Best acoustic transp. screen for Sony VPL995ES - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 86 Old 09-28-2018, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Best acoustic transp. screen for Sony VPL995ES

I'm planning to buy both a new PJ and a suitable screen. Projector will either be the Sony VPL-870ES/VPL-VW995 laser, or the new JVC 8K E-shift (non laser).

Screen has to be acoustic transparent (I want to put speakers and subs behind it), in 2.40:1 format, with sidemasking to 1.78:1 and will have a screen width of 129" (diameter is 139"). Seating distance: 110" (so rather close)

My question is: should I opt for a woven AT screen or a perforated screen? My choice for a woven screen would Seymour Screen Excellence. If I'd go the perforated route, I'd go for Stewart StudioTek 100.

Note: I am planning to add a Panamorph lens to get a bit more light

Looking forward to your comments, gentlemen!
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post #2 of 86 Old 09-28-2018, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
I'm planning to buy both a new PJ and a suitable screen. Projector will either be the Sony VPL-870ES/VPL-VW995 laser, or the new JVC 8K E-shift (non laser).

Screen has to be acoustic transparent (I want to put speakers and subs behind it), in 2.40:1 format, with sidemasking to 1.78:1 and will have a screen width of 129" (diameter is 139"). Seating distance: 110" (so rather close)

My question is: should I opt for a woven AT screen or a perforated screen? My choice for a woven screen would Seymour Screen Excellence. If I'd go the perforated route, I'd go for Stewart StudioTek 100.

Note: I am planning to add a Panamorph lens to get a bit more light

Looking forward to your comments, gentlemen!
I have been using the Seymour/Screen Excellence EN4k for 2 years with my 4k sony projector (500es) in a motorized screen system. It does lose some light (like all AT screens will) but the weave is very hard to see even close up and the picture quality is high. From your seating distance, you would not to see the weave even on a bright white pattern. it does pass sound well but i have not actually tested how much impact it has.

i have the side masking system as you describe. if you use a motorized system, i will tell you, these are built like a tank.
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post #3 of 86 Old 09-28-2018, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
I'm planning to buy both a new PJ and a suitable screen. Projector will either be the Sony VPL-870ES/VPL-VW995 laser, or the new JVC 8K E-shift (non laser).

Screen has to be acoustic transparent (I want to put speakers and subs behind it), in 2.40:1 format, with sidemasking to 1.78:1 and will have a screen width of 129" (diameter is 139"). Seating distance: 110" (so rather close)

My question is: should I opt for a woven AT screen or a perforated screen? My choice for a woven screen would Seymour Screen Excellence. If I'd go the perforated route, I'd go for Stewart StudioTek 100.

Note: I am planning to add a Panamorph lens to get a bit more light

Looking forward to your comments, gentlemen!
110" is too close for viewing microperf. Also ST100 microperf is only 0.9 gain, so no big advantage with brightness. You would have to go to ST130 microperf to get 1.17 gain. I have used several of the woven AT fabrics. The best that I have seen is Screen Excellence NEO and Screen Acoustics V6. I used to use Screen Excellence EN4K, but now I use Screen Acoustics V6. EN4K has some shimmer in bright white scenes. I have 9' wide screen and viewing from around 110".
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post #4 of 86 Old 09-28-2018, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
I'm planning to buy both a new PJ and a suitable screen. Projector will either be the Sony VPL-870ES/VPL-VW995 laser, or the new JVC 8K E-shift (non laser).

Screen has to be acoustic transparent (I want to put speakers and subs behind it), in 2.40:1 format, with sidemasking to 1.78:1 and will have a screen width of 129" (diameter is 139"). Seating distance: 110" (so rather close)

My question is: should I opt for a woven AT screen or a perforated screen? My choice for a woven screen would Seymour Screen Excellence. If I'd go the perforated route, I'd go for Stewart StudioTek 100.

Note: I am planning to add a Panamorph lens to get a bit more light

Looking forward to your comments, gentlemen!

Has a little to do with your light expectations. Just real rough you are going to get less than 25fL that is really a nice amount of light for SDR but not so much for HDR so Stewart Snowmatte will give you a bit more and if you are OK with a little directionality Studiotech 130 still more yet compared to the Seymour weave.


Just something to consider.
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post #5 of 86 Old 09-28-2018, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Has a little to do with your light expectations. Just real rough you are going to get less than 25fL that is really a nice amount of light for SDR but not so much for HDR so Stewart Snowmatte will give you a bit more and if you are OK with a little directionality Studiotech 130 still more yet compared to the Seymour weave.


Just something to consider.
Snomatte microperf is lower gain than XD. XD is 0.98 and Snomatte microperf is 0.90.
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post #6 of 86 Old 09-28-2018, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Snomatte microperf is lower gain than XD. XD is 0.98 and Snomatte microperf is 0.90.

