SONY VPL-VW870ES VPL-VW995ES 4K Laser Projector | Anticipation Thread - Page 39 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1141 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I am going to have a chance to preview the 870 soon.

But this video shows the difference... i honestly don't see much of it...
I don't notice any difference in that video. But that probably doesn't mean there isn't any just that the video of a projector is a poor way to demo its contrast, brightness, and sharpness.

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post #1142 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't notice any difference in that video. But that probably doesn't mean there isn't any just that the video of a projector is a poor way to demo its contrast, brightness, and sharpness.
Agreed. It's not a good way... but it at least shows you the 'difference' if any...

The only difference that is worth anything really is the dynamic iris... (I honestly don't think the arc-f lense does much).

So, in that respect, what I notice in this comparison is that the 870 gets darker... and crushes some blacks...
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post #1143 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Agreed. It's not a good way... but it at least shows you the 'difference' if any...

The only difference that is worth anything really is the dynamic iris... (I honestly don't think the arc-f lense does much).

So, in that respect, what I notice in this comparison is that the 870 gets darker... and crushes some blacks...
Agreed. I bet in real life the 870 has better black performance and doesn't look like its crushing blacks the way it does on that video. In theory, the combination of dynamic iris plus dynamic dimming could yield some really awesome performance. Anxious for reputable unbiased review.
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Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #1144 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Agreed. It's not a good way... but it at least shows you the 'difference' if any...

The only difference that is worth anything really is the dynamic iris... (I honestly don't think the arc-f lense does much).

So, in that respect, what I notice in this comparison is that the 870 gets darker... and crushes some blacks...
No, the lens is definitely making a noticeable difference. Sharpness takes a good step forward, when compared side by side.
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post #1145 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
No, the lens is definitely making a noticeable difference. Sharpness takes a good step forward, when compared side by side.
Can't wait for more side by side comparisons... Sony is also have a launch even in my city this month... i'll definitely take a look
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post #1146 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 08:51 AM
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I have already seen the VW870. Actually I unpacked and installed one of them 2 weeks ago. So I could spend a bit of time on it. As a VW760 owner that was easy to do. First impressions: very well balanced projector, great picture quality can be achieved when setp is choosen well (with a matching screen and room). Not surpringly it was immediatelly obvious that the 870 projects a typical Sony picture : calm, sharp, great contrast. Extemely pleasing to my eye and very cinematic. So it reminded me immediately why I prefer a native 4K beamer to all those eshifters. Unforunatelly I could not compare it 1:1 with a VW760 yet. So I have just checked several difficult movie clips to see how the 870 would master those. I could not tell that contrast or blacks were any better than those of the 760. With more time at hand and in a 1:1 comparison the difference will probably be detectable but like Ekki noticed rather on the "subtle" side. At least this is what I would assume based on my first impressions.

I am now considering an upgrade ?
This year was a great business year for me and so I'd have some money at hand to spend for a toy like that. The answer is however a simple No. Comparing my setup with my 760 and the setup the 870 was shown: frankly speaking I'd prefer the picture at my place to what I saw then..This is due to the lack of brightness on the screen that was used with the 870. Of course the 870 is principally the better projector as it does several things a little bit better as Ekki has outlined. However I do not miss in my setup the better lense since this becomes more important for bigger screens only. And this is my biggest point versus the 870: the concept is not really convincing to me. Too little brightness for such an expensive lense. Similar problem like the Z1. IMO the practical advantage over the 760 can not be realized in most setups including mine to justify the price difference for most 760 owners. But if you have the money and just fancy a new toy: why not ? There is nothing wrong with that beamer as far as I could see. Congratulation to all future owners from my side.

