SONY VPL-VW870ES VPL-VW995ES 4K Laser Projector | Anticipation Thread - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 11:58 AM
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Maybe WSR will have Doug Blackburn's full review next issue too. There was an initial report (from a two week demo of a preproduction unit) back in September's issue, but this withheld numbers until a full production unit was available to review.
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post #1112 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Most everyone who's opinion I respect says that the laser light engines can't be replaced or that they could be replaced but it would cost more than a new projector.

I use my home theater as my only media room. We watch all of our television, movies, play games on the projector. I had about 2700 hours on my Sony 385 bulb at one year that I just replaced. So yeah, I use my projector a lot. So in my case, I would only get about 5 years of adequate light output out of the current lasers from Sony. After that period the projector would only be good as a paper weight. Spending $25K - $35K every 5 years just doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
On top of that, I don't believe Sony's 20,000 hours. They said their lamps last 6,000 hours on low lamp. I ran my 675ES on low lamp and the bulb took a crap, hard, at 880 hours. My friend's 285ES (also a 6000 hour bulb) had to be replaced at 2200 hours it was about 40% of capacity. Based on Sony's lying ratings on their bulbs, I can extrapolate that its laser will last about 10,000 hours. Most owners probably wont even get that far. I would. I am another 2800 hour a year user. Projector is generally on from 10pm to 6am every day and then sometimes during the day if I do some development work.
To clarify and provide a different experience: Sony’s claim for your 675ES is “up to 6000 hours” on low lamp mode. Were you on low or high? And how you use a lamp greatly affects its life. For example, frequent power cycles will shorten its life. Don’t think this was your case, but you may just be exceeding its life by keeping it on so long. I have a lot of vacuum tube gear, which is also lamp based. One of the caveats with tubes is you don’t keep them on all day. So your 8 hour per day useage time is probably what’s killing your lamp life. And I bet you were on high mode.

My 95ES has 1200 hours (mostly on low mode) and the image quality is perfect.
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post #1113 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
Maybe WSR will have Doug Blackburn's full review next issue too. There was an initial report (from a two week demo of a preproduction unit) back in September's issue, but this withheld numbers until a full production unit was available to review.
Is this initial report available online?
Thanks

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post #1114 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
To clarify and provide a different experience: Sony’s claim for your 675ES is “up to 6000 hours” on low lamp mode. Were you on low or high? And how you use a lamp greatly affects its life. For example, frequent power cycles will shorten its life. Don’t think this was your case, but you may just be exceeding its life by keeping it on so long. I have a lot of vacuum tube gear, which is also lamp based. One of the caveats with tubes is you don’t keep them on all day. So your 8 hour per day useage time is probably what’s killing your lamp life. And I bet you were on high mode.
Read my post. It specifically says i was on low lamp.
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I ran my 675ES on low lamp and the bulb took a crap, hard, at 880 hours.
I'm even willing to agree that my first bad bulb was a fluke. But who's to say that there won't be many flukes with lasers? And lets say they're around 2500 hours or 5000 hours. Most people will be outside of warranty by that time, too.

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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
My 95ES has 1200 hours (mostly on low mode) and the image quality is perfect.
By the way, how do you know your 95ES image quality is "perfect"? You tend not to notice the gradual lamp decrease as it occurs gradually over time. I actually measure my lamps every 500 hours or so and chart the lumen output. If you don't have new vs 1200 hour measurements then you cant say that the image is perfect. You don't know.

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post #1115 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Read my post. It specifically says i was on low lamp.


I'm even willing to agree that my first bad bulb was a fluke. But who's to say that there won't be many flukes with lasers? And lets say they're around 2500 hours or 5000 hours. Most people will be outside of warranty by that time, too.



By the way, how do you know your 95ES image quality is "perfect"? You tend not to notice the gradual lamp decrease as it occurs gradually over time. I actually measure my lamps every 500 hours or so and chart the lumen output. If you don't have new vs 1200 hour measurements then you cant say that the image is perfect. You don't know.
I build color calibration devices for a living, that’s how I know!!

I’m not sure what your point is, are you trying to poo-poo laser projectors because you had a short lamp life with your non-laser projector? I don’t get it.

I bet that running your lamp 8 hours in a row is what’s shortening its life. These are not commercial projectors. They are designed for home use. Just like keeping a valve amp on for 8 hours will significantly reduce its tube life, you probably experienced the same thing.
Note that a laser doesn’t behave this way.
(Remember that we’ve been using bulbs since Edison!)

