SONY VPL-VW870ES VPL-VW995ES 4K Laser Projector | Anticipation Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Last Jedi was another one where the blacks seemed to go up and down almost on a scene by scene basis.
It was like that theatrically though too. I went to see it at a Showcase De Lux, and some of the scenes (inside the huts on the Jedi island was one that sticks in memory) had a dreadfully raised black floor.
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post #122 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
No, its the night-time scene at the start where they rescue/recover Nakia (the female spy) from the truck convoy going through the jungle. Black levels looked raised there to me, for a night scene.
Remind me to put on Black Panther when you next visit...

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I would be tempted to get that 4K disc if it were not for the fact that the kids have made me sit through the blu-ray version about 40 times already!!

Edit: Have you seen Blade Runner 2049? Thats currently amongst my top 3 reference discs now for video and audio - up there with Passengers and Lucy.

Edit 2: Ironically, all three of which are 4K DI's. Coincidence?! I think not.
Blade Runner 2049 is absolutely incredible. My top 2 at the moment for both video and audio are Blade Runner 2049 and The Greatest Showman. Audio on The Greatest Showman is also phenomenal; I'll put it on for you when you next visit Since you will know all the songs by now you can sing along

Passengers and Lucy are also superb, but I've played them to death

4K DI's should be mandatory IMO or at the very least there should be compulsory labelling to illustrate what you are actually buying.

Looking forward to the 8K UHD media with 2K intermediates!
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post #123 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 06:35 AM
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When @ConnecTEDDD convinced me to go to a LUT box for 1080P I didn't realize how much of the benefit would come to the low-end. I had no problem with a raised black floor in BP and in general I now see detail and much more color in low light scenes compared to when I adjusted gamma through the pj itself. At the beginning of the movie when the two soldiers come into the room and then when BP appears there was a big, big difference. Sony kills some of the abilities of these machines with non-exposed and now interactive gamma controls. The LUT box and some of the Marvel movies show how good 1080P can be when done right as does one or two scenes in Jupiter Ascending (which I use as a test case for calibration).

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No, you're right, I watched Blank Panther last night (kind of wish I hadn't as I'm still reeling from the abysmal soundtrack mastering), those opening scenes were bad with a raised black floor, that was in the content too.
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post #124 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 06:43 AM
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I agree with Arrow on this. In this particular scene my black levels aren't raised..that is, not only does it look balanced (and yes, the entire scene is dark) but I can see the detail and color on the EMPS and when the girls are all in the truck you can see the different colors they are wearing...which I could never see before.

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
No, its the night-time scene at the start where they rescue/recover Nakia (the female spy) from the truck convoy going through the jungle. Black levels looked raised there to me, for a night scene.
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post #125 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
I believe this is part of the problem but whether the movie is mastered from a 2K or 4K source it still has to be shot properly. If a shot is out of focus it will won't matter what resolution it was filmed in.

I quickly checked out the attached list of movies and checked for Jumanji:Welcome to the Jungle and it was a fake 4K. Now this surprised me as it has been one of the best movies that I have seen for the picture being in focus. Probably because the actors and film crew knew what they were doing
I loved that movie, Jack Black was awesome. Not to mention that Dwayne Johnson is just a really fun actor to watch. Talk about an unexpected surprise. Didn't really expect too much when I went in.
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post #126 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post
Yes it does usually trickle down and if we had a successor of the 5000 coming up, too we would have heard about it so the question is what Sony will actually release.

Myself I prefer to wait for more official news as this reminds me a bit too much of the 760 where for a very long time it was expected to be more of a true VW1100 successor but then it ended up without an (adressable) Iris and with the lens of the smaller 4k projectors which is perfectly fine but not necessarily what people had ben expecting.
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
There is one possibility that this new model will be the new flagship. Wasn’t the 5000 originally a professional model that got released for home use?