Tomorrow I will see an 870, 760 and NX9 side by side. All setup by Ekki. So I am sure that everything is set up properly. Looking forward to a great time
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post #1147 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post


Tomorrow I will see an 870, 760 and NX9 side by side. All setup by Ekki. So I am sure that everything is set up properly. Looking forward to a great time
Looking forward to your report about that great time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Tomorrow I will see an 870, 760 and NX9 side by side. All setup by Ekki. So I am sure that everything is set up properly. Looking forward to a great time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Looking forward to your report about that great time
+1! In the RS3000 anticipation thread, @woofer has an NX9 side-by-side with his Z1, x9900 and a friends 760.
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post #1149 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
No. I'm saying that we cant trust manufacturers on their specs for bulbs. Whatever they spec them to, they clearly are not lasting nearly as long. Therefore, I cant trust that same manufacturer on his specs for lasers. What I can do is translate it. If his 6000 hour bulb lasts ~1500-2000 hours, then his 20000 hour laser probably lasts 5000-10000 hours. If his 6000 hour bulb can tank at 800 hours in some rare but not unheard of cases, then his 20000 hour laser can tank at 2000 hours in some rare and unheard of cases.


People seem to think bulbs that are rated at 6000 hours are 1500 or so hours and flaky but lasers rated at 20000 hours are 20000 hours or more solid.
I don't believe it until we see them lasting 20000 or so hours.

Nonsense. If anything, its the ramp up and ramp down that is hard on a bulb. Running it long periods of time is better for it. This much is common knowledge.
markmon 1,
Well my good-man I'll be one of the end users with the 4500 that will be posting on what I think as time marches by.
I will actually be watching my HT for sure a lot and especially after Chad B comes this next Friday and does Both the Audio & Video Custom Calibrations.
But ………….
Even in my case it will be (Hopefully-Fingers-Crossed) for me to have thousands and thousands of hours on mine.
I'm thinking based on my previous Runco projectors use I think I will have somewhere around 1,800 to 2,000 hours a year on the RS4500.
If your really interested just check-out my main thread or also the JVC RS4500 dedicated thread.
I'm not one of those people that cares to {Hide} what actually takes place I can assure you.
However being brutally honest I don't have any light-measuring-gear so all my comments will simply be with what I see with my eyes.
So, ^^^ in my case what I post on picture Brightness will be of probably little to no use or benefit to this Scientific AVS Internet Site.


Terry
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JVC RS4500 Laser Projector:
My "New" Home Theater Up-Dates with Pictures, March 6th, 2019 .
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...st-2018-a.html

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post #1150 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I have already seen the VW870. Actually I unpacked and installed one of them 2 weeks ago. So I could spend a bit of time on it. As a VW760 owner that was easy to do. First impressions: very well balanced projector, great picture quality can be achieved when setp is choosen well (with a matching screen and room). Not surpringly it was immediatelly obvious that the 870 projects a typical Sony picture : calm, sharp, great contrast. Extemely pleasing to my eye and very cinematic. So it reminded me immediately why I prefer a native 4K beamer to all those eshifters. Unforunatelly I could not compare it 1:1 with a VW760 yet. So I have just checked several difficult movie clips to see how the 870 would master those. I could not tell that contrast or blacks were any better than those of the 760. With more time at hand and in a 1:1 comparison the difference will probably be detectable but like Ekki noticed rather on the "subtle" side. At least this is what I would assume based on my first impressions.

I am now considering an upgrade ?
This year was a great business year for me and so I'd have some money at hand to spend for a toy like that. The answer is however a simple No. Comparing my setup with my 760 and the setup the 870 was shown: frankly speaking I'd prefer the picture at my place to what I saw then..This is due to the lack of brightness on the screen that was used with the 870. Of course the 870 is principally the better projector as it does several things a little bit better as Ekki has outlined. However I do not miss in my setup the better lense since this becomes more important for bigger screens only. And this is my biggest point versus the 870: the concept is not really convincing to me. Too little brightness for such an expensive lense. Similar problem like the Z1. IMO the practical advantage over the 760 can not be realized in most setups including mine to justify the price difference for most 760 owners. But if you have the money and just fancy a new toy: why not ? There is nothing wrong with that beamer as far as I could see. Congratulation to all future owners from my side.

Tomorrow I will see an 870, 760 and NX9 side by side. All setup by Ekki. So I am sure that everything is set up properly. Looking forward to a great time
And this is exactly why I don't care about the Arc-F lense in this new projector. The lense in the 760 is already so good, I really doubt ppl will see any real life difference unless you're projecting on a huge screen and purposely stand close by to view the pixels. Plus, in this case, improving the lense without also adding the lumens defeats the purpose if you ask me... Sony essentially slap in a new lens, activated the iris, and made it into a 10K more expensive projector... I can understand it as a business perspective, but it's literally the same projector... Now, if they have increased the lumens to 3000, then it might be worth it... right now, with just 2200 lumens, 1900 calibrated, you're stuck with a smaller screen (for HDR), and the lens will just not be a factor.