My mistake it was my understanding that the Seymour was about .8.


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post #7 of 86 Old 09-29-2018, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilmanmojo View Post
I have been using the Seymour/Screen Excellence EN4k for 2 years with my 4k sony projector (500es) in a motorized screen system. It does lose some light (like all AT screens will) but the weave is very hard to see even close up and the picture quality is high. From your seating distance, you would not to see the weave even on a bright white pattern. it does pass sound well but i have not actually tested how much impact it has.

i have the side masking system as you describe. if you use a motorized system, i will tell you, these are built like a tank.
How big is your screen?

Good to know that the quality of the Seymour/Screen Excellence masking is okay!
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post #8 of 86 Old 09-29-2018, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
110" is too close for viewing microperf. Also ST100 microperf is only 0.9 gain, so no big advantage with brightness. You would have to go to ST130 microperf to get 1.17 gain. I have used several of the woven AT fabrics. The best that I have seen is Screen Excellence NEO and Screen Acoustics V6. I used to use Screen Excellence EN4K, but now I use Screen Acoustics V6. EN4K has some shimmer in bright white scenes. I have 9' wide screen and viewing from around 110".
Thanks for your input!

Which distance would be the minimum in order to view a microperf screen?

Concerning microperf ST130, I was told that the higher gain screens could be problematic when used with laser PJ's.
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post #9 of 86 Old 09-29-2018, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Snomatte microperf is lower gain than XD. XD is 0.98 and Snomatte microperf is 0.90.
Are these the manufacturers specs? Not sure whether these are true 'real world' specs.

Still: thanks for the input!
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post #10 of 86 Old 09-29-2018, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Thanks for your input!

Which distance would be the minimum in order to view a microperf screen?

Concerning microperf ST130, I was told that the higher gain screens could be problematic when used with laser PJ's.
I wouldn't want to move any further back or you're going to lose the benefits of moving to the 4K in the first place. I find this discussion interesting.
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post #11 of 86 Old 09-29-2018, 01:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't want to move any further back or you're going to lose the benefits of moving to the 4K in the first place. I find this discussion interesting.
I agree about the viewing distance. I plan to have a field of view of around 60° (for 2.40:1 material).
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post #12 of 86 Old 09-29-2018, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post

Which distance would be the minimum in order to view a microperf screen?

Concerning microperf ST130, I was told that the higher gain screens could be problematic when used with laser PJ's.

I'd get samples of each. The manufacturers seem to be pretty good about it. I find with 20/20 I can see perfs in very uniform bright material at about 9', I sit 11' back.


I use 130 with my Sony 5000 stack right now. I can attest that it is not in any way problematic with my set up. I've thought about going to ST 100/ Snowmatte but have just put it off since I have a difficult time ever wanting to reduce fL.


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post #13 of 86 Old 09-30-2018, 01:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
I'd get samples of each. The manufacturers seem to be pretty good about it. I find with 20/20 I can see perfs in very uniform bright material at about 9', I sit 11' back.


I use 130 with my Sony 5000 stack right now. I can attest that it is not in any way problematic with my set up. I've thought about going to ST 100/ Snowmatte but have just put it off since I have a difficult time ever wanting to reduce fL.


Art
In another thread thebland mentioned that it was tricky to use higher gain screens (> 1) with laser PJ, as this could cause some kind of shimmering. I'm not sure where he got this info.

Good to know that you have no problems, though!
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post #14 of 86 Old 09-30-2018, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
How big is your screen?
[I][I]

Good to know that the quality of the Seymour/Screen Excellence masking is okay!

My screen is 100 inches wide (2.35 format) with the masking cutting down to wide screen
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post #15 of 86 Old 09-30-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
In another thread thebland mentioned that it was tricky to use higher gain screens (> 1) with laser PJ, as this could cause some kind of shimmering. I'm not sure where he got this info.

Good to know that you have no problems, though!

Shimmer is real when you use a laser projector and positive gain material , to be honest I even see it on unity gain it's just much less obvious . Mostly only noticed with snow or clouds in really bright scenes , it's not drastic .
Using the VW885/995 on a 139" 2.40:1 and any AT material is going to be a tall order in my honest opinion . Even with the DCR Panamorph and good tone mapping the results will be minimal HDR at best .
I'm running a VW885 with ISCO IIIL on a 132" 2.35:1 the material is about 1.5 gain ( Draper XT1800) . I have plenty for HDR actually run only 75% laser . I have calculated that I can go 140", but only with a ST130 or similar with no less than 1.3 gain , would have to run closer to 90% for the same level HDR . AT material will be around 30% less brightness . I had one friend with a 135", AT screen combined with the VW885 he thought it was minimum for HDR . Actually , I don't think he had the A-lens or Lumagen, that didn't help either .