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post #1116 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Is this initial report available online?
For subscribers to WSR (there is a prompt to log in) it is available at https://www.widescreenreview.com/wsr....php?recid=233
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post #1117 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
For subscribers to WSR (there is a prompt to log in) it is available at https://www.widescreenreview.com/wsr....php?recid=233
Just bought an online subscription for $15 and read the first thoughts review. Oh boy, what a great review!
Oh man...

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post #1118 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
I build color calibration devices for a living, that’s how I know!!

I’m not sure what your point is, are you trying to poo-poo laser projectors because you had a short lamp life with your non-laser projector? I don’t get it.
No. I'm saying that we cant trust manufacturers on their specs for bulbs. Whatever they spec them to, they clearly are not lasting nearly as long. Therefore, I cant trust that same manufacturer on his specs for lasers. What I can do is translate it. If his 6000 hour bulb lasts ~1500-2000 hours, then his 20000 hour laser probably lasts 5000-10000 hours. If his 6000 hour bulb can tank at 800 hours in some rare but not unheard of cases, then his 20000 hour laser can tank at 2000 hours in some rare and unheard of cases. People seem to think bulbs that are rated at 6000 hours are 1500 or so hours and flaky but lasers rated at 20000 hours are 20000 hours or more solid. I don't believe it until we see them lasting 20000 or so hours.

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I bet that running your lamp 8 hours in a row is what’s shortening its life.
Nonsense. If anything, its the ramp up and ramp down that is hard on a bulb. Running it long periods of time is better for it. This much is common knowledge.

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post #1119 of 1466 Old 12-03-2018, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
No. I'm saying that we cant trust manufacturers on their specs for bulbs. Whatever they spec them to, they clearly are not lasting nearly as long. Therefore, I cant trust that same manufacturer on his specs for lasers. What I can do is translate it. If his 6000 hour bulb lasts ~1500-2000 hours, then his 20000 hour laser probably lasts 5000-10000 hours. If his 6000 hour bulb can tank at 800 hours in some rare but not unheard of cases, then his 20000 hour laser can tank at 2000 hours in some rare and unheard of cases. People seem to think bulbs that are rated at 6000 hours are 1500 or so hours and flaky but lasers rated at 20000 hours are 20000 hours or more solid. I don't believe it until we see them lasting 20000 or so hours.

Nonsense. If anything, its the ramp up and ramp down that is hard on a bulb. Running it long periods of time is better for it. This much is common knowledge.
Lasers are unaffected by on / off cycles though. Lamps, not so much. Lamp strikes wear out a bulb more than the actual hours I bet. By the time I reach 1000 hours on a lamp, I've probably turned it on and off 500 times. Anyway, I can tell you that at 1000 hours on my laser projector, I can't detect dimming yet. The dimming so far is tiny. I'd already be ordering a new lamp if I was using a lamp based projector.
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post #1120 of 1466 Old 12-04-2018, 06:05 AM
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Lasers are unaffected by on / off cycles though. Lamps, not so much. Lamp strikes wear out a bulb more than the actual hours I bet. By the time I reach 1000 hours on a lamp, I've probably turned it on and off 500 times. Anyway, I can tell you that at 1000 hours on my laser projector, I can't detect dimming yet. The dimming so far is tiny. I'd already be ordering a new lamp if I was using a lamp based projector.
For sure the heat up and cool down cycle of switching a bulb on and off is what causes the degradation of the filament.
Lasers do not suffer that to anything like the same degree.

The main benefit to me of a laser light source, is its superb stability in the presentation of the image. No flicker detectable at all. As a result, going back to a bulb based unit, unless they can somehow magically eliminate the flicker, is not going to be easy for me.