A bigger screen, means you're sitting further away, which then make it less likely you will see any improvement on the lense if any...

At some point, the lense quality will only be on paper... better numbers but would not matter in real life... just like expensive Amps...

I have btw seen the Z1 and the 760. Within this month i'll be able to check out the 870 as well...
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post #1151 of 1465 Old 12-06-2018, 10:03 PM
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Makes me wonder if a 885 paired with a Lumagen Pro is money better spent... Making myself feel better having this combo. Lol Maybe Sony should have just skipped the 885. I do love laser for sure. SJ
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post #1152 of 1465 Old 12-07-2018, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
+1! In the RS3000 anticipation thread, @woofer has an NX9 side-by-side with his Z1, x9900 and a friends 760.
Could you please add a link? I think I found the thread, but there are a gazillion posts in it;-)
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post #1153 of 1465 Old 12-07-2018, 06:49 AM
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Could you please add a link? I think I found the thread, but there are a gazillion posts in it;-)
Several different posts. You can search using his name. Here is one of the posts, but it may not be what you are specifically looking for, because it is not a comparison with the 760/885.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57194244
Woofer compares more to his RS4500, than he does to his friends 760, but he does have all three in his room at the same time.

Only found this regarding 760.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
woofer- How does it compare to the Sony 760ES? What did your friend think of the comparison?

By Woofer:
He is torn ..... Laser or the many good points of the NX9..

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post #1154 of 1465 Old 12-07-2018, 11:56 AM
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Made in China?! Really?
Mine just arrived. First impression - it’s big but the box was a bit damaged and it’s not Made in Japan!!? For $35k, this should have been made in Japan, not China.
I’m not anti-Chinese at all. But we all know Japan is a better place in the world to manufacture.
Hmm...
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I have just received mine vw870 today. He will take the place of a vw760 🙂.
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post #1156 of 1465 Old 12-07-2018, 12:44 PM
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Could you please add a link? I think I found the thread, but there are a gazillion posts in it;-)
Not to clutter this thread but since your interested..

I think the 760ES is a terrific projector...as i have stated many times i think it cops an unnecessary amount of flak.

Until the NX9 , the 760ES was the projector i would have if i didnt have the Z1.......BUT the NX9 change changed that.

I still prefer my Z1, then the NX9...then 760ES....ALL throw wonderful images , but thats my order of preference.

The NX9 is sharper than the 760ES .....the lens is far better on the NX9...end of story.

Contrast is better on the NX9.....The "Laser Dimming" on the 760ES is IMO very poor.....if Sony could improve it along the lines of the Z1, i think it would help the 760ES immensely.

NX9 is "slightly" brighter, BUT will dim ......the 760ES wont for some time.

The "Auto tone mapping" on the NX9 will be a godsend for some people..
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post #1157 of 1465 Old 12-07-2018, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
And this is exactly why I don't care about the Arc-F lense in this new projector. The lense in the 760 is already so good, I really doubt ppl will see any real life difference unless you're projecting on a huge screen and purposely stand close by to view the pixels. Plus, in this case, improving the lense without also adding the lumens defeats the purpose if you ask me... Sony essentially slap in a new lens, activated the iris, and made it into a 10K more expensive projector... I can understand it as a business perspective, but it's literally the same projector... Now, if they have increased the lumens to 3000, then it might be worth it... right now, with just 2200 lumens, 1900 calibrated, you're stuck with a smaller screen (for HDR), and the lens will just not be a factor.

A bigger screen, means you're sitting further away, which then make it less likely you will see any improvement on the lense if any...

At some point, the lense quality will only be on paper... better numbers but would not matter in real life... just like expensive Amps...

