SONY VPL-VW870ES VPL-VW995ES 4K Laser Projector | Anticipation Thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1171 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Here 2C View Post
I also thought(wishful thinking) that the ARC-F lens would make a bigger difference, turns out it ain't necessarily so...
According to WSR the ARC-F makes a huge difference. The lens is massive!

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post #1172 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 05:45 AM
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@markmon1
JVC did not tell where this unit had been before. It was sent from JVC directly and not brought by Ekki. According to the local dealer who organized the event this specific NX9 currently shown this weekend is different to the one they had in November. That is the only thing I could say about that. I only learnt this by chance since this point was raised during a break.

So the iris was working yeasterday. But not perfectly well because the dimming came always a bit late. I assume that this will be fixed with the production series units. Besides that there were a couple of issues with the NX9. But those had no impact IMO on the picture quality. Otherwise I would have menztioned it. This belongs also not to that thread.

Settings were optimized particularly well for The Revenant. Quite some time was invested by Ekki to make the NX9 to look as good as possible. Brightness was at the edge. Clipping lower would have resulted in a loss in diffentiation in the brighter parts. I am sure without Ekki beeing there the NX9 would have looked considerably worse.
The JVC Auto Tone mapping was not working. However and speaking openly: As a Panasonic UB9004 owner I have not much credit for JVC to imply that properly. IMO JVC has neither the manpower nor the expertice to do that properly. I remember Gamma D very well.

Last edited by *Mori*; 12-08-2018 at 05:50 AM.
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post #1173 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
That´s why I will never go back to a lamp based projector. The 995 is even brighter and at same time quieter than the 885. I love the comfort of turning the laser quickly on and off.
I can confirm the 995 is very quiet. Much less than Sony’s specs would indicate.

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post #1174 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 06:26 AM
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According to WSR the ARC-F makes a huge difference. The lens is massive!
Massive as in size ? form factor is a plus not a guarantee for quality...
It is indeed a great lens the best Sony has to offer, yet all things considered we should pay attention to the identity of the reviewer (TBH,not familiar with).
I am not subscribed and haven't read the review in WSR, I am positive that the 870 is a great projector, but if Ekki who tends to favor Sony in recent years concluded subtle difference vs the 760 well, let us wait for more impressions and reviews,*Mori*'s take for example coincides with Ekki's.
I would wait for someone like Kris Deering to substantiate, few more weeks is nothing given the fact JVC is out of the game till February at least.
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post #1175 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 06:33 AM
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Size “does matter” when it comes to lens quality. As described in the WSR article. What hasn’t been mentioned is the better focus if shifting the lens. Since the center of the lens is larger, you are closer to the center “sweet spot” even after shifting.
I have my lens shifted all the way down, and I can’t see any lack of sharpness, unless I’m looking at the screen from 1” away.

Another thing: Mori’s take seems to indicate the dynamic iris is not user adjustable; but that’s not the case. Perhaps my unit has more recent firmware. I’ll post a photo later today.

Overall, all the reviews indicate the 995 is the best project in its category. That was my conclusion from Mori’s, Ekki’s, and WSR. WSR called it a “future classic”, that’s how noticeable the improvement is.

It’s completely other matter if you think it’s worth an upgrade over the 760. I don’t have a 760 and have never seen it; but I doubt I would spend $10k+ to upgrade.

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post #1176 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 06:46 AM
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What´s your firmware? 3.000?
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post #1177 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Size “does matter” when it comes to lens quality. As described in the WSR article. What hasn’t been mentioned is the better focus if shifting the lens. Since the center of the lens is larger, you are closer to the center “sweet spot” even after shifting.
I have my lens shifted all the way down, and I can’t see any lack of sharpness, unless I’m looking at the screen from 1” away.

Another thing: Mori’s take seems to indicate the dynamic iris is not user adjustable; but that’s not the case. Perhaps my unit has more recent firmware. I’ll post a photo later today.

Overall, all the reviews indicate the 995 is the best project in its category. That was my conclusion from Mori’s, Ekki’s, and WSR. WSR called it a “future classic”, that’s how noticeable the improvement is.