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post #1121 of 1466 Old 12-04-2018, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Lasers are unaffected by on / off cycles though. Lamps, not so much. Lamp strikes wear out a bulb more than the actual hours I bet. By the time I reach 1000 hours on a lamp, I've probably turned it on and off 500 times. Anyway, I can tell you that at 1000 hours on my laser projector, I can't detect dimming yet. The dimming so far is tiny. I'd already be ordering a new lamp if I was using a lamp based projector.
Pretty sure the RS4500 works different in regard to how it manages the laser than the Sony. The RS4500 gradually increases some output to the projector laser as it ages to keep it so its at the same lumens output as it ages up to that rated 30,000 hours or whatever it is. So while the light system on the RS4500 dims, you shouldn't notice it until you get past the rated mark. I don't think the Sony does the same thing. Also, I trust JVC's bulb ratings far more than Sony's. My old RS500 is around 3500 hours right now and the bulb is still cranking out 1700 lumens last time we checked with meter (last month). My RS640 has only lost about 100 lumens at the 795 hour mark.

Also when I fire up the projector, it's on between 3-8 hours so the bulb that died at 880 hours for me (died means hit about 40% brightness) probably had only around 120 power cycles.

Has anyone reliable (ie not Ekki) done any contrast measurements on a 995ES yet with the dynamic iris?

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post #1122 of 1466 Old 12-04-2018, 08:49 AM
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Pretty sure the RS4500 works different in regard to how it manages the laser than the Sony. The RS4500 gradually increases some output to the projector laser as it ages to keep it so its at the same lumens output as it ages up to that rated 30,000 hours or whatever it is. So while the light system on the RS4500 dims, you shouldn't notice it until you get past the rated mark. I don't think the Sony does the same thing. Also, I trust JVC's bulb ratings far more than Sony's. My old RS500 is around 3500 hours right now and the bulb is still cranking out 1700 lumens last time we checked with meter (last month). My RS640 has only lost about 100 lumens at the 795 hour mark.

Also when I fire up the projector, it's on between 3-8 hours so the bulb that died at 880 hours for me (died means hit about 40% brightness) probably had only around 120 power cycles.

Has anyone reliable (ie not Ekki) done any contrast measurements on a 995ES yet with the dynamic iris?
Neither the Sony's nor the RS4500 do that. They dim slowly in a linear fashion. I've double checked with the engineer at JVC -

(The LD module will operate 20,000-40,000 hours depending on how you run the LD power) After 20,000 hours at full LD power you will be approx. 1500 lumens).

I addressed this in another post already - to you specifically I believe.
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post #1123 of 1466 Old 12-04-2018, 03:53 PM
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For subscribers to WSR (there is a prompt to log in) it is available at https://www.widescreenreview.com/wsr....php?recid=233

Nice thanks. I think I'll just wait until the next issue arrives in the mail tho. I like to do my reading in the bathroom.
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Nice thanks. I think I'll just wait until the next issue arrives in the mail tho. I like to do my reading in the bathroom.
Thats where I do some of my best planning!
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post #1126 of 1466 Old 12-05-2018, 01:50 PM
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Thanks, the review itself is very good with all the direct comparisons to the 760/885. The lens really is an improvement at the edges, but it seems Ekki would suggest disabling DFO. Very good read.

Added: Provided the exposure is the same, the star field is much improved. I recall a previous review of the 760/885 complaining about missing stars compared to other projectors. Although this may not be the same scene, the improvement shown is significant.

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I don't speak German but here are few points I was able to fish thanks to google translate.
This is not a full review of the 870 but rather a face-off vs 760 since they are more similar than different, with focus on 2 elements the 870 has which should produce an improvement in comparison to last year's 760:
Image sharpness -due to the new sharper lens and new electronics.
Contrast- dual iris and dimming system intended to increase the contrast while lumens improved,
and how were both compare to the older 5000 flagship model.
Four different 870 units were compared to a new 760, I tried to convey Ekki's personal impressions (highlighted) yet this "quotes" should be taken with a grain of salt, or lost in translation if you will:
1. 870 has 150 more lumens -2050 in average, calibrated it is 1900 vs 1780.visible but Subtle
4200 calibrated on flagship 5000.
2. Iris and laser dimming work together on 870 yet cannot be controlled separately becomes visible only in very dark scenes,slightly better black level.
3. Native contrast of the 870 ranges between 14,000: 1 and 23,000: 1 depending on the zoom and color temperature selected,dynamic contrast 30,000: 1 to 50,000: 1 not calibrated. Differences are subtle,in very dark scenes.
4. Lens sharpness on 870-image center similar to 760 even from close distance viewing.
760 lens is actually better than its reputation(Ekkis version of silver lining... )
Image sharpness on corners- better sharpness and micro-details on 870.differences are rather subtle
5. Digital Focus Optimizer on the 870 produces unwanted side effects-can create artifacts similar to dithering, in some scenes image can also lose depth. Sony wanted to create a wow effect but should have adopted less is more approach.