I have btw seen the Z1 and the 760. Within this month i'll be able to check out the 870 as well...
Both the Widescreen Review and the German review have confirmed that the all glass lens makes a big difference.
I think the 760 should have had it all along.
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post #1158 of 1465 Old 12-07-2018, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Both the Widescreen Review and the German review have confirmed that the all glass lens makes a big difference.
I think the 760 should have had it all along.
At 25K here in the US, I agree.
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post #1159 of 1465 Old 12-07-2018, 07:19 PM
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Can someone explain how Auto Calibration works? Sony doesn’t provide a paper owners manual, the manual comes on CDROM. Huh?! I guess at $35k they can’t afford to print an owners manual?
Haven’t seen the manual posted online either.

Anyway, curious to know how the Auto Calibration works.

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post #1160 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Both the Widescreen Review and the German review have confirmed that the all glass lens makes a big difference.
I think the 760 should have had it all along.
I agree they should have the 870 instead of the 760... no point having both... but at the price point of the 760.

As for whether all glass makes a difference in perceivability at normal watching distance especially when the lumens output of the 870 guarantees a smaller screen, it's debatable.. but if it were 3000 lumens, with bigger screen, i also agree!

If Epson at $2.5k can have all glass lens, i don't see why the Sony couldn't... the cost of those lens are a tiny drop compared to the MSRP of the projector.
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post #1161 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 12:59 AM
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Both the Widescreen Review and the German review have confirmed that the all glass lens makes a big difference.
I think the 760 should have had it all along.
Which German review are you referring to ?
Clearly Ekki's impression is- difference in sharpness is subtle.
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post #1162 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 03:37 AM
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Looking forward to your report about that great time
Actually my time was even better than I had expected. After a short trip and traveling trough some of Switzerland's most picturesque regions together with a friend of mine we could see a VW760, VW870 and a N9X. Side by side in a completely optimized black room. Screen material was about gain 1.0 and its width was only 2.5 meter.

There were not too many people there. I think hardly more than 10 at the same time. But as a Swiss I'd say: quality beats quantity. Ekki Schmitt from C4H was also there. So I knew the projecotrs would be set up as good as possible. Every aspect that makes up a great picture was analyzed with appropriate test and demo material. Everything was tried to squeeze the best out of these beamers. All settings were transparent. Any question was answered and any suggestion for a setting followed. Beeing a rather experienced user I appreciated that tremendously.

Now I guess most people - particularly in the VW995 thread - would probably like to know whether the VW995 is worth the higher price compared to the 760 and also NX9. I think everyone has to answer that question individually based on his setup at home. What I could say as a general and summarizing remark: we all agreed yesterday that in a blind test most people including us would most likely to have a very difficult time to tell which projector was actually running. In most cases I could only tell it was the 870 because it was brighter than the other 2. With HDR I could tell it was the NX9 as it projected slightly better blacks in low ADL scenes than the 2 Sony. But unfortunatelly the NX9 was also the darkest in mixed scenes. Sometimes I wished also to see better differentiation close to black.

Could you tell the better lense ? Yes, but only in still pictures but not during a running movie. Interestingly: we compared a Windows folder with several file names. Tiny black fonts on white background. Text was more distinct and better to read on both of the Sony. Even at the edge. However if you did a test with white writings on dark background the NX9 was better.
So much to the better lense ...

Is the Digital Focus Optimizer any good ?
No from what i could see. It is rather adding artifacts than improving sharpness. The lense 870 does not need that IMO. So rather a marketing gag. Which reminds me directly of 8-shift. I could not see any benefit when engaged with the NX9.

Generally and from a personal point of view I would have liked the brightness level for HDR material to be higher than what I saw yesterday. This applies to all 3 of them. The 760 and 870 were run at Laser 100 for HDR and the JVC at high lamp mode. Personaly I use a screen of gain 1.3 to 1.4 (about). An Oppo was used and having a Panasonic ub9004 at home and having seen MadVR feeding a VW760 I think there would some potential left. But it was the same for all projectors yesterday. The Sony have the advantage of the Contrast Enhancer that helps with brightness. Ekki is using that with excellent results for HDR. The filter of the JVC costs about 21% brightness - too much for me. I clearly prefer the Sony approach without filter but less DCI-P3 coverage. Therefore with the JVC I would disable the filter.