It’s completely other matter if you think it’s worth an upgrade over the 760. I don’t have a 760 and have never seen it; but I doubt I would spend $10k+ to upgrade.
I'll reiterate- Size is a plus=advantage="Does Matter" god is in the details,those many subtle/slight advantages in high end projector would help one determine of his favorite,subjectively.
I would not go as far as to determine the 870 "best in category",which category ? price point,laser vs laser,flagship vs flagship ? that certainly did not what *Mori* said or Ekki compared directly in his review, did WSR compare it to Z1?
Anyways, please feel free to share your impressions, Congratulations for your purchase ! I hope you enjoy it and wish I had one unit at my disposal.
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post #1178 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 07:02 AM
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Mori did say the 995ES was the best balanced out of the group.
Quote:
With HDR I could tell it was the NX9 as it projected slightly better blacks in low ADL scenes than the 2 Sony. But unfortunatelly the NX9 was also the darkest in mixed scenes.
Quote:
So the 870 confirmed my first impression of a well balanced projector with hardly any major deficiences. It squizzess out some potential that the 760 has left.
Finally, and again, I don’t think the ARC-F lens difference is subtle at all. I agree with WSR’s findings. I am using a small 100” screen. I don’t have a 760 to compare against, but the sharpness is uniform and extends corner to corner, and I have my lens vertically shifted all the way down. Perhaps with zero lens shift the difference in sharpness is less?

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post #1179 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Mori did say the 995ES was the best balanced out of the group.
I was about to tell you, you are wrong but you edited , It was not the Z1 but rather the NX-9- half priced projector pre-production unit ,small screen.*Mori* preferred the 870 maybe I would have too some might prefer the NX-9 in time with his better blacks and lens with screen big enough to show those differences we'll have to wait and see.
Someone mentioned earlier that the real comparison is between 870 vs Z1, both are laser and same price point,though the Z1 is older noisier and bigger PQ wise I think Z1 will be on par if not edge in more ways than one.
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post #1180 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 07:27 AM
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Yes, I corrected it, thanks!

Can someone explain to me how the Auto Calibration works? I haven’t seen anything online. I assume it’s used in the 760 and other models...

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post #1181 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
According to WSR the ARC-F makes a huge difference. The lens is massive!
I thought Ekki's photos showed noticeable improvement. However there does appear to be a lens lottery on the lower models, and the difference may be huge to negible. The quick brown fox photos that enricocluadio posted of his 295 look like an excellent sample.

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Besides that there were a couple of issues with the NX9. But those had no impact IMO on the picture quality. Otherwise I would have menztioned it. This belongs also not to that thread.
Will you be posting your thoughts in the NX9/RS3000 anticipation thread?

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This preseries NX9 had 214 hours on the bulp when I remember correctly. Of course I can not say much about how usual brightness decrease will be specifically with the new series . As I said lamp based projectors are out for me because of loudness and also because I generally prefer a brighter picture. Lamps are not helping. But this just my point of view and I am very sure some people will disagree on that.
Was the filter always in place (BT2020 preset rather than HDR preset)? Or was it still dimmer than the 870 even without the filter? I believe without the filter the color spaces should be similar (thought volume may be better with the laser).

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post #1182 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 10:26 AM
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Now I guess most people - particularly in the VW995 thread - would probably like to know whether the VW995 is worth the higher price compared to the 760 and also NX9. I think everyone has to answer that question individually based on his setup at home. What I could say as a general and summarizing remark: we all agreed yesterday that in a blind test most people including us would most likely to have a very difficult time to tell which projector was actually running. In most cases I could only tell it was the 870 because it was brighter than the other 2. With HDR I could tell it was the NX9 as it projected slightly better blacks in low ADL scenes than the 2 Sony. But unfortunatelly the NX9 was also the darkest in mixed scenes. Sometimes I wished also to see better differentiation close to black.
Very interesting read, thanks for sharing

Can you say anything about how the NX9 image looked in comparison to the Sony in terms of calmness and overall motion?
I have always found that the image from the older JVC lamp models looks a bit "worried" compared to the Sonys who have a very calm and natural looking image. After reading some of the early impressions of the JVC NX models, it seems that they are more like Sony in this regard. Any comment on that?
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post #1183 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 03:55 PM
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With HDR I could tell it was the NX9 as it projected slightly better blacks in low ADL scenes than the 2 Sony. But unfortunatelly the NX9 was also the darkest in mixed scenes. Sometimes I wished also to see better differentiation close to black.

Could you tell the better lense ? Yes, but only in still pictures but not during a running movie. Interestingly: we compared a Windows folder with several file names. Tiny black fonts on white background. Text was more distinct and better to read on both of the Sony. Even at the edge. However if you did a test with white writings on dark background the NX9 was better.
So much to the better lense ...

Thank you for this information. I'm presently a Sony owner but have the NX9 in my sights. It seems like you're saying that whatever advantage the lens had was lost in motion; is that for the NX9 only or the 995 as well?

Speaking of motion, which of the three showed the best native motion handling?