So it might very well have all the features Arrow talked about.
Or it could mean a replacement for the 5000 is also coming, but at a later date.
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post #127 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Remind me to put on Black Panther when you next visit...
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Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
I agree with Arrow on this. In this particular scene my black levels aren't raised..that is, not only does it look balanced (and yes, the entire scene is dark) but I can see the detail and color on the EMPS and when the girls are all in the truck you can see the different colors they are wearing...which I could never see before.
It must have just been the black floor of the PJ causing the issue then, but it certainly didn’t look like other darker scenes in the same film to me.
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post #128 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Have you seen The Greatest Showman? It's as good as it gets... Shot entirely on Arri Alexa digital cameras with resolution levels up to 6K, mastered using a 4K digital intermediate, and I don't think you will find many shots that are out of focus That's how all 4K movies should look!
.
I have only seen the 1080P version but now I am intrigued and will have to check it out
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post #129 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
I believe this is part of the problem but whether the movie is mastered from a 2K or 4K source it still has to be shot properly. If a shot is out of focus it will won't matter what resolution it was filmed in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I know what you're saying about the 'out-of-focus' issue, I notice it much more on 4K content than I ever did on HD, though maybe I'm just looking for issues more. Kingsman Golden Circle had a number of shots that were either partially of completely out of focus.
I am not sure that we are looking for it as much as it is just way more apparent now because of the upgraded resolution to 4K. Before you would be comparing an out of focus shot to a shot that is in focus at 1080P but now you comparing that same shot to a 4K source.
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post #130 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Actually, there's one movie that I also felt hard to watch on the Sony for the same reason as how you mentioned Blade Runner. Multiple scenes in Black panther felt very washed out without the specular detail, the intro scene is a very good example of this. But I wasn't sure if the source itself didn't have a problem because I wasn't very impressed when I tried it on the JVC either. But it might indeed be because my room isn't that great.
Both 4k blu ray discs look great on my Lumagen Radiance Pro & VW5000ES!

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post #131 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Sounds great. Go ahead and point me to that 135" OLED and I'll get that ASAP. Hey, on another note, you can watch star fields on say a JVC RS640 and it looks about as good as said OLED.
Samsung has a 146" The Wall, Sony has a 220" C-LED which has better blacks than OLED. I am sure @ARROW-AV will be happy to sell you either.

I have a RS600 that with irises full closed gives >120K:1 at ~ 400 lumens. I have compared it side by side to my 77G7 OLED and it is not close as far as black level or intensity and variety of levels in the stars.

I am not sure why there is a misunderstanding on why high contrast is important. I am typing this on a Dell UP2715 which is an IPS monitor with ~1,000:1 CR. On the AVS page blacks look inky and whites bright and vivid. However if I tried to view a very very dark scene say < 2% APL then it will all go to hell.
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post #132 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
I get what he's saying tho. Contrast is important, but it's not all important. A good projector has a good balance.
The point I am making is that the projectors we are talking about all have more than enough on/off contrast to provide fantastic intrascene contrast in most scenes. From the very bright (>75% APL) to dark (5% APL).

It is only the very very dark scenes <3% APL ( because of the non-linearity of the HVS and the corresponding exponential darkening required and implemented by gamma) that require a display have extremely high on/off CR to properly view those kinds of scenes.

A page in high quality print magazine only has a contrast ratio of ~100:1. Very expensive high glossy print is only 300:1.
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post #133 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
Samsung has a 146" The Wall, Sony has a 220" C-LED which has better blacks than OLED. I am sure @ARROW-AV will be happy to sell you either.

I have a RS600 that with irises full closed gives >120K:1 at ~ 400 lumens. I have compared it side by side to my 77G7 OLED and it is not close as far as black level or intensity and variety of levels in the stars.

I am not sure why there is a misunderstanding on why high contrast is important. I am typing this on a Dell UP2715 which is an IPS monitor with ~1,000:1 CR. On the AVS page blacks look inky and whites bright and vivid. However if I tried to view a very very dark scene say < 2% APL then it will all go to hell.
@HoustonHoyaFan I had the exact same results with my RS600, 120,000:1, at the same time I had a Sony VW675 it measured 16,900:1 . Huge difference in numbers little noticed except for the few scenes where super low APL has a advantage. The vast majority of movies are not low APL, and not all low APL are the same, depending on the content the VW675 could render images much better . I kept the VW675 for what it did better, motion and detail , did not have the mosquito noise common with e-shift . The RS600 could render some low APL slightly better, the VW675 did a better job in the vast majority of content when all variables ( balance) are considered . The VW885 is pretty much in line with the VW675 for HD content, with HDR there is no contest , the VW885 has a much better balance for fades to black screen , nothing is better than off but I do believe some would even argue that.



