings, because if you calibrate using one laser level setting and then change it afterwards this will throw the grayscale and gamma and hence the calibration out of whack.
Really!? Does that happen on the Z1? I am guessing not.

Why is the laser in the Sony's so 'un-pure' (for want of a better phrase)? Surely a stable light source such as a laser should make errors such as that a thing of the past.

Maybe going back to a bulb based projector such as an N7 or N9 isn't such a stretch for me after all.
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post #772 of 1465 Old 09-14-2018, 03:02 PM
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...
Also worth mentioning is the fact that when the laser level is adjusted with any of SONY's laser projectors, so this includes all of the SONY 885/760ES, 995/870ES, and 5000ES, this alters the gamma and grayscale. So ideally you want to establish what laser level settings you are going to be using with respect to HDR and SDR content and then carry out the respective calibrations for those with the laser level set to those settings, because if you calibrate using one laser level setting and then change it afterwards this will throw the grayscale and gamma and hence the calibration out of whack...
What is the level of gamma/grayscale changes? HVS perceptible changes would have significant negative impact on laser dimming which could severely limit its usability.
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post #773 of 1465 Old 09-14-2018, 03:10 PM
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Really!? Does that happen on the Z1? I am guessing not.

Why is the laser in the Sony's so 'un-pure' (for want of a better phrase)? Surely a stable light source such as a laser should make errors such as that a thing of the past.

Maybe going back to a bulb based projector such as an N7 or N9 isn't such a stretch for me after all.
The RS4500 / Z1 has three laser settings - low, medium and high. Chad B did a separate calibration for SDR on low laser, and one for HDR on mid laser ( I prefer to not use high laser ).
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post #774 of 1465 Old 09-14-2018, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Here 2C View Post
Greetings all,
I feel it is an exciting time for us HT buffs as both Sony and moreover JVC took a big step this year and decided to assemble their best lens in a projector which is not their flagship, I do believe that the lens quality factor along with the other known merits of each brand will result in unprecedented picture quality as some of the reports from both CEDIA and IFA imply.
I intend to make an upgrade this time as JVC NX-9 and Sony 870 are my main candidates.
I have a short throw distance - projector to screen circa 10', which enables to open 100'' scope ratio full zoom.

Since the upcoming VPL-VW870ES is relatively smaller than the VPL-VW5000ES and they carry the same ARC-F lens, the thought of purchasing the 870 with a zoom lens seems quite intriguing, as for the same 10' throw distance I could choose between 125''-160'' image of scope ratio, now that is a big leap I reckon and could be overwhelming as far as cinematic experience.
Exciting as this could be I'd rather have quality over quantity, thus I'll take the right to reserve judgment till reviews and comparisons to the JVC NX-9 by Nigel and Kris deering come to light.


If indeed Sony's VPL-VW870ES becomes an option,

Does the zoom lens namely the -VPLL-Z7008 is also an ARC-F 18 elements lens that carry all qualities as the bundled VPLL-Z7013?
The Z7008 is a similar quality all glass lens with 6 ELD elements. IIMU that the Z7008 does not have a DI. The Z7008 which retails for $10K is also more expensive than the Z7013 which retail for $7K.

Sony consumer has also made the stupid decision to not offer optional lens SKUs so you would have to buy the short throw lens in addition to the bundled zoom lens.
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post #775 of 1465 Old 09-14-2018, 04:41 PM
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Thanks so much for your answer mate.
If I understand you correctly, I can't purchase the optional Z7008 zoom lens instead of the bundled
Z7013, But only in addition to it?
That does not make sense, even if one uses the bundle lens and wishes to change to the zoom from time to time and vice versa hence he has to send it to Sony to reassemble each time? Moreover no dynamic iris.....

Before comparisons and measurement take place as far as I am concerned if the Sony 870 had any edge over the JVC was in Laser vs bulb, and the optional zoom lens-picture size.

I hope that would turn out to be incorrect otherwise choosing Sony 870 over JVC NX-9/RS3000, paying double the price and adding an extra 10K$ would be a foolish investment.
To add insult to injury most of the reports here on AVS and impressions by some of my friends who visited the show imply that JVC may have the upper hand on picture quality.
I'm extremely disappointed as I was leaning towards the Sony
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post #776 of 1465 Old 09-15-2018, 05:22 AM
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Thanks so much for your answer mate.
If I understand you correctly, I can't purchase the optional Z7008 zoom lens instead of the bundled
Z7013, But only in addition to it?
That does not make sense, even if one uses the bundle lens and wishes to change to the zoom from time to time and vice versa hence he has to send it to Sony to reassemble each time? Moreover no dynamic iris.....

Before comparisons and measurement take place as far as I am concerned if the Sony 870 had any edge over the JVC was in Laser vs bulb, and the optional zoom lens-picture size.