Lastly, I'm expecting to see posterization on my 695ES soon enough as reports say the new Sonys still have the issue. So my last question to you is did you see any posterization/solarization on the 995?
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post #1184 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 04:18 PM
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Very interesting read, thanks for sharing

Can you say anything about how the NX9 image looked in comparison to the Sony in terms of calmness and overall motion?
I have always found that the image from the older JVC lamp models looks a bit "worried" compared to the Sonys who have a very calm and natural looking image. After reading some of the early impressions of the JVC NX models, it seems that they are more like Sony in this regard. Any comment on that?
isnt this also due to the NR sony employ ? that still cant be bypass as highlighted by vincent of hdtv talking about the 570ES

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post #1185 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 04:35 PM
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isnt this also due to the NR sony employ ? that still cant be bypass as highlighted by vincent of hdtv talking about the 570ES
Yes, but Sony does it very well. I think its some of the best processing I've ever seen. I set up some pre-processing in madVR that calms / sharpens the image slightly in a very similar way to what I had on the Sony 675ES with its reality creation.

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That must have been a great time, thx Mori for the comparison.

If the NX9 is already darker in HDR than the 995ES with a new bulb, how about 300-500 hours later? What about the NX9´s contrast after 500 hours usage?
From what Mori posted, it sounded like the NX9 was run with the DCI P3 filter in place, costing the projector brightness. You do have the option to remove the filter for added brightness and the NX9 still does as wide a color space as the 760/870.
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post #1187 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
This preseries NX9 had 214 hours on the bulp when I remember correctly. Of course I can not say much about how usual brightness decrease will be specifically with the new series . As I said lamp based projectors are out for me because of loudness and also because I generally prefer a brighter picture. Lamps are not helping. But this just my point of view and I am very sure some people will disagree on that.

P.S. I could not see any benefit of 8K-Eshift.
The NX9 is louder in high lamp than the 760/870 at 100% laser output? That does not sound right. Now the Sony at less than 80% is pretty quiet. Or is the 995 quieter than the 885? It was too noisy at CEDIA to judge any of these projectors, sound wise.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 12-08-2018 at 05:15 PM.
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post #1188 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 05:05 PM
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@markmon1
JVC did not tell where this unit had been before. It was sent from JVC directly and not brought by Ekki. According to the local dealer who organized the event this specific NX9 currently shown this weekend is different to the one they had in November. That is the only thing I could say about that. I only learnt this by chance since this point was raised during a break.

So the iris was working yeasterday. But not perfectly well because the dimming came always a bit late. I assume that this will be fixed with the production series units. Besides that there were a couple of issues with the NX9. But those had no impact IMO on the picture quality. Otherwise I would have menztioned it. This belongs also not to that thread.

Settings were optimized particularly well for The Revenant. Quite some time was invested by Ekki to make the NX9 to look as good as possible. Brightness was at the edge. Clipping lower would have resulted in a loss in diffentiation in the brighter parts. I am sure without Ekki beeing there the NX9 would have looked considerably worse.
The JVC Auto Tone mapping was not working. However and speaking openly: As a Panasonic UB9004 owner I have not much credit for JVC to imply that properly. IMO JVC has neither the manpower nor the expertice to do that properly. I remember Gamma D very well.
That is strange. I know of other units with the auto tone mapping working very well? Woofer has one of them.
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post #1189 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Yes, I corrected it, thanks!

Can someone explain to me how the Auto Calibration works? I haven’t seen anything online. I assume it’s used in the 760 and other models...
It is not an actual autocalibration. What it does, after the lamp has aged, it brings the projector back to its original out of the box performance, color wise.
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post #1190 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 05:21 PM
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isnt this also due to the NR sony employ ? that still cant be bypass as highlighted by vincent of hdtv talking about the 570ES


Just a heads up it can be bypassed if you use input lag reduction.
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post #1191 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
isnt this also due to the NR sony employ ? that still cant be bypass as highlighted by vincent of hdtv talking about the 570ES [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Just a heads up it can be bypassed if you use input lag reduction.
as Vincent clearly stated would great if we could “turn all that ***** off” (noise/grain reduction)without giving up on input lag. In any case how many people going to be turning input lag on off all the time. Some of us are precious about grain which Sony seems to minimise in its efforts 🙂

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post #1192 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 07:17 PM
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Yes, I corrected it, thanks!

Can someone explain to me how the Auto Calibration works? I haven’t seen anything online. I assume it’s used in the 760 and other models...
It is not an actual autocalibration. What it does, after the lamp has aged, it brings the projector back to its original out of the box performance, color wise.
But how is that applicable to a laser projector like the 995?
And what does it actually do?