We had a look at low ADL scenes. For example The Revenant end of chapter 4. Here you could tell that contrast was best with the NX9 despite diffentiation still could be better. The 870 was not far behind - particularly when we disabled the filter with the NX9. Of course this leads directly to the question of native contrast numbers. Ekki announced some measurements to be published by him pretty soon. I don't kow what he has measured but I would guess that the native contrast of the JVc will be around 1:30 K without any iris tricks. Some data that were already published by some reviewres look at least reasonable to me. Native contrast of 870 / 760 will likely be identical . Only dynamic contrast will be different due to the iris. For ANSI contrast figues I am particularly curious.

In Sitzerland the VW570 costs 8.3 K CHF, the VW760 costs CHF 15 K, The NX9 is 20K and the 870 is 26 K.
I exspect the VW570 to deliver about the same picture as the 760. So the laser is about 7 K CHF. Based on that the pricing here seems reasonable to me at least. Personaly I would never go back to a lamp based projector. One of the reason is the loudness. The NX9 on high lamp was clearly too loud for me and my setup. It is not better than the X7000 that I had. This was a bit disappointing considering the much bigger sitze. Of course still not so bad like the Z1 but inaccetable for me on high lamp mode. There is also some noise coming from the iris of the NX9 but this might be a preseries related issue.

So the 870 confirmed my first impression of a well balanced projector with hardly any major deficiences. It squizzess out some potential that the 760 has left. From a personal point of view as a VW760 owner the practical value of the improvements are rather neglectable. My only major point for potential improvement is that you can not set the iris to a user definded value. This would be a highly welcome feature for SDR material from my point of view. Maybe next generation.
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Last edited by *Mori*; 12-08-2018 at 03:57 AM.
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post #1163 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 03:55 AM
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That must have been a great time, thx Mori for the comparison.

If the NX9 is already darker in HDR than the 995ES with a new bulb, how about 300-500 hours later? What about the NX9´s contrast after 500 hours usage?
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post #1164 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 03:58 AM
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Which reminds me directly of 8-shift. I could see any benefit when installed with the NX9.
You "could" or "could not" see any benefit of the 8k shift?
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post #1165 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 04:05 AM
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This preseries NX9 had 214 hours on the bulp when I remember correctly. Of course I can not say much about how usual brightness decrease will be specifically with the new series . As I said lamp based projectors are out for me because of loudness and also because I generally prefer a brighter picture. Lamps are not helping. But this just my point of view and I am very sure some people will disagree on that.

P.S. I could not see any benefit of 8K-Eshift.
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post #1166 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 04:14 AM
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That´s why I will never go back to a lamp based projector. The 995 is even brighter and at same time quieter than the 885. I love the comfort of turning the laser quickly on and off.
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post #1167 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 04:30 AM
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I guess I’m fine with my 760 for a couple of years at least.
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post #1168 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
That must have been a great time, thx Mori for the comparison.

If the NX9 is already darker in HDR than the 995ES with a new bulb, how about 300-500 hours later? What about the NX9´s contrast after 500 hours usage?
On the NX9 with its tone mapping, you should be able to just up the tone mapping target and get a brighter image.

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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
This preseries NX9 had 214 hours on the bulp when I remember correctly. Of course I can not say much about how usual brightness decrease will be specifically with the new series . As I said lamp based projectors are out for me because of loudness and also because I generally prefer a brighter picture. Lamps are not helping. But this just my point of view and I am very sure some people will disagree on that.

P.S. I could not see any benefit of 8K-Eshift.
Yea, I suspect that 8K eshift is going to be basically worthless and kept off. The unit Ekki had last review was preproduction, and the dynamic iris wasn't enabled on that firmware yet. Does he still have the same unit?

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post #1169 of 1465 Old 12-08-2018, 05:04 AM
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Which German review are you referring to ?
Clearly Ekki's impression is- difference in sharpness is subtle.
The Widescreen Review First Look gushed about how the lens makes a shockingly big difference.

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The Widescreen Review First Look gushed about how the lens makes a shockingly big difference.
I also thought(wishful thinking) that the ARC-F lens would make a bigger difference, turns out it ain't necessarily so...
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