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post #16 of 86 Old 09-30-2018, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Shimmer is real when you use a laser projector and positive gain material , to be honest I even see it on unity gain it's just much less obvious . Mostly only noticed with snow or clouds in really bright scenes , it's not drastic .
Using the VW885/995 on a 139" 2.40:1 and any AT material is going to be a tall order in my honest opinion . Even with the DCR Panamorph and good tone mapping the results will be minimal HDR at best .
I'm running a VW885 with ISCO IIIL on a 132" 2.35:1 the material is about 1.5 gain ( Draper XT1800) . I have plenty for HDR actually run only 75% laser . I have calculated that I can go 140", but only with a ST130 or similar with no less than 1.3 gain , would have to run closer to 90% for the same level HDR . AT material will be around 30% less brightness . I had one friend with a 135", AT screen combined with the VW885 he thought it was minimum for HDR . Actually , I don't think he had the A-lens or Lumagen, that didn't help either .

I will call it something different "sparklies". Stewart 130 , the coating can show this very very rarely and not uniformly all over the screen. This ,however, isn't related to the laser illumination particularly it occurs equally with high light output Xenon. You will simply not see a laser shimmering on the Stewart material having a 1.2 net gain
I agree regarding HDR you will be getting a wash in PQ compared to SDR as I saw wit one 5000 on a 16' wide screen. Only after stacking did I see a real HDR superiority when viewing the same material compared to SDR.

Last edited by Art Sonneborn; 09-30-2018 at 05:24 PM.
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post #17 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 03:38 AM
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Blue (+phosphor) laser does not produce speckle in its own regards, that is an issue for pure RGB lasers such as the Barco Thor. We recently had a client in Germany (w.mayer) with a Barco Thor 6p (RGB x2) that replaced his Harkness matte white screen with one of ours (ultraweave v6 ‘XXL’, 3x7,5m) and managed to rid speckle in doing so. That said, I am under the clear opinion ST130 does produce some amount of glare, but at 1,17 gain (perforated), it might be an acceptable tradeoff. What I might be a bit more uncertain of, is whether the drop in AT is worth it using a high end audio system, but I am probably not the most objective in such regards anyhow...


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post #18 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 04:04 AM
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I will call it something different "sparklies". Stewart 130 , the coating can show this very very rarely and not uniformly all over the screen. This ,however, isn't related to the laser illumination particularly it occurs equally with high light output Xenon. You will simply not see a laser shimmering on the Stewart material having a 1.2 net gain
I agree regarding HDR you will be getting a wash in PQ compared to SDR as I saw wit one 5000 on a 16' wide screen. Only after stacking did I see a real HDR superiority when viewing the same material compared to SDR.

Sparklies has always been there for higher gain materials, even with lamp based projectors on higher gain material . The phenomenon ( shimmer) I am referring to also has a component of colors (RGB) as sparklies. What I'm seeing is different from what has been called sparklies , it's unique to laser phosphor and so far all with laser have noticed this . I agree it's certainly not drastic nor distracting as it's only really significant in content that is super bright and white . It's insignificant enough that those who choose the advantage of a little gain over this artifact do so without hesitation and by some very critical enthusiasts .

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post #19 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
it's unique to laser phosphor and so far all with laser have noticed this .

Well you can take out the "all" at least .Over two and half years it doesn't occur here with the Stewart 130 and The Sony 5000.


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post #20 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 05:55 AM
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It's more of what I would call texture showing on the 130 screen with my Sony 5000, when I switched to 100 it was a very dramatic improvement to my eyes.
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post #21 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 06:19 AM
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It's more of what I would call texture showing on the 130 screen with my Sony 5000, when I switched to 100 it was a very dramatic improvement to my eyes.
I am with Lon - used the 5000 with a Studiotek 130 AT (Cinecurve) for 8 months before changing to ST 100 AT - huge gain in picture purity and I could see speckles in the 130 all the time.
The speckles are more pronounced when you sit at an angle such as an exterior seat position.
If by any chance you have 'ANY' little imperfection on the 130 for example crease at the edge - it will speckle like much more from certain angles.
Before moving to the ST 100 I was considering Peter's proposed screen with oscillators to avoid speckles as I saw too many on the 130 - glad I did not do that and went with the ST100.
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I agree with Lon and Ash but the texture of the 130 isn't peculiar to laser phosphor. I also agree with them in that the 100 is a reference surface the 130 is not. The speckles that Lygren discussed is inherent to RGB laser projection and Wolfgang has changed out his screen material on his massive 23' screen very recently to ameliorate this issue.


My problem is I find light to be like a drug... I just don't want to give it up. I say "tomorrow I'll stop I can quit anytime I want".


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post #23 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 06:37 AM
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It's more of what I would call texture showing on the 130 screen with my Sony 5000, when I switched to 100 it was a very dramatic improvement to my eyes.

