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post #1 of 34 Old 09-10-2018, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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IMAX Enhanced Announcement

https://www.imaxenhanced.com/announcement/

https://www.imaxenhanced.com/#faq

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post #2 of 34 Old 09-12-2018, 10:18 PM
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This was posted on the AVS Main Page. The ensuing thread goes heavy into the audio channels and how they're utilized.



I'd like to know more about the video side of thing. It still seems a little unclear on what exactly this IMAX Enhanced is and how it will fit into the current media platforms like streaming and UHD Blu-Ray.


https://www.avsforum.com/imax-enhanc...at-cedia-2018/
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post #3 of 34 Old 09-13-2018, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post
It still seems a little unclear on what exactly this IMAX Enhanced is and how it will fit into the current media platforms like streaming and UHD Blu-Ray.
When IMAX creates different versions of movies, they get shown in IMAX theatres for 2-3 weeks and then end up sitting on a shelf forever. The IMAX Enhanced program will allow them to finally monetize those dormant assets by releasing them on home video (in partnership with DTS).
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I'd like to know more about the video side of thing.
IMAX versions of movies can have longer running times, slightly different edits, variable aspect ratios, different colour timing and brightness. They also use their DMR (Digital Media Restoration) technology to de-noise or de-grain the picture (a 35mm frame blown up to an 8-story high screen has distracting grain) while trying to maintain as much detail as possible. For home video, the IMAX Enhanced program will use IMAX theatrical masters on 4K UHD discs (and possibly streaming) with HDR-10.
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post #4 of 34 Old 09-13-2018, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
When IMAX creates different versions of movies, they get shown in IMAX theatres for 2-3 weeks and then end up sitting on a shelf forever. The IMAX Enhanced program will allow them to finally monetize those dormant assets by releasing them on home video (in partnership with DTS). IMAX versions of movies can have longer running times, slightly different edits, variable aspect ratios, different colour timing and brightness. They also use their DMR (Digital Media Restoration) technology to de-noise or de-grain the picture (a 35mm frame blown up to an 8-story high screen has distracting grain) while trying to maintain as much detail as possible. For home video, the IMAX Enhanced program will use IMAX theatrical masters on 4K UHD discs (and possibly streaming) with HDR-10.
Will IMAX Enhanced discs use the IMAX theatrical sound mixes too?
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post #5 of 34 Old 09-14-2018, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Will IMAX Enhanced discs use the IMAX theatrical sound mixes too?
From what the rep said during the demo at CEDIA this year, yes they will!

It's great that they are finally getting into the home, IMAX's mixes have usually been solid.
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post #6 of 34 Old 09-14-2018, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mooderdxb View Post
From what the rep said during the demo at CEDIA this year, yes they will!

It's great that they are finally getting into the home, IMAX's mixes have usually been solid.
Awesome, thanks for the info.

However, if I am not mistaken, IMAX's new 12-channel sound that they use in their IMAX with Laser theaters is channel-based and not object-based. It is basically a 7.1.4 setup. If the sound is a channel-based 7.1.4 setup, will IMAX Enhanced discs use DTS:X for the sound or DTS-HD Master Audio (or some other variant)? I'm guessing they will use DTS:X? If they use DTS:X, will it be completely channel-based (i.e. not utilizing any objects)?
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post #7 of 34 Old 09-14-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Awesome, thanks for the info.

However, if I am not mistaken, IMAX's new 12-channel sound that they use in their IMAX with Laser theaters is channel-based and not object-based. It is basically a 7.1.4 setup. If the sound is a channel-based 7.1.4 setup, will IMAX Enhanced discs use DTS:X for the sound or DTS-HD Master Audio (or some other variant)? I'm guessing they will use DTS:X? If they use DTS:X, will it be completely channel-based (i.e. not utilizing any objects)?
Yup it's channel based.

When I entered the demo room I noticed the Marantz receiver in "IMAX Enhanced" mode. I'm positive that they are using a unique variant of DTS:X.

To add, in the 1.43:1 theatres there is a top 'Voice of God"/Height speaker mounted all the way at the top behind the screen.

He said since majority of home setups do not have that speaker that channel gets routed to the front two overhead channels instead. (You still have the option to have that channel used for a dedicated height speaker)
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post #8 of 34 Old 09-15-2018, 07:20 AM
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Nice find.

Any enhancement to audio or picture is always welcome.

I find that most discs are mixed and mastered with wildly different levels and dynamics, even within the same movie.
It's always noticeable when main actors get the good mics, and the other actor scenes use lower quality ones, for one example.

Or if a particular intro or action scene is mixed considerably hotter than the rest of the movie, it all has us scrambling for the remote, and riding the trims up and down to get the correct bass level.