The new VW985 is going to be interesting . Will it have the dynamic iris or not I wonder? @arrow stated he was informed by Sony that ALL new models coming would not have a dynamic iris, now saying it will have a dynamic iris. That was a big statement when it was made , the news now is quite a huge contradiction . Dual laser is rumored as is the improved ARC lens . Will it have a new chassis or could it possibly be the VW885 with dual laser in the same compact chassis ? I've read some speculating it could be 3000 lumens also rumored it could be 2200 . Remember , the VW885 was thought to have 2500 and the ARC lens from the same rumor mill , reality is ,you won't know until CEDIA . Bottom line, don't trust all the rumors no matter how accurate someone claims , it's all pure speculation, conjecture and a dab of truth mixed with some embellishment . Yea, simply rumors . All manufacturers keep a tight lid on features pre-CEDIA , only key employees have the details , nothing has changed.
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post #134 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Both 4k blu ray discs look great on my Lumagen Radiance Pro & VW5000ES!
Same on my RS4500. Black Panther looked great. Had a Prometheus / Alien: Covenant 4k double feature a couple weeks ago - man, those movies look stunning. Great to have friends over that have never seen them, after serving ribs......hee hee !
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post #135 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 02:45 PM
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Any idea if this one will retain the same case as the 760? That’s pretty important info for people without a dedicated room :-)
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post #136 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by hasta666 View Post
Any idea if this one will retain the same case as the 760? That’s pretty important info for people without a dedicated room :-)
Everything so far, and I really mean EVERYTHING, has been rumors so far. Best to wait for CEDIA for this kind of info.
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post #137 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 02:59 PM
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Any idea if this one will retain the same case as the 760? That’s pretty important info for people without a dedicated room :-)
The only projector that we know that Sony has on hand is the GTZ240 (announced in May) which is essentially a 760 with the lens from the 5000es.



https://twitter.com/sonydisplays/sta...900928?lang=en
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post #138 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 03:43 PM
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Any idea if this one will retain the same case as the 760? That’s pretty important info for people without a dedicated room :-)
@hasta666 Nothing confirmed , just a rumor it could be 2200 lumens , would suggest a smaller case is possible. The Pro version, VPL GTZ 240 is the VW760 with ARC lens, the VPL GTZ 280 became the VW5000 so who knows , they may just do the same . From my perspective it would not make any sense just to upgrade the lens , add a dual laser , activate the iris . The compact size of the VW760/885 is what made it so attractive for many over the other larger projectors . Requirements for cooling, noise control and mounting are additional considerations when dealing with a larger chassis . The RS4500 is double the weight of the VW750/885 at 86LB , VW5000 100LB . If it is the VW985 just happens to be the same chassis and 3000 lumens , it could end up at 2400 calibrated but without a filter remain HDR premium BT2020 . That would be upgrade worthy, at 2200 lumens I'd certainly pass. I cannot see it being 2200 in all honesty , the overlap would not make any sense .
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post #139 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
The only projector that we know that Sony has on hand is the GTZ240 (announced in May) which is essentially a 760 with the lens from the 5000es.



https://twitter.com/sonydisplays/sta...900928?lang=en

They did this with the VW5000 I believe, the GTZ280 is the commercial version . Could very well be the GTZ240 pro turns into the VW985 . Would a dual laser engine manifest into more lumens, could be. The smaller chassis would be easier to manage, fan speed most likely would have to increase in volume and noise/heat could be the byproduct.



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post #140 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 03:59 PM
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I think it sounds more reasonable that Sony will release two new models, one replacing the VW760 and the other replacing the VW5000. Partly because of the pricing that has been speculated here, it feels a bit strange if Sony only has one model selling for close to JVC Z1 price levels and thus reaches a very limited customer group. But also because of what was said earlier about the VW5000 and that their flagship model will miss these new rumored improvements, how will VW5000 owners feel about this?