Lasers do something different on the screen than lamp, the higher the gain the more this is obvious . I compared 1.5 gain , 1.3 , 1.0 and .8 gain materials . All show the same phenomenon, lower gain just nearly impossible to see from a distance . Up close to the screen I can still see the shimmer on 1.0 gain , at any distance it's not visible. The higher the gain the further back it's seen , it's just the way this seems to work. I've spoken to others with the VW5000 and ST130 , they are describing the same condition on screen that I see , pretty sure this is unique to many projectors with laser light engines . Sparklies has always been there with higher gain materials with any light engine . This shimmer is a new issue that appears to be unique to laser light , has not been really discussed in detail , probably should be looked at closer at some point .



ST100 is my screen of choice, I may have to settle on the ST130 though just to get the advantage the extra light it provides, going smaller is not an option. I'm considering AT materials as well, if I find this acceptable I'll buy the projector that provides sufficient brightness on the size I choose, if not , a higher gain is the only option with projectors that are available combined with the screen size I have chosen .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Thanks for your input!

Which distance would be the minimum in order to view a microperf screen?

Concerning microperf ST130, I was told that the higher gain screens could be problematic when used with laser PJ's.
12' is what I consider the minimum. Even then, some people will still be able to see the microperf in the right conditions. Higher gain screens have more artifacts. Does not matter if talking laser or lamp based. ST130 has more sparkle than ST100. But slightly more sparkle beats having an image that is too dim. So if you can't light up the size screen you want, when using a 1.0 gain screen, then a little gain is required.
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post #25 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Are these the manufacturers specs? Not sure whether these are true 'real world' specs.

Still: thanks for the input!
With Stewart, manufacturers spec is real world gain. The XD real world gain has been measured at 0.98.
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post #26 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
In another thread thebland mentioned that it was tricky to use higher gain screens (> 1) with laser PJ, as this could cause some kind of shimmering. I'm not sure where he got this info.

Good to know that you have no problems, though!
Has to do with brightness. For example you might not see much sparkle on ST130 at 16FL, but at 30FL it will stand out more.
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post #27 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
It's more of what I would call texture showing on the 130 screen with my Sony 5000, when I switched to 100 it was a very dramatic improvement to my eyes.
The shimmer or sparkle does look like texture. You can also get this same effect with lower gain materials. With HDR over 30FL, I saw this on EN4K, bur not on Screen Acoustics V6. Both those materials are under 1.0 gain.

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post #28 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Shimmer is real when you use a laser projector and positive gain material , to be honest I even see it on unity gain it's just much less obvious . Mostly only noticed with snow or clouds in really bright scenes , it's not drastic .
Using the VW885/995 on a 139" 2.40:1 and any AT material is going to be a tall order in my honest opinion . Even with the DCR Panamorph and good tone mapping the results will be minimal HDR at best .
I'm running a VW885 with ISCO IIIL on a 132" 2.35:1 the material is about 1.5 gain ( Draper XT1800) . I have plenty for HDR actually run only 75% laser . I have calculated that I can go 140", but only with a ST130 or similar with no less than 1.3 gain , would have to run closer to 90% for the same level HDR . AT material will be around 30% less brightness . I had one friend with a 135", AT screen combined with the VW885 he thought it was minimum for HDR . Actually , I don't think he had the A-lens or Lumagen, that didn't help either .
Thanks for your valuable input. So if I get this right, I have four options:


1-Say hello to AT, in order to get more gain (1 or even 1.3)
-> I really believe that an AT set-up is 'better' (like: more real, more natural sounding) than a non AT set-up. Especially when using high-end processing like Trinnov, or Synthesis SDP-75, so I'm not ready to let go AT;-)

2-Go for a smaller screen.
->My angle of view with the 139" diagonal 2.40:1 screen will be around 60°, which is - I think - perfect for 4K. It also allows me to put front L and R speakers wide enough (but still behind the screen) apart from each other, so I really want to keep the size of the screen

3-Invest in a more powerful PJ, like Sony 5000
-> Good idea, but my budget won't allow it...

4-Say goodbye (or at least partially) to HDR
-> My current setup doesn't do HDR, so maybe I won't miss it;-)
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post #29 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lygren View Post
What I might be a bit more uncertain of, is whether the drop in AT is worth it using a high end audio system, but I am probably not the most objective in such regards anyhow...


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Hi Lygren,

Could you please elaborate? I am indeed planning to use a high-end audio system behind the screen (JBL Synthesis, Alcons or Wisdom);-)
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post #30 of 86 Old 10-01-2018, 09:53 AM
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Microperf AT screens do not pass the audio as well as a good woven AT screen. Also you need more distance between the speaker and the back of the screen with a microperf screen. Best if you can have 8" to 12" minimum space. Also you do not want to toe your speakers in, when used behind a microperf screen.
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