I wish they'd all just tightly adhere to THX or this IMAX standard.
It will help prevent us from bottoming out our subs with jigowatts of power or sitting through the movie wondering where the bass is... etc

I'm not sure what variable aspect ratio means for home electronics.
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post #9 of 34 Old 09-15-2018, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I find that most discs are mixed and mastered with wildly different levels and dynamics, even within the same movie.
Most theatrical soundtracks also have their dynamics reduced slightly for release on home video. The IMAX Enhanced program is an opportunity to maintain the wide dynamic range heard in IMAX theatres.
Quote:
I'm not sure what variable aspect ratio means for home electronics.
You can see it in titles like The Dark Knight and Dunkirk, where the image changes aspect ratio from 2.31:1 to full screen during the movie.

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post #10 of 34 Old 09-15-2018, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooderdxb View Post
I'm positive that they are using a unique variant of DTS:X.
The bass management changes to better mimic what gets sent to the speakers & subs in IMAX theatres. Aside from that, it is standard DTS:X decoding.
Quote:
To add, in the 1.43:1 theatres there is a top 'Voice of God"/Height speaker mounted all the way at the top behind the screen.
IMAX Enhanced soundtracks will be typical DTS:X 7.1.4, except they will include an audio object to represent the high centre speaker in IMAX theatres. If older movies (that pre-date IMAX 12-channel) are released as part of the IMAX Enhanced program, then they will have IMAX 6-channel tracks (5 main channels plus high centre).
Quote:
He said since majority of home setups do not have that speaker that channel gets routed to the front two overhead channels instead.
As you said, the IMAX high centre speaker is high up behind the screen, not overhead (like where the DTS:X Front Height speakers are). As such, the additional object will be rendered using three speakers: left Front Height, right Front Height and Centre speaker. Using the Centre speaker will pull the phantom image downward, hopefully near the top of your screen, which is where the IMAX high centre would have been.

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post #11 of 34 Old 09-15-2018, 10:31 AM
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I guess it is possible, with an Altitude32, to have a high center speaker (like in IMAX theaters) for use with IMAX Enhanced discs?
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post #12 of 34 Old 09-15-2018, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
You can see it in titles like The Dark Knight and Dunkirk, where the image changes aspect ratio from 2.31:1 to full screen during the movie.

2.31:1 ... that's one I haven't heard of.
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post #13 of 34 Old 09-19-2018, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Most theatrical soundtracks also have their dynamics reduced slightly for release on home video. The IMAX Enhanced program is an opportunity to maintain the wide dynamic range heard in IMAX theatres. You can see it in titles like The Dark Knight and Dunkirk, where the image changes aspect ratio from 2.31:1 to full screen during the movie.
Definitely looking forward to it from an audio standpoint. Been longing for the day that IMAX would start pushing out their own mixes for home releases!

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The bass management changes to better mimic what gets sent to the speakers & subs in IMAX theatres. Aside from that, it is standard DTS:X decoding. IMAX Enhanced soundtracks will be typical DTS:X 7.1.4, except they will include an audio object to represent the high centre speaker in IMAX theatres. If older movies (that pre-date IMAX 12-channel) are released as part of the IMAX Enhanced program, then they will have IMAX 6-channel tracks (5 main channels plus high centre). As you said, the IMAX high centre speaker is high up behind the screen, not overhead (like where the DTS:X Front Height speakers are). As such, the additional object will be rendered using three speakers: left Front Height, right Front Height and Centre speaker. Using the Centre speaker will pull the phantom image downward, hopefully near the top of your screen, which is where the IMAX high centre would have been.
Awesome thanks for the detailed explanation!
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post #14 of 34 Old 09-19-2018, 05:46 AM
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Well, the proof will be in the pudding... I'll be impatiently waiting for the first "IMAX-enhanced" titles to be announced (and released). I'd love to see the 16x9/VAR IMAX versions of a film presentation available to consumers.
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post #15 of 34 Old 09-19-2018, 02:15 PM
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For a home theater, if you cannot place the high center speaker behind the screen (because the high center speaker would be too close a floor standing center speaker behind the screen due to a relatively small screen size), will it be okay to place the high center speaker just above the screen? Or, in such a situation, would it be best to forgo it altogether? This is a question for those who cannot have massive screens.
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post #16 of 34 Old 10-12-2018, 09:48 AM
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First titles announced, for release December 11th. These might also be the first releases to use HDR10+.

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post #17 of 34 Old 10-14-2018, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
...As you said, the IMAX high centre speaker is high up behind the screen, not overhead (like where the DTS:X Front Height speakers are). As such, the additional object will be rendered using three speakers: left Front Height, right Front Height and Centre speaker. Using the Centre speaker will pull the phantom image downward, hopefully near the top of your screen, which is where the IMAX high centre would have been.