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post #1193 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 09:34 PM
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Just a heads up it can be bypassed if you use input lag reduction.
Is this new? On the 285ES and the 675ES I had, low lag wasn't able to be toggled when you were at 4K. And reality creation was on (and made a difference when moving the sliders) at 4K. Also the lag rating was about the same at 4K vs at 1080p with low lag enabled. (Was very good).

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post #1194 of 1488 Old 12-08-2018, 09:36 PM
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Is this new? On the 285ES and the 675ES I had, low lag wasn't able to be toggled when you were at 4K. And reality creation was on (and made a difference when moving the sliders) at 4K. Also the lag rating was about the same at 4K vs at 1080p with low lag enabled. (Was very good).


Yes. I picked it up from Vincent and his 295 review.
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post #1195 of 1488 Old 12-09-2018, 12:00 AM
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That is strange. I know of other units with the auto tone mapping working very well? Woofer has one of them.
YEP!....works fine on the unit i have here..
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post #1196 of 1488 Old 12-09-2018, 01:08 AM
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isnt this also due to the NR sony employ ? that still cant be bypass as highlighted by vincent of hdtv talking about the 570ES
No, what i am referring to has nothing to do with the amount of grain in the image. It’s kind of pointless to try and describe the effect to someone who hasn’t had the opportunity to see them in a side by side comparison. And even then, i don’t believe everyone is bothered by it but i have always preferred the Sony image due to this micro flickering or whatever i should call it on the JVCs. I think part of the reason is the video processing which is better in my opinion on the Sonys but i can’t say for sure why the difference.
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post #1197 of 1488 Old 12-09-2018, 02:11 AM
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The NX9 is louder in high lamp than the 760/870 at 100% laser output? That does not sound right. Now the Sony at less than 80% is pretty quiet. Or is the 995 quieter than the 885? It was too noisy at CEDIA to judge any of these projectors, sound wise.
The 995 is very quiet. A lot quieter than my previous 885 and all lamp based 4k projectors from Sony that I have ever had. Especially the noisy fan between 80-100 for laser setting from the 885ES is gone.
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post #1198 of 1488 Old 12-09-2018, 02:18 AM
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From what Mori posted, it sounded like the NX9 was run with the DCI P3 filter in place, costing the projector brightness. You do have the option to remove the filter for added brightness and the NX9 still does as wide a color space as the 760/870.
That´s a good question wether the filter was in place or not. But even if the filter was in place, it seems that the NX9 will be anyway a darker projector after 300-500 hours of lamp usage, making it not ideal for HDR. Also then it might not being capable of taking full advantage of it´s lense.
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post #1199 of 1488 Old 12-09-2018, 05:43 AM
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Can you say anything about how the NX9 image looked in comparison to the Sony in terms of calmness and overall motion?
I have always found that the image from the older JVC lamp models looks a bit "worried" compared to the Sonys who have a very calm and natural looking image. After reading some of the early impressions of the JVC NX models, it seems that they are more like Sony in this regard. Any comment on that?
Yes, the NX9 that I saw was very calm. I am pretty sensitive for that aspect btw. I remember a calibration weekend with about 15 JVC (mainly X5000, X5500, X7000 and X7500) to be calibrated. I realised then that there was a very considerable unit to unit variation. The noise of some of them were inaccatable for me. Unwatchable. The NX9 that I saw this weekend is by far the calmest JVC that I have ever seen. Practically at the level of Sony. Generally speaking the NX9 impressed me more than any JVC that I have ever seen. Pity it is not a laser beamer.

Motionflow was thorougly tested. I liked both that of Sony and the NX9. Sony tend to skip a frame when motion becomes too fast. In one test clip the 760 with Motionflow on low looked interestingly slightly better than the 870. Of course this could be only interpreted that Sony might have changed the Motionflow slightly. But this needs to be confirmed.

Filter in the NX9 was typically in place for HDR but was regularly inactivated. I think I wrote above that I prefered it without filter. Of course this depends on the setup and personal preference. Since someone here asked about the lamp timer I also realized at only about 200 hours this might have already have an impact. I guess that's one of the points why laser beamer are attractive.

The Auto tone mapping was not working as I wrote. I think a potential explanation might be that movies were fed from a Kaleidescape server. Maybe so metadata are getting lost. But this is just my speculation. Fact is that it did not work. In the production series it will certainly work.
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post #1200 of 1488 Old 12-09-2018, 05:56 AM
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Filter in the NX9 was typically in place for HDR but was regularly inactivated. I think I wrote above that I prefered it without filter. Of course this depends on the setup and personal preference. Since someone here asked about the lamp timer I also realized at only about 200 hours this might have already have an impact. I guess that's one of the points why laser beamer are attractive.
So the NX9 was even without filter darker than the 995ES?
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