Conclusion by Ekki
little more...
Brightness, black level, edge sharpness, yet the 870 does not manage to distinguish itself from his smaller brother the 760 which reaches 95% of 870,that leaves you to wonder does this worth the additional 10,000 Euros ?
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Yes, i think that sums it up well. 30k to 50k dynamic seems low to me but i will have to wait and see for myself soon. Guess i will hang on to my VW550 another year and hope that Sony can find a way to crank up contrast even more.
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post #1129 of 1466 Old 12-05-2018, 04:04 PM
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@Here 2C

Yes, i think that sums it up well. 30k to 50k dynamic seems low to me but i will have to wait and see for myself soon. Guess i will hang on to my VW550 another year and hope that Sony can find a way to crank up contrast even more.
This might not be the model year I throw down big on a new Sony projector either.

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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
Thanks, the review itself is very good with all the direct comparisons to the 760/885. The lens really is an improvement at the edges, but it seems Ekki would suggest disabling DFO. Very good read.

Added: Provided the exposure is the same, the star field is much improved. I recall a previous review of the 760/885 complaining about missing stars compared to other projectors. Although this may not be the same scene, the improvement shown is significant.
I think the blacks looked more washed out in that star field vs the 760es (in his photos). But I guess that star field wasnt the best selection as it didnt have a lot of black in it.

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Well one area where it definitely comes closer to the 5000 than the 885 is the box!

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How does it look, Joe!? Don’t keep us in suspense.

Over in Australia, the distributor told me one 870 went missing in transit.
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post #1134 of 1466 Old 12-05-2018, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
How does it look, Joe!? Don’t keep us in suspense.

Over in Australia, the distributor told me one 870 went missing in transit.
I am about finished with my Review.

I will say I am very impressed. Having all three here has helped make some good comparisons and observations. The 995 definitely deserves its own category...
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post #1135 of 1466 Old 12-05-2018, 09:53 PM
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So color space coverage the same on the new model. Odd they didn't go for 100% with a DCI color filter.
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post #1136 of 1466 Old 12-06-2018, 02:04 AM
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Two opinions yet, one saying that it’s just a bit better than the 760 but somehow doesn’t justify the 10k, the other one saying it’s a step above than the 760.

I’m kinda confused ;-)
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post #1137 of 1466 Old 12-06-2018, 05:12 AM
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Two opinions yet, one saying that it’s just a bit better than the 760 but somehow doesn’t justify the 10k, the other one saying it’s a step above than the 760.

I’m kinda confused ;-)
The Widescreen Review preview said it was significantly better, due to the lens.

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post #1138 of 1466 Old 12-06-2018, 05:14 AM
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Two opinions yet, one saying that it’s just a bit better than the 760 but somehow doesn’t justify the 10k, the other one saying it’s a step above than the 760.

I’m kinda confused ;-)
hasta666,
Can I try and unconfuse you?
For starters Ekki does not say "doesn't justify the 10K", what he actually says- a little more or slightly better 870 is an Ultra-HighEnd variant,and last few percent increase in quality is always the most technically complex and therefore the most expensive(law of diminishing returns if I may add) hence the question of worth is irrelevant for the ones who are aiming at "high end" and willing to pay double for those extra little details....
If I read between the lines correctly this review seems to me as nothing groundbreaking- Same old Bess in a new dress, a relatively harsh review bordering blasphemy from a (recently) Sony biased aficionado such as Ekki, I am not familiar with joerod but from what I can see he carries Sony mostly...
I would be extra cautious before I spend that sum of money on the 870, yet we should not throw out the baby with the bath water we should be wiser and wait for other reviews, I personally wait for Kris' take on it, in the meanwhile I avoid nagging him

Last edited by Here 2C; 12-06-2018 at 05:31 AM.
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post #1139 of 1466 Old 12-06-2018, 05:29 AM
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I am going to have a chance to preview the 870 soon.

But this video shows the difference... i honestly don't see much of it...

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post #1140 of 1466 Old 12-06-2018, 05:50 AM
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hasta666,

I would be extra cautious before I spend that sum of money on the 870
Especially because the JVC 8K eShift might (first impressions on tradeshows point in that direction) even be better and much cheaper...
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