It’s all speculation until we have some announcement soon but i really hope they will keep the current pricing for the VW760 if they decide to release more than one model. I am ready to upgrade my VW550 if they come out with something worth upgrading to and that doesn’t cost the price of a Z1. It’s not that i am dissatified with the VW550. On the contrary, i am still amazed with how good the image looks but as i’ve said before, a real push in contrast and black levels and possibly the addition of the better lens would likely make me want to upgrade. And switching to laser from lamp would also be nice

Here’s hoping for some good news at IFA.
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post #141 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
The new VW985 is going to be interesting . Will it have the dynamic iris or not I wonder? @arrow stated he was informed by Sony that ALL new models coming would not have a dynamic iris, now saying it will have a dynamic iris. That was a big statement when it was made , the news now is quite a huge contradiction . Dual laser is rumored as is the improved ARC lens . Will it have a new chassis or could it possibly be the VW885 with dual laser in the same compact chassis ? I've read some speculating it could be 3000 lumens also rumored it could be 2200 . Remember , the VW885 was thought to have 2500 and the ARC lens from the same rumor mill , reality is ,you won't know until CEDIA . Bottom line, don't trust all the rumors no matter how accurate someone claims , it's all pure speculation, conjecture and a dab of truth mixed with some embellishment . Yea, simply rumors . All manufacturers keep a tight lid on features pre-CEDIA , only key employees have the details , nothing has changed.
That's not what I said. If you go and read my posts properly you will note that what I actually reported was that that SONY informed me that they would not be enabling usage of the MECHANICAL (not dynamic) iris specifically with respect to the SONY 885/760ES via a firmware update, and that at the point in time there was no intention to include a usable MECHANICAL (not dynamic) iris with future laser projectors, because you can adjust the laser level to adjust the luminance. I was lobbying SONY to enable usage of the MECHANICAL (not dynamic) iris, that is already built into the SONY 885/760 but which is currently disabled, such that folks could close that down manually instead of reducing the laser level and thereby increase the sequential ON/OFF contrast performance, whereas lowering the laser level in fact reduces it. Neither SONY nor I was referring to a dynamic iris.

The new SONY 870/???ES has been reported by SONY to include a dynamic iris.

Consequently there is no "huge contradiction"


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post #142 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
They did this with the VW5000 I believe, the GTZ280 is the commercial version . Could very well be the GTZ240 pro turns into the VW985 . Would a dual laser engine manifest into more lumens, could be. The smaller chassis would be easier to manage, fan speed most likely would have to increase in volume and noise/heat could be the byproduct.
You keep referring to the new projector as the "VW985" is this information from SONY or are you simply guessing with respect to what will be the model number for the United States and Canada?
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post #143 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
Samsung has a 146" The Wall, Sony has a 220" C-LED which has better blacks than OLED. I am sure @ARROW-AV will be happy to sell you either.

I have a RS600 that with irises full closed gives >120K:1 at ~ 400 lumens. I have compared it side by side to my 77G7 OLED and it is not close as far as black level or intensity and variety of levels in the stars.

I am not sure why there is a misunderstanding on why high contrast is important. I am typing this on a Dell UP2715 which is an IPS monitor with ~1,000:1 CR. On the AVS page blacks look inky and whites bright and vivid. However if I tried to view a very very dark scene say < 2% APL then it will all go to hell.
If I could fit a 146" or 220" screen in my room, I wouldn't have a 135" screen now. So those options you gave above are worthless to me.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" ST130 G4 screen in batcave, htpc nvidia 1080ti madVR.
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post #144 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
They did this with the VW5000 I believe, the GTZ280 is the commercial version . Could very well be the GTZ240 pro turns into the VW985 . Would a dual laser engine manifest into more lumens, could be. The smaller chassis would be easier to manage, fan speed most likely would have to increase in volume and noise/heat could be the byproduct.


The GTZ270 is the same as the VW5000es. The GTZ280 is a $46K "entry" level 2,000 lumen platform that you can then over time purchase upgrades to turn it into a 270. IIRC there are 3 upgrades that are activated via software licenses.

I am very skeptical that Sony will be able to put dual (existing modules) lasers into the VW885 chassis. They are having a very difficult time getting dual modules into the VW500es' larger and liquid cooled chassis!