I may have a use for the front heights I installed for the IIz/NeoX era yet. I never took them down when I installed 4 top overheads (upgraded to 6). One of the Trinnov speaker layout choices is a hybrid Atmos/Auro setup that has 4 tops, a VOG top and a center height, perhaps they could render to the center height if they decide to accommodate IMAX enhanced audio. I can't do the center ht position but certainly can use front hts/center.

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post #18 of 34 Old 10-16-2018, 05:07 AM
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I know this has been debated in the CIH thread. It looks like 16:9 is the "new" standard.
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post #19 of 34 Old 01-04-2019, 03:25 PM
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Reading the thread, I’m not 100% clear: if there is a physical CH speaker available in the layout, does enhanced iMax use it? Or is is phantomed because iMax Enhanced has the same 11ch limitation as DTS:X, so can’t handle a discrete CH in addition to the 7.1.4 main layout? I think it’s the latter but I’d like to be sure before writing it off. I have an X8500H. Thanks.

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post #20 of 34 Old 01-04-2019, 09:21 PM
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Anyone know where you can purchase these two titles?


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post #21 of 34 Old 01-05-2019, 09:48 AM
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I know this has been debated in the CIH thread. It looks like 16:9 is the "new" standard.
Yea, scope is dead.


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post #22 of 34 Old 01-05-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Yea, scope is dead.


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@Skylinestar

It’s not really debated there, as there is nothing to debate really. If you have IMAX enhanced imagery and produced in an IMAX AR then it is simple, you have to have a system of presentation that allows for it to be shown in an immersion level appropriate for IMAX content. That can’t happen within a CIH method of presentation.

The best you can do is what some of the members there do and they over shoot their screens and crop off the top and bottom of the IMAX content and watch it as if it was a “scope” version of the movie. Others feel they want the content so they reduce the image size down to CIH as a 1.85 or 16:9 frame. Watching enhanced IMAX as flat is quite under whelming IMO.

For it to be watched properly it requires a variable image presentation method and a CIH+IMAX sized screen. 4way masking then becomes a question.

The objection to CIH+IMAX has always been the limited number or motion pictures that demand IMAX presentation. The jury is still out on how well the public will welcome these new IMAX versions of movies. I think part of what held IMAX back until now was the lack of 4k or something better even. With 4k resolution I think they feel it is now a doable option to allow the public these immersion levels be it projection or flat panel.

That’s just my opinion and I could be wrong. Time will tell. It mostly depends on if you feel the IMAX1.85 framing is simply LieMAX and nothing but an open matte version of a scope movie that shouldn’t be shown, or do you feel a movie like Dunkirk is actually made better with the added immersion.

Bud
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post #23 of 34 Old 01-05-2019, 02:34 PM
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@Skylinestar

It’s not really debated there, as there is nothing to debate really. If you have IMAX enhanced imagery and produced in an IMAX AR then it is simple, you have to have a system of presentation that allows for it to be shown in an immersion level appropriate for IMAX content. That can’t happen within a CIH method of presentation.

The best you can do is what some of the members there do and they over shoot their screens and crop off the top and bottom of the IMAX content and watch it as if it was a “scope” version of the movie. Others feel they want the content so they reduce the image size down to CIH as a 1.85 or 16:9 frame. Watching enhanced IMAX as flat is quite under whelming IMO.

For it to be watched properly it requires a variable image presentation method and a CIH+IMAX sized screen. 4way masking then becomes a question.

The objection to CIH+IMAX has always been the limited number or motion pictures that demand IMAX presentation. The jury is still out on how well the public will welcome these new IMAX versions of movies. I think part of what held IMAX back until now was the lack of 4k or something better even. With 4k resolution I think they feel it is now a doable option to allow the public these immersion levels be it projection or flat panel.

That’s just my opinion and I could be wrong. Time will tell. It mostly depends on if you feel the IMAX1.85 framing is simply LieMAX and nothing but an open matte version of a scope movie that shouldn’t be shown, or do you feel a movie like Dunkirk is actually made better with the added immersion.

As I said , a sideshow of a sideshow. Not the new standard and won't be.

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post #24 of 34 Old 01-05-2019, 02:51 PM
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As I said , a sideshow of a sideshow. Not the new standard and won't be.

Art
They told the same thing to Henri Chretien and later Spyros Skouras and they didn’t listen ether.

Maybe IMAX won’t listen also.

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post #25 of 34 Old 01-06-2019, 05:29 AM
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Interesting set of articles in the January WSR edition.
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Interesting set of articles in the January WSR edition.
Interesting indeed, thought there is at least one page missing in the article.