I hope that would turn out to be incorrect otherwise choosing Sony 870 over JVC NX-9/RS3000, paying double the price and adding an extra 10K$ would be a foolish investment. To add insult to injury most of the reports here on AVS and impressions by some of my friends who visited the show imply that JVC may have the upper hand on picture quality.
I'm extremely disappointed as I was leaning towards the Sony
Yeah, doesn't make sense does it? You would think they would offer a short throw model and a normal throw model for those who don't want two lenses. more money for them of course....

As for the last point, don't sweat it.
Sony have done this to themselves and deserve all the lack of sales coming their way if you ask me. They really need to stop sitting on those gold plated laurels and start to advance their tech instead of just using more and more software to mask the deficiencies.
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post #777 of 1465 Old 09-15-2018, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Here 2C View Post
I hope that would turn out to be incorrect otherwise choosing Sony 870 over JVC NX-9/RS3000, paying double the price and adding an extra 10K$ would be a foolish investment.
To add insult to injury most of the reports here on AVS and impressions by some of my friends who visited the show imply that JVC may have the upper hand on picture quality.
I'm extremely disappointed as I was leaning towards the Sony
You shouldn't be extremely disappointed. You should be thrilled. The NX9 is half the price of the 995ES so this should save you a decent amount of $$ and give you better performance. You've been saved in the nick of time Who would be disappointed about that?
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post #778 of 1465 Old 09-15-2018, 07:26 AM
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You shouldn't be extremely disappointed. You should be thrilled. The NX9 is half the price of the 995ES so this should save you a decent amount of $$ and give you better performance. You've been saved in the nick of time Who would be disappointed about that?
Saved ? Well that's another way to look at it.
"We" spend obscene amount of money just to have a small improvement-law of diminishing returns if you will.
My perspective is,since we cannot debate on what's "reasonable" which is subjective, it all comes down to what's the alternative ?

The simple answer is there is no alternative to the Sony 870 zoom lens,not from JVC at least.
Let us put price aside momentarily.
We know what's on the table, if you ask me I have a hunch that the JVC NX-9 will present an overall better picture over Sony's 870, for some people that is all that matters.
But what if ?

What if that overall NX-9 picture you would rate 89 and the Sony 83 ?
What if JVC's contrast is way better than Sony yet Sony's contrast is sufficient ?
If that would be the case then picture size is a big factor.
My JVC can throw 100'' scope and when I go to my friend's house and watch his (RS640 JVC)133'' scope it is like .....WOW ! its like the difference between 75'' TV and projector.
Only a 25'' or 60'' margin with the Sony but totally different experience.
What would you do ?

P.S. Sony's MSRP/street price is not double with respect to the JVC with EU dealers, and zoom lens factory assembled pending clarification.
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post #779 of 1465 Old 09-15-2018, 07:55 AM
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Yeah, doesn't make sense does it? You would think they would offer a short throw model and a normal throw model for those who don't want two lenses. more money for them of course....

As for the last point, don't sweat it.
Sony have done this to themselves and deserve all the lack of sales coming their way if you ask me. They really need to stop sitting on those gold plated laurels and start to advance their tech instead of just using more and more software to mask the deficiencies.
I feel your frustration Arch
I've been reading your recent posts and I am not sure Sony is feeling you the same unfortunately.
I watched Chris Deutsch of JVC US footage from Cedia proclaiming they read and follow AVS forum constantly, I bet that is reassuring to their customers.
I wish that Sony customers would have that roof above their heads, it is what it is.
One way is to let off steam here which probably helps a tad, but best way is vote with your wallet next time.
Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you.
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post #780 of 1465 Old 09-15-2018, 08:17 AM
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Thanks so much for your answer mate.
If I understand you correctly, I can't purchase the optional Z7008 zoom lens instead of the bundled
Z7013, But only in addition to it?
That does not make sense, even if one uses the bundle lens and wishes to change to the zoom from time to time and vice versa hence he has to send it to Sony to reassemble each time? Moreover no dynamic iris.....

Before comparisons and measurement take place as far as I am concerned if the Sony 870 had any edge over the JVC was in Laser vs bulb, and the optional zoom lens-picture size.

I hope that would turn out to be incorrect otherwise choosing Sony 870 over JVC NX-9/RS3000, paying double the price and adding an extra 10K$ would be a foolish investment.
To add insult to injury most of the reports here on AVS and impressions by some of my friends who visited the show imply that JVC may have the upper hand on picture quality.
I'm extremely disappointed as I was leaning towards the Sony
You should check on your location. The bundled model is what I understand they are doing in the US. Sony had the same policy with the VW5000es where the short throw was an extra cost additional accessory instead of a different SKU.

Last edited by HoustonHoyaFan; 09-15-2018 at 08:54 AM.
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