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post #145 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
The point I am making is that the projectors we are talking about all have more than enough on/off contrast to provide fantastic intrascene contrast in most scenes. From the very bright (>75% APL) to dark (5% APL).
I don't really agree with this, or I wouldn't have added an RS640 to my room when I already had a 675ES. The contrast difference is blatantly obvious almost all the time.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" ST130 G4 screen in batcave, htpc nvidia 1080ti madVR.
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post #146 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't really agree with this, or I wouldn't have added an RS640 to my room when I already had a 675ES. The contrast difference is blatantly obvious almost all the time.
If you see blatantly obvious contrast difference almost all the time then congratulations you have purchased the right projector for yourself. That is why we are all here, right.

To get back to your earlier complaint about VW885es owners, I hope that you will allow that owners of the RS4500, VW5000es, VW1100es, Barco Thor, VW885es, and others evaluated the RS600+ and came to the exact opposite conclusion!

To be clear, you are seeing blatently obvious contrast improvements on scenes like:





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post #147 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Have you seen The Greatest Showman? It's as good as it gets... Shot entirely on Arri Alexa digital cameras with resolution levels up to 6K, mastered using a 4K digital intermediate, and I don't think you will find many shots that are out of focus That's how all 4K movies should look!
.
Only had time to watch the first 20 mins of The Greatest Showman and it looks awesome!!! I almost couldn't stop watching it because of how good it looked. I had watched the 1080P version prior and the 4K version is a huge step up from what I remember.

As you said, all movies should look this good and hopefully in time they will
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post #148 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
If you see blatantly obvious contrast difference almost all the time then congratulations you have purchased the right projector for yourself. That is why we are all here, right.

To get back to your earlier complaint about VW885es owners, I hope that you will allow that owners of the RS4500, VW5000es, VW1100es, Barco Thor, VW885es, and others evaluated the RS600+ and came to the exact opposite conclusion!

To be clear, you are seeing blatently obvious contrast improvements on scenes like:





Probably not on those scenes, but I might fire up my 675es and 640 together and compare on oblivion later. I find the contrast difference in tons of TV shows I watch from the obvious like Expanse where the difference is really huge to shows like Elementary or such where there are scenes where you notice and others where you don't. The idea that the difference in contrast is only noticeable in occasional star field type scenes really is false. It's obvious in dynamic movies like Blade Runner 2049 where there are bright and dark scenes (although the sharpness of the 4K sony also shines in Blade runner).

Video: JVC RS4500 135" ST130 G4 screen in batcave, htpc nvidia 1080ti madVR.
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post #149 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 07:07 PM
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DUAL LASER does not automatically mean a red laser diode bank in addition to the standard blue ones. DPI has been offer Dual Laser 3 DMD projectors for years. And those are explicitely not using Red lasers. The first DPI laser phosphor projectors used two laser arrays, blue and blue with greenish yellow phosphor that was later filtered to green and red light. The user manual for the 27K Dual laser 4K insight projector claims it is all white light split into rgb, no specifics.

It may use red lasers, it may not. I guess we'll hear at the end of the month as Sony has its press conference during the IFA press days.
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post #150 of 1489 Old 08-15-2018, 08:35 PM
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I think we all have different thresholds for black level,but this post definitely echoes my feelings as well. With my content it is about 3-5% of the scenes where the black level on my VW 1100 is noticeably lacking. Even then I would say it is not poor but just average. I think the Sony 885 is a well balanced projector. The owners should definitely enjoy their units. None of these displays are perfect, so just pick what suits your needs and enjoy it to the fullest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
I get what he's saying tho. Contrast is important, but it's not all important. A good projector has a good balance.
The point I am making is that the projectors we are talking about all have more than enough on/off contrast to provide fantastic intrascene contrast in most scenes. From the very bright (>75% APL) to dark (5% APL).

It is only the very very dark scenes <3% APL ( because of the non-linearity of the HVS and the corresponding exponential darkening required and implemented by gamma) that require a display have extremely high on/off CR to properly view those kinds of scenes.

A page in high quality print magazine only has a contrast ratio of ~100:1. Very expensive high glossy print is only 300:1.
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