I like that they try to keep the mix full-range, but I still don't understand why they release this without 13ch capable AVRs (such as my X8500H) able to handle the 12 discrete channels without having to phantom CH. I realize it's a small part of the market, but until they do this, I'd rather have a full range object-based atmos or DTS:X encoding, especially as apparently the original track is Atmos. Nothing would prevent them from doing a full-range mix using Atmos. They would likely get BETTER results than degrading an object based Atmos to a channel based 11+1 phantomed CH channel.

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post #27 of 34 Old 01-06-2019, 07:55 AM
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Interesting indeed, thought there is at least one page missing in the article.

I like that they try to keep the mix full-range, but I still don't understand why they release this without 13ch capable AVRs (such as my X8500H) able to handle the 12 discrete channels without having to phantom CH. I realize it's a small part of the market, but until they do this, I'd rather have a full range object-based atmos or DTS:X encodinkg, especially as apparently the original track is Atmos. Nothing would prevent them from doing a full-range mix using Atmos. They would likely get BETTER results than degrading an object based Atmos to a channel based 11+1 phantomed CH channel.
There are two articles, multiple pages each. A lot of their processing is on the video side, which is discussed and probability is more mature than their work with DTS. DTS has limited their technology to the initial immersive DSP chipsets, hopefully the expected channel increase will impact IMAX as well.
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post #28 of 34 Old 01-06-2019, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
There are two articles, multiple pages each. A lot of their processing is on the video side, which is discussed and probability is more mature than their work with DTS. DTS has limited their technology to the initial immersive DSP chipsets, hopefully the expected channel increase will impact IMAX as well.
I guess the question is: how to you access the next pages of each article then

Are these a teaser to get Widescreen Review?

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post #29 of 34 Old 01-06-2019, 09:38 AM
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IMO, IMAX made one crucial mistake and they made it in 1967. They produced too good of a product and way before its time. It has been 52 years that they set the high bar that they still are being forced to compete against.

We who are old enough all got to see it and although they weren’t Hollywood blockbusters they were short 45 minutes of pure perfection compared to anything else in the history of cinema. To this day IMAX is competing against that.

TV at home over that same time period has improved 1000 fold. Mainstream movie quality has made immense improvements but nothing coming close where IMAX was back then.

What it had going for it was also what was going against it. It was too good and too expensive to try and be anything other than a niche market. Movies that large and immersive need slow moving action, slow pans to keep the viewer focused on what they can handle without getting ill from the realism.

I think IMAX is still committed to doing something better than the rest both in their new theaters and retrofit theaters and now the home market, but they don’t get measured against what others are trying they are measured against their 50 year old film standard. They get called LieMax because it isn’t that.

Like I said the other day it wasn’t that they didn’t want to go into the home market. They tried in the days of DVD. I have dozens of the 1.43:1 / 45 minute originals I used to play huge on an XGA projector. It wasn’t IMAX but given the rest of the tech then it was pretty impressive despite the poor resolution. We live now in a 16:9 world not 4:3 at home so you can’t blame IMAX for fitting their product into the canister provided.

The big difference now is IMAX 1.89 fills our vision as a scope movie would only with more material above and below to add in a bit of realism by filling our vision fuller. With this format they can shoot the fast action stuff and Hollywood seems to be buying into the format. The new digital cameras are not up to 70mm quality but they are gaining on it. The cost is competitive as they make the scope version at the same time they make the IMAX 1.89.

If they have an edge in the home market it will be 99.9% of people buying home media have fixed 16:9 AR TVs and don’t really care for black bars as long as there is more image not cropped image. As for the front projection minority they will have to figure out a way to deal with it if they have scope theaters. I think the simplest way is matching your projector AR to a screen with the same AR and then adopting a presentation that allows IMAX its proper immersion. Something TV folks can’t do unless they move their seats.
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post #30 of 34 Old 01-06-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
DTS has limited their technology to the initial immersive DSP chipsets, hopefully the expected channel increase will impact IMAX as well.
Channel increase will have no impact on IMAX Enhanced soundtracks, which top out at 11.1 channels (7.1.4) plus one object. The one object carries the upper centre channel info of IMAX 12-channel soundtracks and is reproduced by a speaker near the top of an IMAX screen. Even if all 30 DTS:X speaker locations were to be activated, it wouldn't matter because neither DTS:X nor Atmos have a speaker location at the top of the screen, so the upper centre IMAX channel will always be reproduced as a phantom image. That won't change when DTS goes past its 11.1 speaker limit because full reproduction of IMAX Enhanced soundtracks only requires a 7.1.4 set-up.
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